WWIIOL, Something that has always impressed, and made me question.

[Mrbloodworth]

DEV CHAT
Battleground Europe has arguably the most advanced and accurate damage model used in gaming. Research , historical data and a sophisticated physics programming are the foundations of this model. These are coupled with accurate ballistics modeling resulting in realistic and immersive gameplay. Producer and Game Manager Geof "DOC" Evans provides a brief explanation in a damage model video:

The damage model. A lot of games simplify this for a number of reasons. While the damage model for WWIIOL has always made me go "Wow, god dam", it has also always made me ask..."but, while playing, does anyone really care? Its not like we see it...."

Not to mention, this is all server side computations here.....(AFAIK) Is this kind of detail really a selling point?

EDIT: its not just the damage model....

Our infantry simulation
uses a life like trauma system that monitors blood pressure and level, brain oxygen
and adenosine triphosphate levels to calculate your health. While we do play around
a bit with your ATP levels, like how long you can sprint and how fast you run,
these are all generally based on a very fit, but ultimately realistic human being.

[WayAbvPar]

While we do play around
a bit with your ATP levels, like how long you can sprint and how fast you run,
these are all generally based on a very fit, but ultimately realistic human being...represented by a stick figure on screen

All that effort to get it realistic. They needed a fun director to help balance things.

[damijin]

When your entire player base is a niche of extreme history buffs and realism enthusiasts, you better damn well get it right so they can ignore the rest of the glaring flaws and continue playing your clunky war simulator.

[Nebu]

These things help distract them from the fact that it just took 20 keystrokes to aim and shoot a rifle. 

[Mrbloodworth]

Ya know, I assume its the systems like this that sucks up all the performance in that game.... It dam sure isn't the single plane/alpha walls for buildings....

I really enjoy a lot of the concepts of the game (supply lines, front lines, Territory control, many modes of play), but i still question if the "Simulation" has gone to far, and if it wouldn't be a better game all around if they toned it down. I can only imagine all the computations and whatnot the server has to go through to generate what really amounts to a negligible feedback to the user (If any at all, not like you can see shells bouncing around inside hitting poor Ryan in the shoulder fifty times at 23.98 degrees...).

I guess the main thing i have been thinking about is: Does the high level of "simulation" bring what could be a highly accessible game down, and would the die hards really be upset if it was toned down?

[Big Gulp]

and would the die hards really be upset if it was toned down?

For that matter, are the diehards really worth worrying about?  I'd gladly trade the number of simple shooter fans COD4 has for all the grognards that WW2O has.  At a certain point you're just providing fan service for the miniscule number of people out there who know the thickness of a Tiger tank's armor.

[Comstar]

Don't even get me started on the question of does the Panzerkampfwagen Mark III H with the 50mm Cannon comes with a 30mm plus 30mm Front turret Manlent or a single 50mm armur plate and if the main gun rotor counts as armour or not.  That argument is still going on, and no one on the planet can give a definitive answer still.

The armour penetration stats in WW2OL go to 3 decimal places and most shells explode into 50 different pieces that are all individually tracked for vector, velocity and energy. I'm pretty sure the rats admitted they went a little overboard in the original design.

And here's the other thing you just don't get in any other game (except Eve I guess). After five weeks of warfare, with the front going back and forth the German position suffered a setback when their key airfield at Bertrix fell. Here's what happened over the next 48 hours or so.

Essentially after Bertrix fell, Allied P1 was made to be Sedan. 1pzd was unnecessarily overstretched from Stenay to Bouillon in an attempt to "stack" Wellin and cut off the Allied div in Bertrix. The stacking was around about 2 whole divisions.

Sedan fell just as the Axis finally decided to contract 1pzd by moving 1pzkg1 from Bouillon, but it was too late, and supply never trickled in before the final AB was capped. 1pzkg1 bounced back to Bouillon and 1pzkg2 bounced to Mouzon, thus splitting the division.

P1 after this for the Allies switched to Bouillon to route 1pzkg1. In the mean time, Gedinne was being held as the Allies rotated supply through Gedinne to the tune of an extra division that had been rotated down from the North. The Axis did not make hay of the weakened area and pulled their St. Truiden attack, thus saving 14e Regiment from the training grounds (its division was in training for another 4 hours).

Bouillon fell 90 minutes after Sedan, and the Gedinne area was more secure with a second supply link created through Sedan. P1 was subsequently Mouzon, which contained the attrited 1pzkg2. Here is another axis error however. Instead of falling back out of Mouzon, which would have enabled them to move 1pzkg2 of the lines for a rest in 15 minutes, they decided to move out manually, thus lumping 1pzkg2 with its division for 1 hour. This meant that when Carignan finally fell another hour later (the division was moved back to Orval almost immediately), the Axis timers were unable to cover Montmedy and hold the integrity of 1pzd's overall positioning.

It should be said that the Axis continued to attack Gedinne heavily throughout this time, despite it no longer being the cut off point for the Bertrix division and indeed would have actually resulted in moving Axis units the wrong direction from the breakthrough.

Allied P1 after this was Orval, and with the division on a timer and the 1pzkg2 unable to move into Montmedy as the linking CPs were capped, the Allies captured the Virton CP in Orval, thus trapping the division. The division was thus attrited and bounced 3 hours and 30 minutes after the original break at Sedan.

At this time the operational situation for the Axis looked rather bleak. With no sign of moving the lines southwards from Liege (where there was a spare KG), or from Wellin which was still unnecessarily stacked, there was a hole in the lines from Wellin down to Dun. It was not until 5 hours after the original breakthrough at Sedan that 2pzd was finally moved south, however this too simply joined the stack at Wellin rather than redeploy around to Bastogne.

Additionally, the final coup de grace was delivered when an utterly bizarre and questionable move was made, where 27id was moved west into Sechault, and then onto Vouziers, whilst 4pzd was moved west into Givet. The rationale here I'm not too sure of... perhaps there was a belief they could cut off the Sedan breakthrough? In any case, with 1pzd off map and 27ID exposing its flank to softcaps, British 1st Infantry Division drove south through Etain and cut 27ID off.

At this time a race to Sedan enveloped where the stacked Wellin brigades put pressure on Bouillon with its eventual capture by the Axis, and 27ID moved up to Sedan. 1re Division d'Infanterie Motorisee which was originally deployed from Grandpre to Stenay raced north to shadow 27ID and beat them to Sedan, ensuring the cut off.

After the entrapment of 27ID was secured and progress was made to its routing, 1st Infantry Division continued east to Luxembourg, where it was beaten by a returning 1pzd which deployed in Martelange. It must be stressed that at no point from the breakthrough at Gedinne to the redeployment of 1pzd that the stacked Wellin divisions continued to remain in that general area and none were moved east of St. Hubert until a full 24 hours after the original breakthrough at Gedinne. 1pzd was yet again overstretched, and a para raid on the Luxembourg bunkers resulted in a second routing of 1pzd. The remaining brigades of 1pzd, very limited in movement due to the routing of its division, found itself trapped in Tuntange by timers and 1pzkg1 stuck in Evrange, and were also routed.

In the mean time, far too late to influence the fall of Wiltz or the overstretch of 1pzd, 4pzd entered the Manhay - Stavelot area, but again was too late to reach Hallschlag and that too fell to the Allies. The race to outflank 4pzd was thus won, and 1st Infantry Division along with 4e Group de Reconaissance and 2e Division Nord-Africaine worked to move north before the return of 1pzd, 17id (which was routed from Wellin in the interim) and 27id. It made it to Remagen, where upon the Axis division returned from the training grounds and stalemated the situation.

This was until the third breakthrough which occured resulting in the pocketing of the Western Axis forces and the capture of Dusseldorf and Monchen Gladbach. I'm not sure how the breakin was enforced for the third manoeuvre, however again the Axis did not make moves to protect Dusseldorf or the buffering of their remaining on map airfields.

Hope this explains it somewhat, it's a bit sketchy in parts but hey, I don't play 24/7

[Ratman_tf]

How can any WW2 game be considered authentic without Sturmmecha?

[Der Helm]

Stop it guys, you make me want to play this game ...

[Mrbloodworth]

I'm not clear if Comstar is trying to answer my questions.

[Comstar]

While the damage model for WWIIOL has always made me go "Wow, god dam", it has also always made me ask..."but, while playing, does anyone really care? Its not like we see it...."

During the playing...it can. If you know the Panzer IV has a weak spot on it's back left side above the sprocket because that's where the fuel tank is and hence hitting that part of the tank will cause it to brew up...yes, it can.

If you don't *care* about that level of detail and just shoot stuff till it blows up or you die, then no, you probably won't care that the Sherman needs to be within 800 feet of the frontal armour of a Tiger to get a chance at killing it (because the 75mm AT round of the Sherman does not have enough *energy* to penetrate the Tigers armour). If you don't mind that in battlefield 1942 shooting a Tank 6 times with the AT gun will kill it, no matter what direction it's facing, where you actually hit or the range you're at, then no, you won't care about the level of detail in WW2OL.

It *does* add to the immserviness though. That Tiger on the hill firing into town is not just the biggest baddest guy on the battlefield because he's got a +20 strength Longbow he bought from IGE. It's because he's got a 88mm quick firing cannon with x5 Optics, 80mm of Frontal armour and can go at 55km/h over rough terrain. Spitfire's turn inside 109's not because the game says they have higher skill in agility from being 10 levels higher but because their turning circle is derived from it's speed, drag, angle of attack and energy level. The allies won the last map not because they outnumbered the enemy (it was very even right up to the german point of collapse) but because the strategy and operational battlefield *skills* of the allied high command and the mistakes of the GHC, not the fact they have a Titan able to massacre 100's of other players in one shot.

Not to mention, this is all server side computations here.....(AFAIK) Is this kind of detail really a selling point?

It could be, but the Rats have never really...marketed as much as they could, though the video you posted is a example of it. 'Corse it can also scare people off ("What do you mean I can't just click auto attack and win because I've spent 26 days more catassing that the other guy has!"). As the current tiny market for Flight Sims and Wargames shows (and for that matter, space sims that require a joystick!) most game players would rather fly an aircraft in Battlefield 2 than Falcon 4.0. If you like the level of detail and realism in Falcon 4.0, WW2OL should interest you.  If you'd rather just press F1 to F8 and auto orbit a target at 120km from the target in your internets spaceships while you lasers look nice, then the realism and background detail is not going to be a selling point.

[Big Gulp]

If you'd rather just press F1 to F8 and auto orbit a target at 120km from the target in your internets spaceships while you lasers look nice, then the realism and background detail is not going to be a selling point.

God forbid that I should ever defend Eve, but were I you I'd refrain from playing the compare and constrast game with WWIIO and Eve.  One team is competent, the other is not.  One team actually has artists, the other not so much.  One team created a game with with a working economy and an actual, chock full of consequences war.

Eve definitely isn't my kind of game, but if someone put a gun to my head and said, "Choose!" it'd take me all of a nanosecond to pick the game I'd be stuck playing.

[naum]

I must confess, reading Comstar's posts makes me want to play WWIIO…

[Big Gulp]

I must confess, reading Comstar's posts makes me want to play WWIIO…

Hey, give it a free trial.  We'll wait for you to come back and report on it's goodness.   

[naum]

I must confess, reading Comstar's posts makes me want to play WWIIO…

Hey, give it a free trial.  We'll wait for you to come back and report on it's goodness.   

DL'ing now…

[Samwise]

TAXI TO VICTORY!

[naum]

TAXI TO VICTORY!

Eh, not sure if I can commit to a new electronic friend…

[Jimbo]

WWIIOnline had great vehicle combat (tanks, planes, and ships), felt the infantry was kinda wierd, but better than Planetside.  I guess the best test would be to download all three and give it whirl on them all in their current state.

[Comstar]

God forbid that I should ever defend Eve, but were I you I'd refrain from playing the compare and constrast game with WWIIO and Eve.  One team is competent, the other is not.  One team actually has artists, the other not so much.  One team created a game with with a working economy and an actual, chock full of consequences war.

Oh, WW2OL has it's flaws. Big ones. The original question was does the accuracy and detail enhance the game. Other parts of the game, aren't nearly as good (and this is a vast understatment). The infantry combat is missing things (eg, you can't melee with your rifle. you either shoot them or get out a knife). The graphics, while far better than they used to be, will *never* be COD4 standard (or probably even COD2 Standard).  The UI to find a battle is unfriendly (and not obvious). There is no tutorial or newbie area to learn the game to speak of. Newbies have the same life expectancy as a British Infantryman on the first day of the Somme. There's no in game voice comms (you need to login to the player run allied or axis server). You really can't play the tanks, Guns or Aircraft without a joystick (though it's possible to use a mouse, it's not user friendly, its down right hostile).

Eve is a far better game to far more people, hence why it has 100K+ players and WW2OL has less than 20K. WW2OL is a nitch game that has traded accuracy and realism for other things (many, many other things).

Some things, 6 years later are *still* being worked on that should have been there in the start. A newbie experience is *finnaly* coming in the next 3-6 months for the Chinese server release. The Unity 2 graphics engine (the Unity 1 engine was designed for the Highest graphics card available at the time...the Voodoo 3!!) is coming in the same time period, along with the terrain 2 world (a narrowing of the terrain detail from 400 square meters to 90, a procedural world that doesn't need to be created by hand), but this is still in the future.

You play the Virtual Battlefield with the game you have, not the game you wish you had. WW2OL was a disaster on release, and payed the consequences for it, and still is. CCP, despite it's own fiasco at it's start, did it far better and now has 100+ people working on it and a much more successful game. CRS has...12. 15 people total in the entire company.

Anyways, I suggest you try the free trial if it's sounds interesting enough. It's not a large download (150meg I think?) compared to other games (LOTR for me 2 weeks ago was 100 times that). 

[Comstar]

And so as not to suger coat the subject, here's one players honest and unbiased opion from 3 weeks ago, when Cogent had a peering dispute that effected his connection to WW2OL's servers.

video here (sorry, I don't know how to insert it).

[damijin]

And so as not to suger coat the subject, here's one players honest and unbiased opion from 3 weeks ago, when Cogent had a peering dispute that effected his connection to WW2OL's servers.

video here (sorry, I don't know how to insert it).

That was amazing.

[Brolan]

What is so odd is all the detail they put into the damage model is essentially wasted.  When your vehicle gets damaged there is no report of what got hit, and what the damage was.  All you see is a list of "crew member X got hit in head" and a black screen.  Or the engine dies and you have no clue what happened.

Why model all that detail if the only feedback a player gets is that vague?  Their resources are thin and they spend huge amounts of time modelling detailed stuff when they could just use a simple statistical damage model.  That way they could create new tanks and aircraft very quickly and fill out the equipment lists of the many nations involved in the conflict.

Once they have a decent number of models done they can always come back and create the detail damage models on the most important ones.  Things like trucks would never need a detailed model.

[Brolan]

And so as not to suger coat the subject, here's one players honest and unbiased opion from 3 weeks ago, when Cogent had a peering dispute that effected his connection to WW2OL's servers.

video here (sorry, I don't know how to insert it).

That was amazing.

That is the funniest thing I have ever seen.

[Tmon]

What is so odd is all the detail they put into the damage model is essentially wasted.  When your vehicle gets damaged there is no report of what got hit, and what the damage was.  All you see is a list of "crew member X got hit in head" and a black screen.  Or the engine dies and you have no clue what happened.

Why model all that detail if the only feedback a player gets is that vague?  Their resources are thin and they spend huge amounts of time modelling detailed stuff when they could just use a simple statistical damage model.  That way they could create new tanks and aircraft very quickly and fill out the equipment lists of the many nations involved in the conflict.

Once they have a decent number of models done they can always come back and create the detail damage models on the most important ones.  Things like trucks would never need a detailed model.

I don't play, but I suspect they don't do it because it wouldn't be realistic to give the vehicle crew that much detail.  Personally I don't see much difference in game play terms between an AT gun has a % chance to kill a tank from the flank and modeling that same engagement but adding in the calculation about where you were aiming and where you hit and then deciding if the projectile penetrated.

[tmp]

I don't play, but I suspect they don't do it because it wouldn't be realistic to give the vehicle crew that much detail.

Wouldn't the (remaining alive) crew be able to tell where they got hit simply from where the sound come from and welp, the gaping hole in the armour?

[Comstar]

Sadly that's one of the tradeoffs- 1st person you don't see usually where you got hit. Planes can see if their wing is blown off, but that's about it. For that matter a buttoned up tank crew member is supposed not to be able to see much outside, holes or no holes. And if the hole is big enough to see where it came from, the armour and shell that produced it will be more than enough to kill any crew who was that curious.

Personally I don't see much difference in game play terms between an AT gun has a % chance to kill a tank from the flank and modeling that same engagement but adding in the calculation about where you hit and then deciding if the projectile penetrated.

Sure, if you're playing at the level of a RTS or a battlefield scale of Steel Panthers. Operation Flashpoint doesn't care if you hit a M1 from the well-night impenetrable front with it's DU Chobman armour or the rear with a few cm of normal steel. It's still quite atmospheric (Does armed assualt do it any better?).

Realism vs Gameplay. WW2OL clearly chooses one over the other (though gameplay does sometimes win the argument because a lot of the time the PC cannot give you the fun real life can). WoW is pure gameplay and has very little realism (for that matter, I don't think it has any realism). If you enjoy games like Falcon 4.0, M1 Tank Platoon 2 or Comachae vs Havoc with the realism options all on, it works.

Sadly, sims and wargames do not sell. For that matter, neither do MMOG PVP games, and WW2OL is nothing *but* PVP.

[Brolan]

Sadly that's one of the tradeoffs- 1st person you don't see usually where you got hit. Planes can see if their wing is blown off, but that's about it. For that matter a buttoned up tank crew member is supposed not to be able to see much outside, holes or no holes. And if the hole is big enough to see where it came from, the armour and shell that produced it will be more than enough to kill any crew who was that curious.

Personally I don't see much difference in game play terms between an AT gun has a % chance to kill a tank from the flank and modeling that same engagement but adding in the calculation about where you hit and then deciding if the projectile penetrated.

Sure, if you're playing at the level of a RTS or a battlefield scale of Steel Panthers. Operation Flashpoint doesn't care if you hit a M1 from the well-night impenetrable front with it's DU Chobman armour or the rear with a few cm of normal steel. It's still quite atmospheric (Does armed assualt do it any better?).

Realism vs Gameplay. WW2OL clearly chooses one over the other (though gameplay does sometimes win the argument because a lot of the time the PC cannot give you the fun real life can). WoW is pure gameplay and has very little realism (for that matter, I don't think it has any realism). If you enjoy games like Falcon 4.0, M1 Tank Platoon 2 or Comachae vs Havoc with the realism options all on, it works.

Sadly, sims and wargames do not sell. For that matter, neither do MMOG PVP games, and WW2OL is nothing *but* PVP.

You might have hit on WWIIOL's biggest problem, it's a niche market of a niche market.

[Mrbloodworth]

1. Battleground Europe 14-Day Free Trial    Mar 01, 2006     Jan 01, 2009     Yes
Sign-up now for a FREE 14-day, all access trial of BATTLEGROUND EUROPE. No credit card required for trial.

*High Score Wins! Each week during the trial, the highest scoring infantry, tank commander and fighter pilot will be awarded a 1-year free account and a collector's t-shirt.
*Win a Blu-Ray Drive! You can win a Sony Blu-Ray BD-ROM just by starting your Free Trial today!
*Bonus! You can become eligible for a rank bonus and unlock new weapons and equipment. This is a limited time offer!
Click here for contest details and Free Trial terms and conditions.

In case anyone is interested.

[Brolan]

1. Battleground Europe 14-Day Free Trial    Mar 01, 2006     Jan 01, 2009     Yes
Sign-up now for a FREE 14-day, all access trial of BATTLEGROUND EUROPE. No credit card required for trial.

*High Score Wins! Each week during the trial, the highest scoring infantry, tank commander and fighter pilot will be awarded a 1-year free account and a collector's t-shirt.
*Win a Blu-Ray Drive! You can win a Sony Blu-Ray BD-ROM just by starting your Free Trial today!
*Bonus! You can become eligible for a rank bonus and unlock new weapons and equipment. This is a limited time offer!
Click here for contest details and Free Trial terms and conditions.

In case anyone is interested.

If you play be prepared for steep learning curve.   Join a squad to show you the ropes or if you see me on (Brolan) I can show you around.

[Mantees]

The damage model. A lot of games simplify this for a number of reasons. While the damage model for WWIIOL has always made me go "Wow, god dam", it has also always made me ask..."but, while playing, does anyone really care? Its not like we see it...."

It is very important to recognize the enemy vehicle and hit on its weakest spots. If you don't know what they are, someone in a radio channel will tell you.

On youtube you will find many short movies showing how to destroy a tank using one single explosive charge for example

[Mrbloodworth]

The damage model. A lot of games simplify this for a number of reasons. While the damage model for WWIIOL has always made me go "Wow, god dam", it has also always made me ask..."but, while playing, does anyone really care? Its not like we see it...."

It is very important to recognize the enemy vehicle and hit on its weakest spots. If you don't know what they are, someone in a radio channel will tell you.

On youtube you will find many short movies showing how to destroy a tank using one single explosive charge for example

Yeah, but my point was, you can still do this by creating hit areas in your hit box(s) instead of calculating the insane amount of things they do.

[Comstar]

To complete this thread, Docdoom posted the results of 5 tests of a PIIIH firing at 50m range at an A13. Note this dosn't include all the bits that went off and didn't cause any damage either.

 DOC  DOC is offline
CORNERED RAT
        
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 19,262
Default Re: Insane WTF moments...
Ok, here's a PzKw.IIIh firing APHE at an A13, just tested:

:First firing test, range 50m, 1 degree obliquety:
(non critical hits are edited out)

WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) striking external component d_hullfront(2) of a13(self) at 674 m/s, KE 495135 J, thickness 30.00 mm at 1 deg, t = 613.070443 s
WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) fuse started, t = 613.070443 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 186228.598728 J to d_hullfront
WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) spalling 54 pieces of d_hullfront
WEAP spall(3) striking internal component d_drivertorso(1) of a13(self) at 1008 m/s, KE 1502 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241330 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 1502.068488 J to d_drivertorso
WEAP spall(3) stopped in d_drivertorso(1) 0.20 mm, lost 1008 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241330 s
WEAP spall(4) striking internal component d_driverhead(7) of a13(self) at 1183 m/s, KE 581 J, thickness 0.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241266 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 581.465579 J to d_driverhead
WEAP spall(4) stopped in d_driverhead(7) 0.01 mm, lost 1183 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241266 s
WEAP spall(5) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 391 m/s, KE 75 J, thickness 0.02 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241465 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 74.951500 J to d_driverarms
WEAP spall(5) stopped in d_driverarms(0) 0.02 mm, lost 391 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241465 s
WEAP spall(13) striking internal component d_loaderlegs(0) of a13(self) at 1060 m/s, KE 2599 J, thickness 0.03 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.242323 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 2598.997948 J to d_loaderlegs
WEAP spall(13) stopped in d_loaderlegs(0) 0.03 mm, lost 1060 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.242323 s
WEAP spall(16) striking internal component d_maingunnrlegs(0) of a13(self) at 623 m/s, KE 690 J, thickness 0.03 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.242838 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 689.510400 J to d_maingunnrlegs
WEAP spall(16) stopped in d_maingunnrlegs(0) 0.03 mm, lost 623 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.242838 s
WEAP spall(17) striking internal component d_maingunnrlegs(1) of a13(self) at 594 m/s, KE 478 J, thickness 0.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.243264 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 478.358421 J to d_maingunnrlegs
WEAP spall(17) stopped in d_maingunnrlegs(1) 0.03 mm, lost 594 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.243264 s
WEAP spall(20) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 755 m/s, KE 699 J, thickness 0.02 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241601 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 699.399663 J to d_driverarms
WEAP spall(20) stopped in d_driverarms(0) 0.01 mm, lost 755 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241601 s
WEAP spall(21) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 284 m/s, KE 55 J, thickness 0.02 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241546 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 54.606445 J to d_driverarms
WEAP spall(21) stopped in d_driverarms(0) 0.02 mm, lost 284 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241546 s
WEAP spall(22) striking internal component d_maingunnrlegs(4) of a13(self) at 918 m/s, KE 1925 J, thickness 0.03 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.242211 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 1925.157356 J to d_maingunnrlegs
WEAP spall(22) stopped in d_maingunnrlegs(4) 0.03 mm, lost 918 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.242211 s
WEAP spall(23) striking internal component d_driverhead(1) of a13(self) at 964 m/s, KE 454 J, thickness 0.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241451 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 453.714423 J to d_driverhead
WEAP spall(23) stopped in d_driverhead(1) 0.50 mm, lost 964 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241451 s
WEAP spall(26) striking internal component d_driverhead(7) of a13(self) at 943 m/s, KE 156 J, thickness 0.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241337 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 156.201772 J to d_driverhead
WEAP spall(26) stopped in d_driverhead(7) 0.00 mm, lost 943 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241337 s
WEAP spall(27) striking internal component d_maingunnrtorso(6) of a13(self) at 986 m/s, KE 1119 J, thickness 0.05 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.242429 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 1118.883834 J to d_maingunnrtorso
WEAP spall(27) stopped in d_maingunnrtorso(6) 0.01 mm, lost 986 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.242429 s
WEAP spall(28) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 715 m/s, KE 377 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241229 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 376.501061 J to d_driverarms
WEAP spall(28) stopped in d_driverarms(0) 0.00 mm, lost 715 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241229 s
WEAP spall(29) striking internal component d_driverhead(7) of a13(self) at 928 m/s, KE 818 J, thickness 0.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241334 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 817.772960 J to d_driverhead
WEAP spall(29) stopped in d_driverhead(7) 0.01 mm, lost 928 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241334 s
WEAP spall(32) striking internal component d_maingunnrlegs(0) of a13(self) at 914 m/s, KE 1329 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.242270 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 1329.135170 J to d_maingunnrlegs
WEAP spall(32) stopped in d_maingunnrlegs(0) 0.02 mm, lost 914 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.242270 s
WEAP spall(34) striking internal component d_drivertorso(1) of a13(self) at 819 m/s, KE 698 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241475 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 697.992691 J to d_drivertorso
WEAP spall(34) stopped in d_drivertorso(1) 0.01 mm, lost 819 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241475 s
WEAP spall(37) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 943 m/s, KE 2076 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241197 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 2076.080071 J to d_driverarms
WEAP spall(37) stopped in d_driverarms(0) 0.02 mm, lost 943 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241197 s
WEAP spall(39) striking internal component d_driverhead(7) of a13(self) at 673 m/s, KE 611 J, thickness 0.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241460 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 610.761402 J to d_driverhead
WEAP spall(39) stopped in d_driverhead(7) 0.01 mm, lost 673 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241460 s
WEAP spall(40) striking internal component d_drivertorso(7) of a13(self) at 735 m/s, KE 1170 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241364 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 1169.785078 J to d_drivertorso
WEAP spall(40) stopped in d_drivertorso(7) 0.01 mm, lost 735 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241364 s
WEAP spall(45) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 1215 m/s, KE 2224 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241197 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 2223.778523 J to d_driverarms
WEAP spall(45) stopped in d_driverarms(0) 0.02 mm, lost 1215 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241197 s
WEAP spall(46) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 470 m/s, KE 107 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241966 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 106.531305 J to d_driverarms
WEAP spall(46) stopped in d_driverarms(0) 0.00 mm, lost 470 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241966 s
WEAP spall(48) striking internal component d_driverhead(7) of a13(self) at 369 m/s, KE 254 J, thickness 0.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.241862 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 253.615036 J to d_driverhead
WEAP spall(48) stopped in d_driverhead(7) 0.00 mm, lost 369 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.241862 s
WEAP spall(50) striking internal component d_loaderarms(1) of a13(self) at 868 m/s, KE 155 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.242915 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 154.842585 J to d_loaderarms
WEAP spall(50) stopped in d_loaderarms(1) 0.00 mm, lost 868 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.242915 s

:SUMMARY: Driver and gunner are hit by spall:
        

WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) penetrated d_hullfront(2) 30.00 mm, lost 142 m/s, speed now 532 m/s, t = 613.070443 s
WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) striking internal component d_driverarms(0) of a13(self) at 532 m/s, KE 308907 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.071094 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 2651.848103 J to d_driverarms
WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) penetrated d_driverarms(0) 1.00 mm, lost 2 m/s, speed now 530 m/s, t = 613.071094 s
WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) striking internal component d_drivertorso(0) of a13(self) at 530 m/s, KE 306255 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.071124 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 4402.128311 J to d_drivertorso
WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) penetrated d_drivertorso(0) 1.50 mm, lost 4 m/s, speed now 526 m/s, t = 613.071124 s
WEAP 5cm38l42_pzgr(1) detonating, t = 613.072443 s

:SUMMARY: round penetrated hull and driver and explodes:

WEAP shrapnel(2) striking internal component d_loaderlegs(0) of a13(self) at 561 m/s, KE 8886 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073046 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 8886.312114 J to d_loaderlegs
WEAP shrapnel(2) stopped in d_loaderlegs(0) 0.13 mm, lost 561 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073046 s
WEAP shrapnel(4) striking internal component d_tankcommandertorso(6) of a13(self) at 815 m/s, KE 1409 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073010 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 1409.327688 J to d_tankcommandertorso
WEAP shrapnel(4) stopped in d_tankcommandertorso(6) 0.02 mm, lost 815 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073010 s
WEAP shrapnel(5) striking internal component d_maingunnrtorso(10) of a13(self) at 410 m/s, KE 3037 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073092 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 3037.361993 J to d_maingunnrtorso
WEAP shrapnel(5) stopped in d_maingunnrtorso(10) 0.05 mm, lost 410 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073092 s
WEAP shrapnel(13) striking internal component d_tankcommanderlegs(5) of a13(self) at 825 m/s, KE 6535 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.072920 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 6535.272367 J to d_tankcommanderlegs
WEAP shrapnel(13) stopped in d_tankcommanderlegs(5) 0.08 mm, lost 825 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.072920 s
WEAP shrapnel(14) striking internal component d_tankcommanderlegs(5) of a13(self) at 951 m/s, KE 5543 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073047 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 5542.786136 J to d_tankcommanderlegs
WEAP shrapnel(14) stopped in d_tankcommanderlegs(5) 0.06 mm, lost 951 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073047 s
WEAP shrapnel(15) striking internal component d_loadertorso(7) of a13(self) at 795 m/s, KE 24232 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.072864 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 24231.876199 J to d_loadertorso
WEAP shrapnel(15) stopped in d_loadertorso(7) 0.30 mm, lost 795 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.072864 s
WEAP shrapnel(16) striking internal component d_loaderlegs(1) of a13(self) at 838 m/s, KE 18148 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.072648 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 18147.922009 J to d_loaderlegs
WEAP shrapnel(16) stopped in d_loaderlegs(1) 0.22 mm, lost 838 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.072648 s
WEAP shrapnel(17) striking internal component d_tankcommandertorso(6) of a13(self) at 622 m/s, KE 9270 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073409 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 9269.949529 J to d_tankcommandertorso
WEAP shrapnel(17) stopped in d_tankcommandertorso(6) 0.13 mm, lost 622 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073409 s
WEAP shrapnel(20) striking internal component d_tankcommanderlegs(5) of a13(self) at 796 m/s, KE 5968 J, thickness 1.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.072923 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 5968.268758 J to d_tankcommanderlegs
WEAP shrapnel(20) stopped in d_tankcommanderlegs(5) 0.07 mm, lost 796 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.072923 s
WEAP shrapnel(21) striking internal component d_gearbox(4) of a13(self) at 558 m/s, KE 13177 J, thickness 200.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.074942 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 13177.055205 J to d_gearbox
WEAP shrapnel(21) stopped in d_gearbox(4) 0.19 mm, lost 558 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.074942 s
WEAP shrapnel(22) striking internal component d_hullammo(15) of a13(self) at 972 m/s, KE 35177 J, thickness 5.00 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073211 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 35177.384852 J to d_hullammo
WEAP shrapnel(22) stopped in d_hullammo(15) 0.40 mm, lost 972 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073211 s
WEAP shrapnel(25) striking internal component d_maingunnrtorso(10) of a13(self) at 522 m/s, KE 4672 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073200 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 4672.318014 J to d_maingunnrtorso
WEAP shrapnel(25) stopped in d_maingunnrtorso(10) 0.07 mm, lost 522 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073200 s
WEAP shrapnel(26) striking external component d_lefttreadcover(11) of a13(self) at 218 m/s, KE 1384 J, thickness 6.00 mm at 18 deg, t = 613.076614 s
WEAP shrapnel(28) striking internal component d_tankcommandertorso(10) of a13(self) at 624 m/s, KE 10562 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073249 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 10561.746421 J to d_tankcommandertorso
WEAP shrapnel(28) stopped in d_tankcommandertorso(10) 0.14 mm, lost 624 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073249 s
WEAP shrapnel(29) striking internal component d_loadertorso(7) of a13(self) at 730 m/s, KE 18814 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.072848 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 18813.643759 J to d_loadertorso
WEAP shrapnel(29) stopped in d_loadertorso(7) 0.24 mm, lost 730 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.072848 s
WEAP shrapnel(30) striking internal component d_maingunnrtorso(10) of a13(self) at 127 m/s, KE 377 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.075586 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 376.705040 J to d_maingunnrtorso
WEAP shrapnel(30) stopped in d_maingunnrtorso(10) 0.01 mm, lost 127 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.075586 s
WEAP shrapnel(32) striking internal component d_loadertorso(6) of a13(self) at 564 m/s, KE 10607 J, thickness 1.50 mm at 0 deg, t = 613.073119 s
WEAP ***ACTUALLY APPLYING DAMAGE*** 10607.081862 J to d_loadertorso
WEAP shrapnel(32) stopped in d_loadertorso(6) 0.15 mm, lost 564 m/s, speed now 0 m/s, t = 613.073119 s

:SUMMARY: Commander and loader are hit by shrapnel, and ammo storage takes a critical shrapnel hit, tank blows up:

:RESULT: first round 50mm APHE from PzKw.IIIh totally destroys A13 Cruiser tank frontally at 1 degree obliquety, range 50 meters