Ships that Don't Suck aka Metagaming and You.

[Morat20]

I guess for that purpose it is ok, in 90% of real fights the small repper is pretty bad however. It takes 4 cycles to equal one Medium. If you are targeted in most fights, the small repper is useless and will buy you maybe a few seconds..  But I see what you are looking at doing with the setup.

I'd personally pull the mediums for light guns or projectile guns (for no cap use) which would free up tons of CPU...run a real tank and have an MWD, cause well any ship without an MWD in small gang is pretty horrible. Hope you don't need to reapproach a gate! Let your drones do the work and the guns just a minor deterrance. To each is own of course.

Light guns or projectiles give up the Vex bonus to medium hybrids -- the only real reason to mount them, and while I could ditch the Sensor booster and run a MWD there, Vex's cap sucks without a cap recharger, which means then I'm giving up either the Omni or the Nav computer, which means I'm cutting into my drones.

I wouldn't use this setup for solo PvP -- it's a very specific anti-Interceptor/anti-Frig ganker, running as kind of a poor man's Ishtar. If you're not warping-to-zero (or waiting for your fast ships to lead your target to you), you're doing it wrong.

But yeah, it's slow. :)

[Slayerik]

I guess for that purpose it is ok, in 90% of real fights the small repper is pretty bad however. It takes 4 cycles to equal one Medium. If you are targeted in most fights, the small repper is useless and will buy you maybe a few seconds..  But I see what you are looking at doing with the setup.

I'd personally pull the mediums for light guns or projectile guns (for no cap use) which would free up tons of CPU...run a real tank and have an MWD, cause well any ship without an MWD in small gang is pretty horrible. Hope you don't need to reapproach a gate! Let your drones do the work and the guns just a minor deterrance. To each is own of course.

Light guns or projectiles give up the Vex bonus to medium hybrids -- the only real reason to mount them, and while I could ditch the Sensor booster and run a MWD there, Vex's cap sucks without a cap recharger, which means then I'm giving up either the Omni or the Nav computer, which means I'm cutting into my drones.

I wouldn't use this setup for solo PvP -- it's a very specific anti-Interceptor/anti-Frig ganker, running as kind of a poor man's Ishtar. If you're not warping-to-zero (or waiting for your fast ships to lead your target to you), you're doing it wrong.

But yeah, it's slow. :)

Sometimes in gangs you are forced to turn around and reapproach gate to run. Good night Irene! :)

I hear ya about the guns, I don't usually like giving up bonuses.

[Morat20]

Sometimes in gangs you are forced to turn around and reapproach gate to run. Good night Irene! :)

I hear ya about the guns, I don't usually like giving up bonuses.

I'm thinking it's like everything else -- you specialize and kick ass for what you focused on, and suffer for it other times. Or you generalize -- you're okay in everything, but great in nothing.

My general Vex PvP setup is more generalized. Heavy plate, medium reppers, mids with disrupters, MWD, and cap recharger, and light guns in the highs. (And eat-your-face drones in the bay, of course). For a cruiser, it'll live a LONG time. Solid damge, solid tank. My Myrm setup is much the same.

But for what we're looking at -- what BAT needs for roaming gangs, this is MUCH better. Solid out-and-out in-your-face DPS, and VERY good for those roaming wolf-packs we keep seeing. It fits much better into the "the best tank is so much fucking DPS you don't get off another volley, ass" mold that the rest of the gang is going into.

And I think for T1 ships versus T2, that's pretty much what you have to bring.

[Kitsune]

I'm a giant whore for Amarr for no better reason than liking the shiny brass ships, so my cruiser's an Arbitrator.  It has good drone bonuses, a huge drone bay, and enough bandwidth to have five mediums out.  Its other armament blows ass; two medium laser turrets are woefully incapable of doing real damage, and I have no missile skills to use the launcher hardpoint.  But that's okay with me, it frees enough capacitor juice to let me tank through a whole legion of pirates shooting me at the same time while my drones rip them up.

My plan, once the training time for Cruiser V is done and I resub, is to stock the drone bay with some special-purpose drones.  Armor reppers, ECM, that sort of thing.  It'll let me use the huge drone bay for more versatile use than just hauling fifteen medium attack drones and only ever using five of them.

The Arbi's other bonuses are to turret disruptors and capacitor disruptors.  I have little experience with either of those, but I mean to amend that.  On their own, I haven't seen the turret disruptors accomplish much, but with a named disruptor, a 25% boost from the cruiser, and another 20%ish from the skill, I think they may stand a good shot at cramping the style of anything with a turret.  Ditto for nosferatu/cap disruptors; having an extra 25% tacked onto their effects should go a long way towards making them good to carry.  Useless for me right now since I'm primarily fighting NPCs, but nice against living targets.

[ajax34i]

As side notes,

- that Vexor setup above requires Engineering 5 for enough grid to fit the 1600 plate (with Engineering 4 you miss it by 10 grid, and have to fit 800mm)

- a small armor repairer repairs 1/4 of a medium for 1/4 of the cap juice, but its cycle is 2x as fast, so in effect a small armor repairer is only 1/2 of a medium (with much much lower grid and cpu requirements)

- not much room for spare medium drones if they get destroyed

- 200 m/s speed, and the guns have a range of only 20k

[Morat20]

As side notes,

- that Vexor setup above requires Engineering 5 for enough grid to fit the 1600 plate (with Engineering 4 you miss it by 10 grid, and have to fit 800mm)

- a small armor repairer repairs 1/4 of a medium for 1/4 of the cap juice, but its cycle is 2x as fast, so in effect a small armor repairer is only 1/2 of a medium (with much much lower grid and cpu requirements)

- not much room for spare medium drones if they get destroyed

- 200 m/s speed, and the guns have a range of only 20k

I have engineering 5, the guns are only for the idiots who get within 20k of me, and my drones rape face. :) I can carry 5 Hammer 2s and 10 Warrior 2s. That's plenty of drone death against interceptors. :)

[5150]

I've only skimmed so apologies if I'm just repeating (I suspect Slayer has already covered it anyway)

We've been working on anti speed tank setups/tactics (not that we get them used against us much) and basically you can sum them up as follows

Warrior 2's - with Drone Nav 5 these shouldl keep pace with a non-pimped Crow (i.e. no faction/plants/rigs but decent/maxed skills and a T2 fit) on the straight, very comfortably if its orbiting. A drone range extender mod (or two) will result in the demise of a Crow under fire who doesn't/can't warp out (he should die before he leaves drone control range)

[Amarr] Destroyers/Small Energy Turrets - Even with average skills (lvl 3 across the board) the Amarr destroyer with T1 medium beams/radio can hit a semi-pimped (10km/s straight) Crow more often than not (the alpha generally takes the Crow to half shields), unfortunately the Crows going to have time to warp out due to the damage bias once you hit his armour/structure but multiple destroyers can offset this.

To a lesser degree small lasers fitted on ships that dont get a small energy tracking bonus may still be able to track enough to hit the target (depending on its traversal

I haven't done any testing with the other destroyers to see if they can reliably hit an orbiting Inty (obviously the Corm and, to a lesser degree, the Thrasher can snipe at them). The Thrasher (with decent skills) will make micemeat of anything small it can hit but I doubt the Gal one (if blaster fitted) will be able to get/stay in range (and if you put rails on it you'd be better off in a Corm)

Overheated webs/Matar Recon/EAS - Typically a speed tanker wont be capable of orbiting within web range (even if he wanted to) due to his speed, therefore in order to web the target you need to get a longer ranged web. Faction webs are probably too expensive but the Matar recons and electronic attack ship, and to a lesser degree overheating, enable you to use normal webs at greater ranges. Bear in mind that double or triple webbing may be required to stop excessively fast ships getting back out of web range before their demise

Sniping - Assuming you can get far enough away to reduce the effect of traversal any sniper has the capability of hitting a speed tanker (especially if its a non-inty with a nice big signature) we've had at least 1 instance of a Crow being popped by a Tempest's alpha. The only issue here is if you get rushed by the speed tanker (who, if hes sensible, won't come straight at you) you will only have time for a couple of volleys before hes on top of you - ironically, under these conditions, I'd prefer the Moa over the Eagle (despite the Eagles higher range & DPS) as the Moa can hold 3 Warrior 2's but the Eagle has no drone bay at all!


Things probably not worth bothering with:
Missiles - unless you can slow the target down below 4km/s (IIRC) missiles arent going to do any damage (due to explosion velocity). Target painters won't help with this!
Rockets - while these might (havent checked) have enough explosion velocity to hit an Inty if you are in range to use them then you could also have webbed him (having said that T2 Jav Rockets have a longer range)

[Der Helm]

Warrior 2's

The verox setup on page 1 of this thread seems to be plain evil. At least it can tank a 1 BS spawn and kill it in reasonable time.
I'd like to have someone in an inty to see if my drones can catch him.

Matar electronic attack ships

I could train that skill right now, somehow I completely overlooked how usefull a bonus to web range could be.

[Slayerik]

Warrior 2's

The verox setup on page 1 of this thread seems to be plain evil. At least it can tank a 1 BS spawn and kill it in reasonable time.
I'd like to have someone in an inty to see if my drones can catch him.

Matar electronic attack ships

I could train that skill right now, somehow I completely overlooked how usefull a bonus to web range could be.

Just be prepared to be primaried a lot, the Hyena is dangerous to a lot of ships and is pretty much paper so people will want to kill you quick  :) Being primaried, to me, is a compliment to my fine choice in ships!!! :)

[Der Helm]

*Insert concord joke here*

[Akkori]

Does Target Nav Prediction help missile users? 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles sounds nice enough.

[Vedi]

Another counter that I don't think has been discussed much is to fly a battleship and fit one or preferably two large Energy Neutralizers. They have a range of 25 km, so anything that can web or jam you, you can hit. You don't need tracking or anything for these. One hit of a large neut will kill the capacitor of a frigate, two will empty a cruiser.

With an empty capacitor, your usual interceptor or Vagabond can't maintain the MWD, can't warp and can't fire. Of course, they may have a cap injector, and of course they may retain the MWD speed long enough to get out of range so they can build up enough cap to get away, but if you time it right you might get them. And they sure won't get you.

They're not terribly easy to fit though, but some ships, like the Domi are great platforms for them. You'd likely need a cap injector too.

[bhodi]

Does Target Nav Prediction help missile users? 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles sounds nice enough.

The problem is at the speeds we're talking about, all these ships can outrun even light missiles - they never even explode.

[5150]

Another counter that I don't think has been discussed much is to fly a battleship and fit one or preferably two large Energy Neutralizers. They have a range of 25 km, so anything that can web or jam you, you can hit. You don't need tracking or anything for these. One hit of a large neut will kill the capacitor of a frigate, two will empty a cruiser.

Yeah thats valid

However since the Inty changes, the ones with the tackle range bonus can (with near maxed skills and T2 mods) tackle outside the 25km neut range, also there are some Inty pilots that fit a cap injector (rather than a passive cap mod)

[Megrim]

Does Target Nav Prediction help missile users? 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles sounds nice enough.

The problem is at the speeds we're talking about, all these ships can outrun even light missiles - they never even explode.

T2 Rockets? One of the variants has like 38k range or something.

[bhodi]

T2 Rockets? One of the variants has like 38k range or something.

No.

The advanced long range rockets have a flight time of 4 seconds and a velocity of 3250m/s. Even with skills, it barely breaks 5m/sec. It's the same with precision light missiles. Precision cruise missiles are slightly faster at 3750m/s, but their explosion velocity is 1000m/s so they'd do no damage anyway.

Also, even if he was to burn right towards you for some reason, and your missile actually hit him, you still have the explosion velocity to deal with - the explosion velocity is only 3000m/s, so they'd do no damage either.

[Akkori]

So bottom line, missiles are essentially useless against fast (4k+) ships? This would mean I would be little good against an inty. Maybe they will leave me alone so I can target other stuff.

[Kamen]

I noticed in the last patch the Moa can now fit 5 turrets.  I haven't played around fitting one, but if you have a proclivity for Caldari ships it's probably a viable option now.

[5150]

So bottom line, missiles are essentially useless against fast (4k+) ships? This would mean I would be little good against an inty. Maybe they will leave me alone so I can target other stuff.

Yep*, unless you can slow the target down (web him) - dont feel too bad, unless you very good tracking (small energy turrets [on an Amarr Destroyer]) or are sniping turrets are unlikely to hit either.

*Interestingly since trinity I actually take a small amount of damage from light missiles now (despite going over 5km/s), its not enough to threaten me unlessI had a load of people shooting but it does suggest that _something_ got changed in the math dept.

I noticed in the last patch the Moa can now fit 5 turrets.  I haven't played around fitting one, but if you have a proclivity for Caldari ships it's probably a viable option now.

It doesnt really help Blaster fits on the Moa/Eagle as cap was a problem with 4 turrets already (I dropped a turret for a Nos usually) but it will help DPS when sniping (although I suspect cap is still going to be an issue)

[Kamen]

I agree of course that a Moa would make a shitty blaster platform.

It might be useful now in a gang as a inexpensive medium railgun platform for those characters that are Caldari specialized.  After all, those poor Caldari pilots don't have many non missile boat options before they get to the battleship or HAC level.

[5150]

I agree of course that a Moa would make a shitty blaster platform.

Its not actually that bad an option (obviously a Gal boat would be better) but depending on your drone/HAC skill the Moa can have a higher DPS than the Eagle due to the drone bay and (as long as you spring for rigs) you can get a tank that isnt a million miles away from the Eagle too

Onyx is a better option though IMO

[Stephen Zepp]

Here's the STDS (Ships That Don't Suck) plan I have with everything I can think of taken into effect:

[Stiletto, PvP Tackler]
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay

1MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Remote Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II

Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Here's the downside:
Skill plan for Taki Makaze

1. Analytical Mind IV (1 day, 7 hours, 39 minutes, 47 seconds)
2. Logic I (35 minutes, 22 seconds)
3. Logic II (2 hours, 36 minutes, 55 seconds)
4. Logic III (14 hours, 7 minutes, 12 seconds)
5. Iron Will III (5 hours, 3 minutes, 2 seconds)
6. Clarity III (13 hours, 30 minutes, 22 seconds)
7. Minmatar Frigate I (19 minutes, 39 seconds)
8. Minmatar Frigate II (1 hour, 31 minutes, 32 seconds)
9. Minmatar Frigate III (8 hours, 37 minutes, 43 seconds)
10. Minmatar Frigate IV (2 days, 48 minutes, 51 seconds)
11. Minmatar Frigate V (11 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes)
12. Evasive Maneuvering IV (1 day, 21 hours, 3 minutes, 33 seconds)
13. Evasive Maneuvering V (10 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes, 32 seconds)
14. Interceptors I (44 minutes, 55 seconds)
15. Navigation IV (22 hours, 31 minutes, 46 seconds)
16. Afterburner IV (22 hours, 31 minutes, 46 seconds)
17. High Speed Maneuvering I (45 minutes, 21 seconds)
18. High Speed Maneuvering II (3 hours, 31 minutes, 14 seconds)
19. High Speed Maneuvering III (19 hours, 54 minutes, 46 seconds)
20. Sensor Linking I (30 minutes, 21 seconds)
21. Sensor Linking II (2 hours, 23 minutes, 16 seconds)
22. Small Blaster Specialization I (29 minutes, 28 seconds)
23. Interceptors II (3 hours, 29 minutes, 12 seconds)
24. Interceptors III (19 hours, 43 minutes, 25 seconds)
25. Rockets I (9 minutes, 49 seconds)
26. Rockets II (45 minutes, 47 seconds)
27. Rockets III (4 hours, 18 minutes, 50 seconds)
28. Rockets IV (1 day, 24 minutes, 25 seconds)
29. Rockets V (5 days, 18 hours, 4 minutes)
30. Rocket Specialization I (29 minutes, 28 seconds)
31. Small Blaster Specialization II (2 hours, 17 minutes, 18 seconds)
32. Small Blaster Specialization III (12 hours, 56 minutes, 36 seconds)
33. Sensor Linking III (13 hours, 30 minutes, 22 seconds)

Total time: 41 days, 12 hours, 27 minutes, 52 seconds; Completion: 5/13/2008 7:14:07 PM

And that is if I drop everything and do it right now. /sigh

[bhodi]

Don't bother training a week for t2 rockets. That's a huge waste. So are t2 blasters. You're a dedicated tackler. Frankly, you're the best frigate-sized dedicated tackler in the game. Your damage is already anemic so don't spend weeks of training trying to bump it up to paltry. Your job is not to do damage.

Try this fitting. It's better. You need AWU IV to fit it, so train it instead of t2 weapons.

2x 150mm AutoCannon II
1x Named Rocket Launcher

1x 1MN MicroWarpdrive II
1x Warp Disruptor II (24km)
1x Named Web -or- RSD
1x Small Capacitor Battery II

1x Nanofiber II
2x Overdrive II

The cap battery lets you run your MWD and point indefinitely. You're pretty much invulnerable with this setup since you can top out at 6250m/s and go at least 5000m/s in a wide orbit. With Inty IV, your point goes out to a retarded 28k.

[Stephen Zepp]

Yah, was curious why the "battleclinic" loadout didn't have web/more speed, which is one of the big reasons I asked. I think it was more of a solo thing.

On the autocannons, that's about 2 weeks -more- training than the T2 blasters given my current char setup. Will probably eventually move over to that, will see.

Good points on the dedicated tackler stuff though, and the speeds.

[Phildo]

Screw guns, fly small T2 energy leeches.  It's more infuriating to the guy you're tackling, and as long as you're already in web range...

[Morat20]

Screw guns, fly small T2 energy leeches.  It's more infuriating to the guy you're tackling, and as long as you're already in web range...

Hmm. Leeches work as a % of cap, right? They only suck if the target's cap % is above your cap %? Mixed neuts/leeches might work better.

[Akkori]

Nosferatu suck amazing amounts of grid. I tried to put on in my crappy little Osprey last night, just to see, and I would have had to go down to 1 turret and one launcher.