Ships that Don't Suck aka Metagaming and You.

[Hoax]

Aha, did the stupid title get your attention?

Clearly in Provi 90% of the time we are fighting against or trying to fight against Interceptors & fast HAC setups.  Clearly we are losing atm.  Over the course of several painful lessons I've come to the realization that in a engagement metagame dictated entirely by speed many ships just aren't worth flying.

Here is my unofficial list to start us off, of what is worth flying for pvp in Provi atm.  I'm only going to do cheaper ships & this is not meant to be definitive, rather to spark discussion and be molded into a good list for all of us to refer to and so that we can make sure we have some ship+fittings from this list in the area so we can actively hunt and destroy the smaller gang and solo operators that raid Provi most often.

This list will ignore the fact that on offensive ops we have to be very worried about sniper fleets warping to gates/ss's off the gate at great distance and picking us apart.  It will also ignore BS/Carrier foes as obviously -BAT- doesn't need to get into those fights by ourselves at this time.


THE LIST *cue fanfaire*

'Matar:
Frigate = Vigil (thanks Bhodi for the heads up, this is the only effective t1 tackler worth talking about, fast as balls, enough mids, on the cheap)
Interceptor = Stilletto (3 mid interceptors =  )
Destroyer = Thrasher (mean alpha destroyer)
Cruiser = Rupture (one of the 2 best dps t1's in the game, obviously we're talking AC ruptures not horrible tracking Arty)
Battlecruiser = Hurricane (good dps, not entirely paper thin)

Caldari:
Frigate = Griffin (Yes, ECM is that good, even t1 frigs with it are welcome!)
Destroyer = Cormorant (Sniping destroyer)
Interceptor = Crow (THE rocket/missile 'ceptor)
Cruiser = Blackbird (ECM 4tw)

Gal:
Interceptor = Taranis (If you can't beat em, join em?)
Cruiser = Thorax (See later in thread for setups, best t1 cruiser dps if it can get on top of a webbed target)
Cruiser = Vexor (t2 drones = ouch, see thread for drone rape setup, THX AGAIN BHODI 4 DA INFOZ)

Amarr:
Interceptor = Malediction (a black executioner? s3x)
Destroyer = Coercer (crazy high anti-ceptor dps, see Bhodi's post, thx again Bhodi!)
Cruiser = Arbitrator (drones for punch, nos/neut setups, tracking disruption setups, versatile ship)
Battlecruiser = Harbinger (Best BC alpha IG, great dps versus HAC's if we can put a web on them)

***

Ships not on the list but if you really must bring one they might still work:
Crusader (only 2 mids = no web = sad panda)
Claw (see above)
Moa (can it operate as a t1 sniper?  Do we care about sniping at this point?)
Caracal (was on the original list, we need to test if they can be effective anti-speed anti-drone ships with fast missiles, fof's etc)
Stabber (does it have the manueverability to backup tacklers quickly?  Does that matter if it has even less survivability due to its size/lack of tank when it gets there?)
Ferox (similar to the Moa in terms of situational usefulness, but slower, doesn't seem like it works for what we need?)
Myrmidon (t2 drones for punch, but the synergy isn't really there, better to field a cheaper to lose and faster alligning Vexor)
The Tier1 BC's (clearly these are designed to fit warfare links, which could be cool and at that point it might be good to have one t/f?)
Omen (can it actually be fitted to not suck? I'm working on it, will report back in a week after I've lost 3 of them)
Raptor/Ares (split bonuses are fucking fail, nobody should fly them, fly the Crow/Taranis instead)

Obvious other things go here:

-I don't know enough about destroyers, for example to really fuck up a 'ceptor how many utility slots do you need for tracking boosting?  Is there consensus that one is just That Much Better?  I'd love to hear about it.

-Interceptors aren't too expensive and they are great.  I didn't put them on the list because well obviously they are good.  Though the Crusader, Ares and Claw are not quite as good for fleet purposes without 3 mids.

DO NOT hesistate to critique and respond to this, I find myself asking before every op what to bring or what is considered most valuable.  Considering most ops seem to be going this one direction I think we can flesh out the answers to those questions at this time for some of our newer members or just people who haven't had the pleasure of dying along side us yet.

[Phildo]

Just a note that a Thorax without an MWD is gank-bait to these guys.  I also had a lot of trouble getting drones to actually damage them in the engagements I had two days ago, so Hobgoblins are probably not the drone of choice for chasing interceptors.  I've heard Warriors have much more success.

[Morat20]

Myrmidions can't deploy more in the way of drones than Vexors (but they can carry more). Myrmidions, though, can make a beast of a tank. If I wanted to be a real ass about it (playing bait), I could fit out a Myrmidion with 10k shields and 10k armor, 2 medium reppers, and carry 5xLight ECM drones, 5xWarrior IIs, and 5xHammer 2s and hold the armor tank for 4 minutes.

No MWD, and it's either AB or Warp disrupter -- and I could still fit 5 light nos or neuts just in case they were stupid.

I'd prefer a Vexor though. I've never figured out what to put in the highs -- right now it's just some railguns and a pair of salvagers. Drone-wise, right now mine carries 5xHobs, 5xWarriors and 5xHammers (all t1).

Since I'm collecting a whole bunch of Vexors in a nearby low-sec system, I'm open to suggestion.

Frig-wise, the Maulus is okay (can carry twin RSD's and two light ECM drones, which can be annoying at times). I don't think anyone's up to Battleships, but the Dominix is just plain evil in the hands of a skilled drone user. But what I'd REALLY love to fly is an Ishtar. All the drone bay and bandwitdh of a Domi, the speed of a Vex. Imagine a Vex that can dump 5 heavy drones at will, or dump a few waves of lights and mediums -- whatever the situation calls for?

[Der Helm]

Cruiser = Caracal (Missile dps is nice enough, with lights or even better precision lights you can put some pain on 'ceptors ++)

Morat20 Quintons report of almost breaking the tank of one of the tanarises got me thinking (I know I know, bad idea)

So, this is what I came up with.

Anti-Tanaris frig popper

5 Assault missile launchers
4 racial ECMs/1 point or web
2 BCS (more damage, lol)

Absolutly needs a tackler to keep the enemy in range and from warping away.

I think 2 of those and 2 tacklers would be enough to kill them.

Quinton, how many volleys do you think you would have needed to kill one ?

[Thrawn]

Can't a fully fitted nano ship usually just straight outrun missiles so they are never even hit?

[bhodi]

You generally can't hit interceptors with light missiles and expect it to do any damage at all. The taranis is special in that it rapes face but you have to get within 1-3km. Thus, it's very vulnerable to webs and such. And such includes light missiles.

The appropriate counter to intys is an eagle or muninn or a destroyer with a ton of tracking mods.

Can't a fully fitted nano ship usually just straight outrun missiles so they are never even hit?

Yes.

[eldaec]

I'd be interested to see how someone sets up a dps thorax.

I can't make any medium blaster Thorax fitting work if you want a MWD and any sort of defence, not enough powergrid.

[bhodi]

This is a low SP fitting.

2x Heavy Neutron Blasters (named)
3x Heavy Ion Blasters (named)

1x Microwarpdrive
1x Warp Disruptor (20km range)
1x Stasis Webifier (named)

1x Inertia Stabilizer (named)
1x Nanofiber Internal Structure (named)
2x Magnetic Stabilizers (named)
1x Wildcard (T2 Small Rep, EANM, DC, whichever)

5x Warrior Is and 5x Light Armor Maintenance Bots or 5x Valkyrie Is

[Nerf]

1) Phil, whats your drone navigation skill? That makes a HUGE difference on whether or not your drones can do shit, same with drone sharpshooting.

2) Rockets are going to be much higher dps on interceptors than standard missiles are, the only downside of them is range, which you can toss right out the window when you need the target within web range anyways.

[Hoax]

I'd be interested to see how someone sets up a dps thorax.

I can't make any medium blaster Thorax fitting work if you want a MWD and any sort of defence, not enough powergrid.

This.

You generally can't hit interceptors with light missiles and expect it to do any damage at all. The taranis is special in that it rapes face but you have to get within 1-3km. Thus, it's very vulnerable to webs and such. And such includes light missiles.

That's half wrong imo.  Fleet interceptors will be designed to operate outside of web range because their goal is to tackle not do dps, it'll be pure speed to orbit at 20-24km guns are immaterial.  But we've been facing mostly 'ceptors that are more solopwn setups which means dps is needed which means shorter range setups like blaster taranis, rocket crow, rocket malediction etc.

The appropriate counter to intys is an eagle or muninn or a destroyer with a ton of tracking mods.

Do you actually know what DD's are considered top inty rape?  Setups etc?  We need that info badly.

Can't a fully fitted nano ship usually just straight outrun missiles so they are never even hit?

We're not running up entirely against 7k+ Vaga's with full snake, though it may seem that way.  Light Assault Caracal w/ Light Percisions is going to be close to as threatening as we can be it seems.  I'm open to tracking modded Moa theories as well.

Just a note that a Thorax without an MWD is gank-bait to these guys.  I also had a lot of trouble getting drones to actually damage them in the engagements I had two days ago, so Hobgoblins are probably not the drone of choice for chasing interceptors.  I've heard Warriors have much more success.

We're def talking speed Thorax setups, but the point of this thread is to bring more speed, more webs & more threat versus speed to our gangs.

[Slayerik]

I'd be interested to see how someone sets up a dps thorax.

I can't make any medium blaster Thorax fitting work if you want a MWD and any sort of defence, not enough powergrid.

This.

Problem with that setup is....uh...what is it trying to accomplish? It has overdrive for extra speed, I get that. It has nano for better acceleration and faster MWD speed...but where is the MWD ? (Not that you can speed tank a thorax really without speeding a 100 mil in rigs). It has an absolute paper tank, the Diagnostic in the low is horrible. Pull those three lows and put in a damage control, EANM, and make room for a plate or a repper by switching to Ions/Electrons. If you need some good PVP Gallente setups just check my boy Kaker's losses, this guy pvp's and dies as much as anyone I know...and usually in pretty affordable getup.

Gallente ships aren't fast. Some can be made fast and effective, but they are usually less effective than their true speed tanking counterparts...the Minmatar. I speed tank a deimos and an ishtar, cause they have shield resists.


If you want to kill Vagas, get a rapier or Huginn. If you dont want to die as a rapier or Huginn instantly...have a friend train Scimitars or basilisks (so they can get primaried instead : )

[bhodi]

Do you actually know what DD's are considered top inty rape?  Setups etc?  We need that info badly.

Sure.

The best damage is the Cocerer, by far. Not coincidentally it has the lowest engagement range at about 50km.
8x Dual Light Beam IIs, Aurora S
1x Sensor Booster II (No script)
1x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Heat Sink II
     
This setup will cost about ~5 million ISK in fittings and will require significant Gunnery skills (although perhaps only an added day or two of training if you were working towards t2 sniping anyway). It should be able to do upwards of 150 DPS to interceptors traveling at speeds of 5km/sec or higher at middle ranges (~45km).

This thing quickly targets and efficiently rapes the shit out of anything small, such as pods, shuttles, or frigates, even in large fleets. A significant amount of damage can also be done to the shields of larger ships as well. However, it is a pure glass cannon, if you don't warp out as soon as you're taking moderate damage, you're fucked.

The Cormorant, however, does about 70% of the DPS of the Cocerer, however it's got double the engagement range, at 100km
7x 150mm railgun IIs (7x 125mm railguns if you're poor or don't have Advanced Weapon Upgrades V and aren't fitting a RCU)
2x Sensor Booster IIs (if you want to save money, use 2x named sensor boosters instead)
2x Tracking Computer IIs
MAPC, Mag Field Stab, or RCU (to fit a full rack of 150mm's if you don't have AWU V(RCU/150mm fit assumes AWU 4))

You can lock and and snipe at around 100km with spike s if you have maxed out gunnery skills, thats why you need the T2 guns. This is possible because they added the 50% optimal range bonus to all destroyers, and then the cormorant bonus adds another 40% if you have skill to level 4. The setup is expensive due to high demand for small rails, so if you want to save money, using 7x 125mm rails and named sensor boosters can lock at ~95km or so with a ~73km optimal with destroyer IV.

The thrasher and the catalyst are very similar; they do about 75% of the DPS of the Cocerer, with the Catalyst pulling slightly ahead. The Catalyst pretty much sucks. You should pick damage or range since they both have a 50km engagement range.

However, you CAN build the thrasher to have an absurd alpha:
7x 280mm Howitzer Artillery IIs
2x Sensor Booster
1x Tracking Computer
1x Reactor Control Unit
1x Gyrostabilizer

With decent skills this should yield somewhere on the order of 800+ (~1400 with Quake and level 4 in all relevant skills) damage before resists in your first salvo, which will instapop inties, shuttles and T1 frigs and will put the hurtin' on assault frigs. Range is excellent, particularly if you use tremor ammo (50km range!). Use this in gatecamps and other ops where mobility (and tanking!) is not as important, as you get an excellent scan resolution but can't tackle at all. Try not to die, as the 280 T2s are about 600k each.

The same setup will fit with 280mm I's and a PDS in place of the RCU in the lows. Great for getting podkills.
(AWU III) This setup is better if you completely remove the RCU/PDS and do a second Gyrostabilizer II on the lows, and replace the last 280mm II with a 250mm II. Dps is higher and so is Alpha. With (AWU V) you can do 7x 280mm II and 2 Gyro II, and still have 3 grid left for your mids.


Skills that are absolutely required:
Long Range Targeting IV (For SBIIs)
     Electronics II (Prerequisite for LRT)
Weapon Upgrades IV (Tracking Enhancer IIs, Damage mod IIs)
     Gunnery II (prerequisite for Weapons Upgrades)
     Trajectory Analysis IV (Tracking Computer IIs)
     Gunnery V (prerequisite for Trajectory Analysis)
Small Beam/Rail/Artillery Spec I (For the weaponry)
     Gunnery II (prerequisite for Small Specialization)
     Sharpshooter III (prerequisite for Small Specialization)
Destroyers IV
     Racial Frigate III

Skills that will really, really help:
Motion Prediction V
Destroyer V
Surgical Strike V
Rapid Firing V
Small Beam/Rail/Artillery Spec IV/V

[Hoax]

Myrmidions can't deploy more in the way of drones than Vexors (but they can carry more). Myrmidions, though, can make a beast of a tank. If I wanted to be a real ass about it (playing bait), I could fit out a Myrmidion with 10k shields and 10k armor, 2 medium reppers, and carry 5xLight ECM drones, 5xWarrior IIs, and 5xHammer 2s and hold the armor tank for 4 minutes.
No MWD, and it's either AB or Warp disrupter -- and I could still fit 5 light nos or neuts just in case they were stupid.

For synergy purposes, monster tank isn't really needed.  If your saying we wont get more dps out of a Myrm then a Vexor perhaps Myrms shouldn't really be on the list as they are just bigger slower targets.

I'd prefer a Vexor though. I've never figured out what to put in the highs -- right now it's just some railguns and a pair of salvagers. Drone-wise, right now mine carries 5xHobs, 5xWarriors and 5xHammers (all t1).

Spare hi slots on setups with this gang's goals in mind would be used for: Guns that can track heavy drones and rip into them, Nos/Neut (any cycle will fuck with a non booster mwd setup; or force them to pop a booster), & possibly remote repping though I doubt that will see a ton of use with most of the ships being quite mobile.  If we ended up with say 3 Vexors they could circle tank w/ 2 MRR's in the hi's to add some survivability but I think I'd rather have the drone pop'ing.

Frig-wise, the Maulus is okay (can carry twin RSD's and two light ECM drones, which can be annoying at times). I don't think anyone's up to Battleships, but the Dominix is just plain evil in the hands of a skilled drone user. But what I'd REALLY love to fly is an Ishtar. All the drone bay and bandwitdh of a Domi, the speed of a Vex. Imagine a Vex that can dump 5 heavy drones at will, or dump a few waves of lights and mediums -- whatever the situation calls for?

I just don't see RSD's being useful versus the fast lock times on Inty's or HAC's tbh, t1 frigs are eaten by drones if they aren't crazy fast within moments unless we can pull a quick jam.  Much rather Gal & Amarr pilots train up Matar Frig 3-4 and use a Vigil for point+web+speed, the guns are irrelevant to don't waste time training Proj unless you must.


***

TY Bhodi for the DD setup info.

I've modified the list to reflect what has been discussed so far.  Right now the only thing on the chopping block is the Caracal in my mind, perhaps we can run some effectiveness trials in the coming week as more people get into 'ceptors in -BAT-?

[Quinton]

Cruiser = Caracal (Missile dps is nice enough, with lights or even better precision lights you can put some pain on 'ceptors ++)

Morat20 Quintons report of almost breaking the tank of one of the tanarises got me thinking (I know I know, bad idea)

So, this is what I came up with.

Anti-Tanaris frig popper

5 Assault missile launchers
4 racial ECMs/1 point or web
2 BCS (more damage, lol)

Absolutly needs a tackler to keep the enemy in range and from warping away.

I think 2 of those and 2 tacklers would be enough to kill them.

Quinton, how many volleys do you think you would have needed to kill one ?

I was shooting at him for a while.  He was at ~17km, going fast enough that even with MWD I couldn't expand the gap.

He could have bugged out at any time.  Once he was into structure and his buddy hadn't turned up he did.

If I had a point/web on him, he would have been in trouble.

[Hoax]

I'd be interested to see how someone sets up a dps thorax.

I can't make any medium blaster Thorax fitting work if you want a MWD and any sort of defence, not enough powergrid.

This.

Problem with that setup is....

It was an example of a less then optimal setup that was prob on the cheap/low skill reqs/grabbed what was handy side but still scored a 'ceptor kill during a gangbang because once he had web on him it was over quickly.

If you want to kill Vagas, get a rapier or Huginn. If you dont want to die as a rapier or Huginn instantly...have a friend train Scimitars or basilisks (so they can get primaried instead : )

If the balance is that poor then I for one look forward to the major ass rape of a nerf that nanofiber should be getting sometime in the future.

[Phildo]

I played around with Gallente destroyer settings today.  I don't have all those useful skills you listed, but 75mm railguns with two tracking mods should be able to nail an interceptor, and I threw a web onto the midslot.  I noticed when I was getting raped by them the other day that they were orbiting around 10km the entire time and often entered into webbing range.  If I'd had one equipped, my drones would've dominated them.  Problem is, my gunnery skills are just too low for it right now and I really didn't want to focus on them until I was super pimped-out with drones.

[eldaec]

Just looking at the stats on the interceptors, wouldn't the best metagame be to simply fit a couple of Energy Neutralisers, and ideally a neutrailiser drone and/or webifier drone on any ship you might be flying?

I can see if you are solo it might not be reliable, but if everyone has at least one neut in even a very small gang, aren't you going to turn off those MWDs fairly quickly?

[lac]

my gunnery skills are just too low for it right now

Could anybody give an indication as to what gunnery skills you would need to hit an inty while in a destroyer? I have halfway decent skills but when I fitted 250mm arty II's on my Hyena I couldn't hit a stationary frigate while in a 13km orbit doing 3.3k. I don't know what EAS tracking is compared to destroyer tracking, maybe that was it.

[nurtsi]

If you need some good PVP Gallente setups just check my boy Kaker's losses, this guy pvp's and dies as much as anyone I know...and usually in pretty affordable getup.

I see you've killed quite a few fast ships (interceptors, nano ishtars etc) with Bouncer IIs (and sometimes even with Gardes). How does that work? You drop them at a distance (optimal is like 50km, right?) and then engage? How do you get them to actually hit an interceptor?

[Endie]

I'm guessing he's using the drone tracking module?  I forget the name, but it's a good one.

Re the webbing drones, the trouble with using them vs inties is that they are heavy drones.  I've never seen them used myself, but I gather that an inty can MWD away from them, usually.

If these guys are using 200dps blaster taranises then a dual web will fuck up their good day.

Edit: once they start orbiting a target a stealth bomber or two will also pop them, thanks to the precision bonuses.  Especially if they keep their mwd on to orbit like some crows do.  But be aware that getting caught alone in a SB by them would be death, as soon as they lock you up.  It's a numbers game, and you best have an RSD fitted with tracking disrupt script loaded so you can break their lock and cloak or warp out.  Alternatively, I once held a 10km/s crow (pilot with true -10 sec) away from my gang of T1 frigates for long enough for us to loot the guy who got popped then leave, just using a griffin.  Inties are hilariously bad vs ewar.  A decent blackbird fit will literally permajam several at once.

Finally, once Helm gets skilled up in his rapier then inties will pop or run.  It would render them useless flying coffins anywhere inside their engagement envelope.

[Morat20]

About all I can bring to the table are Warrior's -- if I'm not expected to scramble/web, I can fit the drone tracking augmentor and really go to town. My warrior I's are pretty fast -- 5k+ I think -- and they hit hard, for T1 drones. (5 of them, 100% bonus due to DI 5/5, 40% bonus due to Cruisers 4/5). We'll have to check it on Sisi when we go, but I think a full flight of Warrior I's can really fuck the sort of solo-gank speed-fits we're talking here.

My drones have a somewhat limited range (40k? 50k?) unless I fit a module for it, but their range is pretty much dead along my unaided lock range, so there you go.

If Warrior I's won't do it, I'll grab some Warrior 2's. :)

[Slayerik]

Warrior IIs are cheap, a couple hundred K....well worth it.

[Morat20]

Warrior IIs are cheap, a couple hundred K....well worth it.

Oh, that's right -- they're lights. I'm still used to working with a more limited budget (plus, I've been buying drones in lots of 25 when setting up PvP ships -- a few hundred k times 25 is expensive).

[bhodi]

I've modified the list to reflect what has been discussed so far.  Right now the only thing on the chopping block is the Caracal in my mind, perhaps we can run some effectiveness trials in the coming week as more people get into 'ceptors in -BAT-?

The wiki, the paragon of all info says on this topic

"The Caracal is a classic and widely used Caldari missile boat. Unfortunately, changes to the way certain modules work have causes Caracals to be less effective on fleet ops than they once were. If you are looking for a ship to use on fleet ops, you are better off flying the Blackbird."

I completely agree. A blackbird is way more useful than a caracal in a fleet environment.

[Endie]

As a member of Euro Squad, I am obliged to say that the Moa is much improved for anti-support work, and will almost never get primaried in fleet fights.

I want to try one out on the test server.  I have an eagle that I've never shot at anything in, and I'd like to try out the technique and see how effective it is before discovering I've got the tactics all wrong on live.

[Morat20]

I've got a question: What about the Gallente destroyer? Any workable fit there for anti-interceptor work?

[bhodi]

I've got a question: What about the Gallente destroyer? Any workable fit there for anti-interceptor work?

No. It sucks. The good news is cross training to a cormorant which uses the same guns takes 6 hours (caldari frig 3). With your crazy strong drone skills, you should be flying a Vexor anyway. Let me just quote the wiki on this topic:

Extremely mean, versatile drone carrier. It can tank reasonably well, turns on a dime, and does insane damage with good drone skills. It's also pretty cheap. If you are in an interceptor, and see one of these, RUN THE FUCK AWAY. It WILL kill you.

Highs
    1x Drone Link Augmentor I
    4x Dual 150mm Railgun I (Pick ammo depending on engagement range.)
Mids
    1x Your choice of Sensor Booster I or another Drone Navigation Computer I
    1x Drone Navigation Computer I
    1x Omnidirectional Tracking Link I
Lows
    1x Small Armor Repairer I (or II if you can use it)
    1x Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane I
    1x 1600mm Rolled Tungsten/Crystalline Carbonide Plates
    1x Damage Control I
Drones
    5x Your Choice of Medium Drone (Mix of Hammerheads/Valks is good)
    5x Warriors (For pesky interceptors)

This is a pretty little ball of evil. You get a drone control range of around 70km (with Scout Drone IV, Electronic Warfare Drone at III). Your drones get a speed bonus due to the Drone Navigation Computer, but also get a tracking bonus due to the Omnidirectional Tracking Link I. This means they get there faster, and hit more often.

In addition, you get 4x Dual 150mm Railguns which increases your damage thanks to the Vexor's forgotten 5% increase in medium hybrid damage. It's fair to say that this setup rapes interceptors. You also get a decent tank with the 1600mm plate, a damage control, and a enam which gives you 77/57/36/57 resists with a SAR II.

RE: Endie, If you're going to fly the eurosquad comedy moa, I simply have to see it in action. Seriously. I'm not going to spoil this surprise.

[Morat20]

Goddamn it, Bhodi. You know what that means? I just spent 20 million ISK on the wrong parts. Why the hell couldn't you have posted that last week? That's goddamn evil.

I will have to pick up Minmatar Drone Specialization next time I'm back in the civilized world so I can run Warrior II's, but I can -- right now -- fit all of that. My drone range exceeds my targetting range (I can target to 63km --78 with the booster , and my drone range is 78k, since I have Scouts to 5 and EDW to 4). I'm going to have to train up my targetting skills more, since I'd prefer to run Drone Nav Computer x2 than use a Sensor Booster, but I need the booster if I want to target to my drones max range.

Oh well. I have the Damage Controls and EANM already, and the plate, so I just need the smal reppers (I normally use mediums for a Vex), the drone stuff, and the dual 150 rails. And ammo other than antimatter.

Let me reiterate: That is a fucking evil setup. The tank is light for my tastes, but can run reasonably long if I turn the guns off (and with 5xhammers or 5xwarriors, I don't really have to have guns). Holy shit, I can't wait to put one together. There goes another 20 million in parts, drones, and spares -- more if I go with T2 warriors.

I can't wait to fly it.

[Stephen Zepp]

Goddamn it, Bhodi. You know what that means? I just spent 20 million ISK on the wrong parts. Why the hell couldn't you have posted that last week? That's goddamn evil.

I will have to pick up Minmatar Drone Specialization next time I'm back in the civilized world so I can run Warrior II's, but I can -- right now -- fit all of that. My drone range exceeds my targetting range (I can target to 63km --78 with the booster , and my drone range is 78k, since I have Scouts to 5 and EDW to 4). I'm going to have to train up my targetting skills more, since I'd prefer to run Drone Nav Computer x2 than use a Sensor Booster, but I need the booster if I want to target to my drones max range.

Oh well. I have the Damage Controls and EANM already, and the plate, so I just need the smal reppers (I normally use mediums for a Vex), the drone stuff, and the dual 150 rails. And ammo other than antimatter.

Let me reiterate: That is a fucking evil setup. The tank is light for my tastes, but can run reasonably long if I turn the guns off (and with 5xhammers or 5xwarriors, I don't really have to have guns). Holy shit, I can't wait to put one together. There goes another 20 million in parts, drones, and spares -- more if I go with T2 warriors.

I can't wait to fly it.

Don't buy the rails--I have quite a few medium guns scattered around, and we can try to hook up and see if I have anything that works for you. I also have a bunch of 125's somewhere I think.

[Slayerik]

I personally wouldnt bother with the repper at all. Get your resists up and help out that big ass plate, it will save you cap and absorb more that the repper would ever repair in a real fight. I'd go with an explosive hardener...or a cap power relay or something. The small rep is just not good enough for a plated cruiser. If you are worried about repairs after a fight, the small would take you an hour to rep it all anyways, might as well just find somewhere to dock :)

[Vedi]

I'd be interested to see how someone sets up a dps thorax.

I can't make any medium blaster Thorax fitting work if you want a MWD and any sort of defence, not enough powergrid.

Here is what I use:

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Automated I Carapace Restoration
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Fleeting Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Drones: 5xHammerhead II

DPS is 575 with Void M ammo, slightly less (but better tracking & range) with faction. Speed is 1424 m/s. There is no tank. I call it "Glass Cannon Thorax".

Some actual kills with this ship:
http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3
http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=26

It did get blown up by some hac finally, but I've fitted a few more. They are very fun to drive.

[Morat20]

Don't buy the rails--I have quite a few medium guns scattered around, and we can try to hook up and see if I have anything that works for you. I also have a bunch of 125's somewhere I think.

Dual 150s are cheap. I've got stacks of medium turrets sitting around back in Verge, for that matter. (I'm stacking loot that runs between 50k and 200k a pop -- sell it all as mass orders when I move to L4s and the loot changes). Even buying enough for 5 fitted Vexs, plus a contract to move them is pocket change.

Slayerik: CPU is tight -- I couldn't fit an active hardener with that setup, and a passive one just croaks to stacking penalties. A small repper is a better choice, barirng rigs. I'm already at 70%/50%/50%/30% (damn explosives will kill me) resists. I'd have to offload a gun or drop to 800 plate to fit an active hardener. And if I'm dropping to 800 plate, I'm moving to a Medium repper anyways.

The repper is just there to buy me a few minutes. Notice the lack of an AB or MWD on that setup -- it's really not there for a sustained tank, it's there to kill frigs and interceptors. They have to punch through 1500 shields, and then 7k of armor (and that with a small repper going), which is a lot to ask of frigs and interceptors when you have four medium turrets eating at you and drones that can beat the shit out of you starting at 80km out and fly a lot faster than your average small-gang interceptor setup.

I mean, hell, the Warrior II's are doing something like 110 DPS just by themselves. I don't know what those interceptors that have been hassling us do, damage-wise, or how thick a skin they have, but that's a LOT to ask a frig-sized ship to take.

How much damage can they dish out, anyways?

[ajax34i]

I love Vexors.  That ship can turn into almost half-a-Hulk or a nice valuables-transporter at the drop of a hat.  Gonna so be able to fly that setup above soon.

[Hoax]

I'm thinking that is the final list?  Moved some stuff around, added ceptors to it and reordered the ships that might work list to reflect how likely it seems to be that they would be useful.

With the list in mind I for one intend to bring into the neighborhood:
3xOmen for throw away setup testing because I already own 3 insured Omen from way back.
1xHarbinger, I've never flown it and I've been wanting to, my gunnery is solid and I have BC IV.  Hopefully I can keep it alive for a bit.
Coercers, lots of them.  Which means I'll be training Destroyers to IV starting Monday when I finish with my current V skill I'm working on.

[Slayerik]

Don't buy the rails--I have quite a few medium guns scattered around, and we can try to hook up and see if I have anything that works for you. I also have a bunch of 125's somewhere I think.

Dual 150s are cheap. I've got stacks of medium turrets sitting around back in Verge, for that matter. (I'm stacking loot that runs between 50k and 200k a pop -- sell it all as mass orders when I move to L4s and the loot changes). Even buying enough for 5 fitted Vexs, plus a contract to move them is pocket change.

Slayerik: CPU is tight -- I couldn't fit an active hardener with that setup, and a passive one just croaks to stacking penalties. A small repper is a better choice, barirng rigs. I'm already at 70%/50%/50%/30% (damn explosives will kill me) resists. I'd have to offload a gun or drop to 800 plate to fit an active hardener. And if I'm dropping to 800 plate, I'm moving to a Medium repper anyways.

The repper is just there to buy me a few minutes. Notice the lack of an AB or MWD on that setup -- it's really not there for a sustained tank, it's there to kill frigs and interceptors. They have to punch through 1500 shields, and then 7k of armor (and that with a small repper going), which is a lot to ask of frigs and interceptors when you have four medium turrets eating at you and drones that can beat the shit out of you starting at 80km out and fly a lot faster than your average small-gang interceptor setup.

I guess for that purpose it is ok, in 90% of real fights the small repper is pretty bad however. It takes 4 cycles to equal one Medium. If you are targeted in most fights, the small repper is useless and will buy you maybe a few seconds..  But I see what you are looking at doing with the setup.

I'd personally pull the mediums for light guns or projectile guns (for no cap use) which would free up tons of CPU...run a real tank and have an MWD, cause well any ship without an MWD in small gang is pretty horrible. Hope you don't need to reapproach a gate! Let your drones do the work and the guns just a minor deterrance. To each is own of course.