#3 guild in the US quits WoW.

[Koyasha]

I haven't played a tank for a while, so it's been a while since I remember what the numbers are, but doesn't a 20% drop in avoidance also make you vulnerable to crushing blows from heroic bosses?

People wouldn't stack avoidance so much if it wasn't for the crushing blow mechanic that NEEDS 104% or so avoidance to prevent instagibs from hard-hitting raid bosses.

[Llava]

I hate to break it to you, but the real powergamers don't run around clearing the place with prot pally holy priest mage*3. They take what they have at the moment and make it work.

True.

[Simond]

I haven't played a tank for a while, so it's been a while since I remember what the numbers are, but doesn't a 20% drop in avoidance also make you vulnerable to crushing blows from heroic bosses?

People wouldn't stack avoidance so much if it wasn't for the crushing blow mechanic that NEEDS 104% or so avoidance to prevent instagibs from hard-hitting raid bosses.

Apparently, none of the bosses in SP do crushing blows.
Oh, and the debuff goes away at a certain point in time - possibly after the first full clear?

[Fordel]

Goes away after phase 3 of the invasion is my understanding.

[Paelos]

I hate to break it to you, but the real powergamers don't run around clearing the place with prot pally holy priest mage*3. They take what they have at the moment and make it work.

True.

Well yeah. When you're overgeared, class balance is meaningless.

[K9]

Goes away after phase 3 of the invasion is my understanding.

Got a link for that? I'm just wondering because at the current rate phase three is going to be over within the next two resets, which makes it seem like an even more pointless mechanic.

[Gobbeldygook]

People wouldn't stack avoidance so much if it wasn't for the crushing blow mechanic that NEEDS 104% or so avoidance to prevent instagibs from hard-hitting raid bosses.

You either completely misunderstand how removing crushing blows works for tanks or have an utterly exaggerated view of the benefit of a passive uncrushable gear set.  I don't know which, so I'm going to assume you mean the first since the second one takes longer to explain.

My warrior would be uncrushable if I was naked save my shield.  Paladins take slightly more thought, but it's still achievable in kara gear.  Druids ignore our weird discussions of mechanics and shit in the woods.

Edit: Most paladins would have become crushable under the debuff, but this would have only required they play around a little with their actual gear load-out.  As was pointed out above, Blizzard foresaw this and so none of the sunwell bosses seen so far crush; my guess is that the crushing blow mechanic is going to be taken out back and put down like old yeller in WOTLK.

[Montague]

Goes away after phase 3 of the invasion is my understanding.

Got a link for that? I'm just wondering because at the current rate phase three is going to be over within the next two resets, which makes it seem like an even more pointless mechanic.

Cockblock. I guess its slightly more elegant than overtuning the boss to hell and then nerfing it next patch.

[K9]

Goes away after phase 3 of the invasion is my understanding.

Got a link for that? I'm just wondering because at the current rate phase three is going to be over within the next two resets, which makes it seem like an even more pointless mechanic.

Cockblock. I guess its slightly more elegant than overtuning the boss to hell and then nerfing it next patch.

I thought that's what the gates were for 

[Fordel]

That's what Brutalis is for from what I've read. The general vibe seems to be "You haven't been farming BT for six months? Well have fun!"

[Paelos]

That's what Brutalis is for from what I've read. The general vibe seems to be "You haven't been farming BT for six months? Well have fun!"

Yeah the raid has to do 27,777 DPS. That's at least 1750 DPS per DPS raider. That's totally insane.

Just as a reference, that kind of DPS would take Gruul down in 2 minutes flat, somewhere near the 4th grow.

[SurfD]

My point exactly.  I was trying to express the point that it's not so hard because they do X more damage and have Y more hit points.  There's real strategy involved in dealing with all that craziness.

There's strategy to a point. Then somebody posts how to min/max it with the right classes, and that's that. For example, I'd never walk into the place without a warlock, period. That sort of starts to limit your class choices on that alone.

The fact is, you're comming across as the real min/maxer. I hate to break it to you, but the real powergamers don't run around clearing the place with prot pally holy priest mage*3. They take what they have at the moment and make it work. It's actually the "casuals" who are so damn rigid about what classes they take because "you NEED A MAGE AND A WARLOCK ZOMG NO WE CAN'T DO IT ANI OTHUAR WAI!!!!@!@!@!!" Also, "omg need t6 to kill kael".

You want to bitch about power gamers and min-maxers, fine. Just don't be a hypocrite and talk about never doing it without a certain class (min-maxing at its finest).  Oh and, learn to LoS and use spell reflect+thunderclap.

Case in point.  My first heroic Magisters Terrace run?  Me (feral Druid tank in t4, 1 piece of t5, and some Badge / PVP gear), 2 shadow priests,  a holy / disc priest (i think), and a Boomkin druid.

Our strat for 95% of the trash pulls?  Mindcontroll the fuck out of everything, let the mobs kill each other, and have me standby to taunt something if MC breaks early so the Priest can Re-MC it and continue on rapeing face.  I think the only pulls we had a problem with were the ones with the teleporting, arcane explosion casting Ethreals (they tended to interupt the MC frequently).

Trash packs literally melted themselves.

As to kael, if you can survive to phase 2 and dont have a pheonix up, you basicly win the fight.  Dodge orbs, and wait for gravity lapse to finish, and it's gg.  Hell, a single resto druid could probably solo him from 49% to 0 as long as they didnt decide to hug an orb (gg insane mana regen from recent spirit changes).

And yes, i DID die to the pyroblast + shield combo at about 55%, but it isnt like it actually mattered.

[Chimpy]

That's what Brutalis is for from what I've read. The general vibe seems to be "You haven't been farming BT for six months? Well have fun!"

Yeah the raid has to do 27,777 DPS. That's at least 1750 DPS per DPS raider. That's totally insane.

Just as a reference, that kind of DPS would take Gruul down in 2 minutes flat, somewhere near the 4th grow.

28k raid DPS really is not that difficult to manage for t6 guilds, but Brutallus's dmg output on 3 tanks requires you to have more healing/tanking than you would on a typical DPS burn fight. Which is somewhat like Patchwerk 2.0.

[Phunked]

I hate to break it to you, but the real powergamers don't run around clearing the place with prot pally holy priest mage*3. They take what they have at the moment and make it work.

True.

Well yeah. When you're overgeared, class balance is meaningless.

Was very difficult to be overgeared a week after the xpac hit and there was a massive gear reset. The fact that I was tanking with a petrified lichen guard should tell you something.

Not to mention our shiny new alliance shaman rocking all of 800 healing.

[Phunked]

That's what Brutalis is for from what I've read. The general vibe seems to be "You haven't been farming BT for six months? Well have fun!"

Yeah the raid has to do 27,777 DPS. That's at least 1750 DPS per DPS raider. That's totally insane.

Just as a reference, that kind of DPS would take Gruul down in 2 minutes flat, somewhere near the 4th grow.

28k raid DPS really is not that difficult to manage for t6 guilds, but Brutallus's dmg output on 3 tanks requires you to have more healing/tanking than you would on a typical DPS burn fight. Which is somewhat like Patchwerk 2.0.

Not really. We do it with 7 healers (instead of the 8 most guild bring when they wipe at 1-5% because they miss enrage by ~15seconds). You just need to be smart with the healers you bring: we use 2 resto druids, 2 holy pallies, 1 holy priest and 2 resto shaman. That's as close to being balanced as you're going to get with 7 healers. Assuming you tanks do 400dps each (not hard), the raid dps requirements go like this:

27.7k - 3(400) = 26500, to be done by 15 dpsers (3 tanks, 7 healers).

That works out to 1770 DPS per person.

The fight is almost entirely tank and spank, and one a fight like that most pure dps classes can easily break 2k. If they can't, they don't have the right spec/right rotation/have been to like 1 Illidan kill.

Yes you need to have cleared the past content more than once. Not 24 times (6 months of farm). You just need the right group synergy and to not be a moron about setting up your raid. I'm sure that 5-6 illidan kills would be more than adequate.

 

[Threash]

A rogue in the top guild on my server did 2.7k dps on the fight when they killed him.  I usually mana around 1500 without stacking lots of consumables or going all out, i don't think it would be a problem to push 1700 with everything going.

[Merusk]

This DPS discussion brings to mind a question that's been bothering me.  What mods are folks typically using to chart DPS.  I run SWstats, Recount AND Damage meters.  Each one has WILDLY varying stated DPS.   For example, I pull ~700-800 on Recount throughout a full raid, but DM lists me at 1200 or better. (I want more T5, dammit! Drop my pants, Leo!!) SWstats falls somewhere in the middle.

Sometimes I think it's simply due to "in combat" time varying between meters, since I tend to pull aggro and/ or die at least twice a raid (thanks insane trash mob AOEs!) Seems like one counts "any time the raid is in combat" another counts "from the time YOU enter combat, until the last person in the raid exits" and the last "when you enter combat until you exit."   It's true for looking at individual fights as well, though, so it's quite confusing.

[Phunked]

This DPS discussion brings to mind a question that's been bothering me.  What mods are folks typically using to chart DPS.  I run SWstats, Recount AND Damage meters.  Each one has WILDLY varying stated DPS.   For example, I pull ~700-800 on Recount throughout a full raid, but DM lists me at 1200 or better. (I want more T5, dammit! Drop my pants, Leo!!) SWstats falls somewhere in the middle.

Sometimes I think it's simply due to "in combat" time varying between meters, since I tend to pull aggro and/ or die at least twice a raid (thanks insane trash mob AOEs!) Seems like one counts "any time the raid is in combat" another counts "from the time YOU enter combat, until the last person in the raid exits" and the last "when you enter combat until you exit."   It's true for looking at individual fights as well, though, so it's quite confusing.

Most people use WWS for DPS analysis after the fight is over.

You take the time in combat, in seconds (from pull till dead boss) (A). You take the damage you did (B). You divide B by A. There's your DPS. Probably the most reliable method.

For meters running during the fight, I would use recount. Reset it before every boss. DPS on trash means nothing (although please do try to do some damage).

[Fordel]

A more useful on the fly measurement is simply damage done.

[Phunked]

A more useful on the fly measurement is simply damage done.

That

[Merusk]

That doesn't help me compare e-peens to other folks, though, just the folks in my guild.   

As I'm consistently #1 or #2 on straight "damage done" (in fights where my pet is allowed to live  ) I'm just trying to figure out if my guild mates suck ass, or if I'm simply doing really well.

[UnSub]

Dammit, my post got ate.

In short: Blizzard have gotten very complacent with that US $10 m per week in profit that comes in throught their doors. They could (and probably should) be burying their competitors with new content for WoW.

Who are their competitors however?  WAR and AoC are coming along soonish - however they seem to have a slightly different mindset, that being more PVP focussed.  If you want a PvE game to whack foozles - theres noone out there or on the horizon.  I'm sure Blizzard has a war chest if they need it, but for now they have plenty of time to make World of Starcraft or whatever, work on the WoW expansion, and roll in their piles of money.  Which is where most of the money is going - not in investment, but in rolling in piles of money - cause thats what you do if you have a wildly successful product.

Yeah, I'm late coming back to this...

The competition is every MMO that has already launched and plans to launch during WoW's lifespan. WoW is the top dog in the p2p MMO genre, so it's the biggest target. Right now, they are rolling in cash, but that doesn't guarantee the situation will be maintained permanently. I don't subscribe to the great WoW-killer theory, but I do think WoW will see it's player base eroded as new MMOs launch that do certain things better than it does and attracts the casual player / guilds / raiders elsewhere.

What WoW should be doing is working out what drives certain groups of players and then releasing content each quarter that caters to that. Right now it seems (from my outsider point of view) that PvPers and raiders are catered to - the RPers, the casuals, the dollmakers etc aren't. WoW could afford to be developing for all levels of their game at the same time and releasing free updates that keep players hooked instead of the apparent "here's a new raid and some gear for it - come get it! For those who don't raid ... look over there! SHINY!".

WoW could easily be setting the standard for content release in the industry. Hell, if 15 people working on CoH/V can put out 3 well-received free content packs a year and also run events and patches, I think the OMG-we're-rich Blizzard folk coudl be doing a lot more.

[Threash]

Right now it seems (from my outsider point of view) that PvPers and raiders are catered to - the RPers, the casuals, the dollmakers etc aren't.

Ehh... atm the only ones being catered too ARE the casuals.  The pvpers and raiders are all ready to jump ship to the first thing that comes along.

[Valmorian]

Ehh... atm the only ones being catered too ARE the casuals.  The pvpers and raiders are all ready to jump ship to the first thing that comes along.

Good riddance to them, too.  If anything I'd love to see some of the fluff I hear about from other games added to WoW: The "appearance" slots from EQ2/LOTRO, more crafting options and the like.  The fewer "HARDCORE!!!!" instances and the like, the better.

[Merusk]

To be completly fair.. it's the Casual Raiders (a subset of BOTH camps) that's getting stuff like badges and increased boss money from "old" bosses tossed at them.

The badge rewards are also nice, but don't fit all specs, so if you're raiding as anything other than an offspec for specific classes, you're still needing to kill big baddies to fully gear-out.   The money is also nice.. if completly useless.  ( I give loans for epic mounts I have so much money.. and I still have 3.6k laying about doing nothing thanks to the new dailies.)

PVPers are always ready to jump-ship at new shiny, provided the game looks like an upgrade.  There hasn't been "the one game!" for them yet, and I dobut there ever WILL be.. as all games have learned to separate the wolf from the sheep to a greater degree than "the good ol' days."

Hardcore Raiders are also typically willing to jump-ship as soon as they get bored.  They did it in EQ for DAOC (and then right back when they realized "whoops not the game for me..") and they'll do it for the next uber pve game.  Hell, if they were TRULY pissed they'd be jumping-ship to EQ2 or Vanguard to give them a shot, but it's they're low-profile for e-peening.  

I agree on the "appearance" stuff.  However, most of Blizz's dev staff is still from the e-peen hardcore MMOer crowd.  That won't happen for a while, if ever because they simply don't "get it." 

[Simond]

Right now it seems (from my outsider point of view) that PvPers and raiders are catered to - the RPers, the casuals, the dollmakers etc aren't.

Ehh... atm the only ones being catered too ARE the casuals.  The pvpers and raiders are all ready to jump ship to the first thing that comes along.

Oh no, Blizzard is only catering to 95%+ of their playerbase! Woe, woe and thrice woe!

[Threash]

Hey i didnt say it was a BAD thing, i was just clearing up some misconceptions.  Pvp is in the gutter because of exponentionally increasing melee damage vs static survibavility and the grand new raid zone that took months to develop is already on farm status for guilds who've been farming the previous one for the last eight months.

[Dren]

I have been wondering if this latest change to the PvP Arenas will sour some of the more wolf/sheep types.  Making it so teams are matched up based on both personal and team rating keeps the well-geared playing the well-geared.  I haven't done many arena matches since the change yet, but the little I have done showed a huge difference.

Yes, we won quite a bit more often, but still lost some too.  The noticeable difference was that the matches were very even.  Before you would go from an evenly matched fight to a total blow out from a group in Season 3 full gear.  Now all of the fights are challenging, but never a complete blow out.  In my mind, it is much much better this way.

For some, however, I'm thinking they just ruined their wolf/sheep fun.

[Threash]

I have been wondering if this latest change to the PvP Arenas will sour some of the more wolf/sheep types.  Making it so teams are matched up based on both personal and team rating keeps the well-geared playing the well-geared.  I haven't done many arena matches since the change yet, but the little I have done showed a huge difference.

No it doesn't, personal rating resets when you leave a team.  All the change intended to do was fix the personal rating exploits.  You will still be fighting the same amount of full season three geared folks at the 1500 bracket as before.

[Dren]

I have been wondering if this latest change to the PvP Arenas will sour some of the more wolf/sheep types.  Making it so teams are matched up based on both personal and team rating keeps the well-geared playing the well-geared.  I haven't done many arena matches since the change yet, but the little I have done showed a huge difference.

No it doesn't, personal rating resets when you leave a team.  All the change intended to do was fix the personal rating exploits.  You will still be fighting the same amount of full season three geared folks at the 1500 bracket as before.

It goes by the highest personal rating you have for all of your arenas I believe.  If you dropped ALL of your arena teams and started over, this would be true.  I doubt that happens often since that is what people use to actually purchase the best items.  Now purchasing said items is based on both your team and personal ratings so my guess is that people will retain their teams that allow them the best stuff.  However, doing this means they will always be fighting higher tier groups on all of their teams (2v2, 3v3, and 5v5.)

I suppose people could drop all of their teams, but I'm not sure what the benefit would be.  They'd basically only get the wolf/sheep success at that point I guess.

[Threash]

Are you SURE it goes by your highest rating in any team? that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be honest.

[Chimpy]

Are you SURE it goes by your highest rating in any team? that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be honest.

You have to have both a personal and a team rating over the minimums in whatever bracket said personal ratings are in to buy the shoulders/weaps.

[Dren]

Are you SURE it goes by your highest rating in any team? that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to be honest.

You have to have both a personal and a team rating over the minimums in whatever bracket said personal ratings are in to buy the shoulders/weaps.

Yes, this I know IS true.  I'm not sure about how people are matched up.

However, I don't understand why you think that doesn't make sense.  It makes perfect sense to me.  The game is trying to recognize people that have good gear.  If you have a high score in any of your teams, then you most likely have good gear.  This system stops the nonsense of selling spots on high ranked teams to gain points quicker.  It also stops people from pulling in "Ringers" to get their team stats up quicker.

The end result should be that if you have the gear, you play against people with similar gear.  Are you suggesting it shouldn't be this way?

[Gobbeldygook]

You're wrong.  It matches you up in brackets depending on your rating in that bracket.  It completely ignores your gear and your rating in any other bracket.  This is because some people have gear and suck ass while others do not and are excellent.  Edit: In addition, some classes are much stronger in one bracket than in others.

Here is what that change is intended to combat: What people would do is get some friends together and start playing.  5's worked best because of the short queues, but any bracket worked.  The team would get up to wherever it capped out at(like 1600 or 1700), then you'd swap in new players (Or maybe just one guy) and deliberately tank the rating.  Once the rating was low, you'd bring back the first group of players who would take the team back up to wherever it capped out at.  The result is that the A Team's personal rating would continue to go up because they were winning matches - even though it was solely vs weak players.

[Dren]

Like I said, I didn't know the mechanics behind it.  I'd say it still has an effect at keeping like-geared-skilled groups fighting each other better anyway.  No, it doesn't stop a group of geared up people from starting over at 1500 and blowing everyone away up to 1850, but there isn't much of an incentive to do that anymore.  That is unless they just like to blow people away.

*Edit* Still the rewards portion is still dependent on your best rating for personal and team across all groups.  That part was right.