WoW speaks about gold farming/power leveling.

[Sky]

Derail.

You could have an alt in UO (and later in SWG). But you could also customize your character. So your SK could have stealth, but no pet or something. Min/maxed to death, but a cool system imo.

[Slyfeind]

Plus, that bit that Darniaq mentioned he loved?  Drove me apeshit in SWG.  Discarding advancement for other advancement is crap, regardless of the game.  Suppose someone said, "Sure, you can have a Rogue alt in EQ2.. but for every level you gain your Shadow Knight is going to go down a level."  It'd be bullshit, but somehow it's "ok" for UO/ SWG to do it.

In UO/SWG, you would get all those skills, all the time. With alts, you can only play one or the other. So I'd think it's more like, without that balancing system, you could have a Rogue alt in EQ2, and for every level you gain, you get Shadow Knight powers.

[Dtrain]

There's also the FFXI profession system - apart from the cockupuncture intrinsic to the game itself, it's fairly good.

Your character can change professions at any time (professions are like classes,) and progress on any given profession is always saved. Additionally you have a primary profession, which you play at it's full level, and a secondary profession which is played at half the level of the primary profession. A secondary profession usually offers something viable to the mix as well.

Again though, it's got some problems:

Unlocked professions make an already grindy game feel exceptionally grindy, and there are usually profession combos that are far superior to all others.

[WindupAtheist]

You're a raider who cries about "discarding advancement".  UO wasn't for you.

[Venkman]

   Plus, that bit that Darniaq mentioned he loved?  Drove me apeshit in SWG.  Discarding advancement for other advancement is crap, regardless of the game.  Suppose someone said, "Sure, you can have a Rogue alt in EQ2.. but for every level you gain your Shadow Knight is going to go down a level."  It'd be bullshit, but somehow it's "ok" for UO/ SWG to do it.

In your example, yea, that's bullshit. But UO didn't have classes. You could reduce the Swordsmanship skill while increasing the Smithing skill to get the bonus to Hammer damage (going by memory here, and that was a long time ago). And there were times you didn't need to hit absolute maximum 100 points to be effective. Back when I was farming Dragons in, err, Destard I think, I had a combination of Magery and Barding skills that worked really well. Switched over to taming for a bit when T2A came out. I liked my zergling troop of Ostards. Sure screwed up the PKers enough to get me outta there

The point wasn't that this was a better system. It was that it allowed for more player discovery. Sure there was plenty of min/max 7xGMers (maxxed out in 7 skills to have spent all of the skill points you could get at that point, which was 700). But that was not the only way of playing. Nowadays most DIKUs just transfer that level of "choice" to whether you spend a dozen hours raiding for some stat adjustment, or a hundred hours doing so.

It's really not locked behind any other currencies as you implied, because the direct exchange of Gold -> Arena points happens on a daily basis, and clearly people do feel that the points are worth buying for gold/cash, or there wouldn't be the current scenario.  The only benefit to the people selling the points is that conversion back to cash, and as long as that supply/demand wheel keeps churning, people will continue to do it.

You know the Arena stuff better than I do. I could never be bothered with it. The cash doesn't seem all that worth it for the investment they made to get to that level, but obviously it is to some people. And this lines up with people selling raid slots so newbs can get spots on boss drops.

It's really hard to give a crap about RMTing though. I don't know that 75% of the WoW players are into Arenas at some level, but I would say north of 75% of WoW players couldn't care any less about RMTing. I know dozens of folks whose first MMO is WoW and have thought nothing of buying gold for themselves, kids, family, etc. And they're doing this at level 40 

[Dtrain]

You're a raider who cries about "discarding advancement".  UO wasn't for you.

Who was Ultima for anyways? The millions of people who went on to play SWG?

Oh wait...

It can't just be that UO was a crap game, could it? Don't pretend that a big part of the vaunted freedom of choice in the skill system was the result of breaking the EULA with EZ Macro. Don't tell me that half the fun of the game wasn't exploiting design flaws and making other people feel shitty.

The only thing that UO had going for it over countless MUDs on the scene at the time were it's graphics. Even Brad McQuaid knew that.

[Calantus]

UO didn't do anything to eliminate alts. You could mix around your skills yes, but you were locked into your skills for a significant time depending on the skills in question. You could make small changes to your template, sure, so the equivalent of switching from a warlock to a mage in WoW was relatively common (people changed from old fotm mage setups to new all the time). If you wanted something different like a thief, GM crafter, townie, or whatever you were much better off making a new character for that template.

[Venkman]

UO is like Saturday Night Live. Whether one liked it or not, that opinion is based on a specific era of the game. It's been around so long and changed so much, it's almost impossible to have liked or disliked the total experience.

I personally liked it for the 18 months from 1999 to 2000 that I played it. I could never get back into it though the times I've tried. What I liked about UO was either changed enough or no longer there to like it again. Much like SWG. Maybe this is one of the core challenges for sandbox games vs DIKU in general.

• Sandbox game- it is constantly changing, and being a sandbox, it can change in any area at any time for any reason. The game could change so much as to be nigh unrecognizable upon return.
• DIKU- Most change is either is side-features, like housing or crafting, or to add more ways to grind. The core game itself hasn't changed. Mostly what has is the "bests" (best gear, best place to grind, best guild, best instances, etc).

That's probably been thought of and debated out by now though... here's me catching up

[Sky]

It's really hard to give a crap about RMTing though. I don't know that 75% of the WoW players are into Arenas at some level, but I would say north of 75% of WoW players couldn't care any less about RMTing. I know dozens of folks whose first MMO is WoW and have thought nothing of buying gold for themselves, kids, family, etc. And they're doing this at level 40 

Probably  at this point, but my only concern is the in-game impact. Sure, people will farm lucrative stuff no matter what the reason. But adding a real-money incentive adds another layer of... I don't know. Intenseness? Rudeness? Uncaring? Difference between messing with someone's game playing and messing with someone's business.

Don't pretend that a big part of the vaunted freedom of choice in the skill system was the result of breaking the EULA with EZ Macro. Don't tell me that half the fun of the game wasn't exploiting design flaws and making other people feel shitty.

Give it up man. You don't get it and you never will. And that's ok.

[WindupAtheist]

It can't just be that UO was a crap game, could it?

[Ratman_tf]

UO was a crap game as much as any of them are crap games.

[Dren]

/ranton
Through all this talk about selling gold/leveling services/arean points/raiding spots, etc. I just have to ask, "To what end?"  I'm still looking for the punchline.  People are paying real money to get their characters to max level and to max items so they can ...

What?  So they can what?  Stand at the bank in a major city and slowly spin so all can see?

Everything I see here is about people obtaining stuff, but that stuff is really only designed to get you more stuff.  If you bypass the entire system and get the very best stuff right off the bat, all you have left to do is wait for the next expansion?  So you can bypass it and get the best stuff and wait again?

/rantoff


Gold alone doesn't get you anything but nice mounts and items for twinking.  You might get some basic items at 70, but without faction you will be really limited.  If there was an in-game RMT for gold, then perhaps that would be the system used to use for currency to these 3rd party agencies.  However, the basic issue is still there.  At some point, you will have to give the 3rd party your account to level you (the original complaint by Blizzard.)

Selling gold ingame may solve some issues, but the original problem that started this thread would still exist.  In fact, it would make payment to the 3rd party a bit easier for them and much harder to track.  Player buys gold from Blizzard.  Player now uses this gold ingame to pay 3rd party.  That gold is clean now because it was obtained legally.  Now the 3rd party just has to put the money up on the market at just below what Blizzard charges to make their RL money.  Even if Blizzard set the price incredibly low, the 3rd party would just increase their ingame gold cost for their services to adapt.

[spiralyguy]

I guess this comes down to the fundamental argument of $$$ vs time.  Should players be allowed to legally buy their way out of content?  If it benefits the game developer, I don't see why not.  If you have more money than time, buy your way through.  If you have more time than money, grind it out.  Either way, it's about satisfying the needs of the customer in a way that doesn't negatively impact subscriber retention.  Right?

It does have an impact on subscriber retention.  People who don't want to spend outrageous amounts of money to remain competitive in online gaming are not interested in competing in a game where players can use their IRL financial status to buy their way to the top of the game.  If everyone in WoW was simply encouraged to pay Blizzard $250 for their season 3 pvp gear or their legendary blades of azzinoth there is no way I would continue playing.  That's a whole new realm of unhealthy addiction I would like to avoid.

[Sky]

It does have an impact on subscriber retention.  People who don't want to spend outrageous amounts of time to remain competitive in online gaming are not interested in competing in a game where players can use their IRL disposable time status to buy their way to the top of the game.  If everyone in WoW was simply encouraged to pay Blizzard 20 hours for their season 3 pvp gear or their legendary blades of azzinoth there is no way I would continue playing.  That's a whole new realm of unhealthy addiction I would like to avoid.

ORLY

[waylander]

WoW dailies are great to generate gold for the casual player. I do about 3 a day for about 35 gold which gives me all the gold I need each week to pay for PVP repairs and a few other things. Of course I don't need 5k epic mounts, but if I did I could do more dailies and probably buy one in about 45 days or less. Most daily quests only take 10-15 minutes tops, so they are good for people who only play an hour or two at a sitting.

[Lantyssa]

I personally liked it for the 18 months from 1999 to 2000 that I played it. I could never get back into it though the times I've tried. What I liked about UO was either changed enough or no longer there to like it again. Much like SWG. Maybe this is one of the core challenges for sandbox games vs DIKU in general.

• Sandbox game- it is constantly changing, and being a sandbox, it can change in any area at any time for any reason. The game could change so much as to be nigh unrecognizable upon return.
• DIKU- Most change is either is side-features, like housing or crafting, or to add more ways to grind. The core game itself hasn't changed. Mostly what has is the "bests" (best gear, best place to grind, best guild, best instances, etc).

Being able to change the world is something many people want to see no matter what style of game.  There is a huge difference between the environment changing and the rules changing though.  No one likes the rules changing out from under them.  Even horrible mechanics get resistance.

Rule changes are not limited to sandbox games.  The rigid DIKU models might make things a little easier to design so changes may not be as warrented, but looking at WoW, DoaC, EQ2, etc. we can see none of these have been perfectly stable.  The difference between these and SWG is that none have gone to the same extremes, and in the long run these others made positive changes.  SWG's problems were with management, not the genre.  The lessons learned apply equally well to all games.  Seeing as they're all DIKU with the exception of UO though, only one style really gets the benefit of their failure.

[Sky]

Waylander, if you're rebutting me, I was just making the point of turning around the idea of money unbalancing a game vs time unbalancing it. Some people have more money than time, some more time than money. Right now (legally) mmo heavily favors those with time. I just made up the numbers, I don't play WoW.

Some day it'd be nice if neither extreme time or money expenditures were rewarded compared to more casual play, but the rabid group apparently must be pleased, and we must EARN that epic gear somehow, because otherwise it's meaningless.

[Merusk]

Waylander, if you're rebutting me, I was just making the point of turning around the idea of money unbalancing a game vs time unbalancing it. Some people have more money than time, some more time than money. Right now (legally) mmo heavily favors those with time. I just made up the numbers, I don't play WoW.

Some day it'd be nice if neither extreme time or money expenditures were rewarded compared to more casual play, but the rabid group apparently must be pleased, and we must EARN that epic gear somehow, because otherwise it's meaningless.

You just described the old school American work ethic.  Work hard, get rewarded.  That's where the whole mindset springs from.

Yes, I know it's counter to the 'current age' work ethic of "coast along, cut & run" AND it's only a game.  But hey, games are all about illusion and doing things we don't do in reality, right? 

[Nebu]

Be interesting to see if there exist tendencies to use cheat codes among differing generations.  Who am I kidding... most people my age don't bother playing games anymore.

[Venkman]

There is. There's been some good books about studies done how just how differently today's tweens think from teens and young adults who one group labeled the "gamer generation" from older adults who grew up in the 70s and 80s and have a very Baby Boomer work ethic.

Through all this talk about selling gold/leveling services/arean points/raiding spots, etc. I just have to ask, "To what end?"

That's what makes this so interesting. There's folks who want to play any game the "right way". There are other folks who don't care how they have fun as long as they're "having fun". And then there's the fact that DIKU-style experiences drive people to acquisition for the sake of acquisition, at a rate that can never remain a constant due to real life.

I've only ever bought one thing with RL cash (a UO house in land-locked Trammel). It was worth it then, for the emotional ties I had to My Very First MMO(tm). Nothing since has come close. But that's just me not buying stuff because there hasn't been anything since I thought was really worth it. However, that first-time feeling can happen to any person in their first MMO. And WoW is the first MMO for a shitton of people.

The best part is that EULA/TOS aside, nobody is fundamentally wrong:

• The buyer is not wrong for wanting to continue to maximize their experience.
• The seller is not wrong because they're feeding a market by fulfilling a need.
• The game developers aren't wrong because they don't want people not playing their game as intended.
• The game publishers aren't wrong because almost no matter what happens, they're getting paid for it anyway.

Someone (or many) are going to argue that I'm wrong for saying that. Obviously I pre-disagree. This is not "thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife" stuff. This is more along the lines of bribing someone to get a better set at a Baseball game. Instancing helps RMTing. Compartmentalized economies help RMT. A shitton of people help RMT. The only bulwark towards absolutely chaotic growth is Blizzard's policies. But if you look at the growth curves for xtrans-based games, ya end up questioning just how much longer flat-fee is going to matter. No matter how big this generation of gamers are, the next one is much bigger.

[Calantus]

Waylander, if you're rebutting me, I was just making the point of turning around the idea of money unbalancing a game vs time unbalancing it. Some people have more money than time, some more time than money. Right now (legally) mmo heavily favors those with time. I just made up the numbers, I don't play WoW.

Some day it'd be nice if neither extreme time or money expenditures were rewarded compared to more casual play, but the rabid group apparently must be pleased, and we must EARN that epic gear somehow, because otherwise it's meaningless.

The point is I think you have to earn it, because it is meaningless without having to earn it. That could change if choices were actually relevant, that you could be proud of a really good setup not because you earnt it but because it's a sweet setup. In WoW you pick up a cookie-cutter spec and wear whatever decent gear dropped for you and away you go.

That's if you want gear to matter of course.

[Dtrain]

UO was a crap game as much as any of them are crap games.

Agreed. And they sort of all are crap games. That's the whole point of this derail, if I recall correctly.

I'm reminded of the raging EQ1 debate that happened after that hysterical review was posted. An unbiased new review of UO would be just as brutal.

And it's not really a question of me 'not getting it.' I played both of those games and liked them very much at one point in time. I've moved on, and whatever made those games fun for me is something that exists only in fond memories. If the game itself was fun, I could pick it up and enjoy it today.

[Slyfeind]

And it's not really a question of me 'not getting it.' I played both of those games and liked them very much at one point in time. I've moved on, and whatever made those games fun for me is something that exists only in fond memories. If the game itself was fun, I could pick it up and enjoy it today.

Then it's more like you don't get it anymore? Because honestly I could put it up now and think "This is better than WOW." (In fact I've been thinking of going back to it.) It's clearly not mass market, but it does have its audience.

[Ratman_tf]

It's clearly not mass market, but it does have its audience.

Koreans?

[Ralence]

/ranton
Through all this talk about selling gold/leveling services/arean points/raiding spots, etc. I just have to ask, "To what end?"  I'm still looking for the punchline.  People are paying real money to get their characters to max level and to max items so they can ...

  I personally agree with you, I don't see the point of it.  Right now I get pretty excited when my WoW 3v3 arena team wins 5/10 games for the week, for me, the playing is the fun part, we lose a lot (more often than not), but we have fun.  A few of my guildmates, however, hate the whole situation that currently exists with the Arena points/ratings selling, for them, it's not fun to lose to someone better geared than them, and when they spent the time for what they have, and others don't, it really puts a rash on their ass.

  I guess I'm just the old guy that doesn't give a shit what anyone else does, as long as it doesn't interrupt me having fun.  For them, they feel the RMT situation is ruining their fun, and a few of them have stopped playing as a result.

  If someone wants to spend their RL cash to "win" the game, have fun?  It's not as if this is EQ with static "one of a kind" mobs that only 20 people can experience per week.  If anything, I'd think those that rush to the end just get bored and quit anyways, especially in a game so based around gear/char advancement.

  Perhaps that's the real reason for the Blizzard intervention, people getting to the "end" without spending the required timesink investment can be a threat to retention?  Hell if I know.

[Jimbo]

When I played the heck out of Diablo II and UO, it didn't seem to need a lot of RMT, (UO I could see for a house since that was shitty if you hadn't started like I did) I could get gear and gold for not a lot of time invested.  I could start and stop without feeling behind the power curve.  CoX sort of has that feeling once you get someone up past 35, then you can start making money (still a pain to transfers influence back and forth).

I think of bowling, I can buy a ball that is $1000, buy shoes $100, buy a special glove $100, a bitching shirt and plaid pants, and some nachos and I'll still not get above 100.  Just because I'm rich and want to spend for good equipment doesn't mean I can use it effectively.

To me if you got it by time investment vs spending money doesn't matter to me, it is what you do with it once you get it.

[Ratman_tf]

When I played the heck out of Diablo II and UO, it didn't seem to need a lot of RMT, (UO I could see for a house since that was shitty if you hadn't started like I did) I could get gear and gold for not a lot of time invested.  I could start and stop without feeling behind the power curve.  CoX sort of has that feeling once you get someone up past 35, then you can start making money (still a pain to transfers influence back and forth).

I think of bowling, I can buy a ball that is $1000, buy shoes $100, buy a special glove $100, a bitching shirt and plaid pants, and some nachos and I'll still not get above 100.  Just because I'm rich and want to spend for good equipment doesn't mean I can use it effectively.

To me if you got it by time investment vs spending money doesn't matter to me, it is what you do with it once you get it.

To a point, I agree with you. But I mentioned over in the WoW forums about battleground twinkage. With two players of roughly equal skill, the most twinked has a dramatic advantage. I draw the line at buying gold, but that would get me the Nethercleft enhancement (appx. 250-300 gold on my server) instead of settling for Cobrahide. Plus all the enchanting mats I could buy for skillgrinding.

[Sky]

I admit I totally ignore the pvp aspect of it. That's where it gets really ugly, because unfair advantages (time OR money) make it very not fun for the disadvantaged player.

I wish they'd dump EQ2's pvp servers. Hate to get nerf batted because of a minority rules server.

[Furiously]

I thought EQ was dumping the exchange server business because there was too much fraud? (People buy item with stolen credit card, trade itto someone else for plat, Buy something else, trade it for plat, then sell the plat.) The chain is too large at that point and you have to just make it a loss. Or piss everyone off.

[Merusk]

I thought EQ was dumping the exchange server business because there was too much fraud? (People buy item with stolen credit card, trade itto someone else for plat, Buy something else, trade it for plat, then sell the plat.) The chain is too large at that point and you have to just make it a loss. Or piss everyone off.

There's fraud in the system because of the method it's done.  There's no escrow house, and it's all third party to third party. SOE was just looking for a way to make the e-bay listing fee on items, not to implement full on RMT.  RMT where you buy the items/ gold/ levels directly from the company is about the only way to avoid that fraud system and completly do-away with RMT farmers/ PL services.  Of course it again begs the question, "why play at all if everything can be bought?"

[tazelbain]

Like MTG.

[Merusk]

Ah, of course. Everything should just be a card/ miniatures game whose central design idea is getting idiots to shell out $400+ dollars every 6 months because the latest set came out with the "i win" gimmick that crushes all the "i win" gimmicks from the last two sets.  Oh sure, there'll be SOME counters that aren't crushed, but those were relegated to pointless 'non-ladder' game play by the rules system that says "oh, no son. You have to keep buying whole sets, not just a few upgrades."

Yeah THAT wouldn't suck more than the current games AT ALL.

[UnSub]

Of course it again begs the question, "why play at all if everything can be bought?"

Because it's fun?

Waiting for the shiney to drop isn't half as fun as having and using the shiney. The secret of internal RMT is 1) making it cheap, which means players buy it easily and it undercuts any external, fraud-riddled external RMT and 2) getting rid of any way for players to earn RL cash off their characters (dupe bugs, auction houses, etc). I mean, if it cost me $80 to auto-powerlvl my character to maxlvl through an authorised internal RMT channel, or $1 to buy a rare item I need for my character, why would I go to an unauthorised, risky channel?

[Slyfeind]

Of course it again begs the question, "why play at all if everything can be bought?"

Because it's fun?

Waiting for the shiney to drop isn't half as fun as having and using the shiney.

What would use the shiney on if you already have everything?

[Calantus]

Of course it again begs the question, "why play at all if everything can be bought?"

Because it's fun?

Waiting for the shiney to drop isn't half as fun as having and using the shiney.

What would use the shiney on if you already have everything?

That only works if getting the shiny is the only reason to play. Typically when people buy things in MMOGs they are trying to skip one or more aspects of the game they don't enjoy/have no time for in order to play one aspect they do. Dropping money on a fully kitted WoW arena character skips the leveling process and the BG grind and you can get right to arena. Someone buying ISK to replace their losses in a war is skipping the missioning/ratting/trading/mining/whatever process in order to get back into the war in a decent ship. In both cases the player is not destroying the game for themselves.