Crafting & Economy in Age of Conan

[sidereal]

I still have not heard anyone say that they enjoy the actual mechanics of crafting. And you can't tell me that people never enjoy the actual mechanics of adventuring because otherwise, why are people playing these games at all? Once they get to your level of apathy expertise, the only things that keep them playing are their social connections, the time they have already invested into the game, the prospect of maxing out their gear, and the occasional expansion. And then eventually even that is not enough, but I don't have a problem with this.

You seem to have gotten the impression from the one I was trying to convey.  Probably my fault.  When I say that combat aggregates something interesting from repetitive, boring tasks, I'm acknowledging that combat is interesting.  I still play MMOs after all.  I enjoy combat.  I also recognize that crafting is the same thing, and I also enjoy that.  You seem to be stuck on the repetitive nature of crafting, but are okay with the repetitive nature of combat.  That's fine, but again it's a matter of taste.  For some reason you're hellbent on proving that combat is more interesting than crafting in existing MMOs.  You can't.

I enjoy the mechanics of crafting, even in simple crafting systems, because I like the momentary experience of making something, even if it's a fake something.  I like selling fake things I made.  I like giving people in my guild fake things I made.  I derive just as much enjoyment from fakely making fake things as you do from fakely swinging a fake sword and killing things that aren't alive.  In complex crafting systems, like those in Eve and ATiTD (and probably SWG, though I never played it), I enjoy it even more.

This is getting pretty far afield from the original topic, which was whether AoC's crafting system is an improvement.  I'd say that requiring I throttle 300 ratkins instead of combining 300 copper bars is pretty much a wash, per our little dustup here.  It's unfortunate that crafting doesn't even start until I've throttled 30000 ratkins, and that will ensure that interest in crafting will not be a motivation for people considering playing AoC.  Instead it'll be an interesting diversion for people who are primarily interested in AoC's primary draw, which I guess is beheading meshes.  Also, the lack of a bidding system will make tradeposts profit heaven for catasses who squat them and scan nonstop for bargains.

[Velorath]

That's fine, but again it's a matter of taste.  For some reason you're hellbent on proving that combat is more interesting than crafting in existing MMOs.  You can't.

There are more good combat systems out there in MMO's than there are good crafting systems.  It's not that combat is inherently more interesting than crafting, or that developers can't make interesting crafting systems, but that's just not the main focus of most of these games, and thus crafting is going to get less development time and dollars than combat.  Out of all the mainstream MMO's I've tried crafting in, EQII was the only one that even seemed to attempt any interactivity during the actual crafting of an item.  It wasn't exactly fun, but it was a step in the right direction.

I derive just as much enjoyment from fakely making fake things as you do from fakely swinging a fake sword and killing things that aren't alive.

The difference is, you seem be saying that you enjoy it regardless of how little effort developers actually put into the creating the system (just about any crafting system allows you to create items and then give them away or sell them), whereas I think very few people here would argue that they get enjoyment out of every combat system (or even the majority of them).

[Lantyssa]

There are more good combat systems out there in MMO's than there are good crafting systems.

Are we playing the same games?  Combat sucks in most MMOs.  Once we're dealing with comparative degrees of suck, one can't really claim to be better than the other.  There are a few good combat systems and a few good crafting and economic ones.

This is of course, ignoring it is all subjective anyways.  A swath of people aren't going to like crafting no matter how good, and another group isn't going to like combat.

[Velorath]

There are more good combat systems out there in MMO's than there are good crafting systems.

Are we playing the same games?  Combat sucks in most MMOs.

Hence the last line of my post.  CoX and WoW dressed up the combat enough to make it fun for a lot of people.  Cases could be made for POTBS's ship to ship combat, and EVE's combat (in a tactical sort of way).  Not a lot of examples of great combat, but I think there are less examples of games where the actual mechanics of crafting an item (as opposed to the economical aspects of crafting) are actually fun.

I like the idea of crafting.  I did the grind up to legendary weaponcrafter in DAOC, which had some of the worst crafting mechanics of all time and didn't even have a good way to sell shit to people until they put housing in.  I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that the concept of crafting in MMO's is a good one, but the mechanics in pretty much every major MMO have been unfun, steaming piles of shit, that don't even let you pretend you're doing something more fun than pressing one button over and over to make stuff.

[Dtrain]

Draconian, reflecting on your post did call to mind the things I liked about SWG crafting. It wasn't a perfect system, but it was a huge step in the right direction.

The little doodads like resource detection, the difference resource properties accounted for, and the renewing nature of resources, while a little rough around the edges in practice were incredibly bright ideas, and exactly the type of smoke and mirrors I'm talking about to conceal the simplicity of "get shit and hit combine."

And as much as you can still reduce any MMO combat system to "get levels and gear and whack the foozle," the smoke and mirrors disguising it are usually much more advanced than those around most crafting systems. (Though SWG is probably a bad example to here as the combat was so remarkably bad - unfocused content, missing end game objectives, PVP imbalances, and a general lack of goals combined to make a bold faced foozle whacking nightmare.)

[Samwise]

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you need to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

I thought EvE disproved this.  If you going to make everyone dependent on crafters than it requires a robust economy.

Yah, I was gonna say, I certainly don't see this happening in EVE. SWG? Yes, but I'm not sure why.. can't buy stuff far away maybe?

Not having played EvE much at all, I'm going to guess that the big difference is that you can buy stuff you want in EvE at a fair market price right away without having to spend lots of time walking to one poorly-stocked shop after another, sending in-game mail to people who are offline and waiting a day for a response, et cetera.  That "robust economy" thing.

The key thing (in my mind) is that it sucks to be dependent on other players in real time, because most people aren't always logged in at the same time you are.  If you can get what you need from other players easily and without requiring direct interaction, it stops sucking.

[Typhon]

[...]If you can get what you need from other players easily and without requiring direct interaction, it stops sucking.

And at that point the only difference from a game where you do all your buyng from an NPC is that the price is set by the "market", rather then by the devs.  For those of us who are largely un-interested in the "sym-wallstreet", it seems like an awful lot of work to get to the same end result.

[Mrbloodworth]

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you need to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

I thought EvE disproved this.  If you going to make everyone dependent on crafters than it requires a robust economy.

Yah, I was gonna say, I certainly don't see this happening in EVE. SWG? Yes, but I'm not sure why.. can't buy stuff far away maybe?

Not having played EvE much at all, I'm going to guess that the big difference is that you can buy stuff you want in EvE at a fair market price right away without having to spend lots of time walking to one poorly-stocked shop after another, sending in-game mail to people who are offline and waiting a day for a response, et cetera.  That "robust economy" thing.

The key thing (in my mind) is that it sucks to be dependent on other players in real time, because most people aren't always logged in at the same time you are.  If you can get what you need from other players easily and without requiring direct interaction, it stops sucking.

Before the NGE, they changed that, you see see all vender's on the planet from town, buy something, but still needed to go get it, just like eve.

[Calantus]

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you need to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

I thought EvE disproved this.  If you going to make everyone dependent on crafters than it requires a robust economy.

Yah, I was gonna say, I certainly don't see this happening in EVE. SWG? Yes, but I'm not sure why.. can't buy stuff far away maybe?

Not having played EvE much at all, I'm going to guess that the big difference is that you can buy stuff you want in EvE at a fair market price right away without having to spend lots of time walking to one poorly-stocked shop after another, sending in-game mail to people who are offline and waiting a day for a response, et cetera.  That "robust economy" thing.

The key thing (in my mind) is that it sucks to be dependent on other players in real time, because most people aren't always logged in at the same time you are.  If you can get what you need from other players easily and without requiring direct interaction, it stops sucking.

From what I remember from EvE you're not even buying from players as far as perception is concerned. You really could just bring in NPCs and have them be the only buyers and sellers without changing much at all, some rare things might be easier to get, some prices may go up or down, but the mechanics wouldn't differ for anyone who doesn't care to look under the hood. One huge part was that while location was important, being able to view things wasn't tied to location anywhere near as much. I'm not sure how far it looked but I remember being able to see items dozens of jumps away. In UO shopping was fun if you were just browsing for shits and giggles, but if you wanted a specific rare item it was pure torture because you had to go all over the world checking shops, checking vendors in the shop, then checking bags on the vendor (and every house could be a shop and houses could be just about everywhere). Especially if it was a ring. God those were annoying to buy.

[tazelbain]

Regional Buy Orders help, so Combat player don't have to run far or do a lot research to get a fair price on the junk they earn in combat.

And at that point the only difference from a game where you do all your buyng from an NPC is that the price is set by the "market", rather then by the devs.  For those of us who are largely un-interested in the "sym-wallstreet", it seems like an awful lot of work to get to the same end result.

The difference is that devs have to set their sell prices very high and the buy prices very low to combat item inflation and money inflation.  But with a transaction between players, no item or money is created and the fair price is determined on the fly by the market.  No developer has the man power to do that.