Crafting & Economy in Age of Conan

[Slayerik]

Crafting is for women.

Signe, will you join my AOC guild?

I kid, I kid.



On a serious note, I'm not sure how crafting could ever be fun, but its probably just me. Maybe if it involved my opponent's bleeding corpse and some of his loot it would be sweet.


EDIT: Well, I guess WoW did that with Battlegrounds :)

[Viin]

Crafting can be fun, if the actual crafting is subcontracted. It's the resource/market games that are fun.

[tmp]

On a serious note, I'm not sure how crafting could ever be fun, but its probably just me.

http://www.puzzlepirates.com/Blacksmithing.xhtml
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/Distilling.xhtml
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/Shipwrightery.xhtml
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/Alchemistry.xhtml

[Slayerik]

Point taken, but I'm still not sure if that really looks fun anyways.

[DraconianOne]

DAoC is the only game I've seen really get any mileage out of crafted armor and weapons.  The addition of jewelcrafting and ability to effortlessly macro to max skill made this so.  

SWG had a fantastic crafting system and an economy that totally depended on it mainly on account of there being little to no way to fully repair items.  If they went bang, you needed a new one.  The only place to get a new one? The crafters.  Individuals could specialise in crafting areas and not only that, but certain players who dedicated their time to ensuring they used the best available resources and creating the best possible items meant that they became renowned for crafting quality goods.  It had it's flaws but the experimentation abilities coupled with quality of resources affecting end product was brilliant. 

The downside was that it could become a second job as I found out after setting up my own little mining empire and shipbuilding business.  Fun while it lasted but I suddenly realised that maintaining vendors, harvesting resources and crafting was taking up all of my time.

[Velorath]

I mean, if players can spend their whole game lives crafting, there will be an awful lot of those industrial types, which might be considered kinda weird for a Conan game.

Conan was the son of a blacksmith.  It wouldn't be all that weird.

[Signe]

I like to craft.  I almost bought LotRO just to be a farmer.

[Xuri]

It's strangely satisfying to smoke pipeweed you've grown and harvested yourself.

[Nebu]

It's strangely satisfying to smoke pipeweed you've grown and harvested yourself.

I thought this was a gaming discussion?!?!

[Slayerik]

Ah, let the girls talk about their arts and crafts! 

[Xanthippe]

I like to craft.  I almost bought LotRO just to be a farmer.

I did buy LotRO just to be a farmer.  Then they changed it all up.

[Xuri]

It's strangely satisfying to smoke pipeweed you've grown and harvested yourself.

I thought this was a gaming discussion?!?!

LotrO -> Farming -> Pipeweed -> Smoke

[Signe]

I like to craft.  I almost bought LotRO just to be a farmer.

I did buy LotRO just to be a farmer.  Then they changed it all up.

Well, bugger.  I was hoping to buy it when I'm at retirement age and hoe and smoke my golden years away!

[Hutch]

It's strangely satisfying to smoke pipeweed you've grown and harvested yourself.

I thought this was a gaming discussion?!?!

LotrO -> Farming -> Pipeweed -> Smoke

-> ding -> grats -> lol

[Nebu]

My humor is lost on some people. 

[UnSub]

I mean, if players can spend their whole game lives crafting, there will be an awful lot of those industrial types, which might be considered kinda weird for a Conan game.

Conan was the son of a blacksmith.  It wouldn't be all that weird.

As shown in the first movie, if Conan's dad had spent less time grinding his blacksmith skill and more time killing foozles and leveling up, he'd have been better off.

[Dtrain]

Ok, I can add one more reason people like to craft in MMOs: to be a resource baron. So far I've got: resource baron, resourcefulness (smoking your own pipe weed,) and getting rich. And yet - none of it relates to the actual act of crafting itself. Throw shit into a window and click combine = not interesting. Do it 300 times to level = soul crushing.

Puzzle pirates is a great example, as far as puzzle pirates goes. Put in the context of a tradiitional MMO grind it would just get that much more tedious. IE: Instead of clicking combine 300 times to get a crafting level, you play the same minigame 300 times to get a level. I'd actually think it would work out really well for AoC though - as long as people can be satisfied by crafting no more than 10-20 items a day.

[sidereal]

Ok, I can add one more reason people like to craft in MMOs: to be a resource baron. So far I've got: resource baron, resourcefulness (smoking your own pipe weed,) and getting rich. And yet - none of it relates to the actual act of crafting itself. Throw shit into a window and click combine = not interesting. Do it 300 times to level = soul crushing.

I like to work with my hands.

Seriously, aim at a foozle and click attack = not interesting.  Do it 300 times to level = soul crushing.  If you think aggregating interesting experiences from a repetitive stream of tedious activities is useless or unpopular, then you don't believe WoW exists.

[Dtrain]

I would not class WoW's combat as repetitive or uninteresting. Leveling is quick and easy. There is very little downtime. Abilities and options available to a character, while relatively narow, are effective and represent strategic options. The game has well structured questlines to keep attention focused.

WoW is popular because of all of those things; it would be less so if the combat were no more than 'have x, y, and z' and click combine.

[sidereal]

I would not class WoW's combat as repetitive or uninteresting. Leveling is quick and easy. There is very little downtime. Abilities and options available to a character, while relatively narow, are effective and represent strategic options. The game has well structured questlines to keep attention focused.

WoW is popular because of all of those things; it would be less so if the combat were no more than 'have x, y, and z' and click combine.

I don't think any of these comparisons dispute my point.  Quests are a narrative context around foozle-bashing.  They don't change the nature of foozle-bashing.  Like I said, it's a repetitive stream of tedious activities that's aggregated into something interesting by a higher level context in which you're bashing foozles.  The same with leveling.  Leveling isn't something you do in combat, it's something that keeps (repetitive) combat interesting by providing context.  You could just as well provide a leveling or questing context around crafting, and in fact WoW does both.

Downtime is irrelevant, since it exists even less in crafting (I don't know of any forced resting between crafting attempts). 

As far as the strategic options of WoW combat, I took multiple characters to max and I didn't see it.  Every class and talent build had its own correct combat sequence, but once you figured it out, there was no point in deviating.  Granted, it was more complicated than pushbutton ingredient combining, but not so much that I'd say it's a qualitatively different experience.  Many elements of ATiTD crafting were more complicated than WoW combat.

The one area where I'd grant that combat is substantially more complex and interactive than crafting is raiding or -- to a lesser extent -- basic group play, and that's the complexity of coordination, not the mechanics.  You could create the same effect with complicated simultaneous group crafting recipes that depended on precise timing.

I'm not saying you have to like crafting.  I'm just saying there's no objective basis to prefer combat to crafting.  It's just taste.  You prefer sword-swinging animations to hammer-hitting-anvil animations.

[Dtrain]

You prefer sword-swinging animations to hammer-hitting-anvil animations.

If this and group dynamics are all the difference you can see between adventure leveling and tradeskill leveling, I'd say your trips to max level have shown you just about every secret the game has to offer. Congratulations - you're Neo and there is no spoon.

All the nuances of good adventure leveling systems are designed to suspend your realization that 'hey, I'm whacking the foozle.' And there will always be a best way to do something. Once you've realized the former and discovered the latter, there really is no difference between crafting and tradeskilling.

Unfortunately none of those nuances that we've discussed exist in the tradeskill systems of any MMO I've ever played. I can pick up a moderately ambitious MMO (WoW is still a good example,) and be "mystified" by the foozle whacking game more or less until I hit max level, but disheartened the first time I hit combine. (I say mystified - I can look sideways at any MMO from the start and see I'm whacking foozles, but while the mystery is still there I'm not reminded of it with every creature I kill.)

I still have not heard anyone say that they enjoy the actual mechanics of crafting. And you can't tell me that people never enjoy the actual mechanics of adventuring because otherwise, why are people playing these games at all? Once they get to your level of apathy expertise, the only things that keep them playing are their social connections, the time they have already invested into the game, the prospect of maxing out their gear, and the occasional expansion. And then eventually even that is not enough, but I don't have a problem with this.

[Trouble]

Crafting in ATITD is great. Just there are other problems with the game...like developer inattention.

[Dtrain]

Mmm, yeah, good point. I've always wanted to give that game a shot. What are the actual mechanics of crafting like in A Tale in the Desert?

I'd always heard that the level of inter-dependancy was great - which if your game is nearly entirely crafting, makes sense.

[DraconianOne]

I still have not heard anyone say that they enjoy the actual mechanics of crafting.

I thought I had done.  Pehaps I should say it again.

The crafting system in SWG was excellent and I enjoyed it immensely.  It could be as little or as much as you wanted to make of it - whether it was simply combine-the-components and sit back approach or take the time to source got quality materials and experiment to produce high quality goods.  Coupled with creating factory blueprints, the vendor system and features like the shipwright's reverse engineering process it was all in all the most enjoyable tradeskill system I've come across in an MMO.

Is that clear enough or would you like fewer words?

[Dtrain]

I just read that you liked resource gathering and the variety it produced, also being a bit of the resource baron. And even in that the burn out factor was high.

The act of leveling crafting in SWG was still just have a bunch of stuff, put it in the window, click combine, wait for results, repeat ad nauseum. Was that fun for you, or just something you put up with to get to the top of the ladder?

[DraconianOne]

I just read that you liked resource gathering and the variety it produced, also being a bit of the resource baron. And even in that the burn out factor was high.

The act of leveling crafting in SWG was still just have a bunch of stuff, put it in the window, click combine, wait for results, repeat ad nauseum. Was that fun for you, or just something you put up with to get to the top of the ladder?

The act of levelling combat in SWG was very much an ad nauseam routine as well.  Get a terminal mission, kill everything, rinse, repeat.  Was it fun?  Not less than grinding the crafting but not much more either.  One of the main differences between levelling crafting in SWG and something like WoW was that it was entirely possible to sell everything you made while levelling in SWG to other players - certainly in the case of shipwright.  That makes it so much more rewarding for a start.  And potentially social too.

If there had been other ways to get to the "top of the ladder" - perhaps like a type of quest system that the AoC guys are talking about - that would have been better.  I didn't say it was a flawless system.  But the actual mechanics of crafting, while essentially a case of combining components, had much more depth than most contemporary systems and that was fun.

As for burn-out - that was a rod I made for my own back and no different to the type of burn-out I gather hardcore raiders suffer: treating the game like a job.  I never stopped though (well, not until the NGE saga), I just cut back and stopped spending all my play time doing resource harvesting.  I had one character who started out as a shipwright the day JtL launched and he never changed.  He was a master DE too and could provide anything a pilot could ever want.

I'm getting all nostalgic now.

[tmp]

Puzzle pirates is a great example, as far as puzzle pirates goes. Put in the context of a tradiitional MMO grind it would just get that much more tedious. IE: Instead of clicking combine 300 times to get a crafting level, you play the same minigame 300 times to get a level. I'd actually think it would work out really well for AoC though - as long as people can be satisfied by crafting no more than 10-20 items a day.

I think the obvious mistake would then be to require player to play the minigame hundreds of time to level... there's just no need to try and force the usual MMO coat on it -- the quality of produced items is literally affected by how well the player performs in the minigame itself. So you can grant people access to the item blueprints and such much faster, without worry that every single one of them will be able to craft top quality gear overnight, or for that matter ever.

That said puzzle pirates games do have levelling of sort, but it's more like getting through levels in say, Tetris. If you manage to clear the level, you get new one that's harder, then harder and so on. Time spent on the game and average performance is also reflected by player title, probably as bragging rights and to allow others evaluate person's skill/experience at a glance (important when you're looking for crew member or shop worker) I suppose the thing to keep in mind is also, these levels play really fast (single game lasts a minute or less depending how good one is at it) and because the games are quite fun to play on their own it's not as much "omg i have to play it 300 times?" experience but rather "omg i spent how much time playing?" one.

Of course puzzles aren't "universal fun" also, but it's probably not that unreasonable to presume people find them more fun on average than they find just clicking the 'combine' button.

[Ratman_tf]

I just read that you liked resource gathering and the variety it produced, also being a bit of the resource baron. And even in that the burn out factor was high.

The act of leveling crafting in SWG was still just have a bunch of stuff, put it in the window, click combine, wait for results, repeat ad nauseum. Was that fun for you, or just something you put up with to get to the top of the ladder?

SWG crafting was great IMO because it mattered. You could take all of the crafting out of WoW and the game could go on just fine. Maybe some of the more insane raid bosses would be hella tougher without resist potions, but all in all, crafting is not necessary.

SWG crafting was intregal to the game. And that was damn cool. My big contention is that the PvE was too bland to support the crafters, but I've said that in other threads already. 

[Typhon]

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you need to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

[Valmorian]

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you need to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

That's funny, but there's a grain of truth in that.  It's the same problem that you see people complain about in reverse, that you need to perform non crafting actions (or rely on someone else to do them) in order to advance your crafting skill.

[Ratman_tf]

Or be dependant on others for your combat advancement. (Forced grouping)

[Hoax]

Everyone wants at least the option of being...

xXxLoneSniperWolf666xXx

[Mrbloodworth]

Or be dependant on others for your combat advancement. (Forced grouping)

Slight detour.

In most games, there really is no forced grouping. Its that the players themselves have decided to go for a goal, that is group required (IE: It was designed that way, and the reward was also). Then they bitch. Completely ignoring the other avenues or goals that are there for a single player.

95.8% of the time, players do it to themselves.

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you WANT to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

Fixed.

[tazelbain]

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you need to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

I thought EvE disproved this.  If you going to make everyone dependent on crafters than it requires a robust economy.

[Viin]

<troll>
I thought it was clear from the last 10 years of online gaming that people who like to play games don't like to be dependent on people who like to craft.  Something to do with having to suck craftard cock to get something you need to play the game not being fun.
</troll>

I thought EvE disproved this.  If you going to make everyone dependent on crafters than it requires a robust economy.

Yah, I was gonna say, I certainly don't see this happening in EVE. SWG? Yes, but I'm not sure why.. can't buy stuff far away maybe?