The cockblock of EvE

[ajax34i]

Same topic was brought up on the newbie boards recently.

[lamaros]

I quit EVE in the trial period for the same reason. Can't stand the skill system.

Pay to watch a counter go up by itself. Leet.

[IainC]

Same topic was brought up on the newbie boards recently.

And Bendrar is clearly Spiralyguy, it's the exact same post with the exact same points. He's arguing flawed logic based on bad analogies there too.

[trias_e]

Threads like this are a good way to pick out which people play MMORPGs only for a sense of virtual achievement and no more.  Eve is definitely a game for the S, K, and E crowds.  At least at the beginning.

[lamaros]

They're also an excellent way of picking out people who like to project values on others and make sweeping generalisations rather than discuss their own thoughts and feelings.

[qedetc]

They're also an excellent way of picking out people who like to project values on others and make sweeping generalisations rather than discuss their own thoughts and feelings.

you must be some kind of acid dropping hippie

[spiralyguy]

And Bendrar is clearly Spiralyguy, it's the exact same post with the exact same points.

Yes.

They're also an excellent way of picking out people who like to project values on others and make sweeping generalisations rather than discuss their own thoughts and feelings.

No. 

It's what boards are for.  I post an opinion, people disagree and post counter opinions, and I post counter opinions back.  What exactly does "proejcting values on others" mean anyway?  How do you state your opinion without projecting values on others?  I said what I thought, no more, no less.  Feel free to disagree.

[spiralyguy]

Threads like this are a good way to pick out which people play MMORPGs only for a sense of virtual achievement and no more.

I don't think that's why I play MMO's.  It's really got very little to do with achievement and more to do with being able to access the games features.

In other games, through effort, you succeed and unlock features.  Be it higher levels, new skills, new tracks, new cars, new guns.  Whatever.

In EvE you unlock new features by waiting and paying their subscription.  I find this unacceptable.  The strength of your character in eve is directly related to the amount of subscription money you have paid them which is even more bogus then strength being directly related to time played.

[trias_e]

They're also an excellent way of picking out people who like to project values on others and make sweeping generalisations rather than discuss their own thoughts and feelings.

Ok, here's my thoughts and feelings:  Most complaints about the skill system in Eve are from achievers who want DING GRATS in response to their actions.

The strength of your character in eve is directly related to the amount of subscription money you have paid them which is even more bogus then strength being directly related to time played.

I don't really see the difference between a Diku and Eve other than a separation of action and reward, and the flattening of character growth between people that play a little and people that play alot (which I think is pretty cool.)  Otherwise, yes, cockblocks are the essence of MMORPGs.  WoW, EQ, and Eve alike.

[spiralyguy]

Ok, here's my thoughts and feelings:  Most complaints about the skill system in Eve are from achievers who want DING GRATS in response to their actions.

As opposed to non-achievers who want DING GRATS in response to doing nothing but waiting and paying a subscription?  Hmm.

[Valmorian]

Ok, here's my thoughts and feelings:  Most complaints about the skill system in Eve are from achievers who want DING GRATS in response to their actions.

As opposed to non-achievers who want DING GRATS in response to doing nothing but waiting and paying a subscription?  Hmm.

The only difference between WoW and Eve as far as achievements go is that in WoW you have the option of spending gobs of your own time to gain achievements at a more rapid pace.  It's not like very casual players in WoW don't also pay a subscription and gain achievements at a slow rate.

Indeed, it seems as though Eve is the ultimate casual gamer game for this reason.

[spiralyguy]

Indeed, it seems as though Eve is the ultimate casual gamer game for this reason.

For sure.  The skill system does seem to be oriented to the guys who can only play once or twice a week instead of every night.

Me on the other hand.... I get a new game and want to play mostly every night until it's done or I'm bored.  Bored happened.

Up a few posts someone said something like "I bet the ship you want won't be that uber".  Well... i'm just trying to get a mining barge because I think thats the only way to mine ice.  Seemed to be the next logical step for a prospector.  Someone also said "level 5 skills aren't used for much".  Well... I'm waiting on Industry level 5 in order to start training astrogeology in order to fly the mining barge.  Like I said..... I can afford the barge now... I just don't have the patience to wait until this crap is trained lol.

[Ratman_tf]

As opposed to non-achievers who want DING GRATS in response to doing nothing but waiting and paying a subscription?  Hmm.

The catasses are waiting and paying a subscription.

Gamers like me are setting our skills to train, and then going on to play the game.

It's too bad that you can't pilot that sooper spaceship as soon as you want. Kinda like me not being able to bypass all the lowbie bullshit and get into a damn raid in WoW within a reasonable (non-poopsock) amount of time.

Hmmm...

[Valmorian]

Up a few posts someone said something like "I bet the ship you want won't be that uber".  Well... i'm just trying to get a mining barge because I think thats the only way to mine ice.  Seemed to be the next logical step for a prospector.  Someone also said "level 5 skills aren't used for much".  Well... I'm waiting on Industry level 5 in order to start training astrogeology in order to fly the mining barge.  Like I said..... I can afford the barge now... I just don't have the patience to wait until this crap is trained lol.

If you prefer, you can pretend that you are actually getting 1/10th the amount of ISK you are getting now, so that it would take you the same length of time to get the money as it does to get the skill points.  That would be the regular Diku method of gating content.  Don't fool yourself into thinking that Eve is more restrictive, they're just gating it differently. 

[Valmorian]

In other games, through effort, you succeed and unlock features.  Be it higher levels, new skills, new tracks, new cars, new guns.  Whatever.

With regards to MMO's, that's nonsense.  If you don't think that MMO manufacturers aren't looking carefully at the statistical gain of XP's over time for each character class and setting the values based upon that, you're naive.  The ILLUSION is that it's through effort that you are succeeding, but the reality is that it is time that is being measured, not effort.  The only difference is that in Eve's case it's actual time subscribed, while in other MMO's it's time spent at the keyboard, logged in, killing stuff.

[tazelbain]

Gaining ISK is super grindy.
Gaining SP is super non-grindy.
You need both.  It's a Yin Yang sorta thing.

The main problem is the dull the low level game.  It still needs more spice so you aren't left looking at your skill tab wishing it was faster.

[Murgos]

I don't get it.  My experience is not the same at all.

As of today I am 1 week in EVE.  I have accomplished:

Earned ~8 million ISK (half off of one lucky lewt).
Own a Gallente destroyer and a Gallente crusier (and have had several frigates).
Moved from flaying 1 drone in combat to using 5 drones at a time of either light or medium (depending on target)
Travelled all over the place.
Am now also capable of flying teir 3 Minmater frigates
Participated in PVP (and got thrashed)
Can now fit standard tackling rigs like warp scramblers and webber
Have moved from light guns to medium guns
Have added probably 20 skills at lvl 1 or higher
killed lots of 'rats, moved up in tiers of 'rats I fight and have even killed a 'rat cruiser.

So, no DING Gratz, but to say my character hasn't advanced is idiotic.  Is the time it takes to learn skills set?  Sure, but what skills I acquired and what order I acquired them in was my decision and I can pretty safely state that it would be amazing to see another character that after 7 days that was identical.

Say that in WoW you cannot, hmm?  </yoda>

[sidereal]

Yeah, what Murgos said.

Eve doesn't add a cockblock, it removes a fucking array of cockblocks by dissociating the improvement track from the "What I spend all day doing" track.  What I spend all day doing might be mining Veldspar, or kamikazeing much better ships in 0-space, or jerking it in chat.  Meanwhile, the improvement track improves relentlessly.

[Krakrok]

I'd play WoW if I started with a level 70 character out of the box.

[Falconeer]

What you don't get Spiralguy when you talk about subscription money/time and that kind of stuff is that such logic is ABSOLUTELY true in WoW too. It's just that while in EVE the system assumes that everyone is grinding at max speed, and so the process can be automatized (to alleviate the burden and let players just focus on PLAYING), in WoW the only thing players can do is SLOW DOWN the max advancement and money/time function Blizzard setup for you.

And you can actually slow it down so much to the point that it stops (that happens every time you don't login or you wait for a party to form). But that won't stop them from taking your money.

While you perceive that in WoW you can speed up the XP gain by playing, actually you can only slow it down. And the better grinder you are, the less you slow it down. That's just it.

[Reg]

I can understand Spiralguy's complaint though. It sounds like he's entirely focused on getting into that fancy mining ship and the fact that he's not flying it and making the most money he can by mining is actually spoiling his fun. EVE is a game that needs you to be interested in more than just one thing so that you can avoid situations like that.

The same applies to all MMOs I think. The people in WoW who are happiest are the ones that like questing and raiding and crafting and PvP rather than just one thing.

[qedetc]

It's just that while in EVE the system assumes that everyone is grinding at max speed, and so the process can be automatized (to alleviate the burden and let players just focus on PLAYING), in WoW the only thing players can do is SLOW DOWN the max advancement and money/time function Blizzard setup for you.

...

While you perceive that in WoW you can speed up the XP gain by playing, actually you can only slow it down. And the better grinder you are, the less you slow it down. That's just it.

This is probably the best description of Eve's skill system, and reduces complaints against it to what they actually are: complaints about either the amount of time CCP wants you to wait for skills, or the reduced ability to feel direct character advancement based on time actively invested, which is an emotional/perceptive preference.  Neither of which can be argued any more so than 'chocolate is better than vanilla' and '1 bar of chocolate per week for the next two weeks is better than 2 bars of chocolate now'.

Hurray!

[Calantus]

You guys calling it "ding gratz" are forgetting that you max out in WoW. 2 weeks of leveling if you go at it reasonably hard and you will not get another ding gratz until the next expansion (1-2 years). If you've been playing since release on one character you would have hit 60 in roughly a month, then gone 2 years without another ding gratz, then gotten 10 on a few days, and then gone another year without ding gratz. In EvE is never ends. I don't like WoW's system better because it gives me the ding gratz, I like it because it gets you out of ding gratz mode and into the game you actually wanted to play and keeps you there. It ends, and ends very fast for an MMOG if you know what you're doing and play a lot.

[Koyasha]

This, I'd have to say, was primary among several things that put me off of EVE.  I personally like to directly influence the growth of my character.  Now while I understand that yes, in EVE I still have to make ISK and whatever other activities, my character getting more skill points and therefore being able to gain greater power to do more damage (by both leveling and gaining access to superior weaponry) and 'equipping' better equipment in general (flying better ships) is beyond my control.  I can select what to do and slightly influence how fast I do it depending on what skills I learn first.

I picked up Lineage II recently, and in less than 30 days I've gained 53, almost 54 levels (which means I'm almost at the HARD part, wee!).  Why?  Because I set my mind to it and I grind like crazy when I have to.  I haven't even done as well as I 'could' have done, as I spend a good bit of in-game time puttering around doing nothing-in-particular.  But the thing that matters to me is that I gained those levels.  Other people I know didn't.  Some people that were in their 20's are now in their 30's, some that were in their 40's are now near my level.  I'm not saying I wouldn't be able to 'catch up' in EVE (though technically, CAN you catch up?  Sounds like no.) and soon be capable of playing and contributing with long-time players, but I really wouldn't feel like I'd done anything to earn that.

I suppose it is in great part the mentality of the person.  I don't like 'luck' in games, either - I like my advancement, as well as my victory or defeat to be mostly in my hands, and anytime the game takes it out of my hands, whether for 'good' as in, you don't have to expend any actual effort to get this, or bad as in, you do your best and it's still pretty much a crapshoot whether you get what you want or not...I don't like it.  To me, the only difference between EVE's automatic advancement and, say, setting up a completely AFK bot group in Lineage II is that in one game, that's how the game is designed, and in the other it's cheating.

Calantus is also right in that in many games, the leveling ends at some point, allowing me to get on with whatever I want to play the game for, be it raiding in EverQuest or WoW or PvP in Lineage II or WoW or what have you.  Now some people are saying you're free to just play, instead of trying to advance.  There's two reasons that doesn't quite work out for me.  First off, if I have advancement that remains to be done, I want to DO it, not putter around with other things.  The other things are what I can relax and do after I have achieved my primary goals.  And usually, if I ever do achieve those primary goals, and the game doesn't raise the bar pretty soon afterward, I'm getting bored and leaving.  And second, working on improvement is just playing.  That's basically the point.  Almost everything I do in-game is toward the goal of making my character more powerful in one way or another.  Sometimes (rather rarely) that is to improve my own skills at playing the character.  Usually it's to gain better stats/equipment on the character.  And as a final nail in the coffin, unlike some people, I don't particularly enjoy the financial game, which is the main part of EVE that the player can affect.  I don't like trying to learn a market, selling, buying, and trading in order to make money.  The tendency of money to become useless in most of these games works just fine with me because I don't like to have to be concerned with making more of it.

In the end, the main problem with EVE for me is it takes out of my hands the part I actually care about in these games, and the only part it gives me to affect is the part I dislike.

[Falconeer]

In the end, the main problem with EVE for me is it takes out of my hands the part I actually care about in these games, and the only part it gives me to affect is the part I dislike.

I take it you don't like choices then.

Koyasha, to me you just used lots of word to state that yes you really like *DING GRATZ* and you play this kind of games for that.

Good for you, but keep in mind that advancement in EVE follow other vectors, not just UP.

This is why there is no cap.
This is why noobs can play efficiently along 4 year veterans after a few days. Something very rare in MMO-land, and sounds sweet to me.
And while you got stripped away of your satisfying LevelUP sound, in return you get a game with the most customizable character system ever and where you are asked for choices in your advancement path since day one... and forever.
While in regular MMORPG save for a few skills (like talents) you are only free to choose where to go XPing, in EVE, on top of that, you can really decide how to grow your character along so many many differet ways. It's really about choices.

I can see why you like caps and glowing milestones, and no need to say that if that is your cup of tea then great.
But in EVE you don't have and don't need caps because the game focuses on something else than just a predictable and locked set of achievements.

[rk47]

I think for me the EVE pool is too deep for me to swim. And doesn't give me as much satisfaction as say...uh...character PVP. I admit the massive fleet battle, hit and run tactics sounds inspiring...I sincerely doubt I can keep myself interested past a month looking at skill sheet and numbers on my 'avatar': the ship.

I'd like to be a crew in a ship though...some guy who observes and carry out orders etc. Heheh. It may sound boring but at least I don't have to worry so much about my games that they invade my RL thought patterns Yeah I got this issue of thinking too hard about games I can't focus much on my work. I had to quit some MMO I played due to that.

[Kail]

In EvE is never ends. I don't like WoW's system better because it gives me the ding gratz, I like it because it gets you out of ding gratz mode and into the game you actually wanted to play and keeps you there. It ends, and ends very fast for an MMOG if you know what you're doing and play a lot.

I kind of disagree with this, personally. 

First off, WoW's progression doesn't "end" once you hit 60, that's just where it jumps the track, to where it's out of the reach of about 90% of the playerbase.  I don't personally see much difference between complaints of "I'll never have the top end raid gear in WoW" versus "I'll never be able to fly top end superships in EVE".  If you're setting an arbitrary end point for yourself in WoW, you could do so in EVE, as well, if you wanted.  Getting to level four missions, for example, or being able to fly battleships (which are the largest ships you can pilot in Empire, I believe?) should be do-able in a few months.

Second, EVE doesn't pull the same "bait and switch" that WoW does at 70.  If you want to do something in EVE, you can probably do it (in some form or another) in a week or so.  Not that you can fly your Star Destroyer around with a week's worth of skill points, but you can fight in a frigate... and if you don't like fighting in a frigate, you probably won't like fighting in a Star Destroyer, either.  While I can understand that it feels a bit futile to be making one-tenth the amount of isk we'd be making after a week's worth of training, I strongly suspect that in a week, when setting out in our new super mining truck, we'll be looking at the Tech II super mining truck and saying "in just a month, I can fly one of those, and THEN things will be awesome."  Maybe it's just because I found mining to be boring as hell, but I really, really can't see it suddenly becoming fun just because I'm making more imaginary money by doing it.  In WoW, there's a REASON to grind to 70, if you're interested in Raiding or Arenas, because you literally can't do them before then, but this kind of situation doesn't exist in EVE, as far as I know.

Which isn't to say that EVE is the OMGAWESOME game and everyone who doesn't like it must be stupid.  If someone doesn't enjoy playing the game, then I'm not saying they should keep playing it.  But it's not like there's some promised land filled with new gameplay types and experiences never before seen, which you can't get in to if you don't have "Sensor Linking IV" or something.

[Ratman_tf]

You guys calling it "ding gratz" are forgetting that you max out in WoW. 2 weeks of leveling if you go at it reasonably hard and you will not get another ding gratz until the next expansion (1-2 years). If you've been playing since release on one character you would have hit 60 in roughly a month, then gone 2 years without another ding gratz, then gotten 10 on a few days, and then gone another year without ding gratz. In EvE is never ends. I don't like WoW's system better because it gives me the ding gratz, I like it because it gets you out of ding gratz mode and into the game you actually wanted to play and keeps you there. It ends, and ends very fast for an MMOG if you know what you're doing and play a lot.

2 weeks to cap out a 70 in WoW? I never hit 70, took until just before BC to hit 60 and start raiding, and I consider myself to be spending possibly too much time at my computer games.

[Falconeer]

Back in 2004 when I quit playing WoW I had 9 days of /played (as in 24*9 = 216 hours) and I was level 38.

Guess I was playing too much and grinding too less. I was my cockblock, OMG!

EDIT: But that's the point. In other MMORPG Everyone is his/her cockblock, preventing him/herself to level up at max speed. In EVE, that doesn't happen. You grow up, no matter what. Such is life (sandbox yay!). You STILL have to earn money, items, a position, credit, respect. Just because you don't have too earn your aging process it doesn't mean there is nothing to do/enjoy or you are not living life properly.

[Calantus]

You guys calling it "ding gratz" are forgetting that you max out in WoW. 2 weeks of leveling if you go at it reasonably hard and you will not get another ding gratz until the next expansion (1-2 years). If you've been playing since release on one character you would have hit 60 in roughly a month, then gone 2 years without another ding gratz, then gotten 10 on a few days, and then gone another year without ding gratz. In EvE is never ends. I don't like WoW's system better because it gives me the ding gratz, I like it because it gets you out of ding gratz mode and into the game you actually wanted to play and keeps you there. It ends, and ends very fast for an MMOG if you know what you're doing and play a lot.

2 weeks to cap out a 70 in WoW? I never hit 70, took until just before BC to hit 60 and start raiding, and I consider myself to be spending possibly too much time at my computer games.

Yes, it doesn't take very long if you know wht you're doing and play a lot. I realise it takes a massive amount of time per day to pull that off, but that's the way I do it, and since I'm arguing from my point of view it's valid. 70 takes me ~7 days /played depending how much I mess about. For 2 weeks that's roughly 12 hours a day, but provided work isn't too busy I will easily pull that off (my permanent duties take 10 hours a week to complete, the rest of my time spent depends on what projects I'm on at the time).

I realise the skill system is a casual utopia as far as advancement systems are concerned, but I'm not casual and it rubs me the wrong way when I want to play it hardcore but can't really do so in the way I wanted. I don't like the economy game. Never have, never will. In WoW my priest has enchanting for the +20 healing to each of his rings and I never, ever sell enchants now that it's maxed. His other profession slot is empty because none of the other professions give enough unique benefit to be worth it, and I don't care about the trade skill itself. I don't buy/sell on the AH. When I sell something on the AH I price it to sell and wash my hands of it. I hate finding blues because now I have to sell them. Etc. So unless I can be PVPing in my own right (and not just being a tackler or part of a freighter swarm) I'm not interested in what the game was offering. Grinding money wasn't important because I had already bought everything I could use and making money itself is boring to me, and I couldn't be a force in PVP for a couple more months either. There was nothing to do that I would enjoy for too long. Yes there were options, no they weren't options for me.

Personally I'd prefer very shallow advancement. Give me 90-100% of the power a maxed character will have, then let me choose a loadout of skills/whatever at creation then if I want lateral movement have me earn those new skills/whatever through whatever mechanic so I can build up a portfolio of skills and tweak my build from that. This way you can instantly be doing what you want to be doing at or very near full capacity and advancement becomes more about fillout out your character at your leisure so you can. I don't care about the ding gratz, I got tired of leveling for its own sake a long time ago, I just want to play the endgame in the quickest calendar time possible, and currently that puts WoW above EVE.

Back in 2004 when I quit playing WoW I had 9 days of /played (as in 24*9 = 216 hours) and I was level 38.

Guess I was playing too much and grinding too less. I was my cockblock, OMG!

EDIT: But that's the point. In other MMORPG Everyone is his/her cockblock, preventing him/herself to level up at max speed. In EVE, that doesn't happen. You grow up, no matter what. Such is life (sandbox yay!). You STILL have to earn money, items, a position, credit, respect. Just because you don't have too earn your aging process it doesn't mean there is nothing to do/enjoy or you are not living life properly.

You don't grind to progress in WoW, not if you want to do it quickly, you power quest. I'm sure that sounds anathema to you but I enjoy power gaming of that sort.

[IainC]

Personally I find the skill complete messages to more than adequately substitute for the 'Ding! Gratz!' of other MMOs. I don't however measure my progress purely in skill points, as said there are multiple advancement vectors - some more quantifiable than others - and very few are tied directly into your skill progress.

You guys calling it "ding gratz" are forgetting that you max out in WoW. 2 weeks of leveling if you go at it reasonably hard and you will not get another ding gratz until the next expansion (1-2 years). If you've been playing since release on one character you would have hit 60 in roughly a month, then gone 2 years without another ding gratz, then gotten 10 on a few days, and then gone another year without ding gratz. In EvE is never ends. I don't like WoW's system better because it gives me the ding gratz, I like it because it gets you out of ding gratz mode and into the game you actually wanted to play and keeps you there. It ends, and ends very fast for an MMOG if you know what you're doing and play a lot.

It's not the same thing. WoW has a content price - you cannot experience certain modes of gameplay without first 'paying' for it by engaging in a different and specific type of gameplay. You can't start a new account and see what the fuss about battlegrounds is or sightsee in raids. When you say the 'progression ends' what you mean is that the boring stuff you don't like is over and you are able to enjoy the cool stuff that you do like. As pointed out previously by multiple posters, EvE lets you try pretty much any aspect of the game right out of the tutorial, there is no 'apprenticeship' period as such.

Indeed, it seems as though Eve is the ultimate casual gamer game for this reason.

For sure.  The skill system does seem to be oriented to the guys who can only play once or twice a week instead of every night.

Me on the other hand.... I get a new game and want to play mostly every night until it's done or I'm bored.  Bored happened.

Up a few posts someone said something like "I bet the ship you want won't be that uber".  Well... i'm just trying to get a mining barge because I think thats the only way to mine ice.  Seemed to be the next logical step for a prospector.  Someone also said "level 5 skills aren't used for much".  Well... I'm waiting on Industry level 5 in order to start training astrogeology in order to fly the mining barge.  Like I said..... I can afford the barge now... I just don't have the patience to wait until this crap is trained lol.

Then try doing something else with your time in game if you feel it's a waste to be mining with a lesser ship. Learn how to PvP, try playing with the market, try out missions and build some loyalty points with a faction while learning how to deal with the belt pirates that will inevitably come to harass your cool ship when you do start your mining career. Now is the time that you want to be making all the expensive mistakes that lose you ships, not when you're sat in a valuable mining hulk trying to figure out which of the icons on your overview is shooting at you.

Spending all your time on a single activity in most games is a fast ticket to boredom or burnout. EvE is no different.

Personally I'd prefer very shallow advancement. Give me 90-100% of the power a maxed character will have, then let me choose a loadout of skills/whatever at creation then if I want lateral movement have me earn those new skills/whatever through whatever mechanic so I can build up a portfolio of skills and tweak my build from that. This way you can instantly be doing what you want to be doing at or very near full capacity and advancement becomes more about fillout out your character at your leisure so you can. I don't care about the ding gratz, I got tired of leveling for its own sake a long time ago, I just want to play the endgame in the quickest calendar time possible, and currently that puts WoW above EVE.

You can get 80% of the power of a veteran character in any one area very quickly (within a couple of weeks) in EvE. Most of a veteran players training time will be on diversity skills and on the last level of training which, as training times increase exponentially, means that the training time/benefit ratio goes way down past level 3 of any given skill.

EvE has no end game. There is no 'you've hit the level where you can go and play with the big kids' moment, the game play is not divided into 'stuff you need to do in order to have fun' and 'fun'. You do not need to be this tall to ride as in other games.

[tkinnun0]

You don't grind to progress in WoW, not if you want to do it quickly, you power quest.

AKA grinding quests.

[Falconeer]

You don't grind to progress in WoW, not if you want to do it quickly, you power quest. I'm sure that sounds anathema to you but I enjoy power gaming of that sort.

Doesn't change a thing.
And besides, quests in WoW are just themed grind.



EDIT: oh, tkinunn0 was there.

[Calantus]

Yeah but I power quest in singleplayer RPGs because I just enjoy doing it so it's not really grindy to me (the first time, alts feel grindy though).

[ajax34i]

You know, the thing that kinda bothers me with these types of discussion is, what exactly is the point?  Everyone is arguing and whining ("EVE is a cockblock!!!" is a whine, although there are arguments in the thread too) about 3-5 year old games that have not changed for those 3 and 5 years, and that have no chance in hell of changing.  I mean, they're not going to change the core of the gameplay 3 years after the game was relased, right?  So I can agree or disagree and discuss it and what's the point?  Are we just socializing here?

Hi, I'm Bob and I disagree, nice to meet you, welcome to the forums, watch out don't be labelled a "catass" by your peers here.