Anything New on the horizon?

[Archimedian]

Serious question, any MMOs (of grand scale) coming out that are not following the current diku model (and by this I mean EQ/ WoW reskinned on the basic level)?

Tabula Rasa had a shot but the game play for me is just sad (as is the content) and any game where I want to fidget with the gama settings drives me batty.  It looks like AoC is the traditional level grind and I haven't really looked at Warhammer because I like my PvP in FPS mode.

So any one know of any games (beta / alpha) that are heading down a different path or even the same path but with gobs and gobs of content?

[Merusk]

No.  Enjoy.

Actually, Scott "Lum" Jennings had a bit about this on his blog.  He called it, "The desert of Azeroth."  Seems pretty apt.

[Rendakor]

In during lurk moar. 
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=10510.0
Disclaimer: Never played it, but it IS different. HARRRR!

[taolurker]

In during lurk moar. 
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=10510.0
Disclaimer: Never played it, but it IS different. HARRRR!

That probably should be YARRR.. It is after all a pirate game.

I've been in this beta, and can definitely say this is a refreshing new take on MMOs, it's definitely not diku, and has both PvP as well as strategic skill based gameplay. It's lacking some polish, and may have some rough spots still, but I happen to like the new and interesting things it's bringing to the genre.

I have a pre-order, which will allow for a head start (Jan 7) prior to launch on Jan 22nd, and suggest finding a pre-order to try it out (because you still can opt-out of buying if you don't happen to like it).

[Archimedian]

In during lurk moar. 
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=10510.0
Disclaimer: Never played it, but it IS different. HARRRR!

I beta-ed it, the ship to ship mechanics were relatively meh.  If they had just taken Sid Meyers Pirates and made it an MMO I think I would dig it.  Just flesh out the towns is all that game needed.  They reinvented the wheel to come up with the same concept just not as good.  Shame really I was hoping it would have a nice hook after about three hours I just found it needs either another 100 competent developers working 100 hour weeks for the next month to have it ready or another year with the current team.

I think I might actually have to go out and buy a console or something to get past these dark times.

[Signe]

I beta tested it off and on for some time and it is a bit different than the others.  Unfortunately, I didn't like enough to try and get good at it.  It just sort of bores me.  Console sounds like a good idea.   

[Rendakor]

That probably should be YARRR.. It is after all a pirate game.

After reading bloodninja, the pirate sound will always be HARRR.

[waylander]

Pretty much the next 2 years are going to be nothing but WoW clones, and extreme niche products that will die out fast if they don't have very good launches.

I've heard stuff here and there about browser based games, but I've never actually played one.

[schild]

Pretty much the next 2 years are going to be nothing but WoW clones.

That's the exact sentence people have been saying for the last 3 years.

[UnSub]

Pretty much the next 2 years are going to be nothing but WoW clones.

That's the exact sentence people have been saying for the last 3 years.

I'm keeping my eyes on Fallen Earth and The Secret World. Both don't have release dates set, which means the devs can leave them so vaguely defined so as to sound awesome regardless of the reality. That said, neither are coming across as WoW clones.

[schild]

I'm gonna go ahead and call Fallen Earth total vaporware.

As for the Secret World, ehhhhhhhhhhh, let's hope it's not a World of Vampires.

[Velorath]

Pretty much the next 2 years are going to be nothing but WoW clones.

That's the exact sentence people have been saying for the last 3 years.

That's because it's been the same games on the horizon.

[schild]

That's because it's been the same games on the horizon.

Naeg. There have been tons and tons of announcements. And most of them read: WoW Clone. Or at the very least, "Diku works lol let's do this, engage easy mode."

[Venkman]

I think the only two potentially-big (emphasis on "potentially") games under development that aren't purely fantasy RPG/stats-based DIKU are The Company and Huxley. They'll probably both feature heavy use of XP and level analogs, but their user controls and worlds are different. Not sure where SOE is with the former, but apparently Webzen is pretty far along on Huxley.

There's a crapload of browser-based games coming, but they're mostly following the just-call-it-advergaming model for kid and tween-targeted IP. There's a few that currently exist for the older audience, but I didn't really find any that were a significant departure from kill-to-get-better-at-killing model.

[Archimedian]

I think the only two potentially-big (emphasis on "potentially") games under development that aren't purely fantasy RPG/stats-based DIKU are The Company and Huxley. They'll probably both feature heavy use of XP and level analogs, but their user controls and worlds are different. Not sure where SOE is with the former, but apparently Webzen is pretty far along on Huxley.

There's a crapload of browser-based games coming, but they're mostly following the just-call-it-advergaming model for kid and tween-targeted IP. There's a few that currently exist for the older audience, but I didn't really find any that were a significant departure from kill-to-get-better-at-killing model.

You know what's amazing, my kids play webkins.  I'll call it the sims but for 4-8 year olds.  According to their site they have 1.8 million users.  With the buy the stuffed animal get a year free sub revenue model.  Browser based and they seem to enjoy it.

Call it a generational gap.  My nephews love warcraft (and I did too for about a year) and that is their point of origin, my kids are starting off with these browser based games and Wii.  I started off with the original UO on the apple 2e and moved onto muds and eventually graphical MMOs.  My guess about the future of these web based MMO concepts is that while I like a nice modable client and browsers seem like the antithesis of this that market is going to be much bigger than any one thinks.  Specially if you use the "I don't require my parents to give me their CC" and can be basically bought with a modified game card.  Personally I don't get it, but my kids do :)

I'm probably looking more for a sand box game with a hook.  Something akin to Tale in the Desert but without the obvious time sink component.  I don't mind time sinks I just want them cleverly disguised in entertainment that doesn't attempt to tickle my OCD gene (I'm looking at you WoW) and isn't content limited where the metagame requires huge commitments in order to play the game (again I'm looking at WoW, EQ2, hell any game with "elder game" type content.  I actually would play LotRO but for some unknown reason a game with the most hook, gets stale after about a month of playing.  I'm not sure what is missing in LotRO but from a small sample size of about 12 people we all hit the same "meh another diku" wall.

I hope Raph can get his new venture of the ground, perhaps a "low cost" modding concept with true available MMO tools that distribute the work load around and make it theoretically possible for joe schmoe to at least put a concept game design out there without needing venture funding might introduce new thinking. Who knows though, I think the task to deploy an easy to use world builder for the masses is similar to thinking that some guy who learned vbscript for excel back in the day and made a distributable spreadsheet thinks that's a good multi user solution.

I've peeked at The Secret World and from the sounds of it, I'm going with AO nanamages morphed into some new age vampire type world.  Who knows I might like that, it would at least be a change.

[Venkman]

I generally view what I find fun and business happenings seperately. Mostly this is because I don't think something needs to b hugely successful to be fun for someone (tho there's nothing wrong with that either).

The web base MMOs for kids and Tweens are interesting to me for a few reasons, but mostly that they're cheap and not really based on enthusiast core fantasy sorta DIKU grinds. There's web MMOs like that too of course, they just aren't he defacto standard by which success is measured.

At the same time, for personal fun, none of them grab me. That's fine of course since there's still AAA caliber work being done and there still needing to be the eventual transference to consoles for gamers like me. But i can appreciate that the next gen of gamers is coming up differently. For some big money IP holders, that's a far more compelling opportunity than the WoW player (cheaper games, wider array of acceptable business models, many IPs converting to many worlds rather than all risk taken on one, lower barriers to entry for consumer, different or nonexistent experiential expectations, etc)

All just my opinion of course.

[Aez]

Age of Conan is otw.  Still diku, but offers more (or less?) than reskinned EQ.

Maybe Warhammer willl become a real RvR game.

[UnSub]

I'm gonna go ahead and call Fallen Earth total vaporware.

As for the Secret World, ehhhhhhhhhhh, let's hope it's not a World of Vampires.

I have repeatedly said on the FE forums I think the game is likely vapour. It's been in development so long that the current stated dev task is redoing a lot of the in-game artwork. This doesn't mean that I don't think the idea is interesting (although the talk of real-time crafting is a bit worrying, given that you can build cars and the like).

As for Secret World: World of Cthulu vs Ninjas. You know you want it. 

Darniaq - instead of The Company, did you mean The Agency?

[Venkman]

Yea, thanks UnSub. Channeled Heroes there for a second

And what is the FE forums?

[Rendakor]

Yea, thanks UnSub. Channeled Heroes there for a second

And what is the FE forums?

http://forums.fallenearth.com

[Venkman]

Geez, you'd think I'd have been able to figure that one out...

[Mrbloodworth]

Fallen Earth also has been making middleware.

[Nebu]

The only thing I see on the horizon in the next two years is disappointment. 

I wish I didn't have a sick love for MMO's. I need therapy. 

[UnSub]

Fallen Earth also has been making middleware.

Importantly, middleware that will SAVE YOU TIME in developing your MMO!

Fallen Earth has been in development for 6 YEARS and still isn't at the point where it can announce a beta!

You do the math!

(For the sake of accuracy, Icarus Studios LLC owns and develops the middleware; Fallen Earth is a separate company that uses that middleware to develop the game. They split apart - on paper at least - mid-last year. However, FE's development has certainly been used to hone the middleware tools that Icarus is offering to other developers... I'm not aware of any still existing companies that Icarus has done a deal with involving the middleware, however.)

[Venkman]

Fallen Earth as a tech demo for their system sounds more like it, like Nevrax/Ryzom or, heck, Perpetual/G&H.

I used to think all-in-one MMO middleware would be the future, but so far I don't know of any that have been used in bigtime games, nor really any that were really very successful. Trippy would know though. He back from the holidays yet?

[Lantyssa]

Which reminds me of Hero's Journey.  Weren't several projects using Simultronics world tools?

[Mrbloodworth]

I think the only two potentially-big (emphasis on "potentially") games under development that aren't purely fantasy RPG/stats-based DIKU are The Company and Huxley.

I think you mean the Agency 

Unless i missed something.If so, do tell.

Fallen Earth also has been making middleware.

Importantly, middleware that will SAVE YOU TIME in developing your MMO!

Fallen Earth has been in development for 6 YEARS and still isn't at the point where it can announce a beta!

You do the math!

(For the sake of accuracy, Icarus Studios LLC owns and develops the middleware; Fallen Earth is a separate company that uses that middleware to develop the game. They split apart - on paper at least - mid-last year. However, FE's development has certainly been used to hone the middleware tools that Icarus is offering to other developers... I'm not aware of any still existing companies that Icarus has done a deal with involving the middleware, however.)

I was just putting it out there, every Middle-ware and MMO joint development i have seen has taken for ever and a day. The platform does have some interesting features, and (from some MMO-army vids) looks like some handy tools.

But they have been silent about the game for a bit now, wonder whats up.

To answer Darniaq question (well, no question really asked), i think the closest thing to a successful middle ware for moos has been the Hero engine. I cant think of anything that has come out of it, but its used by allot of places.

[Lantyssa]

In your link would be one of the companies I was talking about.  Bio-ware Austin to answer my own question.

[Hutch]

No.  Enjoy.

Actually, Scott "Lum" Jennings had a bit about this on his blog.  He called it, "The desert of Azeroth."  Seems pretty apt.

On a related note, here is an editorial I just spotted on Warcry.
The Year The Subscription Model Died

Money Quote:

The one-two punch of WoW and Guild Wars in 2004 has delivered a significant blow to the prospects of any company that has the audacity to charge their subscribers a monthly fee. Guild Wars showed that a high quality experience can be free and WoW redefined what people expect for that $14.95 a month.

[JoeTF]

I don't agree with that article. 200k of 15$ subs is helluya lot of money, I bet that single COH generates more income that half korean/chinese free-to-play crap.

Asian dudes seem to follow make new game instead make expansion* strategy - there is a lot of titles, but it's all pretty much small scale compared to what Everquest or LotR has.



*was there a free to play asian mmo that had EVE-like or WOW-like expansion?

[Archimedian]

I don't agree with that article. 200k of 15$ subs is helluya lot of money, I bet that single COH generates more income that half korean/chinese free-to-play crap.

Asian dudes seem to follow make new game instead make expansion* strategy - there is a lot of titles, but it's all pretty much small scale compared to what Everquest or LotR has.



*was there a free to play asian mmo that had EVE-like or WOW-like expansion?

I think with the standard model in asia where they mostly play in cafes unlike the "western" play at home concept you want a low barrier entry.  It's probably why the free to play model works better in asia as well as the taboo of of RMT being non existant there.  I'm sure if RMT wasn't such a taboo in the states (and I think this trend is changing rapidly) you'd see many more games have a revenue model like this.

One thing that new games let you do that expansions normally don't is not have to worry about mud flation (blizzard excluded here).  That and I think (opinion here) it is much easier to attract new players to a new release than it is to attract players to an expansion.  Meaning that your title needs to have a substancial player base that will buy it to justify the cost.  Since most operate under the FTP model you want to reset the item curve to increase your revenue.

Unlike western markets where you could in theory recoup your development cost on box sales, in my opinion this is not the same for most asian markets.

All conjecture on my part and probably some one with market expertise in MMOs could shoot this down or confirm this pretty rapidly.  Until then I like my opinions :)

I'd actually be curious how much "western" MMOs (ie EQ, SWG-bad example, LotrO, AC etal) increased their sub base with an expansion.  My guess is that the sub base doesn't grow much beyond the core player for that given MMO.

[JoeTF]

My guess:
they use expansions to keep their games afloat and let them grow at growth rate of entire market.

RTM games aren't bad for studios, they're just a really, really bad news for player. They cannot really have any kind of support and aren't getting developed. There is no polish and there will never be one, as they spent most of their resources on developing new content for new game instead of polishing the systems.

[Oban]

No.  Enjoy.

Actually, Scott "Lum" Jennings had a bit about this on his blog.  He called it, "The desert of Azeroth."  Seems pretty apt.

Took me awhile to find this article, it is a very interesting read:

http://brokentoys.org/2008/01/03/everyones-a-prophet-this-week/

[UnSub]

I think it's a bit wrong to link the payment model to the success (or failure) of any MMO. Especially in saying that it's the subscription model that is the problem.

WoW was a success for a large number of unique factors. More than half of its player base is non-North American, which I think runs counter to how a lot of MMO devs (based in NA) think. The issue is that having played WoW, what MMO is going to provide a better experience? Any MMO that duplicates WoW is going to provide a copy of that experience and if you'd played it once and quit, why would you play a copy? Conversely, if a game is too different to WoW, it may not attract the ex-WoW player. If anything, WoW has shown that the subscription model can work very well; it's up to MMO devs to build a game that can be profitable under such a model that also provides the same polished content that WoW has.

[Venkman]

Subscription models are worth talking about for any new MMO alone because they're the highest barrier to entry, being generally lumped onto a game you just paid full AAA price for anyway. Microtrans games have the lowest barrier. So right away there's a comparison to be made, even if absolutely everything else about the experience is different.

I do disagree with WarCry's views in some areas though:

• LoTRO. It did not do everything people said it needed to do. It was more a photocopy of a photocopy, and only managed to achieve "competent." Competent is not going to do what WoW did to EQ1 did to UO. It needs to expand because straight cannabalization against Blizzard is a fools errand. They'll just open up another warchest.
  
• Like so many other people, they discount how much foreign markets contribute to WoW's sub numbers. You really need to look at WoW by territory to get a better sense of how far ahead the competition it is. And for sub-based games, they are still ahead. But it's not LoTRO's 300k (maybe) against WoW's 9.5mil.
  
• Further on Turbine, WarCry seems to think their "experience" with AC1 and DDO made them as viable as Mythic's WAR will this year. Yea, not so much. For one, AC1 was at any given time maybe half of UO even, and way way behind EQ1. It was a good game, but successful at a time when there were two or three alternatives of similar caliber, at all. And DDO? Really? Mythic's coming from a considerably different angle. And Midway is not EA. (conversely, I do think the Funcom comparison to Turbine is closer).
  
• Finally, my favorite:

At the dawn of the big graphical MMO wars, there were two competing schools of thought: sandboxes and directed experiences. Ultima Online represented the sandbox, while EverQuest represented the directed experience. Up until WoW, that battle was healthy, if slanted towards directed experience games. WoW changed that.

Err, huh? There was a huge balanced fight between sandboxes and directed experiences? UO didn't "represent" the sandbox. It was the sandbox. Someone could mention SWG, but that doesn't apply given what it now is. At least UO still bears some resemblances.

Eh, damn, I just realized I'm ranting about a WarCry piece... turns out I do have too much time on my hands.