Tell me why RMT is any different from...

[Mrbloodworth]

It does if you are competing with farmers to acquire limited resources.

Just like every other player? Players "Farm" as well.

The only thing i can think of that "farmers" have that i don't, is time...so i most likely didn't care that much anyway ;)

[shiznitz]

The "farming" argument is bullshit. Players or bots farm the most efficient X/hour no matter what X is. If a bot isn't doing it, a real person is. What's the difference to me? Nothing.

[Righ]

Suppose that I can get real dollars for the X that I am farming using a bot, and that it significantly exceeds the cost of operating the bot. Would you as a player be happy if I ran so many bots that the only place you could get your X was by buying it from me? There may only be one of me, but there is no limit to the number of bots that I can run on the server farm that I'm buying with the dollars you are sending me to get what you could have acquired much more easily had I not been there. You may want to try playing Lineage (or to a lesser degree Lineage II) to see how much RMT botting can change the game.

[IainC]

The "farming" argument is bullshit. Players or bots farm the most efficient X/hour no matter what X is. If a bot isn't doing it, a real person is. What's the difference to me? Nothing.

Imagine that  there is a popular item in your game which only drops from one particular encounter. This encounter can be done with a smallish group. Smart farmers don't just sit on the best cahs/hr mobs they also farm valuable drops over and over again.

Now say that the encounter which drops this popular item is permacamped and farmed by RMT operators. THey control the supply of that item so they can charge what they like for it. It's going to go into the marketplace at a price that you can only afford if you buy gold or engage in some hardcore grinding of your own. Now they get you both ways, you're giving them ingame currency at a huge rate (which they can sell back) and giving them RL cash for that gold in the first place. This scenario happens in many Korean MMOs and to a certain extent in some Western ones too. Giving RMT operators control of the ingame economy doesn't affect you as a 'regular player'? Really?

[lamaros]

Suppose that I can get real dollars for the X that I am farming using a bot, and that it significantly exceeds the cost of operating the bot. Would you as a player be happy if I ran so many bots that the only place you could get your X was by buying it from me?

Suppose I can get real dollars for the X that I am farming playing the game, and I make enough to consider it worthwhile. Would you as a player be happy if I (and a couple of others, perhaps) played nonstop and cornered as much of this market that you only option of buying this item was from me?

Me, I wouldn't. And If I did I would suggest that the problem is with the game, I don't think there's anything wrong with people playing the game the way they want to play it.

The first case, for me, is not a problem because of farming or RMT but botting.

Good on companies for stopping botting and changing mechanics to make their game play the way they want it to play, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with RMT.

[Righ]

The first case, for me, is not a problem because of farming or RMT but botting.

Yeah, I was replying to some post saying that there was no difference between botted and player actions. There is, but that's also he fundamental problem with RMT - it is associated with behaviour that intrudes on other peoples' play. While its reasonable to say that the games and the actions of the companies that run the games are largely at fault for letting abusive behaviour go unchecked, to most people its the RMT.

[Merusk]

Quadruple ditto to whomever has pointed out that if you bitches would stop playing games where you can't kill other people this wouldn't even be a damn issue.

The commander rune called.  It wanted you to know that you're all kinds of wrong here.

[rk47]

as long the game is not too competitive in nature, i can tolerate RMT to a certain extent, but if it devolves into pvp that involve fighting people in 'super $$$ armour' that you can't beat unless you rot your ass 24/7....i rather not partake in it.

[KallDrexx]

Out of curiosity, because I havne't played it long enough to know, but how rampant is RMT in Eve?

[Simond]

Swarms of macrominers toiling away all over space 23/7. It wouldn't be an exaggeration to say that the EVE economy would collapse if they were disappeared. However, EVE has its own, official version of sort-of-RMT anyway so the situation isn't as straightforward as it would be in generic_diku_derivative #356.

Banning customers of RMT is normally over harsh. In general the fact that you've deleted something they've paid real money for is enough punishment. Backed up with the slap on the wrist when you send them the CS email, this generally ensures that they understand they did something wrong and that they have suffered the consequences for that. Like the vast majority of people who get caught cheating, once they understand that they will get caught and they will be punished, they generally stop doing it. Plus they tell their friends that they got caught and this further impacts on the RMT businesses. In general the only people you should be banning in relation to RMT are the operators. It might be within the remit of the ToS to ban users but it's rarely warranted.

Sod them. Ban them, then issue statements along the lines of "X accounts banned for buying gold. We will continue to do this" and let the banned complain on their guild forums. Scorched earth, then salt the ashes afterwards. Word will still get out, and a few bloodlettings like that will have ten times the effect of monthly "We've banned Y goldfarmers".

As for the "Wah, levelling is hard" crowd...we've been through this already: In WoW, I just levelled an untwinked rogue on a server with a crappy economy from 20 - 60 in the month (and a bit) since the levelling changes went live. I expect to make 70 in another month or two. The daily quests in WoW also basically give you free money at L70 with anything from 11 to 110 gold per day (and soon changing to up to 275 gold/day) plus whatever drops when running them. And that's not catassing it. Short of starting everyone at L70 with 10,000 gold*, there's not much else Blizzard could do to make things easier...and yet RMT is still rampant in WoW.

Now, RMT in the MUSH-derivatives? Go nuts. Who cares if your web-based glorified chatroom allows people to buy new curly wotsits for e-dollarpounds and there's a bunch of macroers doing whatever needs to be done to acquire said e-$£s...all it'll do is annoy the RPers who refuse to pay real money for a single e-pennycent. It won't have any actual impact on the (lack of) gameplay.


*which would drive off the acheivers, which are the majority of WoW's (and most other dikus) playberbase.

[shiznitz]

The first case, for me, is not a problem because of farming or RMT but botting.

Yeah, I was replying to some post saying that there was no difference between botted and player actions.

That was me and, yes, you called me on this correctly. Bots suck and should be actively policed. I was responding to someone complaining about farming. Farming is fine if someone wants to do that and there is always someone who wants to farm.

[Slayerik]

I actually had RMTing bite me in the ass. I returned to Eve, bought some iskies for cheap to get me back on my feet (like 25 bucks for 500mil).

After about I month I log in to find -440,000,000 ... With a negative account balance you cannot contract any items, sell anything (due to the broker fees) ... There are only a couple ways to make money. Killing NPCs, selling one of their time cards, or receiving isk. Luckily my corp is the shit and they threw in to give me 500 mil to help out.

Fact is, I wont buy anymore isk in the game (luckily my initial purchase got me battleships and I recently hit the jackpot on a rare officer spawn). The risk of having my account banned for the next offense outweighs the good of having a little more cash.


For everyone that hates the idea of RMTing I'll save you the text, I got what I 'deserved'!

[Slayerik]

Quadruple ditto to whomever has pointed out that if you bitches would stop playing games where you can't kill other people this wouldn't even be a damn issue.

The commander rune called.  It wanted you to know that you're all kinds of wrong here.

Thieving is the only reason he would be at all wrong here.

If you wanted a Commander spawn, bring some friends. It is an MMO after all. My fav Shadowbane story was from me pummeling a guy at the Commander spawn.

[El Gallo]

The "farming" argument is bullshit. Players or bots farm the most efficient X/hour no matter what X is. If a bot isn't doing it, a real person is. What's the difference to me? Nothing.

People farm without RMT.  However, it's pretty obvious that RMT jacks up the intensity of farming about 1,000%.  If I am camping the Frenzied Ghoul for a FBSS in 2001 Guk, I'm camping because I want the item for my little virtual dude or I want some plat to buy something else for my little virtual dude.  If I don't get it, I'll be bummed, but it won't really be that big a deal.  I also don't want to destroy my reputation, because I need my reputation to get groups, and I need groups to get other things for my little virtual dude.

If, on the other hand, I am camping Guk for money I need to eat and pay my rent so I don't get thrown out on the fucking street I'm going to farm much, much, much more aggressively and I am going to care a whole lot less about other people. And I'll be there all day every day. And I'll hire other people to do it too.

Sometimes differences in degree matter.  Sure, some people care too much about shit in these games.  But a lot more people get a lot more crazy over actual cash.

[Hoax]

Quadruple ditto to whomever has pointed out that if you bitches would stop playing games where you can't kill other people this wouldn't even be a damn issue.

The commander rune called.  It wanted you to know that you're all kinds of wrong here.

Umm no I'm not?

Not once in the 5 months of nonstop SB I played from launch on did I hear fucking dick about RMT.  Too busy killing people.  I'll believe you if you said it existed but it had zero impact on my game experience.  If I wanted a rune I got a posse together and killed anybody else who was trying to get it.  Also I knew at least one solo thief who got several of the high priced runes including commander regularly to give to the nation or sell.

[Merusk]

Quadruple ditto to whomever has pointed out that if you bitches would stop playing games where you can't kill other people this wouldn't even be a damn issue.

The commander rune called.  It wanted you to know that you're all kinds of wrong here.

Umm no I'm not?

Not once in the 5 months of nonstop SB I played from launch on did I hear fucking dick about RMT.  Too busy killing people.  I'll believe you if you said it existed but it had zero impact on my game experience.  If I wanted a rune I got a posse together and killed anybody else who was trying to get it.  Also I knew at least one solo thief who got several of the high priced runes including commander regularly to give to the nation or sell.

Different servers, different happenings.  The commander rune was locked-down by House Daenyr (before it all collapsed) because we set-up our tree right near the guy.  That meant that you had to bring a full nation force to try and get it, or send in a solo thief to try.. and pray Cevik wasn't around on his damned scout.   Either way I recall it going for $500 or better on e-bay very infrequently, and that was about the only way to get it for a good while on our server.

Required items in a PVP+ game are asinine, and only lead to RMT bullshit, anyway.

Then you get into the duping of cash. Something that a 'hardcore' pvp game will drive even more than a hardcore pve game, because those hardcore hate losing more than any other group I've met. 

[DarkSign]

Interesting. Guess that shows how different servers play totally differently. Dread was never like that at all. I'd just hover my bird thief stealthed until someone else killed for the commander room the run like the ...uhm fly like the wind ;)

[Rendakor]

A reason why I (and maybe others?) dislike RMT is that its cheating; its against the rules and thus it's immoral. Quantifying negative effects doesn't change the fact that you're not SUPPOSED to do it.

This is all assuming RMT isn't part of the game. I don't mind it at all on SOEbay servers, KMMOs with cashshops, etc.

[stray]

lol, immorality

I'd say that these games are pretty immoral actually.

Cheating could be illegal though, I'll give you that.

[Nija]

I am kind of in between. I have a couple RMT related stories.

One of my friends started WOW later than the rest of us, and wanted to catch up. He paid some leveling service to level him to 60, and then constantly monitored the account for the next couple days. When the character was 58ish, he logged on and changed the account info and kept the bank/inventory full of awesome, farmed items for himself.

We had a few GMs warn us a few times for cross-teaming in Azshara the first couple months WOW was out. Before they fixed the drop rates on those bird creatures. We'd jump on ventrilo with a 'friendly enemy' guild who was playing alliance, and we'd give the locations of each others farmers and just grief the hell out of them. It was pretty fun.

In Eve, I don't have any specific stories, but everyone treats the farmers like NPCs. You have to let them 'spawn' and let them 'gather' for awhile and then hit them when they are 'ripe'. There really is some skill in 'harvesting the farmers'. None of them can fight, at all, so you've just gotta milk as much out of them as you can. Kill them early and often and they'll leave.

All in all, RMT only bothers me when the game design doesn't let me fix the problem myself. It's annoying when the farmers are on "my team" and I can't make them leave myself - in those most recent games where you're forced to be on some side with a bunch of, mostly retarded, strangers.

[Margalis]

And this is why El Gallo is one of my favorite posters.

People farm without RMT.  However, it's pretty obvious that RMT jacks up the intensity of farming about 1,000%.  If I am camping the Frenzied Ghoul for a FBSS in 2001 Guk, I'm camping because I want the item for my little virtual dude or I want some plat to buy something else for my little virtual dude.  If I don't get it, I'll be bummed, but it won't really be that big a deal.  I also don't want to destroy my reputation, because I need my reputation to get groups, and I need groups to get other things for my little virtual dude.

If, on the other hand, I am camping Guk for money I need to eat and pay my rent so I don't get thrown out on the fucking street I'm going to farm much, much, much more aggressively and I am going to care a whole lot less about other people. And I'll be there all day every day. And I'll hire other people to do it too.

Sometimes differences in degree matter.  Sure, some people care too much about shit in these games.  But a lot more people get a lot more crazy over actual cash.

Thread over.

Also how did this get by unscathed?

If you are just soloing, then you don't care who you outlevel.

What an incredibly naive statement. PVE MMOs are mostly a very passive-aggressive form of competition. This should be beyond obvious to anyone who either plays them or reads forums.

[WindupAtheist]

Being killed by players is just a predictable business expense for the RMT companies.  "Stopping them yourself" means nothing.

[Simond]

...except in EVE, where every ship lost is a bite taken out of their profit margins.

They sell ISK. Ships cost ISK to buy and fit. Insurance, at best, covers somewhere in the region of 2/3rds of the total cost of a ship (including fittings). Every ship lost is 1/3rd of that ship's price of ISK gone that they could have otherwise sold.

[Jayce]

I'd say that these games are pretty immoral actually.

Explain?

[ajax34i]

It's still predictable, and can be treated as a simple expense.  They may even have maps that show how often they're killed per day for different regions.  With color codes and stuff.  They also fly ships that are much cheaper than their profit margins; typically you're getting a load of ore, the odd industrial, or the odd osprey - that's nothing.

[Slayerik]

It's still predictable, and can be treated as a simple expense.  They may even have maps that show how often they're killed per day for different regions.  With color codes and stuff.  They also fly ships that are much cheaper than their profit margins; typically you're getting a load of ore, the odd industrial, or the odd osprey - that's nothing.

In my Eve corp we inflict greater loses than that daily...Ratting Battleships mainly. What people either forget or don't know about Eve is...You dont just respawn where you were. When you are podded you have to buy a new clone, buy a new ship, refit it and try to get it back out to 0.0 (unless the farmers are already based out of some station, but risky moving ratting ships regardless). They can take precautions like cloaks/warp core stabs but it slows down their kills/hr significantly. This has no effect on macro miners though.

[shiznitz]

What I just read is that the RMT farmers in Eve actually add to the game experience for some people. They provide fun that the developer didn't have to design. Every RMT farmer killed by a real player means one less real player killed by a real player which means one less real player potentially quitting in frustration. The anti-RMT coalition also adds to the community aspect of the game.

Sounds like PvP games should allow RMT and let the players police it. It's free content.

[Kirth]

We had a few GMs warn us a few times for cross-teaming in Azshara the first couple months WOW was out. Before they fixed the drop rates on those bird creatures. We'd jump on ventrilo with a 'friendly enemy' guild who was playing alliance, and we'd give the locations of each others farmers and just grief the hell out of them. It was pretty fun.

Funny thing, me and my friends actually used to protect the farmers in Azshara for some reason. when Honor was rolled out (before Battlegrounds) we used to patrol for horde to kill and it got that the farmers knew us and would send us tells like "Help Horde Kill".

[stray]

I'd say that these games are pretty immoral actually.

Explain?

They fail to deliver teh "fun".

[WayAbvPar]

Sounds like PvP games should allow RMT and let the players police it. It's free content.

If there was a surefire way to tell the farmers from the n00bs who just don't know any better, I am all for it. Killing a bot farmer would make my day.

[Jayce]

I'd say that these games are pretty immoral actually.

Explain?

They fail to deliver teh "fun".

Really?

You probably could have just posted "I'm a raging retard" instead.   Or I don't get your humor.  One of the two.

[stray]

Yes, you certainly do not get the humor.

The point of the post was to correct him on using the word "immoral" when it comes to cheating in games, and saying that it was best to use the word "illegal". "Immoral" is an extreme word. The rest of my post was a joke... Y'know... blah, blah, blah, "if there's anything 'immoral' when it comes to games, then it's shitty games".

Now lighten the fuck up, please. Have no fear. I'm not Jack Thompson.

[Slayerik]

Sounds like PvP games should allow RMT and let the players police it. It's free content.

If there was a surefire way to tell the farmers from the n00bs who just don't know any better, I am all for it. Killing a bot farmer would make my day.

In Eve its usually a very asian name (sorry to generalize) or something like wkljree. Even if they aren't a farmer, I say kill them for having a farmer name anyways! :)

[Raph]

PVE MMOs are mostly a very passive-aggressive form of competition. This should be beyond obvious to anyone who either plays them or reads forums.

What an incredibly sad commentary on the state of the genre...

[waylander]

Even if they aren't a farmer, I say kill them for having a farmer name anyways! :)

That's what we used to do. I remember back in UO we would go around looking for macroing miners and then do our best to kill them. We couldn't get their loot, but at least we could stop them from power farming the resource so that someone else could get to it.

UO's fundamental problem with PK's was that it was simply more lucrative to farm players than it was to farm monsters. If they had figured out a way to address that, then a lot of the PVP that did occur could have been the clan vs clan stuff while leaving most innocent bystanders alone.