WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Lakov_Sanite]

In fact people seem to want it so much WoW devs just recently went and re-designed most of the game to lessen it significantly.

Lessen it, yes.  Significantly, no.  They threw people a small bone. 

If Blizzard wanted to get rid of the grind it wouldn't take much at all.  Why don't they?  It's not a sound financial decision. 

Not to derail but even before the exp boost calling levelling in wow a grind to anyone who played EQ1-2, AO, DAOC....every other online game...is just silly. Wow doesn't hand you a level 70 but the 1-70 experience right now is about as good as it can get. Wow has a lot of things wrong but I'll never say the pacing and fun i had levelling was a problem.

That said I've levelled four 70's I'm done, can't do those same zones again no matter what but hell that's fine by me really, i doubt there's any game i could playthrough over five times and still enjoy old content, mmo or not. 

I'm willing to bet you a steak dinner* (should you come to ATL) that it will take the average WAR player a good three-four months to reach the cap and not to mention that there will be a raiding/equipment grind towards the end.  Look guys, this is mythic here, they aren't innovaters, there's not going to be glorious new systems you haven't tried before that blows you out of the water. This is DAOC 2.0, which in itself just ripped off of EQ.

Before you say it yes, wow just does the same things, they take what's good and improve it but the problem with mythic always seems to be that they take what they think works and will retain customers, they don't actually take what they think will be fun. AA's anyone?






*steak dinner may also be a #2 combo at burger king

[Schazzwozzer]

For the same reason that beef tastes meaty or chocolate tastes chocolatey.  MMO's are grindy by definition.  MMO gamers want goals.  My hope is that the grind is more fun than other MMO grinds.  Expecting there to be no grind in an MMO is setting yourself up for disappointment.

I don't agree that the majority of players want grind.  I think players want to be constantly rewarded, but only a small slice of all players truly want their game to feel like work.

However, I don't feel like arguing the point, so I'll cede that grind is a part of these games and all Diku-types will have it.  One thing I like about WAR, by the way, is that they're specifically planning for optional post-max level grind.  The Tome of Knowledge, for instance, tracks your exploits, and rewards you with fairly superficial things, such as titles, trophies, etc.

And for anyone frightened at the number 200+ hours, Raph recently posted that for any online world type game, “a regular user spends 20 hours a week.”  If that's true, then for the regular user, it will take around three months to get to max level, which really isn't too bad.  And of course, developers always underestimate these things, and players find a way to power level as efficiently as possible, so, well, there ya go.

[tmp]

Lessen it, yes.  Significantly, no.  They threw people a small bone. 

But if people truly *want* and *like* the grind, how is lessening it "throwing them a bone" at all? You basically contradict yourself there...

Yes, it boils down to grind being 'sound financial mechanics' but it's different animal from player preferences. Has more to do with "how long can we keep people playing before they get fed up to point they quit" rather than what they actually like.

[Ratman_tf]

People don't like the grind. They like to advance their character. They also realize that they're not going to get handed level 70 five minutes after starting a new character.

Everybody wriggles in the middle over levels and xp and advancement.

[Mrbloodworth]

I think the advent of "The grind" is directly related to lack of diverse game play and the use of a sliding (and expanding) scale attached to experience and "Levels".

At level 1, you need to kill 10 things, at level 70 it seems to increase to 200 even if they are worth more. Thats "The grind" right there. Something that would cure this, is if mobs were more intelligent, or had more challenging ways to be defeated, instead of lumping more and more numbers on it.

Thats part of the reason i really like LOTRO "Dread" system, even if it isn't exactly a fix.

And why do encounters in mmogs always have to be about a MOB? Why cant it be about overcoming the environment (puzzles, NPC branching dialog, espionage, navigation) and THEN attacking a not over 9000 mob(basically the mob its self dosn't need to be supper HP etc inflated)? You know, skill of the player, not skill of the toon.

[eldaec]

At level 1, you need to kill 10 things, at level 70 it seems to increase to 200 even if they are worth more. Thats "The grind" right there. Something that would cure this, is if mobs were more intelligent, or had more challenging ways to be defeated, instead of lumping more and more numbers on it.

In daoc, it was exactly 10 snakes or rats to move from level 1 to level 2.

I vaguely remember calculating the number of Pirate Trees you had to slay in order to move from level 49 to level 50. It was in the hundreds of thousands.


What really got on my wick was Mythic declaring that this was important because level 50 had to feel like 'an achievement'.

Standing in one spot repeating the same action over a hundred thousand times is not an achievement.


It got slightly better after the first expansion when advancement became largely quest based, but even then, following instructions never really feels like an achievement.

I never understand why combat can't be made more interactive. CoX and EQ2 started moving a tiny distance along this road - but there is an awful long way to go.

[Nevermore]

Isn't the issue there still latency between the client and server and server lag as it tries to process the actions of up to hundreds of characters at once in a particular zone?

[Mrbloodworth]

Isn't the issue there still latency between the client and server and server lag as it tries to process the actions of up to hundreds of characters at once in a particular zone?

As far as i know, a lot of games still try to limit to the 56k limit. I am sure there are exceptions.

[Nebu]

But if people truly *want* and *like* the grind, how is lessening it "throwing them a bone" at all? You basically contradict yourself there...

I think I'm just explaining myself poorly.  People want to feel like they've accomplished something and when a task seems a bit like a chore, the ding tastes a bit sweeter.  Does that makes sense?  It's like the pain of the task sweetens the deal.  If you trivialize the trip, people don't feel that same sens of accomplishment. 

Now I'm not saying that I agree with this... I just want to have fun.  It just seems like MMO gamers have some type of inborn pain fascination. 

[Sky]

You know, skill of the player, not skill of the toon.

Never underestimate exactly how low the LCD is.

But maybe something more along the lines of KotOR, where you could complete logic puzzles to rewire a robot, convince someone through dialog to do it for you, or just smash it with a hammer.

[Mrbloodworth]

You know, skill of the player, not skill of the toon.

Never underestimate exactly how low the LCD is.

But maybe something more along the lines of KotOR, where you could complete logic puzzles to rewire a robot, convince someone through dialog to do it for you, or just smash it with a hammer.

I'm all for options for completion. But yeah, you get my point. It doesn't always have to be KILL MOB X.

For fucks sake, give me a multi branching, multi ending, which-way-book, murder mystery!

[WayAbvPar]

I would love to see player skill and innovation take a front seat in PvP. I play BF2 (still!), and there are always several different ways to skin a cat there. I may not be the best player in a head to head shootout, but I can hold my own (and then some) by outthinking and outmaneuvering the other players. Playing a game on rails is exactly zero fun. Find a way to let the players be creative.

[Nebu]

Latency is a bit of an issue, but play that centers around tactical decisions rather than twitch could easily remedy this.  I'd MUCH rather goal completion be determined by skill rather than time.  With cheat sites, UI upgrades, and the like I'm not sure how much skill these games really require beyond the first couple of times someone does an encounter.

[Mrbloodworth]

With cheat sites, UI upgrades, and the like I'm not sure how much skill these games really require beyond the first couple of times someone does an encounter.

Thats why i said "multi branching, multi ending, which-way-book, murder mystery!". can end any number of way ETC...

[Nebu]

Thats why i said "multi branching, multi ending, which-way-book, murder mystery!". can end any number of way ETC...

I think the last 10 years has shown us that no matter how clever a development house is, the playerbase will always find a creative workaround to any encounter.

[IainC]

You know, skill of the player, not skill of the toon.

Never underestimate exactly how low the LCD is.

But maybe something more along the lines of KotOR, where you could complete logic puzzles to rewire a robot, convince someone through dialog to do it for you, or just smash it with a hammer.

75% of players will complain that the quest is bugged because the mob isn't attackable.

99.9% of the rest will simply read the walkthrough on Allakhazam and then complain about how pointless shit like this slows them down when they're just trying to level.

Better mob AI isn't a panacea either for much the same reasons. Complex AI still comes down to predictable responses to triggers, eventually players will map it and your complex mob that caused you weeks of pain on test because it was a bitch to get to work right becomes a speedbump just like the 10,000 other world mobs that are stood around waiting for someone to walk into their aggro radius. I'm all for cleverer design and a more immersive experience but it doesn't solve the problems that people seem to think that it does.

[tmp]

I think I'm just explaining myself poorly.  People want to feel like they've accomplished something and when a task seems a bit like a chore, the ding tastes a bit sweeter.  Does that makes sense?  It's like the pain of the task sweetens the deal.  If you trivialize the trip, people don't feel that same sens of accomplishment. 

Now I'm not saying that I agree with this... I just want to have fun.  It just seems like MMO gamers have some type of inborn pain fascination. 

Hmm i see and yes it does make sense, but tbh i think the large part of playerbase is closer to your own stance; they want fun. People are increasingly into instant gratification and anything that ain't is likely to cause the whine. There might be some who will choose to plow on not even despite the cockpuncture but because of it, but i believe these to be minority nowadays.

Ratman put it well there, people like "ding ding ding" but not when it feels like work to get it... at least considering how no one seems to complain about speed of newbie levelling experience, but it's given there's pretty much always some comments "but past level X it turns into chore".

[tmp]

I think the last 10 years has shown us that no matter how clever a development house is, the playerbase will always find a creative workaround to any encounter.

10 years ain't mean shit, the inspiration comes from as far as 18 years back

Sid Meier's Covert Action: http://www.the-underdogs.info/game.php?id=236

should be obligatory study for everyone yapping about the 'procedurally generated content' nowadays. srsly.

[Mrbloodworth]

Thats why i said "multi branching, multi ending, which-way-book, murder mystery!". can end any number of way ETC...

I think the last 10 years has shown us that no matter how clever a development house is, the playerbase will always find a creative workaround to any encounter.

This happen all ready, so who cares! Point being, its not necessarily one way, it branches in the body, and the end. Like the game of clue in a way, but it dosn't have to end the same way for each person.

75% of players will complain that the quest is bugged because the mob isn't attackable.

99.9% of the rest will simply read the walkthrough on Allakhazam and then complain about how pointless shit like this slows them down when they're just trying to level.

Better mob AI isn't a panacea either for much the same reasons. Complex AI still comes down to predictable responses to triggers, eventually players will map it and your complex mob that caused you weeks of pain on test because it was a bitch to get to work right becomes a speedbump just like the 10,000 other world mobs that are stood around waiting for someone to walk into their aggro radius. I'm all for cleverer design and a more immersive experience but it doesn't solve the problems that people seem to think that it does.

AGAIN, it happens anyway. So, who cares. I mean dam, Wow has a UI add on that shows you where everything is IN GAME!

You have already stated that this will always happen, and it does now. So i don't think it can continue to be used as a reason not to.

The whole "complain because i'm just trying to level", that kind of a redundant statement. With systems like this, people wont just be trying to level. recall, thats the thing its trying to solve.

Mabye i'm not explaining myself well.

[Nebu]

This happen all ready, so who cares! Point being, its not necessarily one way, it branches in the body, and the end. Like the game of clue in a way, but it dosn't have to end the same way for each person.

I'd love to see something like this... but what incentive is there to produce it when WoW has shown you can give a stylized and streamlined treadmill and garner 10 million subs?  The project you propose would likely eat up considerably more resources for less net payback.  (i.e. you don't have to give people steak if they'll be content with hamburger).  I guess we'll keep getting WoW clones until we start demanding better than WoW clones.  It's going to be a while.

[Xanthippe]

Find a way to let the players be creative.

Yes yes yes.

CoX does this with character creation.  ATiTD did it with crafting.

I don't know who has done it with pve combat, or what's been done with combat that's particularly creative in an mmo - I don't think I've seen it. Can't remember anything standing out (which may be why pve is my least favorite activity in an mmo).

PvP (or RvR) has a great deal of creativity, especially the first few weeks/months of a game before the min/maxers get everything figured out.

[Mrbloodworth]

This happen all ready, so who cares! Point being, its not necessarily one way, it branches in the body, and the end. Like the game of clue in a way, but it dosn't have to end the same way for each person.

I'd love to see something like this... but what incentive is there to produce it when WoW has shown you can give a stylized and streamlined treadmill and garner 10 million subs?  The project you propose would likely eat up considerably more resources for less net payback.  (i.e. you don't have to give people steak if they'll be content with hamburger).  I guess we'll keep getting WoW clones until we start demanding better than WoW clones.  It's going to be a while.

I think its more of a paradigm change. Thinking about such a system, while trying to encapsulate it the Wow format will always lead to confusion.

[Xanthippe]

You haven't played DAoC for a while.  On the classic ruleset servers one can level a toon to 50 and gear it to the gills in about 2 days played or less.  Even getting a toon to 70 in WoW in 2 days would earn you some sort of record... and then there's the issue of gearing up. 

Yes, the grind in WoW is significantly longer than DAoC.  I'd say by a factor of 5.  I'm currently playing WoW, have several level 70's, and am feeling the grind. 

Wait, are you talking about soloing a toon to 50, or are you talking about getting some 50s to pbaoe your noob to 50 for you?

Aside:  You might not have felt the grind in WoW the way you did if you weren't so obsessively single minded about getting there!  You really worked at it quick, no wonder you burned out.  My druid's still only like 62, but my Outlands memories haven't faded enough for me to want to work very hard at it.  I still like stopping to pvp at the high end of the decades to figure out what I'm doing in the battlegrounds.  And I know that when I hit 70, my druid's going to be fodder for a couple of months in the BGs.  So I'm in no rush to hit max for that reason, either.

[Ratman_tf]

Thats why i said "multi branching, multi ending, which-way-book, murder mystery!". can end any number of way ETC...

I think the last 10 years has shown us that no matter how clever a development house is, the playerbase will always find a creative workaround to any encounter.

A stubborn GM fights his players. A clever GM works with them to make the session cooler/morefun.

[Sky]

75% of players will complain that the quest is bugged because the mob isn't attackable.

99.9% of the rest will simply read the walkthrough on Allakhazam and then complain about how pointless shit like this slows them down when they're just trying to level.

Better mob AI isn't a panacea either for much the same reasons. Complex AI still comes down to predictable responses to triggers, eventually players will map it and your complex mob that caused you weeks of pain on test because it was a bitch to get to work right becomes a speedbump just like the 10,000 other world mobs that are stood around waiting for someone to walk into their aggro radius. I'm all for cleverer design and a more immersive experience but it doesn't solve the problems that people seem to think that it does.

Well, I did say you could bash the robot if you wanted. Dinggratz!

But your points on walkthroughs and AI, I agree with those completely. However, now you're talking about designing around the LCD mindset. Just because some players want to use cheat guides to rob themselves of a quality gaming experience, everyone else has to deal with the watered-down, retarded gameplay we're left with.

So basically you're saying thinking adults who want an engaging game experience should hang it up because the thousands of kiddies out there don't want to think too hard on their way to dinggratz? Wow.

[Venkman]

Nebu: you didn't answer my and Merusk's question about how people can grind out level 50 in DAoC in two days. This is corrollary to what I asked as well. What is the basis for comparison, because DAoC AOE grind groups does not equal WoW solo quest grinding.

If the baseline is someone starting each game fresh, with no strong social ties in either one, I would wager quite strongly that WoW is the much faster game to level up in. I'd also say it's probably one of the fastest at which you can reach the cap, with GW edging past it only because there's 60% less levels to gain

Having asked that, I do totally agree with you here:

People want to feel like they've accomplished something and when a task seems a bit like a chore, the ding tastes a bit sweeter.

At the same time, I don't want MMOs to have better AI and more compelling stories. Otherwise we're sliding towards RPGs here with carefully crafted worlds guaranteed to make each person special. WoW already gets us most of the way there with so much compartmentalized content.

I'd rather see more open worldiness where the sting of defeat is not felt in your XP meter or gear so that players only mind it because they lost. Odd that the popularity of FPS games has never been hindered by them being full-PvP with permadeath.

[Schazzwozzer]

For fucks sake, give me a multi branching, multi ending, which-way-book, murder mystery!

If this is really what you guys are clamoring over, you may want to keep an eye out for the Bioware MMO.  Based on an interview a good while back, they're looking to take the same style of quests from their single player games and inject them into an MMO.  I'm assuming that would include multiple solutions, etc.

[Triforcer]

75% of players will complain that the quest is bugged because the mob isn't attackable.

99.9% of the rest will simply read the walkthrough on Allakhazam and then complain about how pointless shit like this slows them down when they're just trying to level.

Better mob AI isn't a panacea either for much the same reasons. Complex AI still comes down to predictable responses to triggers, eventually players will map it and your complex mob that caused you weeks of pain on test because it was a bitch to get to work right becomes a speedbump just like the 10,000 other world mobs that are stood around waiting for someone to walk into their aggro radius. I'm all for cleverer design and a more immersive experience but it doesn't solve the problems that people seem to think that it does.

Well, I did say you could bash the robot if you wanted. Dinggratz!

But your points on walkthroughs and AI, I agree with those completely. However, now you're talking about designing around the LCD mindset. Just because some players want to use cheat guides to rob themselves of a quality gaming experience, everyone else has to deal with the watered-down, retarded gameplay we're left with.

So basically you're saying thinking adults who want an engaging game experience should hang it up because the thousands of kiddies out there don't want to think too hard on their way to dinggratz? Wow.

Thousands of kiddies > a few thinking adults.  Why?  Hint:  its green and has pictures of Presidents and floating eyeballs!

[Mrbloodworth]

At the same time, I don't want MMOs to have better AI and more compelling stories. Otherwise we're sliding towards RPGs here with carefully crafted worlds guaranteed to make each person special. WoW already gets us most of the way there with so much compartmentalized content.

You can have both. Sandbox world, with directed content areas. Including the type i am talking about.

[tmp]

I'd rather see more open worldiness where the sting of defeat is not felt in your XP meter or gear so that players only mind it because they lost. Odd that the popularity of FPS games has never been hindered by them being full-PvP with permadeath.

Is there really any FPS with permadeath out there? Like, when you get shot in Battlefield or something, you lose all your unlocked gear and badges and stats and start with blank slate?

[Mrbloodworth]

I'd rather see more open worldiness where the sting of defeat is not felt in your XP meter or gear so that players only mind it because they lost. Odd that the popularity of FPS games has never been hindered by them being full-PvP with permadeath.

Is there really any FPS with permadeath out there? Like, when you get shot in Battlefield or something, you lose all your unlocked gear and badges and stats and start with blank slate?

No, i think he means if you die, your done with that session.

[Sky]

Thousands of kiddies > a few thinking adults.  Why?  Hint:  its green and has pictures of Presidents and floating eyeballs!

Thanks for that quality bit of enlightenment.

[Nebu]

Nebu: you didn't answer my and Merusk's question about how people can grind out level 50 in DAoC in two days. This is corrollary to what I asked as well. What is the basis for comparison, because DAoC AOE grind groups does not equal WoW solo quest grinding.

A BD, Necro, Valkyrie, Reaver, Vamp, or any archery class would go like this: Level 1-25 in TD's.  Level 26 - 50 in the frontiers, PoC, or DF.  Cats quests and some of the quest lines to get your weapon finish the deal.  I soloed a valkyrie with no help, no gold, and entirely solo in about 30h played.  Knowledge of the game helped, but you can easily get that from the boards.  Then it's just farming Labyrinth quests and such to gear up, buy crafted armor to fill gaps, and have a spellcrafter imbue it all.  Done. 

Is it fun?  No.  Not at all.  It's horrible.  WoW wins hands down in the pve fun department. 

I leveled a BD, Valkyrie, Ranger, Hunter, Scout, VW, Reaver, and friar all this way.  If you have a second account with a 50 on it, the process gets much easier.  An AE group or even a friend with a necro/cleric combination can level someone from 1-40 in 2h.  I know, I've done it. 

[Venkman]

Yea, 30h played to cap is pretty fast

You can have both. Sandbox world, with directed content areas. Including the type i am talking about.

I can also have an MMOFPS in a fantasy setting with player generated crafted goods, houses to sell them in, cities to populate those with, politicians to run the show, an army of military guys to control, flight, driving, halberds. And a pony.

But am I going to get all of that? 

I may just be losing patience with brainstorming. There's so being done in so many places that I prefer to consider what could be in the context of what companies are actually going to do for markets that actually exist. I'd rather talk about what can be brought here to spice things up, rather than talk about how we can get more of the same but better. That corrolates with:

Is there really any FPS with permadeath out there?

I was half-kiddingly referrencing COD4 here. You launch in with whatever templated gear you've got. Then you pick up that crazy P40 thing with the AGOC scope you can get when you hit level 40. Then you die and drop your stuff. You just "lost your sh*t" to an opponent, which is how you got the P40 in the first place. And yet you're back in the game five seconds (or longer, depending) later.

Granted, FPS <> RPG player. But WoW got so big on the backs of gamers they attracted, people playing, like, other stuff.

What else can this genre borrow from the big successes of other ones?

[Merusk]

Find a way to let the players be creative.

Yes yes yes.

CoX does this with character creation.  ATiTD did it with crafting.

I don't know who has done it with pve combat, or what's been done with combat that's particularly creative in an mmo - I don't think I've seen it.

Being creative in PvE combat usually means 'using terrain/ spells in ways unintended by the designer.'  Things like Kiting, quad-kiting or bard-kiting or a really good Neco being able to solo Karnor's Castle in EQ.  Perching in AC2, Spawn Chaining in EvE or AOE grinding in WoW.  9/10 times these things are "fixed" in a later patch because, "We don't want you playing that way, it's imbalanced."

PvE is a harsh mistress this way.