WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Njal]

Mutters something about the NDA and something placating about stealth.

[Aez]

I thought this was a funny take on stealth balance (at least in WoW), I think it is a bit old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJWeWMKfa3g

Completely true.  It's so evident I can't believe designer haven't figured it out.

Am I the only person who kind of liked the gameplay aspect WoW?  To be honest if they developed a game that was as polished as WoW, a bit better balanced, and focused on PvP instead of grindy-ass PvE, I would be happy for a long, long time.

It's Mythic.  Their track record at balanced is absolutely awful.  They won't achieve better balancing than Blizzard, who's probably the best developer for balance.

[Johny Cee]

I wouldn't mind a "invisible" style stealther in War if they divorced the invisibility ability from the high alpha strike/high damage rogue archetype.  Make it a scouting character/gameplay,  where you achieve by reporting enemy units and movements.  The TF2 Spy style of stealth/infiltration would be interesting as well, though you got me how you'd implement it.

Hell, you could have certain points that have to be clicked on by a character with the "Scouting" ability. Clicking on the point (only clickable by scouts of course) would give exp/rp's/whatever unit of advancement measure. If you really wanted to make it challenging, make it so the point couldn't be tabbed onto, and that you had to be within a certain distance to be able to click on it, or even click on it and have a progress bar before you get the scouting exp.

That kind of gameplay is possible, it just requires thinking "outside the box."

As for 3rd party programs killing environment-based stealth, BF2 HAS radar built-in, and it doesn't really invalidate the use of stealth.

Unless BF2 radar let's you see all non-invisible characters where ever they are waaaay past clipping range, it's not the same.  There was nothing like being hidden IN a piece of geography and watching a group of enemies beeline you from out past the horizon in DAoC. 

I'd like to see stealthers with a "report enemy" ability:  target and report an enemy so they show up on your side's war map for a limited time,  and your side can then jump on him.  Reward the stealther for reporting the enemy,  and when the enemy is killed while he's reported.

[HaemishM]

I didn't say it would be of NO consequence, just that it really wouldn't matter all that much. If you play a pure melee with no ranged weapons character in something like a fantasy, magic-heavy game like an MMO, you deserve to get ganked from stealth every time. History has shown that Ranged Combat > Melee Combat every time. The only way to balance that is to make ranged combat horribly inaccurate, which would piss off the ranged combat folks something fierce, or give the melee characters serious protection against ranged combat (armor against arrows, magic wards against magic) or give the melee characters some ability to fight back at range.

EDIT: Or make the ranged attacks have a long recycle time (reloading the bow or crossbow, regaining magic power). Mages want to be able to spam spells, so would probably hate a "balanced" game.

[Threash]

I didn't say it would be of NO consequence, just that it really wouldn't matter all that much. If you play a pure melee with no ranged weapons character in something like a fantasy, magic-heavy game like an MMO, you deserve to get ganked from stealth every time. History has shown that Ranged Combat > Melee Combat every time. The only way to balance that is to make ranged combat horribly inaccurate, which would piss off the ranged combat folks something fierce, or give the melee characters serious protection against ranged combat (armor against arrows, magic wards against magic) or give the melee characters some ability to fight back at range.

EDIT: Or make the ranged attacks have a long recycle time (reloading the bow or crossbow, regaining magic power). Mages want to be able to spam spells, so would probably hate a "balanced" game.

Thats not really how it works in wow, melee combat has always been tops.

[tmp]

If you play a pure melee with no ranged weapons character in something like a fantasy, magic-heavy game like an MMO, you deserve to get ganked from stealth every time. History has shown that Ranged Combat > Melee Combat every time.

Well, so basically we move from situation where stealth melee has good chance to gank ranged casters and stand up to regular melee if they get drop on them... to situation where stealthed ranged casters gank anyone. Because that's historically accurate.

Fun? Improvement?

[HaemishM]

If stealth isn't invisibility and is instead environmental stealth, then it becomes a matter of player skill, which if done right, is fun.

If done wrong... well, it doesn't matter what the design is if it's done wrong.

[Merusk]

Key factor to remember: Losing is always "unfun."  Just don't make it so someone is able to always (or even the majority of the time) win.

Yes, so simple yet damn near impossible.

Oh, and stealth means if I play at all it'll be as a stealth class.  I've learned my lesson about not playing the stealther in PVP, and I'm not making that mistake ever again.  Hello 10thousand stealthers.. yay!

[tmp]

If stealth isn't invisibility and is instead environmental stealth, then it becomes a matter of player skill, which if done right, is fun.

If you come from position that 'melee in magic setting deserves to get [long range] ganked from stealth every time' it leaves no room for player skill.

[Nevermore]

Key factor to remember: Losing is always "unfun."

I disagree.  Some of the best fights I had in DAoC ended up with me on the losing side.  They were fun fights because they were actual *fights*, not ganks.  Either side could have ended up winning up until the very end.  Almost none of those fights involved any kind of stealth.

[Hoax]

It's Mythic.  Their track record at balanced is absolutely awful.  They won't achieve better balancing than Blizzard, who's probably the best developer for balance.

qfft

Somehow in a bizzare twist this board is a Mythic fanboi zone.  I really really did want WAR to do well, I like Jacobs he always seems like a smart, nice stand up guy but once the borg got them and every new leak was about how they were more like DAOC or more like WoW I gave up hope.  Now I'm looking forward to this game's utter failure because its just like DAOC, which doesn't cut it by a mile.  If only to serve a nice dose of stfu to people like Eldaec  who will undoubtedly exclaim that its because WAR isn't enough like DAOC in just the right way!  That pvp system wasn't even that good. 

*added smiley because on re-read it sounded angrier then I wanted it to*

re: Stealth

Don't do it.  Its just too hard to balance and the lore doesn't call for it in the slightest since you aren't including Skaven.  Which btw was a terrible call, Skaven are awesome.

[Nebu]

It's Mythic.  Their track record at balanced is absolutely awful.  They won't achieve better balancing than Blizzard, who's probably the best developer for balance.

I have to disagree.  Completely. 

Have either of you played on the classic rule set servers in the past 6 months?

[cmlancas]

Is Blizzard really balanced? We're not EQ1 style PVP broken here, but c'mon now. Balance?

[eldaec]

Don't get me wrong, if they want to make a non-RvR game, then fair enough.

I just wish they would either make an RvR game that builds forward from Daoc and makes it more accessible, and less dependent on landing on a good server, or make something else entirely. At the moment they are doing neither.

They seem to be driving for a wishy-washy mix of Daoc WoW and GW, without moving any of the three strands forward. Daoc had far more clear steps forward from prior games than WAR has so far.



Anyway, in the end, the problems with Daoc, WoW, and GW, were not that they each lacked a weak-sauce implementation of each others mechanics.


As for WAR failing, the game is almost certain to land in the region between 200k and 1M subs, where Mythic can claim success, anyone who dislikes it can deride it as failure, and neither conclusion has any real meaning. Such is the crazy world of the current MMOG market.

It's Mythic.  Their track record at balanced is absolutely awful. 

Reasonable people can disagree on this.

I'm not saying daoc didn't have issues at times, but they were no worse than other mmogs, and better than most.

[eldaec]

Is Blizzard really balanced? We're not EQ1 style PVP broken here, but c'mon now. Balance?

WoW is balanced, not that it means anything, since the two sides are identical.

Starcraft is balanced, which is more impressive I guess.

[cmlancas]

Oh. I interpreted balance to mean "class balance." Which made me do a giant 

Realm balance, fair enough. Although it wasn't balanced when it came out. My fear ward on my dwarf priest made me practically unstoppable (with the exception of druids).

[Nebu]

WoW is balanced, not that it means anything, since the two sides are identical.

I completely misunderstood.  Good point.

Although, while the exact same classes on both sides is balance, it's really not an accomplishment to do so.  DAoC has moved toward this and the result is a game that feels a lot less interesting.  One could also argue that chess is balanced, but we all know that playing black is a very different game from playing white.  It's all in perspective. 

Now if we're going to talk about WoW and class balance... that I would take issue with.

[eldaec]

Oh. I interpreted balance to mean "class balance." Which made me do a giant 

Hoax might well have meant class balance and I could be the one missing the point just as easily.

[Rondaror]

re: Stealth

Don't do it.  Its just too hard to balance and the lore doesn't call for it in the slightest since you aren't including Skaven.  Which btw was a terrible call, Skaven are awesome.

I have read that Skaven are one of the races on the list for 1. expansion

[Nebu]

I have read that Skaven are one of the races on the list for 1. expansion

I love it when unreleased games talk about expansion content.  It gives me great hope for their state at release.

[Hoax]

I thought this was a funny take on stealth balance (at least in WoW), I think it is a bit old.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJWeWMKfa3g

Here's where the balance talk came from, which was part of stealth classes break pvp games.  Which to me meant balance as in class balance.

The only thing Mythic has working for them on that front is they FAILED so utterly last time around that maybe they will remember to actually fucking work on it this time?  Or something?  I think the balance is going to be shit at launch personally.

[cmlancas]

Thats not really how it works in wow, melee combat has always been tops.

Tell you what. 1v1 with average gear, a hunter shouldn't die to a rogue, every time. I'm not sure how always applies here.

[Hoax]

Using typical DnD inspired Diku class design:

Open/World pvp -- Range is best.

Sport pvp -- Melee is best.

[Threash]

Thats not really how it works in wow, melee combat has always been tops.

Tell you what. 1v1 with average gear, a hunter shouldn't die to a rogue, every time. I'm not sure how always applies here.

Hunters are the anti rogue class, it has to do with their skill set and not their range.  Try beating a warrior though.

[tazelbain]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

[Nebu]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

Exactly.  I hate the whole Rock-Paper-Scissors bit.  If everyone can kill everyone, then each encounter would be fun for BOTH players.

[tmp]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

Why not just ability to choose any class, then? Simpler and has the same effect (depending on your choice and whoever you run into you'll either rape or get raped) Not to mention giving some class-defeating abilities would be quite difficult when each class can re-configure themselves.

That is of course unless i'm misreading what you're saying, and what you're saying is actually something like "make every class able to defeat any other and then it doesn't matter which one people choose to play" (as they're then all one and the same, just with different names)

[Aez]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

You're not going far enough.  Give every class a decent hope of winning any match up all the time.  Player skill, preparation, strategy and a hint of luck should decide the outcome of a duel.

[Nebu]

That is of course unless i'm misreading what you're saying, and what you're saying is actually something like "make every class able to defeat any other and then it doesn't matter which one people choose to play" (as they're then all one and the same, just with different names)

I think he's saying something more like: Give every class unique yet balanced abilities such that classes have their own flavor, but aren't fodder for other classes. 

[rk47]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

now you're talking about first person shooters.

[eldaec]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

now you're talking about first person shooters.

Not really.

There is no other, genre, game or sport I can think of designed to play as scissors-paper-rock, where each player is locked into one or the other for an entire match, let alone their entire playing 'career'.

[Typhon]

What I think he's talking about is something like GW - classes have a large pool of skills/abilities to choose from, but can only take a limited number out onto the field (of battle).

This model also has it's proponents and detractors - some folks just don't want to spend alot of time juggling/experimenting with power combinations, in fact, I'd say the 'mainstream' probably doesn't have a great deal of patience for this type of activity.

[tmp]

What I think he's talking about is something like GW - classes have a large pool of skills/abilities to choose from, but can only take a limited number out onto the field (of battle).

This model also has it's proponents and detractors - some folks just don't want to spend alot of time juggling/experimenting with power combinations, in fact, I'd say the 'mainstream' probably doesn't have a great deal of patience for this type of activity.

The main complaint about GW model is iirc, when there's fuckton of different abilities to equip it rapidly reaches point where you lose any ability to counter the enemy's moves because you can't tell anymore what the abilty they just activated actually does.

With FPS games it's relatively simple, everyone has gun of some sort and shoots. With fighting games it's also simplified to generic abilities (blocks, throws, punches) with different animations for extra flavour.. and even with these simplifications some FPS/fighting game "classes" have easier time beating others. MMO use much wider range of abilities so giving everyone counter to everything without actually making everyone just like everyone else ... good luck with that.

[Bungee]

Give evey class the skills needed to defeat every class and let the players choose which ones to go into battle with.

Like, give the Player dozens of Tactics and Morale Abilities while only giving him enough space to have a few of them active anytime?
Sounds familiar, somehow.

[Lum]

I love it when unreleased games talk about expansion content.  It gives me great hope for their state at release.

You can actually leave the green off of that. Pushing large features to an expansion far in advance may actually mean the developer has a clue about scheduling their resources instead of promising everything and the kitchen sink on day 1.