WAR - another newsletter - more RvR, less sport PvP

[Ratman_tf]

Also, there's still a ton of +pvp servers in WoW because all of the hardcore pve folks went there, for some reason I don't know. 

It's AFAIK another barrier to entry. Just mentioning PvP to some players shoos them away, and that's one less person who turns out to be dead weight halfway through a raid...

*Edit* Put me down for 250k. I bet it does well, but not epically.

[Aez]

[...] Risen is hardcore in a way that makes old school FoH look like casuals.

I tough the next step after old school FoH was :

[eldaec]

I'll go one further given their RPG division announcement, rash of store closings and four straight years of tanking stocks: if WoW flops or is too niche GW will sell itself to the highest bidder or close within four years of launch.

GW doesn't need video game money to stay afloat. They're half way through a cost reduction program that is costing them £4million a year but will save them a lot more down the road and they have a new CEO which is why their stock is low.

New CEOs don't traditionally depress share prices, and nobody ever cost reduced their way to reversing a 30% drop in sales over 3 years.

GW won't be saved or doomed by WAR (and their projections don't appear to count on any contribution from WAR), but it's going to have to think of something.

[Aez]

I'll go one further given their RPG division announcement, rash of store closings and four straight years of tanking stocks: if WoW flops or is too niche GW will sell itself to the highest bidder or close within four years of launch.

GW doesn't need video game money to stay afloat. They're half way through a cost reduction program that is costing them £4million a year but will save them a lot more down the road and they have a new CEO which is why their stock is low.

New CEOs don't traditionally depress share prices, and nobody ever cost reduced their way to reversing a 30% drop in sales over 3 years.

GW won't be saved or doomed by WAR (and their projections don't appear to count on any contribution from WAR), but it's going to have to think of something.

I still think GW should make a MTGO equivalent for their franchises.  It's where the money hat is, I can't believe they don't want to wear it.

[Nija]

People always talk about WOW players like they are Warcraft fans.

Warcraft fans are RTS fans. My buddies who played War2 on Kali .. 11 years ago are still playing RTS games. They are playing Supreme Commander, DotA, and TA:Spring. They aren't playing WOW.

Warhammer fans, the dorks that they are.. Hell I don't actually KNOW any Warhammer fans. Who knows what they'll do. I'll assume that they play good strategy games. None of which have the Warhammer name on them. They probably play Civ and Warlords.

[Modern Angel]

They did make both Warhammer and 40K CCGs. Dunno if they're still afloat or not but Magic they weren't.

EDIT: Yeah, they both apparently folded. Not sure when though

[Abelian75]

Amusingly, and almost certainly coincidentally, the only Warhammer fan I ever really knew was also a pretty huge DAOC fan.

[Venkman]

Oh yea, definitely file my opinion under "lesser of two evils". I'll gladly accept ads in something like The Agency (or TF2 or CoD4) or future sci-fi stuff (TR, AO) as it makes sense in the context of the virtual world. Keep you your ads out of my fantasy though.

Is that related to immersion? Would you be okay with a fantasy/archaic setting having ads if they were thematically appropriate - for instance having a town barker calling them?

Mostly it's how the topic doesn't in any way corrolate with the world. What product and/or service could a town barker call out that wouldn't feel absolutely out of place in a fantasy-theme full-screen MMO.

Ads that bracket a game (loading screens, login/out screens), I don't have much an issue with that.

Meanwhile, in contemporary or future setting games, it works. Contemporary for obvious reasons and future because we all assume dystopian (where ads are still there just messy, ala Hellgate) or intergalactic megaconglomerate advertising anyway.

There is a HUGE market for realm pvp.

This. People might invoke SB or DAoC as examples of a not huge market. But ya gotta remember that EQ1 grew mostly on PvE. That continued in the West (Lineage didn't cut it here) for a long time. And even WoW largely launched as PvE with PvP tacked on. They just had the confidence to have 50% of their servers be dedicated PvP.

They basically created the need for a lot of players, and fed it with honor points, battlegrounds, etc. In doing so, they also created a new competitive advantage for someone else.

The WAR IP is a draw, but I'm not actually sure that's going to be the primary basis of their success.

[UnSub]

Just to follow on from Darniaq - my belief about WoW's PvP is that a lot of players got through the PvE to the end-game and went "Now what?". And then they picked up PvP and liked it, but it wasn't what brought them to the game. PvP is still a niche and more likely a secondary concern for most players.

Will those players go to WAR? Perhaps, eventually, if they are willing to climb up the PvE pole again and learn a whole new game in order to be able to PvP effectively. Others will stay put in WoW and wait to hear the reviews. Plus WOTLK is likely to suck some players back to WoW from WAR. It'll be interesting to see what happens, but neither WAR nor AoC will be the WoW-killer this year.

Based on my experience of Warhammer players (the wargame), I think they'll check how the rules lay out in WAR, pick it to pieces about how it isn't really Warhammer and generally ignore it in favour of their miniatures. Which is what happened with DDO: Stormreach (in part, at least).

As for WAR charging more for the monthly fee than the industry standard - if PvP really are a dedicated niche group and the WAR PvP / RvR is really that good, then it'll work as a pricing strategy. Otherwise, yeah, problems.

[sidereal]

PvP is still a niche and more likely a secondary concern for most players.

I can't be the first person to point this out, but I haven't read it yet so I'll just be redundant.  The WAR population will probably come from three sources:  1) WoW players who want to play a WoW PvE game, but want the endgame to be RvR instead of raiding; 2) Disgrunted ex-Shadowbane ex-DAoC players who think RvR never got a fair shake and want it to be the primary game, not just the end game; and 3) tabletop Warhammer players who have no fucking idea what PvE is and simply assume that all gaming is against some other grognard.  These people will not get along, and balancing among them will be EA Mythic's neverending onerous task.

[Righ]

True but it also smacks of a sense of desperation. Their stock has tanked for nearly four years now with no end in sight. Closing up one guy and some freelancers under the misguided notion that all of the folks who played the pen and paper game are going to flock to Warhammer or 40K to drop 300 bucks an army is absolute lunacy. This is especially true given the corporate mantra of 'no advertising, good word of mouth'.

What? I don't think that's what they are thinking of or banking on. The company has adapted and changed tack many times over the last 30 years while most of their contemporaries have failed. I doubt that they make the changes expecting to carry all the customers from one from of product to another.

[Ratman_tf]

People always talk about WOW players like they are Warcraft fans.

Warcraft fans are RTS fans. My buddies who played War2 on Kali .. 11 years ago are still playing RTS games. They are playing Supreme Commander, DotA, and TA:Spring. They aren't playing WOW.

They're Blizzard fans. All the wonderful mouthbreathers from battle.net. Mostly (I imagine) Diablo/D2 vets.

[Modern Angel]

True but it also smacks of a sense of desperation. Their stock has tanked for nearly four years now with no end in sight. Closing up one guy and some freelancers under the misguided notion that all of the folks who played the pen and paper game are going to flock to Warhammer or 40K to drop 300 bucks an army is absolute lunacy. This is especially true given the corporate mantra of 'no advertising, good word of mouth'.

What? I don't think that's what they are thinking of or banking on. The company has adapted and changed tack many times over the last 30 years while most of their contemporaries have failed. I doubt that they make the changes expecting to carry all the customers from one from of product to another.

That was true but is not true anymore. Their market share has shrunk and when I say their stock has tanked I mean it is in the toilet, rock bottom, not paying dividends toilet. Check out GW stories in the Financial Times and check the stock listing. They're a sick, sick company.

[Dash]

They're Blizzard fans. All the wonderful mouthbreathers from battle.net.

Yah.  Although it's well beyond that at this point from word of mouth.  So essentially the mouthbreathers and all their buddies heh.  Well and plenty of normal players as well to be fair.

[IainC]

People always talk about WOW players like they are Warcraft fans.

Warcraft fans are RTS fans. My buddies who played War2 on Kali .. 11 years ago are still playing RTS games. They are playing Supreme Commander, DotA, and TA:Spring. They aren't playing WOW.

They're Blizzard fans. All the wonderful mouthbreathers from battle.net. Mostly (I imagine) Diablo/D2 vets.

Early adopters are impressed by studio resumés, design shinies and so forth. Latecomers to the party go where their friends are. I'd be willing to bet that a sizable chunk of WoW's players don't even know the game is based on an RTS series.

I'm finding it hard to imagine all the WoW playing soccer moms and middle-aged professionals that have adopted WoW as their particular brand of social crack, spamming 'Yuo gifv SoJ or I PK u kk?'

[Triforcer]

Just to follow on from Darniaq - my belief about WoW's PvP is that a lot of players got through the PvE to the end-game and went "Now what?". And then they picked up PvP and liked it, but it wasn't what brought them to the game. PvP is still a niche and more likely a secondary concern for most players.

See, this just isn't how it works.  Let me explain WoW pvp servers in a bit more detail:

1)  It is not FFA.  Unless you duel or Arena, you can never fight your own realm (Alliance/Horde).

2)  BGs did not exist until WoW was close to a year old.  Arenas didn't come into existence until some point after that.

3)  PvP servers comprise half of the server population (or pretty close to it, not sure on the exactly number). 

4)  On PvP servers, the capital cities and low level zones (generally, the type of zones you could level to 20-25ish in, like the Barrens for example) are one-way PvP flagged.  That means, if an enemy wanders in, they can only attack a native if the native attacks them first.

5)  ALL OTHER world zones are perma-pvp flagged both ways, with NO level restrictions.  That means I, as a level 70, could go to Thousand Needles for example and gank level 30s all day.


So, to recap, WoW pvp servers (half the game) flourished for a year before BGs in an atmosphere where 80% of the zones allowed for random 40-levels differential gankage.  DAoC didn't go this far (PvP only in the common frontier).  COH/V didn't go this far.  EQ1/2 didn't go this far.  Not counting Shadowbane, WoW is the most hardcore PvP gank MMO since UO, and millions play on the gank servers.  That's why I find this PvE propaganda about "all WoW pvpz is arena, lol WoW proves nothing about PvP" so laughable. 

[Draegan]

Didn't WAR come out and say your character's gear never changes look depending what you've equiped and the only change is trophies that you can glue on any part of your body.  So end game guys all look the same except some little trinkets?

[tmp]

So, to recap, WoW pvp servers (half the game) flourished for a year before BGs in an atmosphere where 80% of the zones allowed for random 40-levels differential gankage.  DAoC didn't go this far (PvP only in the common frontier).  COH/V didn't go this far.  EQ1/2 didn't go this far.  Not counting Shadowbane, WoW is the most hardcore PvP gank MMO since UO, and millions play on the gank servers.  That's why I find this PvE propaganda about "all WoW pvpz is arena, lol WoW proves nothing about PvP" so laughable. 

Yes but the question still remains how much of that 'unrestrained ganking' actually took place. (plus how much of it happens now) And if the deployment of BGs and changes to world PvP weren't in fact caused by people finding out they don't enjoy getting ganked by people 30 levels above them, and Blizzard moving in to maintain their subscribers.

in simpler words: if PvP servers "flourished", why the drastic change to something that supposedly worked so well?

[IainC]

Didn't WAR come out and say your character's gear never changes look depending what you've equiped and the only change is trophies that you can glue on any part of your body.  So end game guys all look the same except some little trinkets?

No.

[Dash]

Didn't WAR come out and say your character's gear never changes look depending what you've equiped and the only change is trophies that you can glue on any part of your body.  So end game guys all look the same except some little trinkets?

No.

Wow good cause that would suck.  At a minimum I thought they'd have armor dye and different looking gear, plus the trinket things.

[IainC]

Check out the podcasts and the development diaries for insights into the design choices that are being made for WAR.

The newsletter archives are also full of solid info about the game's direction.

[Triforcer]

Yes but the question still remains how much of that 'unrestrained ganking' actually took place. (plus how much of it happens now) And if the deployment of BGs and changes to world PvP weren't in fact caused by people finding out they don't enjoy getting ganked by people 30 levels above them, and Blizzard moving in to maintain their subscribers.

in simpler words: if PvP servers "flourished", why the drastic change to something that supposedly worked so well?

Er, what drastic change?  To get to all the BGs and Arenas, you had to level to top level.  That involved dozens or hundreds of instances of ganking or getting ganked.  If what you are saying is true, why did people stick with the "world pvp" servers at all?  They could have all the arenas and BGs they wanted on a PvE server, in that respect the servers are no different.  

But, yet, somehow, people have stuck with servers where leveling their mains and alts means dozens or hundreds more deaths leveling up.  

[Soukyan]

Well, at least one person will play Warhammer Online for the RvR. Me. That is if they don't fuck up the rest of the game. RvR is what drew me to play DAoC. I would say that 500k subscriptions is doable, with a chunk of those coming from current and former DAoC subscribers, and the rest trickling in from other MMOGs. WoW players might come, but most will drift back to WoW simply because people don't handle change well.

[Draegan]

Check out the podcasts and the development diaries for insights into the design choices that are being made for WAR.

The newsletter archives are also full of solid info about the game's direction.

So every piece of gear in the game has different art associated with it and changes your character's look at every level?

[cevik]

Well, at least one person will play Warhammer Online for the RvR. Me. That is if they don't fuck up the rest of the game. RvR is what drew me to play DAoC. I would say that 500k subscriptions is doable, with a chunk of those coming from current and former DAoC subscribers, and the rest trickling in from other MMOGs. WoW players might come, but most will drift back to WoW simply because people don't handle change well.

Currently the only reason I'm playing any mmogs at all is to pass time until Warhammer comes out, and I have zero interest in anything but RvR in the game.. I don't care about the IP, I don't care about the crappy pve.. I like PvP..

Mind you I'm not in beta, so my hopes will likely be dashed when I see the game.. but anyways..

[Dash]

I think they've done a great job with the podcasts.   I hope to see a lot more in game vids though put out by Mythic in the coming months. 

[tmp]

[Er, what drastic change?

Was there Battlegrounds etc at launch? Or were they added later, with incentives for world PvP tuned down to make people go to fully consentual PvP places?

If what you are saying is true, why did people stick with the "world pvp" servers at all?  They could have all the arenas and BGs they wanted on a PvE server, in that respect the servers are no different.  

But, yet, somehow, people have stuck with servers where leveling their mains and alts means dozens or hundreds more deaths leveling up.

That's the thing; what am saying is, it's possible people didn't initially stick with the "world pvp" servers in large enough numbers to maintain that model unchanged. We dont have any data on churn rate to verify it one way or the other, unfortunately. But it's possible it created extra incentive for deployment of consentual PvP spots. And once these were added, you could actually question the point of distinction between "PvP" and "not PvP" servers for WoW because like you say, players can get the exact same "PvP" experience on PvE server. Hence my question if that "hardcore ganking" you talk about actually still happens on these "PvP" WoW servers, or is the designation a thing of the past that no one really gives a flip about anymore.

[Simond]

I give myself 90-95% wiggle room!  Have you seen the WAR demo videos? There is massive intrest in Warhammer.

A bunch of excited mini painting dorks* <> 10 million subscribers.

*Let me show you my Tau. Let me show you them...

WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS WARHAMS

And I really don't get the free pass Warhammer is getting - I just don't see how a game which is going to cost more ever montth than WoW, failed it's beta and had to be redesigned, and now has "reskinned DAoC* as it's end game points towards success.

*A game that, lest we forget, had less subscribers at its peak than Verant-era Everquest and a worse PvE game to boot.

[Righ]

How did it fail its beta? Its still in beta, and as far as I can tell they are doing a better job of managing the beta process than almost every other MMO game to date. Perhaps some people are giving WAR a 'free pass' by your standards, but I suspect that most people here are simply more inclined to have greater expectations because the team involved with the game have done a better job than most in the past.

[Triforcer]

Word apparently leaked about the CE before the arrival of this month's newsletter:

http://www.spelbutiken.se/php-bin/produkt.php?produkt=pc1667

EDIT: According to online currency converters, 999 Swedish Kroner equals U.S. $157 

[Zetor]

Talks about raising the monthly fee already? eh? Now I really want to play the beta to see what inspired this sudden rush of confidence, kek.

Yes but the question still remains how much of that 'unrestrained ganking' actually took place. (plus how much of it happens now) And if the deployment of BGs and changes to world PvP weren't in fact caused by people finding out they don't enjoy getting ganked by people 30 levels above them, and Blizzard moving in to maintain their subscribers.

in simpler words: if PvP servers "flourished", why the drastic change to something that supposedly worked so well?

Er, what drastic change?  To get to all the BGs and Arenas, you had to level to top level.  That involved dozens or hundreds of instances of ganking or getting ganked.  If what you are saying is true, why did people stick with the "world pvp" servers at all?  They could have all the arenas and BGs they wanted on a PvE server, in that respect the servers are no different.  

But, yet, somehow, people have stuck with servers where leveling their mains and alts means dozens or hundreds more deaths leveling up.  

I've played on a pvp server since launch, and world pvp has been dead since BGs were added, and REALLY dead since everyone finished leveling to 70 in BC. Even the most hardcore gankers spend most of their pvp time in BGs and arenas (pve servers have those too), only occasionally going to peekay some noobs in lowbie areas. According to my guildies and my alts, it's not different at all from pve servers. Heck, most of the time even-level chars from opposite factions will grind / quest beside each other peacefully (sometimes even HELPING the other out) simply because ganking usually results in a huge waste of leveling/questing time for both sides as they bring in 70s. Sometimes a pvp guild will do an organized assault on an enemy city, succeed/fail at killing the city boss and spend hours doing corpse runs.

WOW is a pve game, even though I enjoy playing anti-pk occasionally (most people who DO gank in lowbie towns are... pretty horrible :P). Now most of my guildies wish we rolled on a pve server way-back-when; and we were an (anti)PK guild in UO...


-- Z.

[Soukyan]

Actually, the monthly fee being higher than $15 was conjecture on my part earlier in this thread when we were discussing the possibilities of which MMOGs might raise the bar again. I thought that WAR would be a good candidate to do so because of the marketing behind it and because Mythic had led the way with subscription rate hikes with DAoC in the past. So unless someone has read/heard otherwise, I have no evidence that WAR will cost more than $15 per month at this juncture.

[edit] Don't know how I missed that Mark Jacobs quote, so correction, apparently they have considered it. Ah well, 17 bucks per month will still fly with people. The same thing will happen that always does. People will bitch while handing over their cash anyhow. It's just the way of the consumer and businesses tolerate it as a fact of doing business. Within reason, of course.

@cevik: I'm with you. I don't have beta access to the game and think I may be hugely disappointed in the game, not because of the IP, but because it's liable to have some huge PvE barrier to RvR entry which would make me sad and make me pine for the old days of DAoC (which was a fantastic grind, but I got to 50 early and quick with a guild of friends. That made all the difference in the RvR experience. Then ToA happened... *sigh* [/edit]

[Dash]

And I really don't get the free pass Warhammer is getting - I just don't see how a game which is going to cost more ever montth than WoW, failed it's beta and had to be redesigned, and now has "reskinned DAoC* as it's end game points towards success.

*A game that, lest we forget, had less subscribers at its peak than Verant-era Everquest and a worse PvE game to boot.

Verant era EQ was the big MMO of it's time.  Not sure what you're getting at there, and DAoC was a good game.  As for beta, I say good for them for doing what people always bitch about companies not doing.  Listen and change if things suck.  Delay rather than ship out unfinished crap.

DAoC WoW hybrid sounds good to me, we'll see if they can pull it off. 

[Simond]

Word apparently leaked about the CE before the arrival of this month's newsletter:

http://www.spelbutiken.se/php-bin/produkt.php?produkt=pc1667

EDIT: According to online currency converters, 999 Swedish Kroner equals U.S. $157 

For the at-work massive -

Collector’s Edition content:
In-Game:
12 exclusive quest (two for each army)12 exclusive quest rewards (one for each quest)
12 exclusive character heads
Special player title
30 days of free game play
In-Box
Game on 2 DVD
Manual
Exclusive Mousepad
WAR Graphic Novel
Art Book/Atlas
Exclusive Warhammer Miniature
War is everywhere in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning (WAR), the new MMORPG from the creators of Dark Age of Camelot. Based on Games Workshop's popular Warhammer fantasy war game, WAR features next generation Realm vs. Realm (RvR) game play that will immerse players in a world of perpetual conflict.

Upon entering WAR, players must determine their allegiance and join an Army. Those inclined towards the side of good may fight for the Armies of Order as an obstinate Dwarf, noble High Elf, or loyal human soldier of the Empire. Those inclined towards darker deeds may side with the sinister Armies of Destruction as a savage Greenskin (Orc or Goblin), corrupt Dark Elf, or marauding human worshipper of Chaos.

RvR combat takes place on three fronts where ancient foes wage an unending war – Dwarfs vs. Greenskins, High Elf vs. Dark Elf, and Empire vs. Chaos. Players begin the game fighting their ancestral enemy, but are free to journey to other fronts to help their allies in their ongoing struggles.

The ultimate goal in RvR combat is the sacking of an enemy's capital city. To do this, an army must invade and take control of the opposition's homeland. Deciding battles take place on objective-based battlefields and in instanced scenarios - point-balanced battles that make use of NPC mercenaries known as Dogs of War.

For the first time, WAR's RvR system integrates both Player vs. Player (PvP) combat and Player vs. Environment (PvE) quests on the same map. Every aspect of the game, including PvE missions, is geared towards the greater war in some important way. However, players are not required to participate in PvP combat, and may aid in the RvR war effort and enjoy the game in its entirety via PvE content.

Drawing from a quarter century of highly detailed source material, Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning will bring Games Workshop's fantasy world to life in a way that will allow players to create characters destined for great deeds and glory on the field of battle.
Based on Games Workshop's popular Warhammer fantasy world. Dominated by force of arms and magic, this world provides a rich setting for hundreds of thousands of players to experience the epic nature of war and the glory of battle.
Join one of six Armies and fight for the Armies of Order (Dwarf, High Elf and Empire) or the Armies of Destruction (Greenskin, Dark Elf, or Chaos). Wage war across three unique battlefronts.
Next generation Realm vs. Realm game system integrating both PvP combat and PvE quests on the same map in support of the greater war.
Engage in four levels of RvR combat:
Skirmishes: Incidental PvP combat
Battlefields: Objective-based battles in the game world
Scenarios: Instanced, point-based battles balanced with NPC Dogs of War
Campaigns: The invasion of enemy lands culminating in the assault on their capital city
Undertake a wide variety of PvE quest types related to an army's war efforts, including:
Public quests that benefit from the participation of the entire army
Conflict quests that pit players against an enemy with opposing goals
Branching quests that let you choose the outcome of the quest and your reward
Xmas quests that reward exploration with high value loot

A robust combat system introduces Player Tactics (earned powers you equip prior to battle) and Morale Skills (combat options that increase in power when the momentum of battle is in your favor).
Player models that change to reflect the relative power of a character (i.e., Orcs grow in size and Dwarfs' beards get longer). Customizable armor and a visual guild system allow a player to make their character truly unique.
Embark on an epic quest to complete the Tome of Knowledge and unlock Warhammer lore, detailed monster information, and major story plotlines.
Online play requires a subscription and Internet connection.

Hmm. Let's look at their PvP endgame:

Engage in four levels of RvR combat:
Skirmishes: Incidental PvP combat
Battlefields: Objective-based battles in the game world
Scenarios: Instanced, point-based battles balanced with NPC Dogs of War
Campaigns: The invasion of enemy lands culminating in the assault on their capital city

So...Tarren Mill/STV ganking, Halaa/Silithis/etc world-pvp stuff, Alterac Valley et al, and invading Org/Stormwind/wherever. Yep, I can certainly see why that's worth a higher monthly fee than WoW. 

[Ratman_tf]

Exclusive Mousepad

Fuck. I'm sold!