Blizzards next MMO is........

[tkinnun0]

Socketing in WoW was a totally wasted opportunity.

Totally wasted opportunity to break the game and subsequently nerf everyone, sure.

Really, would it be better if you needed to do a spreadsheet to figure out which are the best gems to socket for your situation?

[Ironwood]

What ?

[tkinnun0]

I presumed your complaint was that it was currently too obvious for all players what gems to socket where. And thus, a better socketing system should have had more different gems and more powerful gems and with more unobvious synergies.

If that's not the case I apologize and ask what was your complaint?

[Llava]

I don't care what it is, but I sure hope it has a Horadric Cube.  That is one of the coolest things ever.  I was so hoping that jewelcrafting in WoW was going to involve a Horadric Cube, and so disappointed that it doesn't.

I believe they call them "Alchemists" in WoW.

[Venkman]

I presumed your complaint was that it was currently too obvious for all players what gems to socket where. And thus, a better socketing system should have had more different gems and more powerful gems and with more unobvious synergies.

It's actually not that obvious all the time. And further, sometimes getting the gems you want for your class|spec|playstyle is more important than getting that socket bonus. Finally, too, there's the Meta gem thing which often requires careful consideration about where else to put stuff.

It's no Horadric Cube, but it's not turnkey either.

[Xanthippe]

I don't care what it is, but I sure hope it has a Horadric Cube.  That is one of the coolest things ever.  I was so hoping that jewelcrafting in WoW was going to involve a Horadric Cube, and so disappointed that it doesn't.

I believe they call them "Alchemists" in WoW.

Alchemists don't do anything near what you can do with a horadric cube either.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

[Ironwood]

I presumed your complaint was that it was currently too obvious for all players what gems to socket where. And thus, a better socketing system should have had more different gems and more powerful gems and with more unobvious synergies.

If that's not the case I apologize and ask what was your complaint?

1 - It's far too obvious.  Simplistic in the most brutal and unimaginative sense.
2 - The Meta Gem game is similarly Awful.
3 - The socket Bonuses REEEEEEEEEEEK.  I have an OCD disorder about them which means I HAVE TO HAVE THEM even though they are quite clearly complete Crap.  No +12 STA for me, even though it MAKES MORE SENSE TO DO SO.
4 - Diablo Comparatives such as Runewords, Special Gems and mighty combinations simply do not exist.
5 - Epic Gems are, for the most part, Complete Crap.  Further, there's no level between blue and rare that may be a 'geniune find'.
6 - Did I mention Runewords ?  Runewords in Diablo II were seven slices of Awesome even, and here's the kicker, EVEN if the bonus wasn't all that good.  Your weapon/armor was fucking CALLED something...
7 - Gems combining to make better Gems, ala Horadric Cube.  Giving that talent to JC would have made 17 types of awesome.

8 - And Finally, your post is a dumbed down version of my complaint, yes.  What you don't make clear is the connect between your post above and how this would "break the game and subsequently nerf everyone".  I don't get that at all.

Also, Spreadsheets ?  If you honestly needed a frigging spreadsheet for Diablo II, I worry for your attention span.

Hope that's all clear and I await the explanation to number 8.  With Great Humility and Keeness.

:
 

[Typhon]

Holy Crap! He can type more then a single sentence at a time!  I bet he's napping now.

[Ironwood]

You'll get old one day too.  Unless you keep giving lip to the wrong person.

[El Gallo]

I will, yet again, be rooting for World of Diablo.  WoSC makes more sense though.  It could scoop up the Korean market, the one place WoW isn't dominating* and pick up some Europe/NA subs to compliment WoW.


*except for Habbo Hotel, of course, which we all know is the only game that matters.

[Llava]

I don't care what it is, but I sure hope it has a Horadric Cube.  That is one of the coolest things ever.  I was so hoping that jewelcrafting in WoW was going to involve a Horadric Cube, and so disappointed that it doesn't.

I believe they call them "Alchemists" in WoW.

Alchemists don't do anything near what you can do with a horadric cube either.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you.

As an alchemist, you take a number of smaller, less useful gems, a couple other ingredients, and turn them into a much more useful gem.

Granted, there's a cooldown and that's about as far as the comparison goes, but transmutes are the best I can do for ya.

[WayAbvPar]

You'll get old one day too.  Unless you keep giving lip to the wrong person.

Coffee. In my nose.

[tkinnun0]

Ah yes, Diablo. I remember having gems and socketed items, but I don't remember the two ever meeting. It was always "I have this crap item and these crap gems, why should I combine them when I can wait for better loot items and combine the gems into better ones". Oh, that was joyful. <-- green

8 - And Finally, your post is a dumbed down version of my complaint, yes.  What you don't make clear is the connect between your post above and how this would "break the game and subsequently nerf everyone".  I don't get that at all.

Let's see, the way a socketing system ties into item budgets is that a fully socketed item has a, say, 100 points, similar to non-socketed items of the same level. Of those 100 points, something like 70-80 come from the item and 20-30 from gem combinations and socket bonuses. Those numbers are from my arse, btw. Now, to make that more meaningful is to move points from the item to gems. To make it more deep is to make gem A and gem B be worth 10 points separated but 30 points when used together.

Pretty innocuous. Best part is you can just keep adding crap items with sockets and new gems with new bonuses, and no player can keep up thanks to the combinatorial explosion. You'll know you've gone too far when some hunter item with just the right gems is a better tanking breastplate than raid gear, but then it's too late because every tank is wearing one. And if you don't nerf, you'll end with something like AO's item system. There's no sane dev who could have designed that.

WoW's socket system is a) designed and b) accessible.

a) means that as an achiever, I don't need a spreadsheet (someone else's, in my case) to believe that no unintended über items lurk at the end of some weird combination.
b) means that I don't need to read a guide; how my class should socket can be explained in guild chat.

Both are good.

[Dash]

Starcraft Universe.  Blizzard Station Pass.  Option to invade WoW servers in Carriers and slaughter elves.

[Ratman_tf]

Starcraft Universe.  Blizzard Station Pass.  Option to invade WoW servers in Carriers and slaughter elves.

That would be so awesome, it would never happen. The awesome would blow up all the servers. 

[Ironwood]

Ah yes, Diablo. I remember having gems and socketed items, but I don't remember the two ever meeting. It was always "I have this crap item and these crap gems, why should I combine them when I can wait for better loot items and combine the gems into better ones". Oh, that was joyful. <-- green

8 - And Finally, your post is a dumbed down version of my complaint, yes.  What you don't make clear is the connect between your post above and how this would "break the game and subsequently nerf everyone".  I don't get that at all.

Let's see, the way a socketing system ties into item budgets is that a fully socketed item has a, say, 100 points, similar to non-socketed items of the same level. Of those 100 points, something like 70-80 come from the item and 20-30 from gem combinations and socket bonuses. Those numbers are from my arse, btw. Now, to make that more meaningful is to move points from the item to gems. To make it more deep is to make gem A and gem B be worth 10 points separated but 30 points when used together.

Pretty innocuous. Best part is you can just keep adding crap items with sockets and new gems with new bonuses, and no player can keep up thanks to the combinatorial explosion. You'll know you've gone too far when some hunter item with just the right gems is a better tanking breastplate than raid gear, but then it's too late because every tank is wearing one. And if you don't nerf, you'll end with something like AO's item system. There's no sane dev who could have designed that.

WoW's socket system is a) designed and b) accessible.

a) means that as an achiever, I don't need a spreadsheet (someone else's, in my case) to believe that no unintended über items lurk at the end of some weird combination.
b) means that I don't need to read a guide; how my class should socket can be explained in guild chat.

Both are good.

K.


Still think you're wrong, but at least we both know how we're both wrong.

[Typhon]

You'll get old one day too.  Unless you keep giving lip to the wrong person.

 

[K9]

Starcraft Universe.  Blizzard Station Pass.  Option to invade WoW servers in Carriers and slaughter elves.

Like the Dranei?

[Tannhauser]

Yeah, pay a ton of gold for a +12 INT gem.  No thanks.  Sockets are a 'why bother' item to me.  Every item that has them that I've seen is ass anyway. 

[lamaros]

From a design and marketing point is cannot be anything else except Starcraft, surely.

And don't we have a WoW forum for jewel blather?

[Tarami]

Starcraft is, yes, rather obvious for the marketability of the game. I just so wish that's not true and that they created a new, proper MMO franchise that isn't old tired RTS lore hammered into an MMO mold. Warcraft got decent lore, WoW doesn't. It's shit, in fact. Lore, setting and immersion should be factors even in a ding-bling-shinies game. WoW is just a techni-colour playpen. But then again, I'm an RPer. 


And on the derailing discussion on gems;

The whole issue with socket items in WoW is that you get a crippled item that's only better than the intended item if you spend huge effort on getting the right gems. In many cases, it's obvious that they've made a complete item then stripped away a bunch of stats to make budget space for slots. The point of Diablo's gems and runewords was that you could get amazing items or entirely new effects, not just socketless item + 10%. What are you going to do, socket +spell hit rating on your tanking chest? It will improve your Taunt!

Could have had a point back in the 60-days, when itemization was utter crap. It's better now so I'll just have my items complete, thank you, even if it means that I might have to live with 10% less stats on three of my items.

[Simond]

Warcraft got decent lore, WoW doesn't. It's shit, in fact.

Please explain how a game which expands upon the lore of the previous WC games can have worse lore than them.

Points will be deducted if you mention "Flying Naaru Castles" as lorebreaking without clarifying why "Flying Scourge Castles" are not. Similarly "Naaru transdimension travel" & "Dark Portal"

Gems!

WoW's gems are closer to EQ's augments than Diablo's gems/runes/etc. This is because WoW is closer to EQ's dikuness than Diablo's glorified-roguelikeness. Fairly simple logic, I would have thought.

[Ironwood]

Possibly.  Who's to say that I wouldn't use the word 'Wank' if I'd ever seen the EQ augments ?

It's a thorny philosophical question...

[Simond]

A fair point.

[Merusk]

What are you going to do, socket +spell hit rating on your tanking chest? It will improve your Taunt!

Funny you should mention that. Meet Chaaz.  Chaaz thinks he's an awesome tank.  That's his 'tanking set'.   No, I'm not kidding.

[Ironwood]

I can't see a single problem with that.


I suspect your link is not what you're expecting.

[Tarami]

Please explain how a game which expands upon the lore of the previous WC games can have worse lore than them.

Naturally. But first I'd like to say that with "lore" I'm referring to what could be called "setting potential" or "background potential". They can't really change was has already been done, but they can change how it's implemented between games. Warcraft the strategy games had set timespans and most of all, set goals. They had lore constructed to contain the things that escalated in those games. WoW has taken that lore then shoehorned single man heroism into it in a relentless manner that completely contradicts the former implementations of the lore. Outlands has gone from a floating, dystropic place in the nether to a fairy land built to satisfy a need for a ding and a bling. The games may share the original framework of lore, but the values of the original lore are long gone. Rationalisation of relevant lore? Sure. Is it the same lore? No.

It's simply mucking about with the integrity of the background. Letting us gank the old arch-nemesises at a ludacris pace is just one thing and not the thing that bothers me the most, it's that nothing remains that's "unexplored" and not filled with player-friendly NPCs that'll gladly hand out some bling for another ten ogre beads. WoW has reduced the air of danger of the original lore to smouldering ashes in its eagerness to give cheap thrills and/or to achieve streamlining. Nothing says they can't add separate lore that scales well with the game pace, instead of burning their iconic traits at a stake.

Needing leeway for game mechanics is fully understandable, so I will never complain about killing a zillion orcs or anything similarly minor. That's just abstraction and rationalisation in favour of the game, while I can't see the abuse of the original lore as something that's needed for a functional and compelling game. It's not like anyone truly cares what the new zones are as long as they are cool-looking and offer epics, anyways, is it?

And yes, I do realise it's all about marketing and expectations. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I secretly hope they'll make a world that's expanding in this new MMO, rather than consuming itself.

---

And sorry Merusk, I too fail to see the atrociousness of the linked profile. It has updated since you posted, perhaps?

[Draegan]

I hate the word potential.

[Fordel]

I can't see a single problem with that.


I suspect your link is not what you're expecting.

Chaaz needs less avoidance and more stamina, armor and block value. His healers must hate him.

All the melee DPS stacking is also 'wtf' worthy. 

[Tarami]

Chaaz needs less avoidance and more stamina, armor and block value. His healers must hate him.

All the melee DPS stacking is also 'wtf' worthy. 

Perhaps, but as it originated from a comment suggesting that tanks would want spell hit rating, I would have expected something rather more drastic than merely being suboptimal. Can't speak for Ironwood, but my guess would be that so did he.

[Slayerik]

What are you going to do, socket +spell hit rating on your tanking chest? It will improve your Taunt!

Funny you should mention that. Meet Chaaz.  Chaaz thinks he's an awesome tank.  That's his 'tanking set'.   No, I'm not kidding.

This is the gear people get made fun of about nowadays? Ouch. Glad I quit a long time ago. Sure, its a little agility and dodge heavy....but at least he's prot spec :)

[Simond]

Please explain how a game which expands upon the lore of the previous WC games can have worse lore than them.

Naturally. But first I'd like to say that with "lore" I'm referring to what could be called "setting potential" or "background potential". They can't really change was has already been done, but they can change how it's implemented between games. Warcraft the strategy games had set timespans and most of all, set goals. They had lore constructed to contain the things that escalated in those games. WoW has taken that lore then shoehorned single man heroism into it in a relentless manner that completely contradicts the former implementations of the lore. Outlands has gone from a floating, dystropic place in the nether to a fairy land built to satisfy a need for a ding and a bling. The games may share the original framework of lore, but the values of the original lore are long gone. Rationalisation of relevant lore? Sure. Is it the same lore? No.

It's simply mucking about with the integrity of the background. Letting us gank the old arch-nemesises at a ludacris pace is just one thing and not the thing that bothers me the most, it's that nothing remains that's "unexplored" and not filled with player-friendly NPCs that'll gladly hand out some bling for another ten ogre beads. WoW has reduced the air of danger of the original lore to smouldering ashes in its eagerness to give cheap thrills and/or to achieve streamlining. Nothing says they can't add separate lore that scales well with the game pace, instead of burning their iconic traits at a stake.

Needing leeway for game mechanics is fully understandable, so I will never complain about killing a zillion orcs or anything similarly minor. That's just abstraction and rationalisation in favour of the game, while I can't see the abuse of the original lore as something that's needed for a functional and compelling game. It's not like anyone truly cares what the new zones are as long as they are cool-looking and offer epics, anyways, is it?

And yes, I do realise it's all about marketing and expectations. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I secretly hope they'll make a world that's expanding in this new MMO, rather than consuming itself.

So...essentially your main complaint is that Blizzard is using their main characters from their RTSes as main characters in their MMOG?

 

[Fordel]

This is the gear people get made fun of about nowadays? Ouch. Glad I quit a long time ago. Sure, its a little agility and dodge heavy....but at least he's prot spec :)

It isn't "LOL" worthy, but the bar is indeed higher then it was for what I assume is a kara/gruul guild tank.

My guilds lead tank for comparison. Or a Paladin Tank from a friendly guild we run kara with. Knock off about a 1k HP or so due to buffs still up, but the difference is significant. We've never really left Kara/Heroics and would classed at the bottom of the PvE table. (Out side of the dude in 'Champion' Greens trying to PuG Heroic ShadowLabs  )

Healing those people is down right boring, but boring is good when tank healing  . Mitigation over avoidance pretty much any day of the week.
 

[Ratman_tf]

I hate the word potential.

 

[Venkman]

So...essentially your main complaint is that Blizzard is using their main characters from their RTSes as main characters in their MMOG?

I can't speak for Tarami, but I believe their (her? his?) point was that the RTS games set up a linear timeline of Bad Things and Good Things, throughout which the player progressed, learning, winning, losing. They weren't exactly story books, but they did have a sequence to them, plot, character growth, etc. And the Warcraft world then was a lot more dangerous. We got these badasses invading our homeland with the power of gods behind them, and maniacal megalomaniacs turning on their own species in thinking they'll go it alone. Twice! (sorta. thinking Illidan and Arthas here, different ages, same cause).

Meanwhile, WoW is pure stasis. Candycoated cold war stuff with minor skirmishes and over populated nature. Even the Draenei, the very first in this lore to experience the problems Sargeras brought, are little more than reskinned Night Elves with some wierd crystalline spacecraft. Ya know, if you could build that, and it still had power, the first thing you'd do after crashing on a new world is pick berries and sell empty vials.

And I completely agree on Outland. This world was wiped clean of life by the distorted Orcs (Hellfire Peninsula actually depicts it very wwell) and then shattered by raw abuse of power. And yet, it still has atmosphere, and a bunch of different races doling out pick berry quests, and empty vials.

Oh, and there was no real progression from pre-BC to Outland, timeline-wise.

I understand why this is. You still need to offer access to Rags and Naxx and let people turn in their wool cloth to open AQ (though why those NPCs are still there is beyond me).

I'm hoping though that Sunwell actually advances things a bit. Otherwise, we're stuck with the same lore-issue SWG has.

Except, of course, nobody gives a shit