Ask a Butcher! For Reals.

[voodoolily]

Armed with the research that Sweet Crunchy foods are appealing to more people than pungent foods, food manufacturers have teams of psychologists and researchers to create food that is esthetically enticing. For example: The red juice from beef is not the natural blood of cattle. The majority of blood is drained from the meat during processing and is replaced with red dyed water. Why? Because the actual color of beef is considered an unappealing blue/gray color. Look at the veins in the back of your hand or pulse point. It appears to be blue, which is the same effect with beef. Red dye is toxic, however, meat processors are compelled to use the red dye to satisfy consumers’ preference to have beef appear ‘blood red.’ Red dye in meat is seldom used in other countries.

I'm not saying that butchers dye their meat to keep it looking fresh past expiration, I am saying it is dyed before it ever gets to them. 

The red stuff is in muscle tissue is hemoglobin, not blood (and not dye). And blood is only blue until it makes contact with oxygen. Doesn't anyone take 9th grade biology anymore?

Also, red dyes are not all toxic. Most red dyes come from annato seed.

Stupid fucking alarmist media.

[Salamok]

The red stuff is in muscle tissue is hemoglobin, not blood (and not dye). And blood is only blue until it makes contact with oxygen. Doesn't anyone take 9th grade biology anymore?

Also, red dyes are not all toxic. Most red dyes come from annato seed.

Stupid fucking alarmist media.

I agree the media is often times alarmist & retarded.  I can also understand your oxygen turning blood red theory but that doesn't explain how I can go buy a nice thick cut of meat and slice it down the center while raw and the color is uniform throughout.  You would think if it were just a matter of oxygen that it would have a more dramatic effect closer to the portions that were actually exposed to air.  It also totally ignores the fact that most of the blood is drained from the carcas after slaughter and muscle by itself isn't red. 

I'm not trying to get into a debate on whether or not the manner in which my food is getting fucked with for marketing purposes is benign or not.  I would just rather they didn't, how many products have been ruined in the name of greater shelf life and/or profitability at the expense of something else that has gone mostly unnoticed until it was too late?  The only reason we are so attached to cartoonishly red meat is because we have been trained to associate it with quality and freshness.

[bhodi]

I just wish people would ignore the 'radiation' part of irradiation. It's safe for our food and a plain good idea, assholes.

But this is the wrong thread. Back to butchering!

I don't cook, but I still find this very interesting.

[voodoolily]

It also totally ignores the fact that most of the blood is drained from the carcas after slaughter and muscle by itself isn't red. 

Freshly-cut muscle is purplish-red, I know this from all the game I eat. It hasn't been dyed, but it really is a bright purplish-red meaty color.

[Yegolev]

First, I'm pro irradiation.

Second, when I leave my ground beef laying around for a while, it turns from red to grey.  Actually so do the steaks.

Third, ninth grade was a long time ago.

[cmlancas]

farm raised salmon isn't red at all and It just seems that the bright neon red colored steaks I buy at the costco meat counter seem cartoonish when compared to fresh killed venison.  So you are saying that this article and hundreds of others like it are wrong?
I'm not saying that butchers dye their meat to keep it looking fresh past expiration, I am saying it is dyed before it ever gets to them. 

Is that even close to a reputable article? Farm raised salmon has dye used in it, but retailers are REQUIRED BY LAW TO LET THE CONSUMER KNOW IT IS COLOR ENHANCED. Thanks. Meat isn't dyed. I know people who work in slaughterhouses and the like. It just doesn't happen. Sorry. Don't believe everything you read on the internets.

[cmlancas]

Okay, the whole thing about it turning a brighter red five minutes after you cut it, in the industry, is called bloom. When oxygen hits the meat, it brightens the color. If you could cut meat in a vacuum, it wouldn't do that and it would stay that really dark red color. Unfortunately, you can't.

Salamok, I understand your concern, but you make yourself look ignorant (which I know you aren't, you just want to know the truth) when you claim to know what you are talking about when you don't. That's why this thread is called Ask a Butcher, not ask Salamok for his misinformed opinion.


And by the way: Fresh meat does look bright red. And I've already said that I don't eat freshly cut meat. People who are "in the know" know that bright red meat is, on the whole, less tender than something that has bled out and been aged.

The media really gives the food industry a bad rep. Most of what you eat with the exception of some fish, comes without any preservatives at all. Period. Most of the meat doesn't even come frozen anymore!

Edit: If I can find a digital camera that works tonight, I'll demonstrate how to cut a whole chicken. If not, then too bad! :D

[Yegolev]

OK, preservatives are something I try to avoid but I am more concerened about hormones and whatnot in beef.  The chicken packages tell me that it's illegal to add hormones to chicken, but can you go over the details if you know?  I have been told it's legal to give hormones to dairy cattle, but you can't believe everything you read on the bathroom wall.

[cmlancas]

If it is veal, pork, poultry, or lamb, hormones are prohibited. Unless beef says explicitly it is no-hormone, assume there are hormones in it. You shop at Publix, right Yeg? The Greenwise stuff is no-hormone.

[Yegolev]

The Publix in my town closed.  Kroger or Super Target for me.  I will look at the labels.

[cmlancas]

There's one down the street in midtown. I could see it from my window at the terrace! :P

[Salamok]

farm raised salmon isn't red at all and It just seems that the bright neon red colored steaks I buy at the costco meat counter seem cartoonish when compared to fresh killed venison.  So you are saying that this article and hundreds of others like it are wrong?
I'm not saying that butchers dye their meat to keep it looking fresh past expiration, I am saying it is dyed before it ever gets to them. 

Is that even close to a reputable article? Farm raised salmon has dye used in it, but retailers are REQUIRED BY LAW TO LET THE CONSUMER KNOW IT IS COLOR ENHANCED. Thanks. Meat isn't dyed. I know people who work in slaughterhouses and the like. It just doesn't happen. Sorry. Don't believe everything you read on the internets.

no clue if it is a reputable article it is just one of the billion that popped up on a google search.  I am not a butcher or in the industry and I was here looking for an answer not looking to give answers.  On the flip side I am not a total ignorant and the question of dying meat isn't something that just occured to me one day.  Here are some of the facts that were the basis for my concerns:

1 - This used to be a common practice, it wasn't a fabrication made up by some paranoid lunatic listening to the voices in his head.  My father-in-law worked at a slaughterhouse for 30 years, they dyed their meat in much the same fashion as outlined in that article.  SO fuck me very much this practice was commonplace in Australia as recently as the 70's.

2 - Just the fact that there are now specific US laws in place governing the dying of meat should tip anyone off that gee this crap probably went on here too.

3 - In my own experience the closer food is to it's natural state the better it usually tastes.  Yes in this day and age of supersized automated processing facilities and shipping "fresh" produce all over the world the need for irradiation and other safety measures is definately there.  However, there is a reason that the nice red tomato from your garden tastes better than the nice red cardboard mockup of a tomato from the supermarket and this is a major part of that reason. 

[Yegolev]

There's one down the street in midtown. I could see it from my window at the terrace! :P

To paraphrase James Kirk, I'm from Hiram... I only work in Atlanta.

[cmlancas]

Sal, everything in my post should have answered your questions. The media would love to find a place that still does things like that. That reason is precisely why reputable places don't do it.

Anyway, I couldn't find a camera. Tomorrow I'll hope to find it packed away someplace.

[voodoolily]

I deboned the Thanksgiving turkey this year (well, just the breasts; I kept the legs, thighs and wings whole for the confit) and it wasn't that bad.

[Grand Design]

That meat slicing chart was a winner.  I also like to cut at an angle of about 30 degrees to separate the connective tissue.


I'll throw a question out there:

What is the most interesting thing you have butchered, cmlancas?

Human is not a valid answer.

[Oban]

The turkey turned out fine, I cooked it with some butter under the skin to make it extra crispy as well.  So far no one has been poisoned.

Yeehaw.

[Margalis]

I hear butchers aren't very smart. Thoughts? 

In all seriousness, I can't think of a single thing I'd want to ask a butcher.

[Abagadro]

Plato's concept of The Cave creates a normative argument that philosopher kings should be the conduit through which all knowledge is filtered for the "blind" masses. In light of this and Aristotle's rejection of the oligarchy in favor of the democracy as the best form of political government for "the City" (although not too much as such leads to anarchy), please tell me where I can get a good skirt steak and no one seems to carry them.

[cmlancas]

Hrm. A good skirt steak, you say? Well, you'd be surprised to find that quite a few supermarkets that carry all "USDA Choice" beef might not have choice skirt steaks. Why? Well, skirt steaks are considered an offal meat -- not a traditional steak cut, since it comes as a byproduct.

That being said, I would advise you first to find a butcher/supermarket you like, then, if they don't have skirts readily available to you, ask them to get some in for you -- I'm sure they can if they are a big chain. If quality is an issue, ask if the meat is USDA Choice. Generally, before they bust open the cryovac, you should be able to see a picture kinda like this on it: .

The most interesting thing I have butchered? Hrm. Probably fish, to be honest with you. Cutting beef is really easy. Fish is tougher, you have to be careful with your knife or you lose cash. Grouper retails for the same price as beef tenderloin steak around here. I suppose with meat though, I prefer to cut shortloins and beef ribs. I like the ability to pick and choose which steaks are going home with me before they ever hit the case/shelf.
GD, it also might freak you out that animals are generally put together in a similar manner. Pork, beef/veal, venison, and lamb are all put together more-or-less the same. I could probably butcher you no problem. 

Marg: Yeah. I know. Unfortunately we rank just above trolling Harvard law graduates though. 

[Murgos]

Plato's concept of The Cave creates a normative argument that philosopher kings should be the conduit through which all knowledge is filtered for the "blind" masses. In light of this and Aristotle's rejection of the oligarchy in favor of the democracy as the best form of political government for "the City" (although not too much as such leads to anarchy), please tell me where I can get a good skirt steak and no one seems to carry them.

Philosopher kings?  I just got that truth is subject to perspective from The Cave.  I can usually ask the butchers at Publix for a skirt steak and they can find me one.  I usually slice it up and slow cook it in tons of butter with onions and green peppers for my fajitas.

edit:  Are you referring to the part where the prisoner goes back into the cave?  I always thought that was just him rationalizing why everyone else thought he was nuts.

[Sky]

SO fuck me very much this practice was commonplace in Australia as recently as the 70's.

Weren't they still butchering each other for stew an island over that recently? I'm pretty sure we're talking about the US of A in this thread.

[Teleku]

Plato's concept of The Cave creates a normative argument that philosopher kings should be the conduit through which all knowledge is filtered for the "blind" masses. In light of this and Aristotle's rejection of the oligarchy in favor of the democracy as the best form of political government for "the City" (although not too much as such leads to anarchy), please tell me where I can get a good skirt steak and no one seems to carry them.

Philosopher kings?  I just got that truth is subject to perspective from The Cave.  I can usually ask the butchers at Publix for a skirt steak and they can find me one.  I usually slice it up and slow cook it in tons of butter with onions and green peppers for my fajitas.

edit:  Are you referring to the part where the prisoner goes back into the cave?  I always thought that was just him rationalizing why everyone else thought he was nuts.

I'm pretty sure he was just citing the philosopher king to tie in Plato's Republic to make it sound even more like bloated academia bullshit.  Of course, its been a long time since I read the alegory, so maybe that was something I missed/forgot.

[Grand Design]

GD, it also might freak you out that animals are generally put together in a similar manner. Pork, beef/veal, venison, and lamb are all put together more-or-less the same.

Does Jackalope fall into that category?  My freezer is packed with them but I can't find anyone to do the deed.

I'll throw another one out there.  I've made ground beef, from round to filet, but it's hard to find a sausage with quality meat.  I've had sausage that was packed with chunks of meat as opposed to whatever was left over after the steaks were cut, but its usually from a small shop out in the boonies.  Is there a brand that you've found that is quality chunk meat?  The closest I've had was Tony Chachere's green onion sausage, but I haven't seen it in two years.  Also, have you ever made hog's head cheese?  Yum.

[hal]

The secret to sausage nirvana is to make it your self. It is not hard and great recipes are at hand. I trust you know google? I recommend using pork butts to end with a steak like product that will satisfy. The problem is the consumer can not tell what meat the sausage maker used so... the answer is the cheapest possible.

[cmlancas]

Stuff about ground beef.

I find the best ground beef is made out of chuck meat or a brisket. Mmmm.

[lamaros]

I'm pretty sure he was just citing the philosopher king to tie in Plato's Republic to make it sound even more like bloated academia bullshit.  Of course, its been a long time since I read the alegory, so maybe that was something I missed/forgot.

I believe he was making a point about how butchers are stupid and can't possibly get their heads around philosophy. Seeing that cmlancas didn't respond to that statement in any way is proof that his mind is too simple to even comprehend it. Thankfully, not being able to discern the insult, cmlancas was not offended.

Meanwhile...

I grew up as something of a vegeterian. I ate fish and other seafood but never red meat. Over the last 10 years of my life I've been eating more and more red meat, with mixed results. I recently enjoyed a steak for the first time in my life and don't mind some lamb from time to time. However I remain extremely picky and cannot eat any meat unless it is of good quality and well prepared, even if I enjoy it if it is.

What other animals/cuts of meat would you suggest as quality eating for a picky person like myself? I've yet to enjoy any part of a pig!

[Abagadro]

I shouldn't make jokes about stuff said in the politics forum since lots of people don't go in there.

[Paelos]

I shouldn't make jokes about stuff said in the politics forum since lots of people don't go in there.

Yes, please wipe your feet before walking out of there. 

[bhodi]

That comment was so worth it though. That, and lamaros' egg-on-face routine. Man, been taking a lot of flak recently, I guess you're the new whipping boy.

[lamaros]

That comment was so worth it though. That, and lamaros' egg-on-face routine. Man, been taking a lot of flak recently, I guess you're the new whipping boy.

I shouldn't make jokes about stuff said in the politics forum since lots of people don't go in there.

Egg on who's face?

[voodoolily]

Stuff about ground beef.

I find the best ground beef is made out of chuck meat or a brisket. Mmmm.

I find that the best ground beef is made from a combo of buffalo, lamb and pork. 

[Oban]

I find that the best ground beef is made from a combo of buffalo, lamb and pork. 

Do you buy that pre-made/packed and if so what is it called?

[voodoolily]

It's supposed to be a joke (there's no beef in it) - I make it myself with a meat grinder. But I should still name it! I will call it:
HOLY TRINITY

[Grand Design]

I was wondering why there was no beef in your ground beef.   That sounds delicious.


The 'Holy Trinity' is also a term used to describe the combination of chopped celery, onions and bell peppers - saute'ed to clarity.

It has a distinctive flavor that is best recognized in seafood based cream soups, but can be used in a variety of dishes.

I use it when making meatballs - saute the Trinity and add it to 1 part sausage meat and 1 part ground sirloin, with almost 2 parts stale french bread.

But that ground meat combo would make them superior indeed.

This thread is making me hungry.