Ask a Butcher! For Reals.

[cmlancas]

Yes, I'm a butcher, and I've been PMed on Steam/other places about different things relating to cutting meat and general raw food related questions.

That being said, if you have some questions for a butcher that you'd never ask the one in your grocery store because he/she is 1) scary, 2) hard to approach, 3) freakin' disgusting, or 4) non-existent; ask here! I'll try to answer your questions fully.

Also, I'd like to post some knife porn in here too since we kinda got off-topic in the kitchen thread.
A knife everyone should own because it is the best bang for his/her buck:
Where I work buys these things for $4 a pop. You should be able to find them for about $12 if you have a specialty supply place.

Later in this thread I'm going to post some pictures and some how-to guides for eating on the cheap. I don't make a ton of money and I pay my own bills. That being said, I think I eat pretty darn well (Not VDL well, but I make do ).

[geldonyetich2]

In truth I have legitimate meat-related concerns, such is my irrational desire for fine dining, but I feel under-qualified to bring them up.  I'm the butcher shop equivalent of the grandma that walks into CompUSA knowing only that she wants one of these new-fangled computery things with the lights and the hard drive attached to the keyboard.

[Nebu]

I don't know why, but this is the first thing that popped into my head when I read this thread.



Thanks for the tip on the knife.  I may pick up a couple and give them a try.  Can you give me the brand name and style?  I can't quite make it out from the pic.

[Lt.Dan]

Is there any truth to claims that supermarkets 'doctor' their meet to keep it coloured red and looking fresh?

Do you buy meat from a butcher or supermarket?

What cut of meat is stupidly overvalued and which cuts of meat are good bargains?

Give us three simple butchery tips to save top-dollar!

Edit: engrish

[Grand Design]

What exactly is a London Broil?

I know that it refers to the method of preparation and not the cut of meat, but it always appears to be the same cut of meat.

London Broil is my favorite on-the-semi-cheap dish to prepare.



I worked with a butcher in high school and have much appreciation for those who do it.

/salute

[penfold]

Do you work at a commercial scale or out of a butchers shop?

At what stage do you start on the carcass these days? My brother bought some lamb at a butchers in Belgrade last week, and ended up buying a neck, shoulder, leg with which, with an exclamation that he was doing extra special favour for my brother, because its a delicacy or something, he added the head too. Is that even possible in US butchers these days or are they all shipped off for catfood long before it reaches your supplier?
 
If you work at traditional/independent butchers do you make hams, sausages and other prepared meats?

Whats your own favourite cut and cooking method of beef, lamb and pork?

Oh. In case anyone is wondering what he did with the head. He wrapped it in some plastic bags and put it in the bin.

[Signe]

Meat!  WooHoo!  Why is lamb so fucking expensive in the US?

[cmlancas]

Okay, I'm going to Bruce a little bit here, but in order of posting:

1) Nebu: Victorinox, Fibrox series. I'd recommend a chef, a boning, and a paring knife. Getting a set of twelve knives really overdoes it; how many times do you really need 12 knives in the kitchen?

2) Lt.Dan: It really depends. You want to make sure you are getting USDA Choice/Prime wherever you go. Prime carries a premium, but anything less than Choice lacks quality.

3) Lt.Dan: Stupidly overvalued? Anything thin. Also chicken breasts. Three things I'd recommend buying are: whole chickens and cutting them yourself; bone-in pork roasts and boning them out; and finally, chuck-eye steaks, if your market carries them (these are original delmonicos -- don't let a butcher trick you into buying a chuck steak, which is a piece of shit on the grill.

4) GD: Traditional london broils are actually pectoral meat, folded under into a steak. I don't know if I could give you a picture, only because I don't really cook them. More common london broils are cut from a top round, also known as an inside round. It does also refer to preparation, but that's really lost its meaning nowadays. It's kinda like a Prime Rib. Prime Rib originally referred to USDA Prime Rib Steaks. Nowadays people call Prime Rib anything that is a ribeye steak (not correct). And also, becoming a butcher is easy. After I do some posts showing easy ways to cut things, people will really appreciate how far cash can go for meat (Especially chicken).

5) PF: I've worked at both, since I was 18. I'm 21 now. The biggest piece of meat I cut nowadays (closest to a hanging side) would be either a beef loin (top sirloin+porterhouse+tbone) or a whole pork loin (same thing, but pork). Whole rounds, arm chucks, and the like really don't exist anymore in a retail setting. However, the smaller the animal, typically the bigger the meat starts. For example, I can get a whole leg (round) of lamb. You don't see that in beef anymore. Lamb head is a delicacy?  Not in the USA. You could probably find a head somewhere if you looked hard enough though. I know pigs' heads are easily found.

6) Signe: Domestic lamb is expensive. Imported NZ/Aus lamb is inexpensive. Also, most places carry USDA choice lamb, a higher quality and better tasting lamb. Unfortunately, if you like lamb/veal, there really isn't a whole lot you can do on the consumer's end to reduce the price of these species -- they are generally just flat expensive.

[cmlancas]

If you work at traditional/independent butchers do you make hams, sausages and other prepared meats?

Whats your own favourite cut and cooking method of beef, lamb and pork?

Traditional retail places -might- do their own sausage still, depending on the chain, but not many places make their owns hams anymore unless it really is a super-specialty shop. They are very labor intensive. I'd say 99% of small butcher shops make their own sausage because they don't want to waste any pork when they cut. When you say prepared meat, I'm not sure what you mean. We have stuff where I work called HMR (Home Meal Replacement) which are things like stuffed chicken breasts and kabobs and such.

My favorite beef cut would be a standing rib roast (which I'll show a picture of when I get around to posting my pictures this Christmas -- I always cook one every Christmas eve). For single servings, the best steak you can buy for the price (if you don't mind a fatty cut) is a chuck-eye.

My favorite value pork cut has to be a boston butt (arm-chuck for pork). These things are freakin' awesome in a slow cooker. However, if money is no option, I'd rather slow cook myself some baby back ribs with some Howton Farms (a specialty BBQ rib saucemaker where I live) Sauce. Southern Bell Sweet Heat is amazing.

My favorite chicken meal really varies. Chicken doesn't taste very different from meal to meal. That's why it is chicken. However, if I were doing a roast chicken, I'd suggest beer can, and root beer if you like a sweet flavor. Personally, when I cook a whole chicken, I eat a breast and a thigh. (YMMV)

My favorite cat recipe is General Tso's...   

My favorite fish meal has to be grouper sandwiches. You could really substitute cod/tilefish/haddock/halibut/insert whitefish here, but grouper really cooks up amazingly. Not for the faint of wallet though.


Oh, also, there is absolutely NO WAY any company could get away with coloring their beef or add breading to ground beef or whatever the rumors are. Health codes are pretty damn stringent nowadays. It just doesn't happen; it'd be suicide for a company. However, I can tell you that I've definitely heard stories about stuff happening like that maybe twenty-five someodd years ago. People actually tend to like ground beef better with bread in it.

[Lt.Dan]

Why to McDonald's meat patties look like poo and sawdust in a bun.
 

[Grand Design]

Insightful Butchering Knowledge

That makes sense.  I like the London Broil because it is a generally tough piece of meat that, if prepared correctly, can be tender and delicious. 

I agree with the chuck eye - you can't get a cheaper, better tasting and tender steak.  If you get the right cut, the difference between that and a rib eye is negligible.  I like to trim down (not off) the fat before I cook them.  The Delmonico is definitely the one to look for.  A supermarket that I used to shop at had a butcher who would correctly cut and label the Delmonicos - a rarity.  You could get two, inch and a half thick steaks for about four US dollars.

I think Signe mentioned the deer filet earlier.  Most deer hunters keep this cut to themselves, and rightly so.  I managed to get one from a hunter last season and it was absolutely unbelievable.  Most deer is an acquired taste, but not the tenderloin.  That is a piece of meat that everyone should try at least once in their life.  Deer sausage, on the flipside, is easily acquired and is hands down the best sausage.  Zero fat, maximum flavor.

As for pork - I find the Boston Butt a bit gamy.  Like you said, it's a meat that needs to be slow cooked and seasoned.  Boston Butt can be fun to experiment with because it is a ton of meat at a cheap price.  With meat like that, Dr. Pepper can indeed be a marinade. 

Lamb?  If I'm served lamb, I will gladly eat it.  That's about all I can say.

Chicken - the chicken of meats.  When and why the hell did wings become so fucking expensive?  When I was in college, you could get them for 39 cents a pound.  Is this some sort of communist conspiracy?  (I would be interested to know the answer to the first question.)

Redfish is my favorite fish because it is easily grilled.  Any time you can grill something that is good for you is a good combination.  But shellfish are Where It's At. 



You should take anything I say with a pinch of salt, but when I was your age I was working long hours in every part of a kitchen and even though I loved my job at the time, I didn't realize how much I would miss it now.  Take that for what it's worth, but if you have a passion for what you do in the kitchen, I think it's fantastic.

[voodoolily]

Meat!  WooHoo!  Why is lamb so fucking expensive in the US?

You can usually get a couple pounds of boneless leg from Trader Joe's in the 10 quid range. I think it's pretty tasty, and they finally started packing it without their grody marinade and crusty seasonings on it.

[voodoolily]

How does one age meat at home? I got a tenderloin of pronghorn (I know that this was what it was) that I wanted to age for a week or so but ate it anyway. It was good, but coulda been better, I just know it! My dad hunts a lot and I know I can improve the flavor of a lot of what he gives me with a little time in the chill chest.

Answers. I demand them!

[Yegolev]

Publicly posting that the 8" Victorinox chef's knife I bought from Amazon on cmlancas' advice is super hot.  I also bought a sharpening steel and apparently figured out how to use it since my shitty aluminum-handled straight knives actually cut worth a damn now.  $20 for the knife and can't-remember-but-cheap for the steel, and I'm happy.  I might get a paring knife but the chef's knife works for what I do.

[stu]

Hi, cm. I'm glad you started this thread. I have a couple questions. Will my local butcher typically know the origin of the meat I'm buying? Will most butchers be able to tell me what the livestock were fed before they were slaughtered?

The reason I bring this up is because I recently came across this article:

Exactly what do chickens and cows eat before we eat them?

Since I haven't had time to go to the supermarket over the past couple days, I thought I'd just ask to see if you or anyone else here could shed some light on this.

(This is like Dear Abby, but for meat!)

[voodoolily]

stu (and everyone), you should read The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan. It is really good.

[stu]

Ooo. Only ten bucks on Amazon. And it's very recent. I'm still behind on the small pile of books I have, but I'll bump this up on my to-read list and then give it away as a Christmas present to my best friend's mom (she's a Nutritionist). Thanks!

[SnakeCharmer]

Great freakin' thread...

Now I'm hungry...

[Paelos]

I'm looking for the best cut of meat to make fajitas with and the best way to tenderize it. I've been using flank steak in the past, but I'm not sure I'm giving it the best treatment or the using the right cut.

[cmlancas]

I'm looking for the best cut of meat to make fajitas with and the best way to tenderize it. I've been using flank steak in the past, but I'm not sure I'm giving it the best treatment or the using the right cut.

Skirt steak or top sirloin cap steak, depending on price range. The best way to tenderize it is to cut it against the grain:

If a skirt steak is presented as such:

____________________________________________________,

cut it horizontally, against the grain. Skirts make amazing fajitas because they have the perfect amount of fat. Flanks are good, but I think are wasted in fajitas, personally.

I'll answer the rest of the questions tomorrow :)

[Paelos]

Ok, stupid question time. When you say against the grain in meat, how do I tell which way the grain is going? I mean, I caddy for a golf course, so I know the way to check for the grain on the greens, but I don't have a similar trick for meat. Thanks.

[cmlancas]

How does one age meat at home? I got a tenderloin of pronghorn (I know that this was what it was) that I wanted to age for a week or so but ate it anyway. It was good, but coulda been better, I just know it! My dad hunts a lot and I know I can improve the flavor of a lot of what he gives me with a little time in the chill chest.

Answers. I demand them!

I'm not an expert on dry aging, but many people don't know that beef/venison/bison/redmeat has an insane shelf-life (with the exception of ground beef). DO NOT EXCEED A SHELF LIFE ON GROUND BEEF. YOU WILL GET SICK. If I take a rib-roast, leave it in the fridge for a week and a half, cut the green off and cook it, it's pretty damn tasty. Personally, I only do mine in the fridge for ~5 days. Since I'm cutting the meat at my retail establishment, I know when it came out of the cryovac. I generally refuse to eat "fresh cut" meat because it typically is more tough -- every day that you let the meat sit and bleed out, the more the fibers will break down, and the more tender it will be. My target range (and there are some specialty items out there online if you look that can keep meat at the proper humidity/temp for weeks on end before you cook em) for my beef is just before it turns grey. My girlfriend refuses to eat it if it is green and I shave it off.

Will my local butcher typically know the origin of the meat I'm buying? Will most butchers be able to tell me what the livestock were fed before they were slaughtered?

Maybe, maybe not. It depends where you are buying it from. If you are active enough to go through the whole rigamaroll of buying beef at a fair and having it slaughtered yourself, you might could know all of it. Typically though, if you're at a big retail chain, mostly all they will know are characteristics like, vegetarian-fed, no-hormone, free-range.... stuff like that. All beef has a COOL (country of origin law) tag on it, but most beef comes from the USA anyway. It's too expensive to ship stuff from Mexico. Every now and then, very, very rarely, I'll see Canadaian stuff. I haven't seen it in three or so years though.

Oh, and chicken is juicy because they more or less marinate in their own shit. Just accept it and get over it -- sometimes we eat things that are tasty that, when analyzed, are disgusting.

[Oban]

Hello Mr. Butcher,

Long time listener, first time caller, love your show.

I bought a twelve pound young turkey yesterday afternoon.  The turkey has an expiry date of the sixth of December. 

So, my question is...  How long can I keep this uncooked beast in the fridge before it will go bad? 

Thank you.

[Signe]

I wonder about that sort of stuff, too.  Nearly all the cold cuts of meat I buy state 3-5 days but I know that's bollocks.  I keep my lunch meat in air tight containers and I'm sure some cold cuts, such as cured Genoa salami and prosciutto, live much longer than... say... sliced turkey or ham.  I can't really go on my nose because my mind plays tricks on it when I'm thinking of spoiled meat.  I'm sure I toss out perfectly good stuff now and then. 

[kaid]

Meat!  WooHoo!  Why is lamb so fucking expensive in the US?

Probably because mutton is not as popular in the States as it is over in the UK and europe thus we do not have many people raising sheepies for food and so the cost for the few that are sold for food is higher.

[cmlancas]

So, my question is...  How long can I keep this uncooked beast in the fridge before it will go bad? 

I never recommend keeping poultry past the sell-by date. However, if you run into a problem where you forgot to use it on say, the sixth, and you go to use it the seventh, you should give it a nice long whiff. If it doesn't knock you on your ass, it's still good. There's no in between on bad poultry -- it either is or it isn't.

On Cold Cuts, (I actually used to work at a deli too, heh), turkey really shouldn't be kept more than about a week. With salamis and salted meats (capicola, et al), they last much longer. Use your best judgement.
Oh. And on cheese? I used to work at a deli where when the cheese would mold, we'd just cut it off and put it back out. No one ever complained. Think about that the next time you wonder, "is this cheese good when it has mold on it?" Yes! Just cut it off and eat the damn thing. 

[cmlancas]

Ok, stupid question time. When you say against the grain in meat, how do I tell which way the grain is going? I mean, I caddy for a golf course, so I know the way to check for the grain on the greens, but I don't have a similar trick for meat. Thanks.

[Ookii]

Ever cut the tips of your fingers off in the meat slicer?

[cmlancas]

No. However, my brother did slice a part of his palm off because he wasn't properly using the guard on a slicer. It happens (to people who aren't safe), but not very much. I use a ton of dangerous equipment every day. People who get hurt by them, in my opinion, weren't being safe enough.

[Salamok]

#1 - why does every butcher east of california "butcher" my tri tip roast by cutting all the fat off ;(

#2 - can we stop dying all our meat please.

[cmlancas]

1) Ask them not to do that. Simple enough.
2) That doesn't happen. Sorry. And if it does, call your local news station and watch them have a media field day with a story like that. And after that, watch your store go out of business.

Did you read the thread when I posted that earlier though?

[Oban]

Salamok might have been referring to:

Congress debates carbon monoxide in meat packaging

Anyway, thank you for the answer regarding the turkey.  I am going to try a two-stage roasting recipe from my Dean&Deluca cookbook tomorrow.  Really hope I do not poison my family.

[cmlancas]

Oh. That. You should be able to ask your retail establishment whether or not they use CO in packaging of stuff or not. Generally the only place you would see something like that (and I'm not saying this is always true) is with something that has been pre-packaged before it ever hit retail. Where I work, we wrap all of our stuff in-house, and I don't even know how I would treat it with CO. I was also under the impression that it doesn't really affect anyone very much, when it is done.

I work for one of the largest chains in the SE. They don't use CO on anything, ever. Fish is mostly where you see it, typically with Yellowfin Tuna. Believe it or not, yellowfin doesn't come that amazingly bright pink color all the time. Typically it is a little darker than that, and a little washed-out looking. Every now and then (at least where I work) I'll see some that is really pink looking.

There is an off chance that someone might lie to you about it though, but as far is pork/beef/chicken goes, if it isn't vacuum sealed, you probably won't have a problem.

Also, don't confuse CO packaging with air-displacement packaging. Some ground meats are specially packaged with a unique concentration of air. This is the first thing I came up with on google, and it looks pretty informative. I think air-displacement packaging is brilliant for ground chicken, turkey, and products meat departments don't sell regularly.

[Salamok]

Did you read the thread when I posted that earlier though?

farm raised salmon isn't red at all and It just seems that the bright neon red colored steaks I buy at the costco meat counter seem cartoonish when compared to fresh killed venison.  So you are saying that this article and hundreds of others like it are wrong?

Armed with the research that Sweet Crunchy foods are appealing to more people than pungent foods, food manufacturers have teams of psychologists and researchers to create food that is esthetically enticing. For example: The red juice from beef is not the natural blood of cattle. The majority of blood is drained from the meat during processing and is replaced with red dyed water. Why? Because the actual color of beef is considered an unappealing blue/gray color. Look at the veins in the back of your hand or pulse point. It appears to be blue, which is the same effect with beef. Red dye is toxic, however, meat processors are compelled to use the red dye to satisfy consumers’ preference to have beef appear ‘blood red.’ Red dye in meat is seldom used in other countries.

I'm not saying that butchers dye their meat to keep it looking fresh past expiration, I am saying it is dyed before it ever gets to them. 

[voodoolily]

Carbon monoxide isn't really a big deal unless you breathe it. It's just a carbon and an oxygen, people!

"Tonight on Inside Edition: Meat packers are rinsing YOUR meat in dihydrogen oxide. What you don't know MAY KILL YOU!"