Ask a Butcher! For Reals.

[cmlancas]

I like to do larger roasts, but I'm not exactly sure what kind of cut for that I should use on a bang-for-the-buck item when it comes to beef.

For example, I want to do a roast for about 7-8 up at the lakehouse, but I don't want to break the bank on a bunch of meat and potatoes drunks. 

For less coin, I'm a big fan of rump roasts (pointy end of a bottom round roast).  They have enough fat for them to still be really good when you slow roast them and make a nice roast beef.  You can cook these in a bag with veggies and they'll all have that nice beef-veggie-potato flavor.  I like to buy a little more than I need because I love to thin slice (or even chunk it up, if i'm lazy) the roast for roast beef sandwiches in the a.m./lunchish hours. 

Oh, and don't think yourself redneck if you buy some nice white bread to go with that.  That's what the juice is for!

[01101010]

I'll come over when the electrical grid crashes. I'll need someone to cut up the animals.

[Evildrider]

I'll come over when the electrical grid crashes. I'll need someone to cut up the animals.

If we aren't all eaten by zombies first.

[Paelos]

Thanks! I'll go for a rump roast this weekend with some root veg.

[cmlancas]

Thanks! I'll go for a rump roast this weekend with some root veg.

Pics or it didn't happen?   

In all seriousness though, let me know how it works out.  :)

[Bunk]

There are two things you'll want to keep in mind when making stir fry (well, three, if you consider price--but we'll leave that off the table for now).

First is the thickness of your stir fry meat.  What're you going for?  If it's something like fajitas, I always recommend thicker-sliced tri-tip (top sirloin cap steak).  If it's a Cantonese-style stir fry, using a bottom round sliced roast beef thin at the butcher shop is probably your best bet. As a general rule the thinner you cut it, the more tender it will be.

Second is your quality of meat.  The best French dip you've ever had is probably from the loin-end of the beef rib (think where the rib meets the t-bone) because it's a quality steak that isn't too fatty while still giving amazing flavor.  But, a french dip is essentially thin-sliced steak on a bun with little to mask the quality of the steak.  So, if your steak sucks, your sandwich sucks.  No amount of amazing jus is going to cover up your shit sandwich.  With that in mind, think about what you're cooking:  you really can use a very inexpensive cut if you're introducing excellent flavors and slicing it very thin -- essentially, you're using the beef for texture more than anything else.

That should at least give a good baseline for the question.  What exactly are you cooking, so that I might make a more specific recommendation?

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a former butcher now--I took a promotion and write training now.  However, I still do a lot of butchering at home to stay in practice (but mostly to save money).

Good stuff - I was mostly referring to your Cantonese type stir-fry, so that helps. As for french dip, I was unfortunately spoiled by my mother as a child - I don't think she really liked beef much, so when she did do roasts it was always prime rib. Nothing quite like french dip made from leftover prime rib. (I like my french dip cut thick, rather than shaved)

As to the chicken thing, I've never quite had the nerve to try butchering a full chicken, though I do regularly buy bone in thighs and bone them, as they're about half the price, which more than makes up for paying for the bone. Doesn't seem to be much of a point to grab a whole chicken when I really prefer the dark meat anyways.

[cmlancas]

Doesn't seem to be much of a point to grab a whole chicken when I really prefer the dark meat anyways.

Believe it or not, breaking a chicken is only eight knife cuts (10 if you separate drumettes from wings and 12 if you cut off wing joints, and when you do it once, you'll think to yourself...that's it?

It's all about finding the joints.  I'll put up a quick-like MS Paint diagram when I get home.


Also, super jealous of prime rib steak sandwiches.  I am flippin' starving right now.

[Khaldun]

This is a fucking awesome thread and I don't know how I didn't see it in its last go-round.

Ok, here's a question: why is it so very difficult to find hanger steak in any market? Even some of the butchers in the Italian Market down in Philly don't stock it. I don't mean the thin-cut skirts that come from the inside of the diaphragm, but the whole piece that you can often find in restaurants? I know it used to be kind of a secret among butchers themselves. Is it just that restaurants are grabbing most of what might be available?

Another question: what are butchers doing with bones? When I ask for bones, especially beef or pork bones (pork bones especially for making my special ramen broth) again, most butchers (in supermarkets or independent ones) look at me and say, "I don't think we have any". I'm not trying to mooch freebies, I'm willing to pay--so I'm thinking sometimes the bones must be spoken for in some way. (This is a problem with fishmongers too.)

If a butcher decides to carry anything besides the basic four animals (pigs, cows, chickens, lamb), what are the options? E.g., does the butcher need to develop a specific relationship with a specific local supplier, or are there bigger-scale middlemen for meats like goat, duck, etc.?

[Numtini]

I'll affirm that butchering a chicken is easy. (Go watch a youtube on how to do it first and have a good knife) It is also, however, completely disgusting in terms of spreading chicken goo everywhere. It pays to do more than one at a time.

Now, my huge thank you, I have prayed for this thread to get necroed because I have a question. What happened to sirloin steaks?! When I was just a tiny larvae, it was the only steak we ate. I remember it being absolutely ubiquitous in supermarkets, mid-priced, with solid flavor and also pretty forgiving to cook.

Now, I only see it at the little foodie market, never at a mainstream market like Stop and Shop or Star. The closest thing I see mass market is something marketed as "shell sirloin" which has the same basic texture and flavor and pricepoint, but is a square cut missing the outer fat layer and multiple sections (loins? my terminology is not good). It seems to be part of the largest section, about half the size of a sirloin steak, without any of the side bits. It's almost never available and when it is, it usually is tied up for no apparent reason--I suspect the only time I see it is when they cut up a roast in the summer in order to move product. So what happened to the real thing? Is it just where I live not stocking it? Have they changed the marketing name? Has it moved upscale only? Is it being carved up into different cuts?

It looked basically like

[Khaldun]

I deboned an entire chicken the other day while keeping it all intact. Breasts are easy to debone and you should always do it yourself unless you're in a terrible rush. Legs and thighs are a bit harder.

[cmlancas]

This is a fucking awesome thread and I don't know how I didn't see it in its last go-round.

Thanks!  Really, it's my pleasure.  Also, voodoolily was providing quite a few threads about food, so I figured I'd give my two pennies of knowledge.

Ok, here's a question: why is it so very difficult to find hanger steak in any market? Even some of the butchers in the Italian Market down in Philly don't stock it. I don't mean the thin-cut skirts that come from the inside of the diaphragm, but the whole piece that you can often find in restaurants? I know it used to be kind of a secret among butchers themselves. Is it just that restaurants are grabbing most of what might be available?

Once upon a time there was such a thing as a garbage cut of meat.  Offals (pronounced awf-als) included such cuts as tongue, tripe, hanger steak, flank, and skirt.  Thing is, folks learned how to cook it and make it tasty.  That's why sometimes you can actually find middle meat (rib/shortloin) for less than offals nowadays.  So, let's take something like hanger steak -- not very much comes from a side of beef.  What ends up happening is twofold:  one, large grocery chains don't carry it because it's a bit of a novelty (and they order by the case--it's cheaper to say no than to try to special order something like that); and two, as you said, most restaurants end up scooping up what is available. 

Another question: what are butchers doing with bones? When I ask for bones, especially beef or pork bones (pork bones especially for making my special ramen broth) again, most butchers (in supermarkets or independent ones) look at me and say, "I don't think we have any". I'm not trying to mooch freebies, I'm willing to pay--so I'm thinking sometimes the bones must be spoken for in some way. (This is a problem with fishmongers too.)

There are two factors at play here. 

First, if you're looking for soup bones, the kind your father's father used to boil and then eat the marrow out of, and your local grocer is telling you they can't get them, they're either lazy or stupid (or maybe both).  They come in frozen, keep forever, and have an exceptionally high profit margin.

Now, if you're looking for fresh bones from where someone might've done some boning (think the bones that come out of a t-bone steak), these practically don't exist anymore.  A butcher (or a successful one, at least) wants to sell what he can with as little waste as possible.  Butchers aren't what they used to be, and I'm an example of this:  practically nobody who isn't a hunter or someone who works a slaughterhouse can cut swinging beef.  With this in mind, suppliers send in product requiring minimal processing.  Barely anyone is ordering in a whole beef loin (bone-in strip, t-bone steak/porterhouse, and top sirloin) just so they can cut boneless steaks out of them.  A butcher would lose his ass doing this because the supplier has made it where it's cheaper to process the pre-boned out stuff.

You'll noticed I only spoke about beef here.  Pork neck bones and bones from pork picnics and boston butts are widely available.  This might be one of those times where if you have a favorite meat market, you have to hoof it to the supermarket--a smaller market might not do the volume to have what you're looking for.

Lastly, in my experience at a larger supermarket chain, I found it very profitable to order in whole fish and do the processing myself.  My supplier gave deep discounts on whole fish.  I routinely had folks who bought fish heads for fish head soup (Tampa has a large Asian contingent) and this helped me turn insane profit margins.  Unfortunately, your run of the mill seafood guy probably lacks the skills and business sense to do this.  Many seafood people at supermarket chains are butcher dropouts.  That being said, a true fishmonger who is processing his own whole fish should drool at the chance to sell you his fish heads rather than throwing them away.  But, he/she might have a relationship with the asian kitchen down the street...

TL;DR for this section:  cheaper for butchers to not mess with beef bones, pork bones probably available, fish heads and bones should be too, but might take more effort.

If a butcher decides to carry anything besides the basic four animals (pigs, cows, chickens, lamb), what are the options? E.g., does the butcher need to develop a specific relationship with a specific local supplier, or are there bigger-scale middlemen for meats like goat, duck, etc.?

Again, two options here:  you'd either have a great relationship with a local supplier, or everything comes in frozen.  Local shrimp and crabs, for those of you who were raised along a shoreline, fall into the same boat (see what I did there?   ).  Fresh goat and duck for most businesses just isn't practical:  you have to order way more than you can sell.  So, most businesses (supermarkets especially) carry frozen.

[cmlancas]

Now, my huge thank you, I have prayed for this thread to get necroed because I have a question. What happened to sirloin steaks?! When I was just a tiny larvae, it was the only steak we ate. I remember it being absolutely ubiquitous in supermarkets, mid-priced, with solid flavor and also pretty forgiving to cook.

What you posted a picture of is a top sirloin -- the staple of any successful lower-to-middle-priced steakhouse.  This is an extremely common cut -- in fact, I think it was in the Publix (comparable to Stop and Shop) ad last week for $4.99/lb.

You might also run across this with the bone in, called a spoon-bone sirloin.

Now, I only see it at the little foodie market, never at a mainstream market like Stop and Shop or Star. The closest thing I see mass market is something marketed as "shell sirloin" which has the same basic texture and flavor and pricepoint, but is a square cut missing the outer fat layer and multiple sections (loins? my terminology is not good). It seems to be part of the largest section, about half the size of a sirloin steak, without any of the side bits. It's almost never available and when it is, it usually is tied up for no apparent reason--I suspect the only time I see it is when they cut up a roast in the summer in order to move product.

If I had to guess, this is a bottom sirloin.  It's very common to see it tied up because it takes a lot of work to remove the gristly bits that make for a bad meal.  It's pretty tasty when tenderized, but has much less flavor than what you're looking for.  If you posted a picture I'd be able to know for sure (and, if I weren't on my phone, I'd Google-fu it).

[cmlancas]

I deboned an entire chicken the other day while keeping it all intact. Breasts are easy to debone and you should always do it yourself unless you're in a terrible rush. Legs and thighs are a bit harder.

Boning chicken is an awesome way to save yourself some money--good on you, mate!

Boneless, skinless chicken thighs with butter, salt, pepper, and garlic is my favorite simple chicken dish.  So much ridiculous flavor there.

[NowhereMan]

I really love chicken thighs as a cheap and easy protein source but really don't understand boneless, skinless thighs. I'll just season them, throw a bit of garlic and thyme under the skin and roast them in a really hot oven for 30-40 minnutes. There's more than enough fat in the skin to cook them well and it carries the seasoning flavours into the meat really nicely. The only problem I have then is resisting just chowing down on the gorgeously crisp skin (stupid calorie counting).

[cmlancas]

The only problem I have then is resisting just chowing down on the gorgeously crisp skin (stupid calorie counting).

This.  What I'd give for my childhood metabolism again.

[Numtini]

What you posted a picture of is a top sirloin -- the staple of any successful lower-to-middle-priced steakhouse.  This is an extremely common cut -- in fact, I think it was in the Publix (comparable to Stop and Shop) ad last week for $4.99/lb.

So weird. That's exactly what I remember, even the pricing, but honestly, I have not seen it in a supermarket for literally years. I have got to get out of this place.

I looked up bottom sirloin and bottom sirloin roast sliced into steaks looks like what I'm seeing as "shell sirloin."

[Dakine]

Just read through most of the thread, totally awesome and informative by the way, and had a question. When I go to Costco I see the really large beef cuts in the fridge and I feel as though it would be cost effective to just buy one of those and butcher it into steaks myself, but I have no clue which one to get. What would be your recommendation for one of those large cuts that would be best butchered down into smaller portions?

[cmlancas]

Just read through most of the thread, totally awesome and informative by the way, and had a question. When I go to Costco I see the really large beef cuts in the fridge and I feel as though it would be cost effective to just buy one of those and butcher it into steaks myself, but I have no clue which one to get. What would be your recommendation for one of those large cuts that would be best butchered down into smaller portions?

Welcome to f13, newposter.  Don't forget to stop by the rest of the forums as we're primarily a gaming site, and this is just one tiny corner of f13.

Unfortunately, "big hunk of meat" isn't very descriptive.  I need a little more information about what it is and what you want to use it for.

[MisterNoisy]

As to the chicken thing, I've never quite had the nerve to try butchering a full chicken, though I do regularly buy bone in thighs and bone them, as they're about half the price, which more than makes up for paying for the bone. Doesn't seem to be much of a point to grab a whole chicken when I really prefer the dark meat anyways.

Alton Brown covered breaking down a chicken.

[cmlancas]

Alton Brown covered breaking down a chicken.

Much appreciated!  Quite a bit of techniques are on YouTube, if anyone has a question about preparation.

[Sky]

Alton Brown covered breaking down a chicken.

First you've got to break it down mentally and physically, then you can start to build it up again.

I learned that in Chicken Boot Camp.

[Furiously]

I'm pretty sure that was the marines....

[Khaldun]

The pork bones is what confused me most. I mean, if I'm seeing shoulder roasts like boston butt there in front of me, tied up with twine, somebody took the bone out and I'm assuming it's not done offsite. I used to take out the aitch bone on whole hams every Friday for my boss where I cooked and boned both pork and lamb roasts (usually shoulder) at other times. I'm particularly thinking this when there's also the same cut with bone-in sitting in the same case. It's just kind of weird--I'd assumed that something had changed recently to make the bones spoken for. Beef I get though I do see the butchers at Whole Foods taking out some bones on big cuts now and again. The fish thing is even weirder still--I watched one of our fishmongers filleting snapper and bluefish in the morning one day recently and asked if I could buy the bones and they were like, "Um, nobody ever wants those, are you sure?" I just figured that was a cover since they do in fact sell frozen fish stock--but I can't believe that pints of weak fish stock are bringing them more money than bones by weight would bring them if they'd sell to customers. In the end, the fish aspect isn't that big a deal--I just buy whole snappers or other fish, fillet them for something and make a stock. The pork bones I've had to work around by buying jowl and shank for my ramen broth, along with some pork belly to go in the actual soup when it's done. But I'd rather have bones.

[Signe]

I used to make Italian sausage (with my mom) and used nothing but Boston Butts, salt, pepper and some spices depending if we were making hot or sweet.  It was lovely.  I also use skirt steak (which I can only seem to get at a butcher) or flank steak to make Braciole.  I think in terms of those cuts of meat, it's the way you cook them that brings out the flavour.  Very slow and baste them a lot.  They take a really long time to cook.  These were common in my family when I was growing up.  I made a brisket the other day for my flatmate who had bought meat hoping to have a roasted joint and not knowing what to get.  I hadn't made one of those in years and years.  It was too big and as tough as elephant skin and I had to cook it for nearly six hours but it was really nice when it was FINALLY done. 

[cmlancas]

The pork bones is what confused me most. I mean, if I'm seeing shoulder roasts like boston butt there in front of me, tied up with twine, somebody took the bone out and I'm assuming it's not done offsite. I used to take out the aitch bone on whole hams every Friday for my boss where I cooked and boned both pork and lamb roasts (usually shoulder) at other times. I'm particularly thinking this when there's also the same cut with bone-in sitting in the same case. It's just kind of weird--I'd assumed that something had changed recently to make the bones spoken for. Beef I get though I do see the butchers at Whole Foods taking out some bones on big cuts now and again. The fish thing is even weirder still--I watched one of our fishmongers filleting snapper and bluefish in the morning one day recently and asked if I could buy the bones and they were like, "Um, nobody ever wants those, are you sure?" I just figured that was a cover since they do in fact sell frozen fish stock--but I can't believe that pints of weak fish stock are bringing them more money than bones by weight would bring them if they'd sell to customers. In the end, the fish aspect isn't that big a deal--I just buy whole snappers or other fish, fillet them for something and make a stock. The pork bones I've had to work around by buying jowl and shank for my ramen broth, along with some pork belly to go in the actual soup when it's done. But I'd rather have bones.

So it sounds like both the fishmonger and the butcher are both failing to capitalize on a revenue stream because they're ignorant.   

Well, count yourself lucky that you get fish bones for free -- I'd have charged you $2 to $3 for a grouper head.   

[Khaldun]

Oh, it's not for free--if you buy a whole snapper or grouper, they're weighing the whole thing...

Course right now the best source of stock might be lobster shells, considering how ridiculously low the prices are because of the crazy glut this year. I got live lobster for $4.00/lb last week at a local Korean market.

[cmlancas]

It was too big and as tough as elephant skin and I had to cook it for nearly six hours but it was really nice when it was FINALLY done. 

Let it flow.  Let yourself go.  Slow and low, that is the tempo.

I love a well-cooked brisket.

[Bunk]

I really love chicken thighs as a cheap and easy protein source but really don't understand boneless, skinless thighs. I'll just season them, throw a bit of garlic and thyme under the skin and roast them in a really hot oven for 30-40 minnutes. There's more than enough fat in the skin to cook them well and it carries the seasoning flavours into the meat really nicely. The only problem I have then is resisting just chowing down on the gorgeously crisp skin (stupid calorie counting).

For me the answer is simple, I can go from fridge to plate with boneless/skinless thighs in about ten minutes in a variety of different preps. I only cook for myself, and during the week if I'm cooking a meal, I'm looking for something I can do in 20 -30 minutes start to finish. Just can't do that with bone in chicken.

Currently my meat staples for quick meals include:

 - boneless chicken thighs - fried or grilled in Moroccan spices,  or with onions/garlic in a curried fried rice, or with egg noodles and a mushroom soup sauce
 - boneless pork chops - pounded out and schnitzeled with panko
 - red snapper - usually panko breaded and fried

That's one reason I asked about cuts for beef stirfry, I need to work some more variety in to my quick meals.

[Signe]

Panko is the best thing that ever happened to me.  Well, maybe not the best but certainly quite nice.  Boneless, skinless chicken thighs are great in green Thai currey.  That's THAI curry not TIM Curry.   Just checkin'. 

[Lantyssa]

Tim Curry is scrumptious though.

[cmlancas]

I got live lobster for $4.00/lb last week at a local Korean market.

My jealousy can't be expressed in the confines of this forum.  They're at least $11.99/lb here.

[Sky]

I miss my great-grandpa and the Maine branch of the family. Always had free lobster on the table.

Thankfully WW2 happened and I'm not slaving away on a lobster boat today.

[cmlancas]

I miss my great-grandpa and the Maine branch of the family. Always had free lobster on the table.

Thankfully WW2 happened.

I might just put this into my sig.   

 

I kid, I kid.  Although, we have fantastic rock lobster down here.  And, anything that allows me to sing B-52s for no reason is a good thing.

[apocrypha]

Fantastic thread!

Unfortunately most of it isn't relevant to those of us who live in the UK. Our cuts of meat are very different and called different things. Butchery seems to be far more limited here in the UK - there are very few different cuts available, especially in supermarkets, and good butchers are a dying breed.

It's also very hard not to be a part of the problem yourself. I've found some decent butchers near me over the years but had to stop frequenting them because they're just too expensive. The supermarkets have utterly destroyed the competition with aggressive pricing, food prices in general have inflated massively over the last few years and I simply can't afford to pay the prices that decent butchers have to charge.

Still, we do the best we can. We try to buy organic/free range meat where possible, especially chicken, we've been learning how to use cheaper cuts of meat (beef skirt & shin, lamb neck and shank, pork belly, etc.) and we carefully plan our meals and shopping.

Anyway, still lots of good info here, thanks a lot :)

[Signe]

It's true.  I find it very hard to get a decent cut of meat in UK supermarkets.  Sometimes I wander up to the market in Bermondsey (my spell check insists that I meant to type Spider Monkey!) but by the time I drag my lazy ass out of bed and get there, good cuts are gone.  I will attempt to do better.  I have gone to supermarkets and picked up "top" cuts of beef and found them to be tough if I cook them at a normal temp for a rare joint.  I love saying joint.  For all sorts of reasons.  When I want rare beef these days, it's steak.  That way I don't have to worry about it.  I do buy a lot of chicken, though.  Roasters here actually have titties.  One thing I can't seem to find unless I buy a whole chicken and cut it up myself, is split breasts with skin and ribs.  They're awesome on the grill.