Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 28, 2024, 02:42:38 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
we're back, baby
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  News  |  Topic: Failgate London or “Why You Don't Outsource Important Services.” 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Failgate London or “Why You Don't Outsource Important Services.”  (Read 179310 times)
Ixxit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 238


Reply #70 on: November 19, 2007, 06:14:41 AM

You're reading it wrong.

But hey, if all the people that think this is about $150 want Ping-0 and Aria to work on another game, by all means, continue reading it wrong.

The way things are looking though,  don't you think maybe you should also say  that Flagship shouldn't work on another game.  I mean the sole  reason you are even talking to customer service IS that the game has serious problems and FS seems almost impotent in dealing with them. If the game was working as intented, your other points would be pretty much moot.

I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate.
Falconeer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11124

a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer born and living in the wrong country


WWW
Reply #71 on: November 19, 2007, 06:15:05 AM

If I can feel bad for my 9.99 iuros wasted on one month of subscritpion (and I do), I could understand Schild's rage about 150$.

I *could*. Because this is not about the money at all.

Me, I wasn't in the beta and I am pretty pissed about the money too. So far it's like I paid 9.99 for the Fawkes Flameguards. Didn't know HGL had RMT in it.

Oban
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4662


Reply #72 on: November 19, 2007, 06:28:18 AM

FSS sold the operating rights to HGL in China for a ridiculous amount of money a year ago. I'm remembering it to be around US$40 million but I would have to dig up my notebook to find the exact figure.


Not quite...

The9 Goes To Hellgate For New Online Game In China

May 29, 2006
The9 (NCTY) has entered into an agreement with HanbitSoft for an exclusive license to operate the "Hellgate: London" game.


Hellgate: London is an action role-playing game, and the term of the license is three years from the date of commercial launch in mainland China.

Alex Kim, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of HanbitSoft, Inc., said: "It is very exciting to join hands with China's leading game operator The9 to bring Hellgate: London to the mainland China online game market. I truly believe that Hellgate: London's great content and quality, together with The9's strong operating capabilities will eventually lead this game to a huge success in China. HanbitSoft, Inc., of course, will provide our full-scale support."

Under the agreement, The9 has agreed to pay US$5 million in license fees as well as guaranteed royalties equal to the greater of 21% of the retail value of the prepaid game cards produced for use or a total of US$30 million over the 3-year license period.

Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
Tige
Terracotta Army
Posts: 273


Reply #73 on: November 19, 2007, 06:50:31 AM

Under the agreement, The9 has agreed to pay US$5 million in license fees as well as guaranteed royalties equal to the greater of 21% of the retail value of the prepaid game cards produced for use or a total of US$30 million over the 3-year license period.

Insert witty Monty Python sound clip about the problems inherent in the system.

Human nature Roper has left building and what was there to stop him.  Receive check for his cut, get the game out and leave whatever mess there is to clean up to someone who cares..or not.  Nothing unique or new here.  The game will be, arguably already is, successful for it's kind.  Gamers will bitch, some will leave, some move on to the new shiney to repeat the same dysfunctional cycle.  Lemmings are we.   
shiznitz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4268

the plural of mangina


Reply #74 on: November 19, 2007, 07:17:38 AM

Late to this thread and the article, but good piece schild.

Oh, and anyone who buys a "lifetime" anything for a game deserves the inevitable kick in the junk. Especially before launch. Although I cannot argue that your expectation of a refund is absurd, I have no sympathy. You choked on the hype. Deal.

I have never played WoW.
Oban
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4662


Reply #75 on: November 19, 2007, 07:22:02 AM


...
Human nature Roper has left building and what was there to stop him.  Receive check for his cut, get the game out and leave whatever mess there is to clean up to someone who cares..or not. ...

Except it is not FSS that receives the funds.  HanbitSoft, a Korean company, gets money for a localized version they are producing.

Joy.

Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
slog
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8232


Reply #76 on: November 19, 2007, 07:43:45 AM

You're reading it wrong.

But hey, if all the people that think this is about $150 want Ping-0 and Aria to work on another game, by all means, continue reading it wrong.

I guess I don't get it then. 

Is the point "Don't pay for lifetime subs before you actually know what you are getting?"  All I can say to that is "Thanks, I know"

 


Friends don't let Friends vote for Boomers
CmdrSlack
Contributor
Posts: 4388


WWW
Reply #77 on: November 19, 2007, 07:48:16 AM

Speaking as a lawyer, the question becomes did they "substantially perform." If they gave you "most" of what you bargained for and didnt leave out anything essential, then your contract should stand. You do have a leg to stand on as this is a goods contract (technically hybrid goods and services) that you didnt get exactly what you were promised. The UCC gives you a reasonable time to reject what you've already accepted.

Uh, speaking as a lawyer with experience in this area, you're wrong. Substantial performance doesn't really apply with software licenses, since the entire point is, you know, a license to use the software. TOS/EULA agreements almost never make promises on the part of the software owner -- almost everything is a promise on the part of the end user.

The case law on EULAs is rather convoluted, but there's very little mention of the UCC and R2d of Contracts arguments you've used. Why?  Because "reasonable time to reject after acceptance" is, IIRC, only between merchants and because a software license is not a "goods" contract. The R2d "substantial performance" doesn't apply because the terms of the contract don't make performance on the part of the game company anything other than, "We'll let you connect to our servers until we don't feel like it anymore." Software licenses ARE hybrid goods/services contracts, but courts tend to treat them as their own animal.

Most EULAs/TOSes are biased in favor of the developer. There has been SOME headway made using unconscionability, but that's been on a clause-by-clause basis. Since many developers are lazy and simply copy and paste other EULAs to generate theirs, it's possible that one bad clause would make others bad. The problem is that most of these agreements also provide for modification at any time, so yeah, not so much.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #78 on: November 19, 2007, 07:49:50 AM

Quote
Is the point "Don't pay for lifetime subs before you actually know what you are getting?"

No. You're failing pretty hard here. My key interest ONCE AGAIN, is to show how bad the CSR and Billing was. If this was about the game, I would've talked about the KEY GAMEPLAY problems more. But I didn't. In fact, my discussion about the game itself short of the contents of the ticket to support was kept to a minimum.
slog
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8232


Reply #79 on: November 19, 2007, 07:56:39 AM

Quote
Is the point "Don't pay for lifetime subs before you actually know what you are getting?"

No. You're failing pretty hard here. My key interest ONCE AGAIN, is to show how bad the CSR and Billing was. If this was about the game, I would've talked about the KEY GAMEPLAY problems more. But I didn't. In fact, my discussion about the game itself short of the contents of the ticket to support was kept to a minimum.

I acknowledge that I'm failing here (it's not the first time)

So the point is: Customer service in MMO's sucks.  Especially when you give them all the money upfront, as they have no incentive whatsoever to do anything since you can't get a refund.

Yea, I knew that too...

Friends don't let Friends vote for Boomers
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 23611


Reply #80 on: November 19, 2007, 08:10:46 AM

...
Human nature Roper has left building and what was there to stop him.  Receive check for his cut, get the game out and leave whatever mess there is to clean up to someone who cares..or not. ...
Except it is not FSS that receives the funds.  HanbitSoft, a Korean company, gets money for a localized version they are producing.

Joy.
Hmm...that doesn't sound right. I guess I need to do some digging.
taolurker
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1460


Reply #81 on: November 19, 2007, 08:23:59 AM

Add me to the people who don't "get it" either, because obviously prior to your expose about how poorly the CS handled this and the staff responses you were trying to get a refund, weren't you Schild? If this wasn't about your money, then what actually prompted this to story to begin in the first place?

Why you felt upset enough to demand a refund, compose even one email to them, or even bother starting the "CS fail" has nothing to do with this article, though,  right?

Either way, though, you paid $150 because of the "possibilities", and the possibility of you being robbed never even entered your mind, but I'm glad maybe you're finally see that. I knew this game was filled with too many problems to even spend on the retail box, but this isn't really about you wanting a refund, it's about how upset you are with their decisions and CS (which still seems like you're fanboyishly fellating this game).

Honestly, you should've been writing an article about how some people didn't even pay for the game and are still playing it (beta FTW!!), how this is the first game to ever freely admit customers are paying to beta (since the beta is still ongoing) and how never in the MMO history has a beta extended beyond the release of a game. Now that's an article (and one I may eventually write)!!


I used to write for extinct gaming sites
details available here (unused blog about page)
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #82 on: November 19, 2007, 08:29:34 AM

Quote
Honestly, you should've been writing an article about how some people didn't even pay for the game and are still playing it (beta FTW!!), how this is the first game to ever freely admit customers are paying to beta (since the beta is still ongoing) and how never in the MMO history has a beta extended beyond the release of a game. Now that's an article (and one I may eventually write)!!

It would be a short article. That's pretty much everything there is to say about.

Quote
then what actually prompted this to story to begin in the first place?

Broken english and the responses not making any sense.
Slayerik
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4868

Victim: Sirius Maximus


Reply #83 on: November 19, 2007, 08:29:59 AM

Quote
Is the point "Don't pay for lifetime subs before you actually know what you are getting?"

No. You're failing pretty hard here. My key interest ONCE AGAIN, is to show how bad the CSR and Billing was. If this was about the game, I would've talked about the KEY GAMEPLAY problems more. But I didn't. In fact, my discussion about the game itself short of the contents of the ticket to support was kept to a minimum.

If the game didn't fail then you would be worried about CS / billing issues. You would have never have sent those requests. Sounds like a whole failure cascade to me. Starting at the point where you purchased a lifetime sub.  evil

"I have more qualifications than Jesus and earn more than this whole board put together.  My ego is huge and my modesty non-existant." -Ironwood
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #84 on: November 19, 2007, 08:37:28 AM

The request was originally submitted due to two reasons:

1. Taking away reasons to subscribe after people did subscribe (character slots).
2. Not posting about the memory leak.

Neither of these are gameplay issues (well the memory leaks keeps me from playing, but it's not a "gameplay" issue). As I've said, things get fixed, I would've resubbed.
Oban
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4662


Reply #85 on: November 19, 2007, 08:46:54 AM

Broken english and the responses not making any sense.



Palin 2012 : Let's go out with a bang!
Falconeer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11124

a polyamorous pansexual genderqueer born and living in the wrong country


WWW
Reply #86 on: November 19, 2007, 09:02:37 AM

I could be wrong but I am under the impression that this is one of the cases where those with issues are definitely the more (if not the only one) vocals about the game.
I am apparently one of the few who can play without a single glitch and stay assured that I won't post anywhere about how the game sucks nor the opposite. Are we that "few"? Many others stated here that they are playing smoothly and I am afraid that this could be why Flagship is taking it easy.
They could be underestimating the problem given, for example, how many complaints they received compared to box sales.

Of course I have no idea about actual numbers, but seriously... everyone keeps saying how terrible the game is and so on while well, to me and many others it plays ok. That's why I subscribed (not lifetime), cause it's ready and not beta for me. Oh and lotsa fun.
Yes, I could use a shared vault and I had a (one) bugged quest. Other than that, it's great.

So, how do a software house weigh complaints vs. satisfied customers?

P.S: Not justifying FFS at all. If one customer says he/she can't play you have to fix it ASAP, let alone thousands. Just wondering how "not ready" the game is. Cause it looks definitely ready to some. And maybe that misled and it is still misleading who's in charge of fixing.

Bunk
Contributor
Posts: 5828

Operating Thetan One


Reply #87 on: November 19, 2007, 09:09:58 AM


Correction: FSS was well funded. I somehow doubt that the chequebooks will remain open for them much longer. I wonder how many subscribers they'll actually keep past the first couple of months?

I guess we know now why Blizzard hasn't announced Diablo 3 yet: There was no need for them to run a spoiler campaign against HG:L - just wait for events to take their course.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Dude, you severely underestimate the power of the average gamer to take it up the ass. If a game like AO can survive the fantastic shitstorm of their launch, anything can survive. There are no doubt issues, but for the most part people can play the game and get their shinies. That's all that really matters to the majority.

Most people will never know that their Customer Service is shitty, because most people will never bother trying to reach it.

Also, looking at the patch notes I see the following:
Fixed a known issue with the inventory user interface that caused the client to lock up.
Fixed known issues which occasionally prevented characters from being able to load or switch instances.

Those are the two main bugs that were causing me issues. I've only actually had it crash to the memory leak twice. Hopefully that gets fixed, but I can live with it for now.

It's a fun game. They still have my subscription.

"Welcome to the internet, pussy." - VDL
"I have retard strength." - Schild
shiznitz
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4268

the plural of mangina


Reply #88 on: November 19, 2007, 10:48:28 AM

Add me to the people who don't "get it" either, because obviously prior to your expose about how poorly the CS handled this and the staff responses you were trying to get a refund, weren't you Schild? If this wasn't about your money, then what actually prompted this to story to begin in the first place?

Why you felt upset enough to demand a refund, compose even one email to them, or even bother starting the "CS fail" has nothing to do with this article, though,  right?

Either way, though, you paid $150 because of the "possibilities", and the possibility of you being robbed never even entered your mind, but I'm glad maybe you're finally see that. I knew this game was filled with too many problems to even spend on the retail box, but this isn't really about you wanting a refund, it's about how upset you are with their decisions and CS (which still seems like you're fanboyishly fellating this game).

Honestly, you should've been writing an article about how some people didn't even pay for the game and are still playing it (beta FTW!!), how this is the first game to ever freely admit customers are paying to beta (since the beta is still ongoing) and how never in the MMO history has a beta extended beyond the release of a game. Now that's an article (and one I may eventually write)!!


The refund prompted him to contact the company in the first place, yes, but the puppet show that followed is what is newsworthy.

schild would not have written a "poor little me I got fucked out of $150" for the frontpage because he knows we all would have laughed and pointed while throwing huge bricks of "I told you so" at him.

I have never played WoW.
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #89 on: November 19, 2007, 11:03:07 AM

Wait. I'm not following HL news, so I seemed to have missed something. Big.

Hellgate was released to retail in beta? What the fuck? And people bought it?

As for schild's escapade with CS, well, that's how CS works in my experience. Rare is the company that can communicate and serve the customer. The vast majority of experiences I've had with CS have been as bad as schild's...but usually worse.

Hell, Scott H had to step in, the /senior producer/, to get my issue in EQ2 taken care of. Then there's evga sending me the wrong version of my gpu, used to boot, and then after I send it back they deny I sent it back, deny I have my old card, etc...finally had to go to newegg to get that taken care of, and /newegg/ still required a phone call because their online support was bungling things so badly. I won't even get into Time-Warner.

Sorry, Not News.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #90 on: November 19, 2007, 11:04:48 AM

Quote
Sorry, Not News.

To you. I can honestly say that I can not remember an actual bad CS experience of any value with any MMOG company before.
Riggswolfe
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8024


Reply #91 on: November 19, 2007, 11:43:42 AM

Quote
Sorry, Not News.

To you. I can honestly say that I can not remember an actual bad CS experience of any value with any MMOG company before.

Are you sure you play as many MMOs as you say you do? I can't think of an actual good CS experience of any value with any MMOG company before.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #92 on: November 19, 2007, 11:52:53 AM

Quote
Sorry, Not News.

To you. I can honestly say that I can not remember an actual bad CS experience of any value with any MMOG company before.
Are you sure you play as many MMOs as you say you do? I can't think of an actual good CS experience of any value with any MMOG company before.
I've only ever asked for X to be replaced and Help, I'm stuck. So, YMMV.
Reg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5270


Reply #93 on: November 19, 2007, 12:00:55 PM

Quote
Strike 2.

He misspelled 'canceled' twice. In official correspondance. Considering the only grades are 'A' and 'Fail Hard,' well, he failed hard. Although the name Jovi is weird, I didn't assume he was a foreigner. I simply thought he was a moron who had a number of responses he had to get through to keep his job. So I gave him the benefit of the doubt and wrote back. Bolded again, for your pleasure:

If this really was all about bad customer service and not about unhappiness over being refused a refund then the whole email exchange should have stopped right here because "cancelled" is a perfectly legitimate spelling of "canceled" and since that was the great crime that caused poor GM Jovi to "fail hard" it seems there's been a terrible miscarriage of justice.

But really, anyone who seriously expects perfect spelling and grammar from a minimum wage customer service bot is so wildly naive that I'd expect him to make other mistakes - like buying lifetime subscriptions to flavour of the month MMORPGs for which he's developed a transient enthusiasm.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #94 on: November 19, 2007, 12:08:31 PM

They both gave me canned answers with different spelling and grammatical errors. That says a lot more about the standards at which they operate than I cared to know.
dusematic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2250

Diablo 3's Number One Fan


Reply #95 on: November 19, 2007, 12:12:25 PM

I mean, I feel empathetic with your plight Schild.  But it strikes me as naive to believe that you would get a refund for a lifetime subscription plan.  The very essence of the lifetime subscription is that they get a guaranteed one shot payment.  As far as the adhesion contract goes, you should be very familiar with them.  It's what you've signed up for in essentially every bit of online commerce you've ever engaged in.  The fairness to consumers is certainly dubious, but this is hardly isolated to Flagship.  Also, making fun of the grammar of the CSR dudes?  I spotted numerous grammatical errors in your letters to them, and I won't even get into you asking to have one of the dudes fired. 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 12:15:48 PM by dusematic »
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #96 on: November 19, 2007, 12:17:43 PM

Also, making fun of the grammar of the CSR dudes?  I spotted numerous grammatical errors in your posts, and I won't even get into you asking to have one of the dudes fired.

Not getting paid. Not providing official correspondence with customers. And 99.9% of my grammatical errors are intentional. But comparing my posts to CSR Name From A Hat Providing Support for an Online Game is just silly.
dusematic
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2250

Diablo 3's Number One Fan


Reply #97 on: November 19, 2007, 12:25:59 PM

What's silly is you getting that pissed about it, for aforementioned reasons that: 1) "cancelled" and "canceled" are both valid spellings, and 2) these people are minimum wage drones

I just feel like you paid $200 for a game you had never played and now, having realized this was a poor decision, are lashing out at anyone and everything.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #98 on: November 19, 2007, 12:30:26 PM

Did you even read the title of the article? It's about outsourcing vital services. It's not about my 150 bucks. ItZs about the fact that these people they've ousourced to run a real piece of shit CS house and the company handling the billing is atrocious. Please though, keep making it about the money. That way Aria and Ping-0 might get more gigs.
bhodi
Moderator
Posts: 6817

No lie.


Reply #99 on: November 19, 2007, 12:33:04 PM

But when they can get you to pay $150 up front, there's no need for good CSR or billing.
Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117

I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.


Reply #100 on: November 19, 2007, 12:59:19 PM

Did you even read the title of the article? It's about outsourcing vital services. It's not about my 150 bucks. ItZs about the fact that these people they've ousourced to run a real piece of shit CS house and the company handling the billing is atrocious. Please though, keep making it about the money. That way Aria and Ping-0 might get more gigs.
Yes, they should have had inhouse piece of shit CS and atrocious billing.

Shit, the UK retail site I was trying to get the Witcher through took 2 weeks to reply to my email after I got an error on their checkout form. Seriously, bad CS is not just industry standard, it's the standard.

I'm still trying to understand why this particular case is news-worthy.
schild
Administrator
Posts: 60345


WWW
Reply #101 on: November 19, 2007, 01:03:52 PM

Because a company with as much funding as Flagship having CS support worse than anything I've ever encountered is appalling.

See, a little background. I work at GoDaddy. And while you may not like us, may not agree with our practices, we're all english speaking Americans who provide support as best we can. Well, some of us do. Now, granted, Bhodi is on the right track as Flagship as nothing left to sell me, but there's still no excuse. Ironically, one of the things subscribers were supposed to get was 24/7 support for the game, which uhmmmm, you really don't get. There's no in-game CSRs or anything like that. Just a trouble ticket system and I'm pretty sure you don't need to be a subscriber to use them.
stu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1891


Reply #102 on: November 19, 2007, 01:12:06 PM

Poor CS may be a common thing, but that doesn't make it alright. Companies have a responsibility to the people who purchase their products and what Schild wrote presents their complete lack of professionalism and ability to do anything about his gripe. Good CS needs to be action oriented, not the opposite. Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but to label his stance as being naive is naive.

Dear Diary,
Jackpot!
slog
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8232


Reply #103 on: November 19, 2007, 01:36:33 PM

"Early adopter gets hosed when he finds out game company didn't deliver what they promised and can't get his money back"


Friends don't let Friends vote for Boomers
Ixxit
Terracotta Army
Posts: 238


Reply #104 on: November 19, 2007, 01:41:40 PM

Because a company with as much funding as Flagship having CS support worse than anything I've ever encountered is appalling.

I know you are commenting on customer service here, but what I want to no is why did a company with as much funding as Flagship released what  amounts to a beta game on to a paying public. The billing, the customer service problems are really  insignificant when you hold them up to the reasons for your initial contact with them.

Just curious, if you are going to write a scathing article about the game itself, because that is what the real problem is.  Fun or not.

I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate.
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 ... 8 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  News  |  Topic: Failgate London or “Why You Don't Outsource Important Services.”  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC