Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Valmorian]

Plus the market has changed dramatically. If CoH/V launched today it'd be crucified. Hell, even for being a classic, it's player base has been consistently shrinking for a long while now.

I still re-sub to CoH once in a while, and actually enjoy it for a couple of weeks (or more, depending on how much I play).
I re-subbed to Champions Online recently, logged in, and regretted it in 5 minutes.

[UnSub]

CO? Don't see it.

A really quick and incomplete list:

 - Crafting and PvP at launch.
 - Large zones over smaller zones with instancing.
 - Even more flexible character costume system and powers system.
 - No fixed 'roles' / classes.
 - More powers and power options.
 - Stats and gear added.
 - More 'heroic' actions characters can do / take part in.

There are others, but I see a number of areas where Cryptic has considered the criticism of their earlier title and tried to rectify it. What they really needed was more time to polish up these areas, but that wasn't done prior to launch.

[Malakili]

[
 - No fixed 'roles' / classes.
 

This is the big one for me, honestly.  If was just another class based MMO, I would have dismissed it entirely from the beginning. 

[Lantyssa]

A really quick and incomplete list:

 - Crafting and PvP at launch.
 - Large zones over smaller zones with instancing.
 - Even more flexible character costume system and powers system.
 - No fixed 'roles' / classes.
 - More powers and power options.
 - Stats and gear added.
 - More 'heroic' actions characters can do / take part in.

Initially:
- (crafting) With crazy requirements
- (zones) And level 30 villains next to level 5 ones
- (powers) Granted on power flexibility; Definitely NOT more flexible on female costume options
- (rolls) A good goal
- (stats/gear) Total confusion and useless junk; Type often didn't fit desired stats
- (heroism) Never felt more heroic

CoH scrapped the idea of open powersets and archtypes because they found it too hard to balance.  As things stood at launch, I don't think CO figured out how to overcome those obstacles, especially since they decided to balance to the min/maxers rather than those interested in making their cool idea for a hero into an avatar.

[climbjtree]

Ok.

1. I downloaded the trial via Steam.

2. Created a character, realized I like CoH's creator better.

3. Played through the trial and never got to see a travel power.

3. I deleted the game. It sucked.

I'd definitely be willing to give it a chance if the gameplay significantly improved after the end of the trial. Mainly because the swinging travel power looks awesome. Anyone actively play?

[Malakili]

Ok.

1. I downloaded the trial via Steam.

2. Created a character, realized I like CoH's creator better.

3. Played through the trial and never got to see a travel power.

3. I deleted the game. It sucked.

I'd definitely be willing to give it a chance if the gameplay significantly improved after the end of the trial. Mainly because the swinging travel power looks awesome. Anyone actively play?

Depends about what you thought was bad about the demo/trial.  I mean, the basic power builder + other abilities gameplay mechanic is base of the combat system, so that doesn't change much.  I always found the game was MUCH more fun once I got a nice AoE power.   Swinging is neat. 

[Khaldun]

CO? Don't see it.

A really quick and incomplete list:

 - Crafting and PvP at launch.
 - Large zones over smaller zones with instancing.
 - Even more flexible character costume system and powers system.
 - No fixed 'roles' / classes.
 - More powers and power options.
 - Stats and gear added.
 - More 'heroic' actions characters can do / take part in.

1. Terrible crafting. Broken PvP.
2. The excessive instancing deprived the game of any social connections whatsoever.
3. The flexibility of the character creation system was just +++ of what CoH/CoV offered. In any event, one thing no one criticized CoH/CoV for was lack of customization.
4. Same for more power options.
5. Stats which made ambiguous sense, gear which was confusing.
6. The heroic thing was *precisely* what many CO players complained about in the pre-launch nerf. I don't see even the remotest sense in which they learned that lesson at a fundamental level.

[climbjtree]

Depends about what you thought was bad about the demo/trial.  I mean, the basic power builder + other abilities gameplay mechanic is base of the combat system, so that doesn't change much.  I always found the game was MUCH more fun once I got a nice AoE power.   Swinging is neat. 

Maybe it was the powers I had that really turned me off to it. I took gadgeteering and had a sort of ray gun and I just stood next to an alien and shot point blank. It just didn't seem fitting. Do other sets look better?

Games like that might benefit from a Matrix Online style of melee combat, where the two models go through matching animations.

[Malakili]

Depends about what you thought was bad about the demo/trial.  I mean, the basic power builder + other abilities gameplay mechanic is base of the combat system, so that doesn't change much.  I always found the game was MUCH more fun once I got a nice AoE power.   Swinging is neat. 

Maybe it was the powers I had that really turned me off to it. I took gadgeteering and had a sort of ray gun and I just stood next to an alien and shot point blank. It just didn't seem fitting. Do other sets look better?

Games like that might benefit from a Matrix Online style of melee combat, where the two models go through matching animations.

I never used Gadgeteering, so I can't really comment on it myself.  There are a lot of sets that do look cool in my opinion though, including but not limited to: Electricity, Munitions, Might (I really like the LOOK of might, but I'm not too keen on how it actually plays, heh),  and Force.  Those are the ones I have experience with that I liked it.  The only one I personally haven't liked all that much is Celestial (in terms of animations).

The game is probably worth a month if you can the box real cheap, if for no other reason than to just can't out of the millenium city crisis zone and see if you like the actual game.   If you have to pay more than 20 bucks though, probably not worth it.

[Minvaren]

So this last weekend was the free weekend.

So I reactivated for it, downloaded the client again, patched the client again...

...played 5 minutes and went back to WoW.   

[Shatter]

So this last weekend was the free weekend.

So I reactivated for it, downloaded the client again, patched the client again...

...played 5 minutes and went back to WoW.   

No one can listen to what you said since you didnt put in at least 50 hours of gametime, oh wait nm thats Darkfalls excuse. 

[Malakili]

So this last weekend was the free weekend.

So I reactivated for it, downloaded the client again, patched the client again...

...played 5 minutes and went back to WoW.   

No one can listen to what you said since you didnt put in at least 50 hours of gametime, oh wait nm thats Darkfalls excuse. 

To be fair, there are some games that get good only after you've played them for a while.  The question is whether or not its worth playing to get to the point.  Either way, Champions isn't really one of those titles, so it doesn't really matter.

[Nebu]

...played 5 minutes and went back to WoW.   

If you want something WoW-like, WoW is the best choice by a long shot.  If you want an MMO that is decidedly not WoW-like, CoH or CO aren't bad choices... though I much prefer the former. 

[Sky]

For people who don't like the game, this is a pretty active thread.

[Malakili]

For people who don't like the game, this is a pretty active thread.

I actually don't think the game is quite as horrible as I sometimes make it out to be really.  The major problem is that they just don't have enough stuff to do in the game.  I love super heroes, I love the character creator, the combat while a little shallow is entertaining, I even like the comic book looking graphics that some people find hard to look at.  What I don't like is that I feel like I am just an errand boy for an ever growing list of NPCs.  Too much questing, not enough...everything else.  No super group HQs, no interesting PvP, public quests are a waste of time, crafting is pretty pointless outside of consumables.  Champions is a decent super hero game, it just isn't a very good MMO.

EDIT: Full disclosure: I'm not playing any other MMOs, so I started playing this again for the hell of it, spurred on by Vibora Bay.    Its fun to beat up bad guys, and thats about it.  I'll probably stick around til I max out my current character, then stop again until something interesting happens.   *shrugs*

[Minvaren]

...played 5 minutes and went back to WoW.   

If you want something WoW-like, WoW is the best choice by a long shot.  If you want an MMO that is decidedly not WoW-like, CoH or CO aren't bad choices... though I much prefer the former. 

Agreed x2.  I was more curious to see if my initial impressions of the game had changed in 2 months - not really.  Although getting sound working was easier the second time around.

[Soln]

How on earth do you sell stuff from your inventory?

And if an item tooltip says, for example, "Arms" and you're into "Mysticism" can you still use it?  Or should you?

edit: appalling grammar correction

[Malakili]

How on earth do you sell stuff from your inventory?

And if an item tooltip says, for example, "Arms" and your into "Mysticism" can you still use it?  Or should you?

When you are at a vendor, select the sell tab.  Then you can sell from the sell window, or right click things on your inventory. 

The type of item (Arms, Mysticism, Science) doesn't matter insofar as talking about what gear you should wear/use.  instead, it matters for researching items.  If you are, for instance a Mysticism crafter, any item that is of the type Mysticism can be broken down (researched), from the research tab of a Mysticism table (found near Mysticism trainers).  Researching an item destroys it (so don't research items you want to use), but gives you components that you can use to craft other things, and can give you skill ups in your crafting as well.

[Kageru]

Which leads to the ridiculous situation that if you are an arms character then your gear is all mystical bangles of blargh. You get the same power regardless but items of your "theme" are the only ones with a secondary value for crafting. Though crafting was fairly worthless in beta, and probably still is. That said I do remember my female character finding "awesome torpedoes" as a chest item and finding that mildly amusing.

[Malakili]

Which leads to the ridiculous situation that if you are an arms character then your gear is all mystical bangles of blargh. You get the same power regardless but items of your "theme" are the only ones with a secondary value for crafting. Though crafting was fairly worthless in beta, and probably still is. That said I do remember my female character finding "awesome torpedoes" as a chest item and finding that mildly amusing.

Luckily, gear has no bearing on how your character looks and is really just a set of items that increases your stats.  Crafting is still useless outside of consumables, and when you are level 40/maxed out you can craft travel powers or something I frankly have no idea how that works.

[Bandit]

Which leads to the ridiculous situation that if you are an arms character then your gear is all mystical bangles of blargh. You get the same power regardless but items of your "theme" are the only ones with a secondary value for crafting. Though crafting was fairly worthless in beta, and probably still is. That said I do remember my female character finding "awesome torpedoes" as a chest item and finding that mildly amusing.

Luckily, gear has no bearing on how your character looks and is really just a set of items that increases your stats.  Crafting is still useless outside of consumables, and when you are level 40/maxed out you can craft travel powers or something I frankly have no idea how that works.

I wouldn't bother with crafted travel powers.  The grind would make a korean blush. I have been playing since launch on mostly one character and I am no where close to crafting the tier 3 version travel power (I haven't even finished tier 1 - just the 3 tier recipes).  Crafting in general is pretty grindy, including the newer craftable action figures.  There are a few useful consumables....rez, summoning devices, force fields.  It is unfortunate, as Kageru mentioned, that crafting professions don't make any sense thematically as well.

I will say though, Vibora Bay is excellent.  Without a doubt the best Zone/Storyline in the game.  It's too bad that you need to get to 35 to experience it, but it is fine work.  

[UnSub]

I appreciate that Cryptic tried a slightly different tack with crafting - it is all about destroying the drops you get to boost your skill.

However, there isn't much point to crafting in a game like ChampO. It's just a sideline.

The gear is split up like that in order for 1) ChampO to have gear and 2) for players to possibly choose more thematic gear options. Few players care, but the ones who were vocal on the beta forums really, really wanted that.

Oh, and one of the gear items that appeared in ChampO's beta was 'Reinforced Bowels'. WTF are you fighting if you need your bowels reinforced?

[Soln]

if this game were any more casual I'd be asleep. That said, it's filling a gap nicely.  Thanks for feedback.

[UnSub]

Bill Roper becomes Cryptic's Chief Creative Officer, replacing Jack Emmert who becomes Cryptic's Chief Operations Officer.

Don't know what these kind of titles mean specifically.

[Sky]

The gear is split up like that in order for 1) ChampO to have gear and 2) for players to possibly choose more thematic gear options. Few players care, but the ones who were vocal on the beta forums really, really wanted that.

Oh, and one of the gear items that appeared in ChampO's beta was 'Reinforced Bowels'. WTF are you fighting if you need your bowels reinforced?

The best gear in my limited experience was the power replace stuff. Loved getting a new gun or adding a secondary effect to a power. Too bad it could only add to limited powers (those with a 3d model to replace), and only one of my guys had them.

Bowel reinforcement was essential when fighting the arch-villain Brown Noise.

[Murgos]

Bill Roper becomes Cryptic's Chief Creative Officer, replacing Jack Emmert who becomes Cryptic's Chief Operations Officer.

Don't know what these kind of titles mean specifically.

Sounds to me like Jack is going to focus more on running the business while Roper takes more responsibility for future projects.

[Soln]

welp, guess I lasted 6 days?

not a great "new player" experience.  You really need to have finished CoX to play this game I think.

[Ollie]

True, CO does a pretty poor job of welcoming the uninitiated to the fold. The UI, while marginally better than at launch, is still astonishingly unintuitive, and some of the tool tips really put the cryptic in... well, Cryptic.

Unless a new player is willing to do a bit of forum digging on different power builds, the risk of severe gimpage is high. Plus, to the best of my knowledge the game still isn't too kind on purely thematic characters that stay within one powerset.

[Malakili]

True, CO does a pretty poor job of welcoming the uninitiated to the fold. The UI, while marginally better than at launch, is still astonishingly unintuitive, and some of the tool tips really put the cryptic in... well, Cryptic.

Unless a new player is willing to do a bit of forum digging on different power builds, the risk of severe gimpage is high. Plus, to the best of my knowledge the game still isn't too kind on purely thematic characters that stay within one powerset.

Its definitely a lot better than it used to be in that regard, but it still leaves a lot to be desired.  You really do need to read through all the info screens in the tutorial (the optional ones) to have a good idea of the game mechanics.  Stuff like passive defensive/offensive skills, which are arguably the most important, and definitely one of the most important aspects of how well a character will do are still pretty unintuitive.   I always stay with just my first two powers and then get an upgrade block power, a passive power, and then an AoE.  Thats the real core of any successful character in my opinion, and by then you are level 14 or so.

[Typhon]

I always stay with just my first two powers and then get an upgrade block power, a passive power, and then an AoE.  Thats the real core of any successful character in my opinion, and by then you are level 14 or so.

I think this is good advice, although I'd say that the order in which you take the block upgrade, defensive passive and AoE are flexible.  For instance, if the defensive passive that you plan on taking is regen, you would want to take that first, and then you can hold off on the block upgrade till last.

I haven't played lately (friends talked me into resubbing to wow,... again), so I'm not sure how competitive the re-worked passives are compared to regen.

[Soln]

FWIW the game seemed to fall off a cliff for me at 13.  It was fine in the newb zone (CDN North) , but then some of herald quests sent me to MCity where the difficulty level of the new quests were 14 and 15.  The chained 2-4 mobs that are everywhere just kept kicking my ass too much.  I dunno, it just felt unbalanced.   I was fine in the newb zone, then I moved here and the resists seemed different?  It feels like Cryptic throws a bunch of stuff at you after the starter zone and expects you to grok the whole of MCity.

But my expectations for an MMO are much higher these days.  As a new player I want the option to go on rails if I want to.  I'm not reading player guides or hunting through forums.  All ChampO has to do is allow you to survive and be clear about why you should keep looking forward to your next power/talent.  I didn't get that.

[Ollie]

But my expectations for an MMO are much higher these days.  As a new player I want the option to go on rails if I want to.  I'm not reading player guides or hunting through forums.  All ChampO has to do is allow you to survive and be clear about why you should keep looking forward to your next power/talent.  I didn't get that.

Most new MMOGs are feeling the effects of heightened customer expectations, CO among them. Nowadays players will look past something as major as a poorly flowing levelling progression only if some other game features really stand out in a positive way. I certainly recognise the same unforgiving tendency in myself, not to mention that I get extra pissy if marketing does a shoddy job of managing customer expectations pre-launch. But that's another story.

In the context of Soln's six-day escapade, it seems CO still has ways to go in making the game mechanics rewarding, transparent and intuitive enough so that even the uninitiated can jump in and feel like they can make reasonable headway without resorting to forum-monkeying.
 
My personal pet peeve was the ridiculously opaque synergy between superstats and specific offensive and defensive powers. I must have spent countless boring hours at the Powerhouse reading vague tooltips and crosschecking that I picked the right damage scaling stats for the build that I was going for. Might be part of the fun for some, but it definitely wasn't for me. Especially since it felt like the tooltips were actively trying to punch me in the face.

[Tannhauser]

Why in the world does anyone have higher expectations for MMO's?  MMO's peaked back in 2004.  It won't peak again until Blizzard releases another one.

[Ollie]

Seething sarcasm noted, though it's not like your apathy is utterly unfounded. Specific niche titles aside, no one else seems to be able to deliver the complete package. The customer base keeps evolving, though, even if the games do not. The post-WoW marketplace has given rise to two neat movie title-esque trends: The Rise of the Casuals and the Revenge of the Enthusiasts. Turns out, both groups like polish. If you can't deliver that on day one, strap on your parachute come the end of the first 30 days.

Back on topic, I doubt anyone was high enough to seriously expect a world-class performance from Cryptic. We're just harping on the few specific areas where CO fails to even give it the old college try, namely the new player experience and intuitive character building.

[Ratman_tf]

Have I posted that the questgrind is what killed CO for me? At this point, after leaving the noob zone, I'd rather do anything than questgrind. Everything else was fine for me.