Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Malakili]

Block was a pretty bad mechanic. Very latency sensitive and it made balancing player durability more or less impossible. So PvE content, if they actually had any, would have inevitably involved at least one person holding down block for the entire duration over which they had aggro. Not very exciting.

This is exactly how I did Burial Cave (one of the 5 man dungeons lairs).  At first I tried to actually hold aggro/tank with my might/con character, and the party failed miserably on the final boss.  We then just switched to a strategy where whoever had aggro just blocked and then when someone else pulled it off, they blocked.   I think Cryptic would hail this as combat that "transcends class roles" or some bullshit, but in the end it just meant that anything besides a high damage class was basically a handicap for the party (one person having a few healing abilities is nice but thats about it)

[statisticalfool]

I'm 100% certain it works as well as the PC version. Take that as you will.

However, someone else on the ChampO forums made a great point - Cryptic doesn't just have a sub fee, they also have a cash shop. Would MS be comfortable in Cryptic porting this cash shop over to Xbox Live as well? If they are, they'll want a cut. If they don't then Cryptic needs a whole new content delivery plan.

Both STO and ChampO had their console ports as part of their business plan, I'm sure. However, the reality is that the gatekeepers of those consoles aren't nearly as flexible as the PC which I'm sure has unofficially scuttled those plans.

Preface: no disagreement that the difficulty is the gatekeeping.

Microtransactions, game-affecting, content-unlocking transactions, are commonplace for the 360, and Microsoft is more than happy to take their cut. Handling subscriptions (not including xbox live gold) is something that's nearly non-existent.

I think there are three reasonable factors:
1) MS Certification is tougher than just having a buggy game and patching it all the time. (counter-example: MW2)
2) MS is reluctant to let subscription games in, making the process harder.
3) Putting in the effort on CO for the 360 when STO is launching? Surely, you jest.

Also, you know, much as people like their carrots and levels and things, I'm not sure if there's really the audience for a game that just looks and plays kind of sad next to the middling Marvel: Ultimate Alliance 2.

[Kageru]

Someone doing some population checks, including those in instances (thread).

If you'll check some of my poll results above, you'll see that instanced players account for around 50% of activity at any given time. To reflect this, I changed the way I collected numbers.

Seriously, though. Concurrent users only break 1000 during peak times. Otherwise, they languish in the mid hundreds. Unless we magically have literally tens of thousands of users who maintain subscriptions but don't log in (like a couple of the earlier posters), that's bad news for subscription numbers, and in turn, CO's longevity.

[Malakili]

Someone doing some population checks, including those in instances (thread).

If you'll check some of my poll results above, you'll see that instanced players account for around 50% of activity at any given time. To reflect this, I changed the way I collected numbers.

Seriously, though. Concurrent users only break 1000 during peak times. Otherwise, they languish in the mid hundreds. Unless we magically have literally tens of thousands of users who maintain subscriptions but don't log in (like a couple of the earlier posters), that's bad news for subscription numbers, and in turn, CO's longevity.

Not surprising really, the game can be fairly fun, but doesn't give you any remotely compelling reason to play it more than a month or two max unless you are a huge comic junkie, and if you are, you are probably well established in CoX and aren't going to jump ship for a worse game.

I don't think they'll shut the game down, but I don't really expect to see much else come out besides perhaps a trickle of content to the c-store. 

[statisticalfool]

For standard subscription-based MMOs, is there any good idea what the total / peak ratio generally is:

Obviously, there are tons of confounding factors, but is there any idea if its 3-4x? 10-15x?

[Malakili]

For standard subscription-based MMOs, is there any good idea what the total / peak ratio generally is:

Obviously, there are tons of confounding factors, but is there any idea if its 3-4x? 10-15x?

I've heard everything from 5 to 20%.  If you look at a game like EVE its more like 50k out of 300+k, which is a bit under 20%, and I imagine that is one the high end, because for EVE I suspect there are more people with multiple accounts.  If the peak CO numbers are currently 1600ish, I can't imagine they have more than 10-15k players max.

There is also the variable of the 6 month sub package, which is still going, as well as the free trials.   The guy showed that a good 10+% of the player base at any given time is in the tutorial, which leads me to believe the free trial might make up a decent percentage of the player base.  The 6 monthers are going to run out in a couple months, and  I suspect a lot of them won't renew, causing a further drop off.

[Kageru]

When EQ was mighty I remember the rule of thumb was 4x peak online was a decent estimate of total subscribers. That might well have changed given a lot more casual players, and is likely to be larger for a game that is no longer "hot", but probably not by a massive amount.

[Malakili]

When EQ was mighty I remember the rule of thumb was 4x peak online was a decent estimate of total subscribers. That might well have changed given a lot more casual players, and is likely to be larger for a game that is no longer "hot", but probably not by a massive amount.

I think its fair to say they are in the 5000-15000 range somewhere,  and likely closer to the 5000.   The question is how many of those people are actually continuing to give Cryptic money (aren't lifetimes or trials)

[UnSub]

Also, how many are currently in the STO beta. I'm sure there is some significant overlap in the Cryptic's player base for both games.

[Lantyssa]

20% was the wisdom insiders gave us at the time of SWG.  Since then I've seen a lot of allusions to the numbers not being as accurate anymore.  Speculation on my part that player bases started to become more casual in their length of play, depending upon game, as older players gained families and the market widened.

[Trippy]

~20% still applies to games like WoW. Asian MMORPGs tend to report PCU (Peak Concurrent Users) since so many are free to play and their concept of "subscriber" is somewhat different than ours. So you can compare WoW China's PCU numbers to Blizzard's reported WoW China "subscriber" numbers to get the ratio and it is 1/5 to 1/6, at least for the Chinese. Other games, with different levels of "stickiness", will of course vary in their ratios.

[Venkman]

20% was the wisdom insiders gave us at the time of SWG.  Since then I've seen a lot of allusions to the numbers not being as accurate anymore.  Speculation on my part that player bases started to become more casual in their length of play, depending upon game, as older players gained families and the market widened.

That is certainly a part of it. But things also changed as more people showed up due to a combination of new MMO themes, more broadband penetration, and teens getting back into gaming in college. More hardcore showed up with them, but many more dabblers did as well.

[UnSub]

CoH/V had an average of 13.4% of their active subscriber base show up in their maximum quarterly concurrent figures, back when they released them.

[Sky]

I've got a free month thanks to cheap Steam deals, going to dip in for a bit.

[Goreschach]

The main factor contributing to the high peak concurrent activity during earlier MMO's was probably simply due to only the extremely hardcore pc geeks playing MMO's back then. Back then, a lot of people were on much more unstable OS's, had relatively lower fps performance in videogames, had to deal with dialup, and shit like that. One of the reasons WOW was so popular was that before then, the mmo's were a much bigger pain the ass to even get running properly. Before then the kind of tech and tech knowledge needed were much less ubiquitous. Only the hardcore players would even put up with that shit. The more casual players didn't even bother.

[Malakili]

New "expansion" announced.  I don't know if its an expansion or "adventure pack" or what.

Vibora Bay Watch
We’ve had a big secret here at Cryptic, and we can’t hold it in any longer. Over the past few months we’ve been working like mad on our first expansion for Champions Online! Vibora Bay is one of the Gulf Coast’s largest and most exciting cities. It’s a center of commerce, culture, tourism, and some incredibly strange goings-on. It maintains unusual traditions of mysticism and religion along with an eclectic group of inhabitants and frequent paranormal activities. Heroes constantly face threats of global proportions, but this time the crisis is greater than ever. The apocalypse has come, and it rides upon the half angelic / half demonic wings of Therakiel.
A web page is currently in the works that will feature screen shots, a video trailer, and detailed information on this level 37 – 40 mega-adventure pack, so stay tuned for more information!

There is some debate about whether or not this is going to be a free "expansion" or require a buy from the c-store.  I have to assume its free, because I just don't think many people would pay money for it....

Edit:  Also, a big patch apparently: http://www.champions-online.com/node/594825

[koro]

It's not free:

I'll cut off this speculation before it even begins. Vibora will be our first paid content expansion. I can't talk pricing yet, but it will not be something on the scale of a full boxed game. It is a new zone, and will be priced accordingly.

http://forums.champions-online.com/showpost.php?p=1447669&postcount=5

 Their first actual real content addition and you gotta pay.

[Kageru]

From a company where most of their innovation is in pre-order plans and milking the user base this should come as no surprise.

It's not even end-game content... another 37-40 levelling zone? That's just bizarre. And as some of the posters on the CO boards are saying would make a lot more sense in a f2p game.

[Shatter]

"I'll cut off this speculation before it even begins. Vibora will be our first paid content expansion. I can't talk pricing yet, but it will not be something on the scale of a full boxed game. It is a new zone, and will be priced accordingly."

WOWJUSTWOW.  I was kind of thinking that for those of you planning to play STO, if you want I can come to your house and kick you in the nuts, it will be a paid kick in the nuts but it will be priced accordingly. 

[Bandit]

Disappointing.  I was really hoping that the announcement would include some more "sandbox" elements (base-building, identities, super-group mechanics/rewards). 

Most efforts are definitely focused on STO at the moment.  The "state of the game" announcement was rushed out due to a pitchfork-like frothing from the community for the lack of attention to CO. Pretty much why they have no media to accompany the expansion announcement. I am not sure a kitchen sink patch that fixed existing problems and a paid content 'expansion' will soothe the masses.  I am not sure many of the 6-month subscribers will be back.

Otherwise, the additional content consists of recycling the Blood Moon event every full moon and difficulty sliders which were available in CoX years ago.

I am really hoping that some of the work on STO and the cryptic engine is transferable to CO as I have no interest in STO.  I feel like I am supporting the development of STO at the moment.

I know I am part of the problem as I will pay for the new zone and continue to play CO albeit more casually than I have played any other MMO.

[Sky]

It's not even end-game content... another 37-40 levelling zone?

There might be a perspective issue. The journey is the destination. Embrace it and mmo becomes a lot more enjoyable.

CO has been out, what, six months? WoW put out two expansions in five years. I'd hold off the drama until pricing and features are announced, but then I guess that's what makes mmo players so fucking retarded. Rage on, tiny dancers. Rage on. If I were Cryptic and attracted the kind of players that show up on their boards, I'd shut the fucking game down entirely. What a bunch of entitled assholes who expect way too fucking much out of a glorified online Marvel Ultimate Alliance.

Not aimed at Bandit, who actually has a reasoned opinion, apparently.

[Malakili]

Disappointing.  I was really hoping that the announcement would include some more "sandbox" elements (base-building, identities, super-group mechanics/rewards). 

Unfortunately, they said supgeroup bases were currently no in development.  Its a shame really, because thats the kind of feature that might actually make me want to go back.

[Shatter]

It's not even end-game content... another 37-40 levelling zone?

There might be a perspective issue. The journey is the destination. Embrace it and mmo becomes a lot more enjoyable.

CO has been out, what, six months? WoW put out two expansions in five years. I'd hold off the drama until pricing and features are announced, but then I guess that's what makes mmo players so fucking retarded. Rage on, tiny dancers. Rage on. If I were Cryptic and attracted the kind of players that show up on their boards, I'd shut the fucking game down entirely. What a bunch of entitled assholes who expect way too fucking much out of a glorified online Marvel Ultimate Alliance.

Not aimed at Bandit, who actually has a reasoned opinion, apparently.

CO is already a content dry game, one could argue this added content should of been there at launch(at least some of it) but they are going to make people pay for it. 

[Typhon]

CO is already a content dry game, one could argue this added content should of been there at launch(at least some of it) but they are going to make people pay for it. 

Who knew that people would pay for scraps?  ... Well, given the recent crop of DLC in single-player games launching the game, and then launching DLC WITH THE LAUNCH OF THE GAME, it seems like everyone knows that people will pay for scraps.

So sure, compared with MMOs of old, this seems cash-grabby.  Compared with the new DLC business model, it's a no brainer.  It's just what the customer will tolerate.  All they need to do is charge in the $10-20 range for a zone or two and it doesn't matter how much people bitch.  Granted, Cryptic is in somewhat of a rarefied territory here, combining subs and DLC, but I don't get the feeling that Cryptic is doing fantastically, so can you even call it greed?  As a business, I get the feeling that they are just doing what they need to do (and know they can get away with) to keep operating.

[Sky]

Unfortunately, they said supgeroup bases were currently no in development.  Its a shame really, because thats the kind of feature that might actually make me want to go back.

Not only would that be a perfect feature for a SUPERHERO GAME, but by adding a 'levelling zone', you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Adding content satisfies content consumers for about a couple days at best. Then they will continue to bitch.

Adding more rp elements like the supergroup HQ would encourage the rp sections of the playerbase, who create their own content. The golden years of UO were very content-dry...and yet more content rich than any game since.

I don't get the feeling that Cryptic is doing fantastically, so can you even call it greed?  As a business, I get the feeling that they are just doing what they need to do (and know they can get away with) to keep operating.

That was kinda my take on it, too.

[Bandit]

The ensuing shit-storm is mildly entertaining...this made me laugh:

[Malakili]

Oh Roper, in an industry of fallen stars, I think he may have left the biggest crater.

[Count Nerfedalot]

Oh Roper, in an industry of fallen stars, I think he may have left the biggest crater.

Wow, with the field including such standouts as John Romero, Brad McQuaid, and Richard Gariott, that's a pretty gutsy call to make! 

[Sky]

I might be guilty of a wee bit of trolling of zone chat. CO players get really worked up about the game and have a real complex about STO. It's pretty hilarious.

CO is a fun beat-em-up. Period. I don't really understand people who need it to be something beyond that. MMO players, they're an odd lot.

[Malakili]

CO is a fun beat-em-up. Period. I don't really understand people who need it to be something beyond that. MMO players, they're an odd lot.

Because there are fun beat em ups that don't charge you monthly.

[Sky]

Ok. So go play them if that's your problem.

[Malakili]

Ok. So go play them if that's your problem.

Well, yeah, thats what people are doing...  thats one of the reasons the game isn't doing well.  Thats my point, you made the comment "I don't understand ..."
I'm telling you why, so you CAN understand.

[Sky]

That's not an explanation of why people need it to be something it isn't and get all verbose about it. It's fun, play it until it's not fun, then move on.

The rest is Cryptic's concern, not the player's.

[Nebu]

That's not an explanation of why people need it to be something it isn't and get all verbose about it. It's fun, play it until it's not fun, then move on.

I think this is an issue of emotional investment.  Look at what you've posted about the addition of pvp to EQ2 and apply your own response to it.  It's our passion for these games that takes the conversation in new and interesting directions.  It's not that we think we can actually change much.  

The statement above is a good one.  It's something we should all, as gamers, take to heart.  It's just hard to remember when we're passionate about the particular game that we happen to be playing.  We see a game getting close to our ideal and wonder why it doesn't spend more time and energy moving in that direction.  It's all part of being on the sidelines, I guess.

[Malakili]

That's not an explanation of why people need it to be something it isn't and get all verbose about it. It's fun, play it until it's not fun, then move on.

The rest is Cryptic's concern, not the player's.

Well then, I guess these forums might as well not even exist!  Whats to discuss?  Like the game play it, don't like it, don't play it, don't think about it, don't comment on it!