Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Cadaverine]

In CB, and the Cryptic bucks is news to me.

[kildorn]

I don't see a successful operation doing full box price, full monthly fee, AND microtransactions.

They're all a means to an end (monies), but you can't really throw every revenue generation scheme at something and expect it all to be fine with the customers. The only think they're missing are in game ads to complete the fuckup.

I don't think we're going to see many MMOs without extra fee based services (if not microtransactions, things like paid character moves/edits), but I don't think anyone will combine gameplay enhancing premium features/items over top of a full monthly fee and box cost successfully.

[Malakili]

I don't see a successful operation doing full box price, full monthly fee, AND microtransactions.

They're all a means to an end (monies), but you can't really throw every revenue generation scheme at something and expect it all to be fine with the customers. The only think they're missing are in game ads to complete the fuckup.

I don't think we're going to see many MMOs without extra fee based services (if not microtransactions, things like paid character moves/edits), but I don't think anyone will combine gameplay enhancing premium features/items over top of a full monthly fee and box cost successfully.

It depends I'd say.  I mean, you could argue that WoW does microtransactions with things iike gender changes, server transfers, (and of course their upcoming faction change will probably cost real money as well).  If champions online uses cryptic bucks for these sort of services then whatever.   I'll be slightly annoyed if it buys things like new color lasers, and I'll be very annoyed if its for buying vital items.

[Furiously]

When COX started doing their costume packs for more money grabs I pretty much lost any interest I had.

[Sky]

CoX has costume packs?

 

[Furiously]

https://secure.ncsoft.com/cgi-bin/Store.pl?dnv=4481625777&action=toggleCategory&mode=open&category=2

wedding, cyborg, expansion pack, yep.

[Malakili]

https://secure.ncsoft.com/cgi-bin/Store.pl?dnv=4481625777&action=toggleCategory&mode=open&category=2

wedding, cyborg, expansion pack, yep.

Well, I guess its no worse than most of the DLC for oblivion.  Horse Armor.

[Lantyssa]

It depends I'd say.  I mean, you could argue that WoW does microtransactions with things iike gender changes, server transfers, (and of course their upcoming faction change will probably cost real money as well).  If champions online uses cryptic bucks for these sort of services then whatever.   I'll be slightly annoyed if it buys things like new color lasers, and I'll be very annoyed if its for buying vital items.

If they're planning Cryptibux from the begining, it's probably not for just the 'rare' events like server transfers.

[Kageru]

The comment on the deal is "premium in-game items" so its not just services.

[Hutch]

The comment on the deal is "premium in-game items" so its not just services.

I think that was marketing spiel. "Premium in-game items" is code for "cool themed costume parts and a pair of rocket boots".

"I invented these. I can fly! Can you fly?"

[UnSub]

Can you get to Los Gatos? Want to try ChampO for an hour playtest during a weekday? Here's your chance!

It's an ... interesting ... offer two months out from ChampO's launch. Although I personally think doing focus groups in game testing is a fantastic idea, I wonder about doing it at this stage of ChampO's development. Especially with closed beta going for as long as it has.

[Numtini]

Especially with closed beta going for as long as it has.

 

[Trippy]

Cut that out.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13793.0

[UnSub]

I'm in ChampO's beta (which I can say under their NDA) and I do wonder what it means.

[Ingmar]

Can you get to Los Gatos? Want to try ChampO for an hour playtest during a weekday? Here's your chance!

It's an ... interesting ... offer two months out from ChampO's launch. Although I personally think doing focus groups in game testing is a fantastic idea, I wonder about doing it at this stage of ChampO's development. Especially with closed beta going for as long as it has.

Hm, I could do this on my lunch break easily.

[UnSub]

Sign up - I'd be interested to hear (once the NDA drops) exactly what they tested with these teams of 8.

[Venkman]

In CB, and the Cryptic bucks is news to me.

Shouldn't be.

[UnSub]

Obviously it was known that Cryptic was working on microtrans infrastructure. With the NDA in place we can't really say any more than that.

I certainly hope that, if Cryptic is going down the box fee, sub fee and microtrans cost route that someone thought to do some choice modelling (or similar) about how having all of these pricing mechanisms is going to impact on player numbers at launch. They probably haven't, but I'd think it would be a basic bit of business planning.

[Big Gulp]

Yes. But in a world full of heroes, don't expect open world battles.

It was stupid when CoX launched without villains, and it's doubly stupid now.  That the same people made the same mistake?  Triple stupid.

I'd also like to reiterate that this game has the Emmert taint surrounding it like a dark cloud.  I'll pass.

[UnSub]

Emmert sez: CoV wasn't done right by us, ChampO needs 100k players to be profitable.

G4: That’s totally true. Speaking of villains, your players are strictly heroes in Champions Online?

JE: Yes, they create nemeses who are AI controlled. PvEs, so to speak. If we were to do villains, I would definitely do it differently than we did previously and I would make villain gameplay extremely different. I think that was a mistake in City of Villains.Jack Emmert

G4: So, if you were to make – I don’t know what the opposite of Champions Online would be –

JE:, Nemesis Online.

G4: Nemesis Online! Is that something you've talked about?

JE Yes, we have. Look, if Champions is successful and people want that, heck yea. But, I think that I already have a very different idea in mind for that. I think in City of Villains, we were asked to make the game in about a year, and so we were kind of focused on “We gotta get this done.” So, we just took the template of City of Heroes and copied it. If I were to do it over again, I would create a very different type of gameplay for villain worlds.

G4: Speaking of it being successful, when you’re launching an MMO, like how many subscribers do you need in order to survive or thrive?

JE: Well, I think that number is the number for success is over 100,000 for us. If it’s over 100,000, I’m skipping the light fantastic. The break-even point is somewhere below 100,000. And that’s obviously depending upon – every MMO is different – depending on how much money is spent on it. But, clearly, we mark 100,000 as success.

The 100k player number is intelligent because it's actually a realistic number. 100k players for a MMO is niche these days and much better than announcing you need 500k players to start making money.

[Arrrgh]

Yes. But in a world full of heroes, don't expect open world battles.

It was stupid when CoX launched without villains, and it's doubly stupid now.  That the same people made the same mistake?  Triple stupid.

I'd also like to reiterate that this game has the Emmert taint surrounding it like a dark cloud.  I'll pass.

Do regular OCD meds work for Obsessive Compulsive Nerfing?

[Big Gulp]

Do regular OCD meds work for Obsessive Compulsive Nerfing?

I just won't touch anything that man makes.  I consider the purple patch to be the single biggest game destroying thing ever added to a game.  I even put it above what happened to Star Wars: Galaxies.  It really did fuck the game up that much.  What you had was something that was probably a bit too easy, but actually made you feel heroic taken down to the mundane realms that every other MMO inhabits.

In a superhero game you want crazy shit happening, you want pandemonium, and you want some incredible hulk looking dude tossing around 20 henchmen at a time.  The purple patch pretty much ripped the soul out of the game as far as I'm concerned, and I was a raging CoH fanboy up 'til that point.  Maybe that's why I'm still so bitter; they were close to perfection as far as I was concerned and then they shit the bed in such a monumental way that I can never forgive them.

[UnSub]

Just to stoke the fires of Emmert love:

It's more like Marvel Ultimate Alliance than WoW, and that's exactly the feel that Cryptic was going for, according to Emmert. He says that the future of MMOs lies in consoles, so their goal was to get an action RPG experience inside ofa persistent, well-populated MMO world that worked just as well on console as on PC. To that end, Champions was planned with consoles in mind all along, with none of the built-in "latency" of other MMOs where you have to wait for a spell to cool down simply because the technology on which the MMO is built cannot handle a bazillion particle effects at once.

It's actually not a bad overview from Kotaku.

[Ghambit]

MUA doesnt require a subscription fee though 

[Goreschach]

Just to stoke the fires of Emmert love:

It's more like Marvel Ultimate Alliance than WoW, and that's exactly the feel that Cryptic was going for, according to Emmert. He says that the future of MMOs lies in consoles, so their goal was to get an action RPG experience inside ofa persistent, well-populated MMO world that worked just as well on console as on PC. To that end, Champions was planned with consoles in mind all along, with none of the built-in "latency" of other MMOs where you have to wait for a spell to cool down simply because the technology on which the MMO is built cannot handle a bazillion particle effects at once.

It's actually not a bad overview from Kotaku.

Wait, so is he saying that WOW skills have cooldowns because of particle effects?

I know it's not a rare thing for the Old Guard to show us that they Just Don't Get It, but that is fucking awesome.

[HaemishM]

It's more like Marvel Ultimate Alliance than WoW

 

[Strazos]

With all the love going around (heh!), wondering if anyone has a spare key sitting around so I too can give this a whirl.

A few friends of mine are sort of stoked for this, but after Hellgate and AoC, I'm reticent to drop cash on something that might possibly sucks ass.

[Ingmar]

Do regular OCD meds work for Obsessive Compulsive Nerfing?

I just won't touch anything that man makes.  I consider the purple patch to be the single biggest game destroying thing ever added to a game.  I even put it above what happened to Star Wars: Galaxies.  It really did fuck the game up that much.  What you had was something that was probably a bit too easy, but actually made you feel heroic taken down to the mundane realms that every other MMO inhabits.

In a superhero game you want crazy shit happening, you want pandemonium, and you want some incredible hulk looking dude tossing around 20 henchmen at a time.  The purple patch pretty much ripped the soul out of the game as far as I'm concerned, and I was a raging CoH fanboy up 'til that point.  Maybe that's why I'm still so bitter; they were close to perfection as far as I was concerned and then they shit the bed in such a monumental way that I can never forgive them.

A bit too easy? That's like saying Warren Buffet has a bit of money.

The game was a complete joke before that change. There was exactly one thing difficult about it, and that was finding your way through Perez Park to your mission entrance.

[Goreschach]

Who gives a shit? It was fun. It's not exactly like WoW, or really any major MMO in the past couple years, hasn't been easy.

[Ghambit]

A bit too easy? That's like saying Warren Buffet has a bit of money.

The game was a complete joke before that change. There was exactly one thing difficult about it, and that was finding your way through Perez Park to your mission entrance.

This is why they ("they" being "The Man") need to get away from dumping money into these cookie-cutter 4-color supers games. 
As long as we're forever trapped in Marvel/DC land, we're gonna get uber-heroic easymode gameplay.  What made the purple-patch dumb was that the game was obviously 4-color, yet they tried to make it grittier (in the dumbest way possible).  They should've just stuck to their guns in the 1st place and done a better job doing it.  Also, it's been quoted that one of the main reasons for the nerf was the simple fact they didnt have enough CONTENT to offer players who just whipped through the lvl-grind... so they had to slow things down (same thing's happened to many, many a game).

It's kind of a dilemma that has more to do with the Feel as well as the implementation.  If they have the content they can make their players as godly as they wannabe, and they can go 4-color galacticus out the ass.  But, personally I like my supers grittier/realistic with more emphasis on character and creative powers... and it seems the public and current writers feel the same way, as there seems to be a preponderance of grittier heroes these days in books, comics, and movies.

A game in the 'verse of something like Godlike or Wild Talents would be perfect... where things are quite deadly even though supers roam the land.  It'd play more like an FPS for supers rather than an RPG for heroes.
Anyways, one can dream.

[Kageru]

The Atari UK website used to have Champions online for XBoX360 listed with "cancelled" in the release date field. I notice now the page has vanished entirely. Guess trying to sell MMO games to console users is harder than they thought.

[UnSub]

If they have the content they can make their players as godly as they wannabe, and they can go 4-color galacticus out the ass.  But, personally I like my supers grittier/realistic with more emphasis on character and creative powers... and it seems the public and current writers feel the same way, as there seems to be a preponderance of grittier heroes these days in books, comics, and movies.

People like their grim and gritty heroes to also be godly, not realistic. It's not like people go, "Did you see the last issue of Batman, where he broke his leg after landing badly, was disfigured after being squirted with acid by the Joker and now is going to spend the next three months in hospital? How awesomely creative and character building!" Grittier often ends up being more blood and boobs, not any greater depth of character. Even the recent superhero movies, while often based in reality, are happy to stretch what a character can and can't do out of the realms of reality.

A game in the 'verse of something like Godlike or Wild Talents would be perfect... where things are quite deadly even though supers roam the land.  It'd play more like an FPS for supers rather than an RPG for heroes.
Anyways, one can dream.

Having spent a long, long time on superhero MMO forums, the last thing players ask for is the chance to die more quickly. Even in this thread Big Gulp asks for the ability to beat up 20 minions with little chance of failure. Players equate superheroes with wading through seas of underlings in a volcano lair before having a close fight (but winning) against a boss character.

[UnSub]

The Atari UK website used to have Champions online for XBoX360 listed with "cancelled" in the release date field. I notice now the page has vanished entirely. Guess trying to sell MMO games to console users is harder than they thought.

It's not the selling it that is the problem - it's getting things worked out with MS in terms of updates that is the main barrier.

[Kageru]

I'd settle for "another barrier". Convincing console gamers that a slow paced, co-operative game with a subscription fee (+cash shop in this case) is a good investment remains largely unproven.

[Ghambit]

Having spent a long, long time on superhero MMO forums, the last thing players ask for is the chance to die more quickly. Even in this thread Big Gulp asks for the ability to beat up 20 minions with little chance of failure. Players equate superheroes with wading through seas of underlings in a volcano lair before having a close fight (but winning) against a boss character.

You can be godly and still have a sense of gritty deadliness.  A superfast hero can still die with a .38 to the face.  The invincible man can still fall into a tree-cutter.  And all have their psychological demons to deal with.
The vast majority of gamers are playing games where they may be "special" but they're by no means 4-color super-ish... and they like it.   So, I find it a stretch to think that every Supers game has to make its PCs "super."

Make them heroes, give them godlike powers, and put them in a World that means/relates to something.