Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[Slyfeind]

I'll take a Mass Effect over a Zelda any day of the week, personally.

FPSes are feeling more like role playing games than RPGs these days. (I'd love to play an Ultima that uses Half-Life 2's engine....)

[Fordel]

I guess superhero games aren't for you on some level. The City (...my "The City") is a central theme in the genre, it isn't really abandonable.

For all of the complaining about CoH's lack of maps, there are actually quite a bit more than 5:

etc.

Maybe if all those maps didn't look like something I could make out of a NWN tileset editor, I might agree. It's like those non-instanced caves in WoW. Sure they might have a different colour, an extra tunnel or a few added stalagmites, but they are the same damn cave. CoH always felt like the same cave, over and over again. and again.

Warehouse = Cave
Ruined Warehouse = Ice Cave

[Ratman_tf]

(I'd love to play an Ultima that uses Half-Life 2's engine....)

Here we go again... 

[Velorath]

I guess superhero games aren't for you on some level. The City (...my "The City") is a central theme in the genre, it isn't really abandonable.

Ironically, the Tick did abandon The City in the comic.

But while you obviously can't do a Superhero game without cities, that doesn't mean that's what the genre limits you to, and that Cryptic couldn't have come up with more screenshots to show off that weren't reminiscent of CoH (especially when they've said the game won't take place in just a city).  Look at the Marvel Universe for example and you could do the Negative Zone, Asgard, Latveria, various alien planets (or even Ego the living planet), Deviant Lemuria, etc.., and show off different areas that fit within the genre but don't look quite so familiar.

[Typhon]

If you weren't limited to one city, you could use the archectectural style of Rome, Paris, NY, Hong Kong, etc, etc, etc, to help you create different city maps.

I'd agree that, without a fantastic imagination, a warehouse is a warehouse is a warehouse, but a city street need not and should not be just a city street.  And to give CoX some props, I think they figured this out when they started introducing missions that used parts of the zones as instance maps.  Hopefully they take this concept a but further in CO.

[eldaec]

Don't worry about the players you don't have. You are what you are at launch," advised Emmert.

Blizzard disagrees. 

In terms of numbers Blizzard disagrees. But in terms of type of player, type of game, Emmert is 100% correct.

See: SWG.

If you accidentally launch a game with a different focus to what you intended, you can't change it later.


EQ2 changed after launch, but it changed from shit to not shit. It is still fundamentally about grouping, levels & loot.

[Venkman]

EQ2 changed to try and make a better game for their fans. SWG changed to try and get new ones.

And Blizzard doesn't disprove based on raw numbers. They distribute on the growth curve, as does any game that grows after launch. CoH did not. It was one of the first to launch big and start a decline almost right away.

[Sjofn]

Maybe if all those maps didn't look like something I could make out of a NWN tileset editor, I might agree. It's like those non-instanced caves in WoW. Sure they might have a different colour, an extra tunnel or a few added stalagmites, but they are the same damn cave. CoH always felt like the same cave, over and over again. and again.

Warehouse = Cave
Ruined Warehouse = Ice Cave

I hated the caves almost as much as I hated Orange Bagel. I think there was more variety than you're giving them credit for, but seeing as how you barely even got a travel power during your time in CoX, I'm not real surprised. 

[UnSub]

An interesting take on in-game balance:

Heretic (aka Geoff Tuffli)

We've made the deliberate decision to allow for a massive amount of customization and power flexibility. Even where this flexibility won't be total, the reality is that this will - not might, but absolutely will - allow for players to gimp themselves and for min-maxing in various forms to occur.

Trying to balance this with traditional conceptions of balance is clearly going to be an uphill battle. What we are focusing on, instead, is to try to make it so that there is as wide an array of viable choices and options as possible. What I do not want to see is a system where while a player can theoretically choose a million different options, in reality all but one of those options is completely gimping themselves.

What does this mean in practical terms?

We are going to provide as flexible and as customizable a system of power selection as we can offer while preserving good gameplay for a majority of builds and approaches. Some builds will inevitably fall between the cracks of our expectations for normative gameplay, and we're just going to accept that as an inevitable price for experimentation.

Translation: we aren't going to be able to balance this, so we're not going to try. Gimp and min/max away!

It's an interesting position to take.

[Typhon]

I like it, because I think it implies that their will be a large number of power combinations and that they will not be spending massive development cycles screwing with balance.  A couple of (obvious) things:

1) They definitely need a way to respec that doesn't invovle cutting off testicles
2) They probably shouldn't put alot of effort into making 1v1 PvP mean anything (if they include PvP at all)
3) People, including myself, that fall in love with sub-nominal builds need to accept that they are playing on 'hard mode', or move on
4) People, including everyone but myself, should get over the 'omg flavor of the month!' crying.  There is a significant portion of the player base that wants to play a powerful build.  they don't enjoy min/maxing, they don't enjoy playing sub-nominal builds and they don't enjoy waiting for the developers to fix their first choice of power selections.  [Note: I dont ever create a character based upon buzz that it's 'uber', but I also don't get all the hate for the folks that gravitate to builds that are powerful]

[Trippy]

I like it, because I think it implies that their will be a large number of power combinations and that they will not be spending massive development cycles screwing with balance.

This is a Jack Emmert game we're talking about here.

[Typhon]

I like it, because I think it implies that their will be a large number of power combinations and that they will not be spending massive development cycles screwing with balance.

This is a Jack Emmert game we're talking about here.

 

Stll, I like the genre (MMO super hero), and CO is the only new game in town right now.  So if I'm not going to be optimistic in this honeymoon-anythings-possible early stage... well, that just seems broken to me.  Granted, I'm not rocking back and forth in front of my computer dreaming big dreams, but it's more pleasant to imagine that Jack will cherry pick the stuff that was good about CoX (character creation/customization + engaging combat) and learn from the stuff that wasn't so good about CoX (archtypes, nerfage, lack of depth, repitition).

Edit: added "new", because we obviously already have CoX

[Ratman_tf]

We are going to provide as flexible and as customizable a system of power selection as we can offer while preserving good gameplay for a majority of builds and approaches.

I approve. If the focus is on fun stuff to do, instead of spending tons of time fiddling with 0.005 dps differences in character builds... We'll see if this concept survives beta... (assuming they get to beta.)

[Nevermore]

This article is mostly a rehash of what we already know, but there are some interesting tidbits.

Basic details on the controller layout for the Xbox 360 version of the game have now been revealed. The two analogue sticks are used in typical action game fashion -- left stick is movement, right stick is camera. Pressing the A button will make your character jump, while one of the face buttons is a default attack (X button?) that gives you an immediate punch, kick or single blast of some kind. Holding down the right bumper puts your superhero into a guard stance. Anytime you achieve success in attacking or defending, a blue bar representing your power fills up -- allowing superpowers to be unleashed via any of the other mapped face buttons. Holding down the left trigger will act as a shift-function, which makes your face buttons change into other mapped powers on the fly. None of these powers have recharge timers, so if you've got the blue energy to pull it off you can do so instantly and to your hearts content.

That whole blue bar endurance/power thing sounds like what Guild Wars did with Warriors and their adrenaline-based attacks.

[WayAbvPar]

We've made the deliberate decision to allow for a massive amount of customization and power flexibility.

The game has classes, but every class has access to every power. Class defines how many points each power costs for your character.

 

[Merusk]

We've made the deliberate decision to allow for a massive amount of customization and power flexibility.

The game has classes, but every class has access to every power. Class defines how many points each power costs for your character.

 

Nah, makes sense from a "world" standpoint.  Some people are just better at things than others.  One of the fundamental gripes I have about games these days is the P.C. position of "everyone can be equally good at everything!"   Really?  Ok, explain to that 5'-2" woman how she's going to lift that 300# crate unassisted, and then tell that 6'-4" 325# guy he's got to clean out the fuel tanks on a cargo jet.

Yeah.

[Nebu]

I always liked games where your size and race determined your ability to do things.  It made you make choices that were cost/benefit later in the game.  I can see how this would be problemmatic though... people make a choice early and then lament that choice later.  The evolution of game mechanics through nerfs and fixes can effect this as well. 

[WayAbvPar]

Ok, explain to that 5'-2" woman how she's going to lift that 300# crate unassisted

Um, she's a superhero? 

Making people choose a class at the beginning of their character's life that affects everything they do from then on is bullshit when you are preaching customization to the high heavens. If a class MUST be assigned, it should be done by the game system automatically, and well into the character's career. Take a look at what skills the character has, and how often they use them. Then maybe assign a class to them that allows them to discount future skills/upgrades that fit.

Pigeonholing characters is crap, but if it must be done, let players test drive the varied skills first and then imprison them in a class. Just a horrible artificial game mechanic that is a crutch for people that don't want to do the heavy lifting of balancing skills.

[Sky]

Respecs are good mmkay? Systems with a massive amount of skills and a cap are good, too.

Making a grindy and/or raid-style respec is FUCKING BAD, MMKAY, JACK? (So are class-based systems when you have access to all the skills  )

[kaid]

If they use the hero system rules at all the archtypes will be a very lose thing. Its more to help give a guideline for newer players than anything really hard coded. I am guessing one of the archetypes will be more generalist type who gets no big negatives for point costs on powers but no big pluses either so you could make him whatever you wanted.

It really depends on how big of a difference point wise it makes for picking something not "ideal" for your archetype. If its minor then only the uber min maxers will really care. If its sever then that could really gimp somebody who does not follow their class but I do not expect that. The hero system really does not go much for the hard class type their archetypes were more a visualization aid more than anything to focus new players.

[Ratman_tf]

Ok, explain to that 5'-2" woman how she's going to lift that 300# crate unassisted

Um, she's a superhero? 

Making people choose a class at the beginning of their character's life that affects everything they do from then on is bullshit when you are preaching customization to the high heavens. If a class MUST be assigned, it should be done by the game system automatically, and well into the character's career. Take a look at what skills the character has, and how often they use them. Then maybe assign a class to them that allows them to discount future skills/upgrades that fit.

Pigeonholing characters is crap, but if it must be done, let players test drive the varied skills first and then imprison them in a class. Just a horrible artificial game mechanic that is a crutch for people that don't want to do the heavy lifting of balancing skills.

Well, ideally you should be able to have a rough concept of what your characters is like in your head, based on the game. (A big guy who smashes things!, a ninja with a chainsaw!, rocket charlie from outer space!) and have some basic choices at character creation to set you on your path to smashing/sneaking/rocketing around.

Bait and switch (or 'gimping' if you prefer) should'nt happen to the extent that it does in some games. (Stat allocation at character creation is ridiculous. I put fucking points into charisma on my Ranger in DAOC for gob's sake!  )

[UnSub]

To summarise other dev comments from ChampO (I won't link each one by one, unless there's clamouring demand for it):

 - The idea with the powers system is to make each power have a point so you'd consider taking it, rather than balancing them to uber-flatness

 - The classes are meant to be templates that suggest where a character's strength lies, but if you want to be a high damage dealing meatshield, you can, regardless of class

 - It looks like points will be allocated as part of a lvl based system, with every lvl you receive some more points to spend on powers

 - Emmert keeps promising that he's learned from past mistakes

 - PvP is meant to be an included part of the game at launch, with the guy behind it being a fan of Shadowbane and EVE

Of course, it's early days and talk is cheap. We'll see.

[Trippy]

- The classes are meant to be templates that suggest where a character's strength lies, but if you want to be a high damage dealing meatshield, you can, regardless of class

I wanna see that one. If that's true everybody will be tank-mages.

- Emmert keeps promising that he's learned from past mistakes

ED is Emmert learning from past mistakes.

[Ratman_tf]

- The classes are meant to be templates that suggest where a character's strength lies, but if you want to be a high damage dealing meatshield, you can, regardless of class

I wanna see that one. If that's true everybody will be tank-mages.

Not everybody in UO were tank-mages. 

[Trippy]

Basic details on the controller layout for the Xbox 360 version of the game have now been revealed. The two analogue sticks are used in typical action game fashion -- left stick is movement, right stick is camera. Pressing the A button will make your character jump, while one of the face buttons is a default attack (X button?) that gives you an immediate punch, kick or single blast of some kind. Holding down the right bumper puts your superhero into a guard stance. Anytime you achieve success in attacking or defending, a blue bar representing your power fills up -- allowing superpowers to be unleashed via any of the other mapped face buttons. Holding down the left trigger will act as a shift-function, which makes your face buttons change into other mapped powers on the fly. None of these powers have recharge timers, so if you've got the blue energy to pull it off you can do so instantly and to your hearts content.

With no refresh timers and a blue bar to worry about (again) it sounds like you'll be spamming your basic attack until your blue bar fills up and then unleashing a big attack, and then it's back to spamming the basic attack. Otherwise if the big attacks had a net positive blue bar gain (or at least had a net gain of zero) you would just spam those all day.

[UnSub]

With no refresh timers and a blue bar to worry about (again) it sounds like you'll be spamming your basic attack until your blue bar fills up and then unleashing a big attack, and then it's back to spamming the basic attack. Otherwise if the big attacks had a net positive blue bar gain (or at least had a net gain of zero) you would just spam those all day.

Yes, that's right. Apparently there will be ranged and melee basic attacks that add to the endurance bar.

It reminds me of the Fury system, which had some value (obviously however, Fury overall sucked, but it had some good ideas mixed in) in that it rewarded you for playing, not for hiding for a while.

[WayAbvPar]

- It looks like points will be allocated as part of a lvl based system, with every lvl you receive some more points to spend on powers

Classes AND levels? What will these crazy innovators think of next?

 

[Sky]

It occurs to me that if you're making an online version of Champions, you should use the rules of the game Champions, since they have been play-tested for 17 years. And that would be Champions, not CoX2. Someone needs to tuck in their ego and do the job they were hired to do imo.

I never played Champions, I was more of a V&V guy back then.

[Montague]

- It looks like points will be allocated as part of a lvl based system, with every lvl you receive some more points to spend on powers

Classes AND levels? What will these crazy innovators think of next?

 

I can understand the archetype (class) restrictions for balance issues. Levels is just sheer laziness.

Instead of ChampO we should be calling it CINO.

[Nevermore]

I can understand the archetype (class) restrictions for balance issues. Levels is just sheer laziness.

When I said as much on the forums over there the reaction I got from the peanut gallery was similar to what I would expect if I had stapled baby Jesus to Santa Claus and set them both on fire.  So yeah, not likely the devs will change their minds on levels.

[HaemishM]

Obvious MMOG design is obvious.

There must be a book of MMOG blueprints that are floating around among MMOG developers that reads like a checklist for boring, unoriginal gameplay.

[Sky]

Obvious MMOG design is obvious.

There must be a book of MMOG blueprints that are floating around among MMOG developers that reads like a checklist for boring, unoriginal gameplay.

Everything changed in this post-11/23/04 world.

[UnSub]

It occurs to me that if you're making an online version of Champions, you should use the rules of the game Champions, since they have been play-tested for 17 years. And that would be Champions, not CoX2. Someone needs to tuck in their ego and do the job they were hired to do imo.

To clarify: Cryptic bought the IP rights to Champions, not the Hero System. So they're able to use all the characters, settings and terms of the Champions world, but aren't actually bound to the Hero System rules.

And, as was said elsewhere, the Hero System can be wonderfully abused by rules rapists everywhere. A direct port wouldn't work. However, exactly what kind of port it's going to be remains to be seen.

[Venkman]

Didn't they license the rights to talk about the Hero system though, and could license the system for use if they wanted to?

I think this is more a case of bootstrapping an IP on the MUO system they already had. Ripping apart class/archetypes to give everyone access to everything with some qualifiers isn't the same thing as going from a class based game to a total-customized UO-style skills-based one. So I suspect they either intended this all along with MUO, or had built MUO on this foundation and just loosened the restrictions as a mere homage to the Hero system.

And all of that is because they want to launch a game this year rather than build a brand new one.

In theory.

[UnSub]

Didn't they license the rights to talk about the Hero system though, and could license the system for use if they wanted to?

I think this is more a case of bootstrapping an IP on the MUO system they already had. Ripping apart class/archetypes to give everyone access to everything with some qualifiers isn't the same thing as going from a class based game to a total-customized UO-style skills-based one. So I suspect they either intended this all along with MUO, or had built MUO on this foundation and just loosened the restrictions as a mere homage to the Hero system.

And all of that is because they want to launch a game this year rather than build a brand new one.

In theory.

Yep, that's how I see it. They apparently can change the name to "Hero Online", but then that'd be called HO and no-one wants that.

And yes, this is more than likely retrofitting a lot of the development work done for MUO. Apparently after CoV didn't set the world on fire and NCsoft helped to cut the CoH/V dev team by 75%, Cryptic set on updating their internal game engine / toolset for next-gen. They've used some internal projects to help refine these improved tools / engines (or: worked on internal projects while this updating process was going on) but then MUO came along and seemed like a great license to work on.

History happened, so Cryptic probably now has to remove all the MUO aspects, develop the Champions apects, redo all the graphical content that could be seen as Marvel-esque and extend the PC compabitibilty to XP and Vista (because MUO was going to be Vista-only).

In theory - that's just what I've pieced together.

Power customisation would have been in MUO. If there was one request that started up on day 1 on the CoH/V forums and still hasn't stopped it was being able to customise your superhero's powers.