Champions Online: The No-NDA Merged Edition

[UnSub]

What do Cryptic care if they eat into CoH/V's population? They sold that IP to NCsoft. If the talk about the MMO dev watercooler is true, WoW brought a lot of new players into the MMO genre, some of whom will at least check out what a new MMO has to offer. So, weak IP or not, I think ChampO has a better shot at a bigger audience than CoH had on launch.

Apparently the following appeared up on the Hero Games website when they changed to a new homepage, but got scrubbed from the FAQ shortly after:

Q: What's the relationship between the Champions Online MMO and the Champions roleplaying game?

A: In late 2007 Cryptic Studios was looking for a comic book-style setting for its next massive multiplayer online roleplaying game. Several of Cryptic's designers and administrators are long-time Champions fans, so naturally they thought of using the Champions Universe. They opened up negotiations with us, and the end result of those negotiations was that Cryptic bought the Champions and Dark Champions intellectual property from us. They didn't buy the HERO System rules, just the Champions and Dark Champions IP (the characters, places, events, and so on). Under the terms of our agreement they license back to DOJ the right to produce roleplaying game books for Champions and Dark Champions.

The Champions Online MMO is going to be based on the Champions Universe setting and characters, so it will contain a lot of people and places that Champions fans know and love - Dr. Destroyer, Millennium City, Mechanon, VIPER, Vibora Bay, and so on. However, characters and organizations in the game may not be exactly like they are in published Champions books. The needs of an MMO and of a paper-and-pencil roleplaying game aren't always the same, and as the owners of the Champions Universe IP Cryptic Studios can change things around however it sees fit. However, we're working closely with them, and they're always interested in our ideas. So it's safe to say that Champions fans will instantly recognize a lot of what's in the MMO, and that reading our Champions books will give you some insight on the content of the MMO. Going forward we'll work with Cryptic so that new Champions books we publish "match up with" the MMO as much as possible, both graphically and in terms of content.

Another thing to remember is that the Champions Online MMO is not a "HERO System MMO." It doesn't use the HERO System rules, and the full rights to those rules are still owned by DOJ, Inc. Players of the MMO won't be able to use the HERO System rules to design their characters, for example. But once the MMO is available we'll publish a book that shows how to build Champions Online powers and abilities in HERO System terms so you can easily re-create your MMO character for your tabletop RPG game if you want.

It fits the timeline that MUO was rumoured to be cancelled and Cryptic got left with a superhero MMO but no IP to work with.

Also, it would seem to fit that if the 6th ed rules of Champions are to be launched mid-next year, they'd try to time the MMO launch with that.

[tazelbain]

Seems like a big waste.

[Ratman_tf]

Also, apparently Hero Games will be uploading the presentation to their website of their second big announcement scheduled for 10am PST on the 18th. This is the expected ChampO announcement.

Is that what we're going to call it? Sounds like a brand of dog food.

[Montague]

Another thing to remember is that the Champions Online MMO is not a "HERO System MMO." It doesn't use the HERO System rules, and the full rights to those rules are still owned by DOJ, Inc. Players of the MMO won't be able to use the HERO System rules to design their characters, for example. But once the MMO is available we'll publish a book that shows how to build Champions Online powers and abilities in HERO System terms so you can easily re-create your MMO character for your tabletop RPG game if you want.

[/quote]

DOA. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Ratman_tf]

What do Cryptic care if they eat into CoH/V's population? They sold that IP to NCsoft. If the talk about the MMO dev watercooler is true, WoW brought a lot of new players into the MMO genre, some of whom will at least check out what a new MMO has to offer. So, weak IP or not, I think ChampO has a better shot at a bigger audience than CoH had on launch.

Two quotes in a row. I need to get to work.  

This has been my "big" question. No doubt the MMOG players will be inclined to check out a new MMORPG, but will the bulk of WoW players give a shit, if it isn't WoW?

[HaemishM]

Another thing to remember is that the Champions Online MMO is not a "HERO System MMO." It doesn't use the HERO System rules, and the full rights to those rules are still owned by DOJ, Inc. Players of the MMO won't be able to use the HERO System rules to design their characters, for example. But once the MMO is available we'll publish a book that shows how to build Champions Online powers and abilities in HERO System terms so you can easily re-create your MMO character for your tabletop RPG game if you want.

DOA. Nothing to see here, move along.

Then what the fuck is the point? Geez, we bought an IP and the only thing worth a shit out of it, we can't use. That's the kind of announcement that could ruin a wet dream.

[Nevermore]

They needed characters and they needed them fast, that's the only reason they bought the IP.  That's the way I read it at least. 

If this new game doesn't have a very comprehensive character generation and customization, it's going to tank hard.  If it has levels and grind, it's going to have a very hard time but could still maybe do ok if it scores big on the first point and the grind isn't too horrible.  Since they state up front that they won't be using the Hero system mechanics, it seems highly unlikely we'll see a good free-form character builder with no levels and no grind.  How then is it going to be any better than CoX?

[Ratman_tf]

How then is it going to be any better than CoX?

"A dynamic, ever-changing world of adventure where you can heroically fight evildoers with your friends!"

*grind grind grind*

[waylander]

Seems like a big waste.

I agree. City of Heroes/Villains is about all the comic book MMO's the marketplace is likely to support. They hover around 150k subs, its a good casual game, and a new comic book MMO is going to have to offer radically different gameplay to make people move from COH.

[Nebu]

I agree. City of Heroes/Villains is about all the comic book MMO's the marketplace is likely to support. They hover around 150k subs, its a good casual game, and a new comic book MMO is going to have to offer radically different gameplay to make people move from COH.

Offer a slightly improved costume generator, a smoothed treadmill, and more variety.  You'll win the majority of their subscribers over.  Add balanced pvp and an endgame and it's a sealed deal.

[tazelbain]

I knew people who played Champians.  They never mentioned the setting once.  I thought it was like Heroes Unlimited and had no specified setting.

[tasmia]

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63478

The meat of the announcement is that Cryptic is indeed going to be coming out with a Champions MMORPG called Champions Online, probably due out in 2009, though that is a WAG on my part. In an interesting twist, rather than Cryptic licensing the Champions Universe from DoJ, they are buying the Champions and Dark Champions IP (except Harbinger of Justice ), and as part of the deal are licensing the rights to print RPG books for those IP back to DoJ in perpetuity (and DoJ doesn't have to pay for it).

DoJ and Cryptic will be working closely together to help insure that any changes to the CU for Champions Online get reflected in the CU books that DoJ will be publishing. Both content-wise and appearance-wise.
Important Note: Cryptic is NOT buying the Hero System IP, just the Champions and Dark Champions IP.

Another Important Note: Champions Online will not be a Hero System MMORPG. My understanding is that Hero is planning on releasing a guide to allow players of Champions Online to recreate their characters in the Hero System at some point after CO comes out, but that it will NOT be using the Hero System itself.

Cryptic has also licensed the Hero System from DoJ so that they can use HERO terminology to describe things. Cryptic has also said that their plan is that CO will have an unprecidented level of customizability in character creation. There is the chance that if Cryptic and DoJ agree that the level of customizability is up to the standards of the HERO System the game may also get hung with the title of HERO Online. Though DoJ retains the right to say "no" on that.

One of the design features that Darren mentioned that Cryptic is looking at implementing that would allow you during character creation to create your own nemesis.

There is also every chance that there will be DoJ produced books that have bits and peices that will be useful for the CO players. Behind the scenes type things.

Oh, and Important Thing: DoJ will be getting access to Cryptic Studios art for publishing in their books.

Important Note from Steve: HERO 6th will in no way be "dumbed down" to make it more appealing to MMO players. I'll note he says this as an MMO player himself.

Also:

There was some stuff and some nice looking screenshots from the Game Informer article:

# The game has classes, but every class has access to every power. Class defines how many points each power costs for your character.

# Graphics are a 3D/cell shading hybrid that Cryptic calls "comic shading".

# The underground arena circuit allows PvP.

# Only heroes at launch. Dark Champions as an expansion later.

# Fully customizable characters AND powers AND movement types(floating,running on four legs).

# Secret identities.

# Customizable arch-nemesis. If you ever decide to kill off or incarcerate your AN, you get to create a new one.

# The game will take place world wide, not in just one city.

# Planned zones: underground cities, dinosaur-infested island, secret desert military base.

# The game has been created with Cryptic's proprietary game engine called "Game Tech".

# The game will also include voice dialogue and cutscenes.

# Scheduled for a 2009 release.

[Montague]

Goddammit. I knew Cryptic would throw something up there to give us hope. Somebody must be reading the board.

Must resist fanboying out on this...

Edit - megaprops to Steve for not pulling a WOTC on 6th edition. No talent trees in my Champions, kthx.

[UnSub]

Tasmia beat me to it.

Apparently the screenshots et al won't be released until Wednesday when they appear on the Cryptic site.

I agree. City of Heroes/Villains is about all the comic book MMO's the marketplace is likely to support. They hover around 150k subs, its a good casual game, and a new comic book MMO is going to have to offer radically different gameplay to make people move from COH.

Like DAOC and WoW offered radically different content from EQ?

A lot of people here seem confused by the Champions IP. In reality, it's pretty unimportant. If it helps, think of this MMO as CoH 2.0, where the dream is Cryptic take everything they learned from CoH and refine that into a new game.

Power customisation and full character customisation will be huge selling points for this MMO. If costume customisation was CoH's killer app, then full customisation will be even more so for ChampO. I'll be interested to see how the 'classes but with full access to powers' system works out.

EDIT - And apparently Cryptic plans to self-publish all their MMOs from now on (which I've known they've been moving to for a long time). As I said before: either inspired or insane.

[WayAbvPar]

# The game has classes, but every class has access to every power. Class defines how many points each power costs for your character.

WHY???

Jesus fucking christ, will anyone ever make a skills-based MMOG ever again? Is it really that hard to create some skills, take a whack at balancing them, then release them to the wolves in alpha/early beta to find the unbalancing bits?

Trust your players. They don't need to have their fucking hands held. Let them create something with their imagination, not some archetype.

There are a couple of different ways to do it- EVE style (everyone can get any and all skills eventually, it just takes a lot of time and ingame currency), or UO style- large list of skills, but only a subset are being used/improved (IIRC, Guild Wars was like that too).

Don't make me gimp my character because I want him to have abilities that are 'outside his class'. All we will get is ANOTHER game full of cookie cutter clones.


MEH.

[Margalis]

Hmm...there *are* classes. Lame.

Different costs for different powers means the following: tank classes will have cheap tanking powers and expensive blasting powers, which means the optimal build will be a straight tank.

So you can be creative as long as you are willing to gimp yourself. Otherwise you follow the intended template. Awesome.

Edit: Beaten to the punch! I don't get it, it seems like the power customization feature is the main benefit of the IP and they are dumping it? So what's left?

[Montague]

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Should a character with long range energy blasting powers be able to buy high defenses at the same cost  and same extent as a melee character? I would say not. A Champions GM would nix that, I don't see why the MMO should be any different.

Letting everyone make tank-mages isn't the answer to class-itis.

[Venkman]

I appreciate their position. They had a suddenly huge gaping hole and needed to be in a position to recoup for 2009 fy it sounds like. But nothing written or leaked so far points to anything but the game they already did. In 2009, an MMO for Xbox 360 will still be unique. But given that history, I wouldn't be surprised if that single point of differentiation went away too.

What I think really odd is that they're even going so far as licensing enough rights from the HERO engine to talk about it, without actually, like, using the engine itself. Where's the sense in that?

Classes that can be customized sounds a bit like Ryzom, but there's another game I'm thinking of. Can't divine the name though, not even sure if it was MMO. But you effectively could make any character anything, it was just a question of stat expense.

If this game has any sort of PvP at all, that won't make a difference.

[UnSub]

Don't make me gimp my character because I want him to have abilities that are 'outside his class'. All we will get is ANOTHER game full of cookie cutter clones.

In any char development system cookie cutter builds exist. UO, grand-daddy of freeform charcter development, had the best known cookie-cutter build of all in the tank mage.

I'll wait to actually play the system before deciding if it works or not.

[Margalis]

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt for now.

Should a character with long range energy blasting powers be able to buy high defenses at the same cost  and same extent as a melee character? I would say not. A Champions GM would nix that, I don't see why the MMO should be any different.

Huh? Why would a blaster want high defenses? The reason glass cannons might exist in a game is natural: they fight from far away so they put points into offense.

There is no need to enforce it if you design the game right. it's a natural outgrowth of the rules. But besides, why would a GM nix defense on a blaster? I thought the whole point is that you can choose powers freely. Superman has laser vision and he's practically invincible; same with Silver Surfur.

Now I'm even more confused about what the point is. It's a flexible system that lets you choose powers except GMs won't let you actually do that and neither will Cryptic? Well then...

[UnSub]

What I think really odd is that they're even going so far as licensing enough rights from the HERO engine to talk about it, without actually, like, using the engine itself. Where's the sense in that?

Because they don't want the HERO system, they want the Champions / Dark Champions IP.

... having just seen some scans of the Game Informer article, it looks like Dual Lightsabers will be an available power choice.  

[Margalis]

Because they don't want the HERO system, they want the Champions / Dark Champions IP.

What IS the IP?

Characters? Setting? Name a famous Champions character.

[UnSub]

Huh? Why would a blaster want high defenses? The reason glass cannons might exist in a game is natural: they fight from far away so they put points into offense.

There is no need to enforce it if you design the game right. it's a natural outgrowth of the rules. But besides, why would a GM nix defense on a blaster? I thought the whole point is that you can choose powers freely. Superman has laser vision and he's practically invincible; same with Silver Surfur.

Now I'm even more confused about what the point is. It's a flexible system that lets you choose powers except GMs won't let you actually do that and neither will Cryptic? Well then...

Going way back, this form of power customisation was the original design for CoH. You pick an origin which determines the width and depth of your powers. In later refinements of the system, Cryptic also toyed around with setting 'roles' for the character (i.e. What is the character best at? What are they second best at? etc) but eventually went with ATs because it was a system that stopped players gimping and tank-maging themselves within the same system (or at least made it harder).

The ChampO system seems to be a mix of these - you pick a 'class' which determines overall what you are best at, but then you can pick powers to complement or build out of that shell. If you want to be a pure Blaster, you can, but if you want to have some defence, maybe some hand-to-hand combat, you can also build that in while sacrificing your long-range offensive power.

The point is that any system that offers complete freedom also opens the door to lots of abuses. Champions is a system where a low-point character can be designed who will destroy the universe if they ever use their powers (destroying the universe has a huge negative point cost) unless the GM stops them from being so stupid. Cryptic have had a lot of time to think about how to get such a powers system in place - it'll be interesting to actually design a character under those rules and see how well it works.

[UnSub]

Because they don't want the HERO system, they want the Champions / Dark Champions IP.

What IS the IP?

Characters? Setting? Name a famous Champions character.

Well, there's Seeker, the Australian Ninja... (I wish I was joking about that  )

It's not the IP that's being used to draw players in. The IP is being used as a framework to get the game launched which will then be hopefully good enough to get players involved.

Given the timeline, it's my assumption that when Cryptic lost MUO, they had a superhero game engine with no IP to hang it off. Since they sold off CoH/V, that ship had sailed, and they wanted to self-publish. But it would take time to come up with a whole new universe and characters. A quicker path would be for them to buy an existing IP. Given the PnP RPG history of some of Cryptic's staff, Champions was known to them and they'd already talked to Hero Games before about doing a CoH PnP RPG (that went to Eden Studios in the end, for a net result of one free online pamphlet being released). Champions gave Cryptic what they needed - a world with an established background and characters with designs they could copy that would get their MMO back on track.

So Cryptic bought the Champions / Dark Champions IP from Hero Games so they had complete control over the IP (perhaps the Marvel / Microsoft experience left a nasty taste in the mouth) and now can re-build a world around that.

Someone else can correct me, but I think this is the first time a MMO is going to be based on an IP with minimal player pull due to its name, but that wasn't the point of the purchase anyway.

[Ratman_tf]

Should a character with long range energy blasting powers be able to buy high defenses at the same cost  and same extent as a melee character? I would say not. A Champions GM would nix that, I don't see why the MMO should be any different.

Letting everyone make tank-mages isn't the answer to class-itis.

Why not? The Champions system (and games like that in general) can circumvent high defense with unusual attacks. Gas or radiation. Specific or unusual vulnerabilities. Wouldn't that be more interesting than HPs vs. DPS?

[Montague]

Should a character with long range energy blasting powers be able to buy high defenses at the same cost  and same extent as a melee character? I would say not. A Champions GM would nix that, I don't see why the MMO should be any different.

Letting everyone make tank-mages isn't the answer to class-itis.

Why not? The Champions system (and games like that in general) can circumvent high defense with unusual attacks. Gas or radiation. Specific or unusual vulnerabilities. Wouldn't that be more interesting than HPs vs. DPS?

Sure would. Up until the point you cancel because PVP combat has devolved into special effect Russian roulette.

[Slyfeind]

Why not? The Champions system (and games like that in general) can circumvent high defense with unusual attacks. Gas or radiation. Specific or unusual vulnerabilities. Wouldn't that be more interesting than HPs vs. DPS?

Sure would. Up until the point you cancel because PVP combat has devolved into special effect Russian roulette.

So...PvP is best if there's just one attack and one defense type?

[Nevermore]

The Hero system gets around the problem by simply charging more build points for the armor piercing and resistance circumventing powers.  So you could have a regular high damage attack that may or may not be resisted or lower damage unusual attacks that pretty much guarantee damage but it's always going to be for less damage even when it hits a soft target.  It's a trade-off.

[Velorath]

I agree. City of Heroes/Villains is about all the comic book MMO's the marketplace is likely to support. They hover around 150k subs, its a good casual game, and a new comic book MMO is going to have to offer radically different gameplay to make people move from COH.

Disagree.  There's a lot of people who'd be willing to play a comic book MMO (myself included) who don't play CoH because it's repetitive as hell.

[IainC]

What IS the IP?

Characters? Setting? Name a famous Champions character.

I think the main point of the IP is what it isn't rather than what it is.

it isn't Marvel or DC or random_litigious_comics_publisher_01. They could invent their own IP with minimal effort but they'd risk sailing through the reefs of plagiarism suits. Or they can pick an existing IP no-one's ever heard of* and safely hang their game off that without being any more creatively limited than if they were making it up from scratch.



*People who played obscure PnP RPGs 20 years ago aren't exactly a core demographic. And I say that as someone who played a lot of obscure PnP RPGs 20 years ago.

[UnSub]

What IS the IP?

Characters? Setting? Name a famous Champions character.

They could invent their own IP with minimal effort but they'd risk sailing through the reefs of plagiarism suits. Or they can pick an existing IP no-one's ever heard of* and safely hang their game off that without being any more creatively limited than if they were making it up from scratch.



*People who played obscure PnP RPGs 20 years ago aren't exactly a core demographic. And I say that as someone who played a lot of obscure PnP RPGs 20 years ago.

It's talk like that that means Tunnels and Trolls Online, Paranoia Online and Macho Women with Guns Online will never be a reality. 

[Phred]

What do Cryptic care if they eat into CoH/V's population? They sold that IP to NCsoft. If the talk about the MMO dev watercooler is true, WoW brought a lot of new players into the MMO genre, some of whom will at least check out what a new MMO has to offer. So, weak IP or not, I think ChampO has a better shot at a bigger audience than CoH had on launch.

Two quotes in a row. I need to get to work. 

This has been my "big" question. No doubt the MMOG players will be inclined to check out a new MMORPG, but will the bulk of WoW players give a shit, if it isn't WoW?

Not if Statesman put's in his usual grind.

[IainC]

It's talk like that that means Tunnels and Trolls Online, Paranoia Online and Macho Women with Guns Online will never be a reality. 

Hey, if I had any programming skills whatsoever, then Bunnies and Burrows Online would already be paying for my villa in the sun.

[cmlancas]

Can you include goat shepherding? I also want to put in my Belgian shepherd, Link.

 

[Bokonon]

You know, all these complaints of balance could be alleviated in a comic book setting, IMO, by making powers cause weaknesses when in use? Want to be a rad fire blaster? Cool, but for 5 seconds you have less resistance to water, ice, and wind (for the sake of an example). Make all toggles active use for similar reasons.

Does anyone think this would increase the likelihood of character variety? Or would people just complain anyway?