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Author Topic: How is this an MMO?  (Read 18719 times)
Engels
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on: November 10, 2007, 08:55:45 AM

Can someone explain this to me? I keep on hearing about 'elite settings' and 'beating the game', terms which I normally only hear in the context of either single player or coop (diablo 2 for example) game play.  I've also heard that the chat interface is so wimpy that its barely utilized. How can an MMO even be without global social interaction? Its nigh antethetical to the whole common conception of what an MMO does.

I've not bought the game, and nothing I've read on it adequately explains to me wether this is a persistent world where everyone on-line shares at least the same gathering zones, ala Guildwars, or if its all mini-instances of some sort, or what.

I've read the threads about the bugs, or conversely, about how awsome it is, but none of that means bubkis to me if I don't have a working concept and from everthing I've read, I'm very confused as to why its been put into the MMO forum instead of the simple PC-Gaming forum, which is where it seems to belong.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
Trippy
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Reply #1 on: November 10, 2007, 09:11:37 AM

It's not an MMO.
Cheddar
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Noob Sauce


Reply #2 on: November 10, 2007, 09:49:53 AM

Can someone explain this to me? I keep on hearing about 'elite settings' and 'beating the game', terms which I normally only hear in the context of either single player or coop (diablo 2 for example) game play.  I've also heard that the chat interface is so wimpy that its barely utilized. How can an MMO even be without global social interaction? Its nigh antethetical to the whole common conception of what an MMO does.

I've not bought the game, and nothing I've read on it adequately explains to me wether this is a persistent world where everyone on-line shares at least the same gathering zones, ala Guildwars, or if its all mini-instances of some sort, or what.

I've read the threads about the bugs, or conversely, about how awsome it is, but none of that means bubkis to me if I don't have a working concept and from everthing I've read, I'm very confused as to why its been put into the MMO forum instead of the simple PC-Gaming forum, which is where it seems to belong.

Its not an MMO, it just has "hubs" where people can see each other.  Given time and development it could become what we consider MMO.  Of course the definition authorities will probably bust in here and correct everyone then devolve into punctuation arguments.

Its fun, though.  Get it (the game).

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
tazelbain
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tazelbain


Reply #3 on: November 10, 2007, 11:00:51 AM

It's an MMO like GW.  You can meet up with other players in a world metaphor. 

"Me am play gods"
Threash
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Reply #4 on: November 10, 2007, 11:13:38 AM

I have yet to talk to a single person in game throughout all of beta or launch.

I am the .00000001428%
Falconeer
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Reply #5 on: November 10, 2007, 11:20:41 AM

It's an MMO exactly like Diablo was(n't).

schild
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Reply #6 on: November 10, 2007, 11:58:22 AM

Is this where I'm supposed to say:

A. It's not an MMOG because it's fun.
B. It's an MMOG because it has global chat and MMOGs are just chat rooms.

You pick.
taolurker
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Reply #7 on: November 10, 2007, 12:32:21 PM

I've not bought the game, and nothing I've read on it adequately explains to me wether this is a persistent world where everyone on-line shares at least the same gathering zones, ala Guildwars, or if its all mini-instances of some sort, or what.

The game is trying very hard to be an MMO, but there are huge problems with the system in place that makes it less than functional in reaching this goal.

There are common gathering areas (hubs) and you do share these instances with people, as well as share chat channels, but there's a limit of around 50 persons in any chat channel, common instance, and this can make it exceedingly less social. The lfg and trade channels are seriously hampered by limiting their populations, and then of course the chat interface itself is a huge barrier.

Currently, the chat window isn't showing by default, and although you can turn it on, it turns itself off whenever you zone. The chat window can't be adjusted or moved, the text is barely a readable text or color, and often overlaps the other UI windows which also can't be moved or adjusted in size. In beta the chat window used to be transparent, and would dim after messages appeared, but they changed it on the release patch so now it's either open or closed, which honestly should've been a selectable option someplace.

Is this where I'm supposed to say:

A. It's not an MMOG because it's fun.
B. It's an MMOG because it has global chat and MMOGs are just chat rooms.

You pick.

I certainly don't call what this game has "global chat" and the chat rooms are so quiet that they are basically non-existant, so using the logic applied in your post, no it isn't an MMO.


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schild
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Reply #8 on: November 10, 2007, 12:34:07 PM

Quote
I certainly don't call what this game has "global chat" and the chat rooms are so quiet that they are basically non-existant, so using the logic applied in your post, no it isn't an MMO.

Global chat was a bad choice of words. I meant spatial, you can chat with the people at the connecting hub and areas around it in the general chat channel.

The fact that players don't use it doesn't change the fact that it exists.

It's like saying Vanguard isn't an MMO because no one is playing.

Being shit doesn't change the genre.
geldonyetich2
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Reply #9 on: November 10, 2007, 12:58:33 PM

It costs as much as an MMORPG to subscribe, that's all the qualification I need.

 Ohhhhh, I see.

No matter, really.  Hellgate: London is worth the box price and, if you really get into it, subscribing to.
geldonyetich2
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Reply #10 on: November 10, 2007, 01:06:25 PM

For those of you who have learned I'm a reverse weathervane about these things, a translation is provided gratis:

Quote from: BizzaroGeldon
It matters, but not really.  Fun or no, they should have finished this game.  BIZZARO!
Engels
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Reply #11 on: November 10, 2007, 02:38:13 PM

So, I'm hearing a chorus of voices saying its not an MMO.  No matter how much schild wants to pee on MMOs, should perhaps the subforum be moved to the PC console area?

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
schild
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Reply #12 on: November 10, 2007, 03:33:18 PM

So, I'm hearing a chorus of voices saying its not an MMO.  No matter how much schild wants to pee on MMOs, should perhaps the subforum be moved to the PC console area?

We're not going to play forum shuffle, eventually this thing will be indistinguishable from other MMOGs other than that fun part coming from the chorus.

Staying here.
Trouble
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Reply #13 on: November 10, 2007, 04:01:03 PM

That chat thing is another item on the list of what the game isn't great now but it could be in a few months. They've said they plan on greatly improving it and I believe them, just a matter of time like everything else. Unless you're a huge fanboy or have the urge to kill like in Diablo then give it a few months. It'll be a much better overall game.
Ratman_tf
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Reply #14 on: November 11, 2007, 11:41:43 AM

We're not going to play forum shuffle, eventually this thing will be indistinguishable from other MMOGs other than that fun part coming from the chorus.

Staying here.

It has potential! (Where have i heard that before?)



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Venkman
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Reply #15 on: November 11, 2007, 12:14:09 PM

I don't think "MMO" matters anymore. There's just too much variance. It has a fee it doesn't. It has a high or low percentage of public spaces. It has a high percentage or low percentage of chat ranges. At this point, with so many games considered MMO, about the only thing that's a requirement anymore is that it contains some amount of persistence to it.

I realize the history of F13 sorta compels continuing leaving MMOs there own sub-forum. But I've wondered if it couldn't just be moved into PC/Console gaming, mostly because they are PC/Consolle games, and because there's so much overlap here between those who play both to some degree anyway. Oh, and because I don't think the genre deserves any more specialized attention.

Being merely persistent doesn't make these games any better than, say, Portal, TF2 or Crysis, all of which should be experienced by anyone who's got a PC or they're leaving themselves out of goodness. Take some time off from the lewt grind. You won't be sorry.


geldonyetich2
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Reply #16 on: November 11, 2007, 12:22:46 PM

That might not be a bad idea, if only to remind PC developers adding "MMO" in front of it does not suddenly manifest magical fun physics that eliminate all requirement of entertainment.  See, this is why DQ is a visionary, subscription fees and virtual worlds no longer impress him.
Venkman
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Reply #17 on: November 11, 2007, 12:29:10 PM

I agree with most of that except the "visionary" part smiley
jlwilli5
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Reply #18 on: November 11, 2007, 12:36:54 PM

  Nick pickers.... smiley
lots of peaple play it                       M
you can interact with other players  M
its on the intraweb                        O

its ok i still say MMORPG to myself too..

And yes its fun, but I tend to not look for the underlying moral lesson in my hack and slash games so... awesome, for real

edited: forgot to add smiles so as not to offend anyone with my dry humor

Target Erukul 

EvE:
      Lukure
      Karsys
schild
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Reply #19 on: November 11, 2007, 12:39:02 PM

We're not going to play forum shuffle, eventually this thing will be indistinguishable from other MMOGs other than that fun part coming from the chorus.

Staying here.

It has potential! (Where have i heard that before?)

You haven't heard this variety of that. You see, this has potential to be a good MMOG. It already is a fun game. Other MMOGs have to have potential to be a fun game. That's a lot fucking harder.
schild
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Reply #20 on: November 11, 2007, 12:43:36 PM

I don't think "MMO" matters anymore. There's just too much variance. It has a fee it doesn't. It has a high or low percentage of public spaces. It has a high percentage or low percentage of chat ranges. At this point, with so many games considered MMO, about the only thing that's a requirement anymore is that it contains some amount of persistence to it.

I realize the history of F13 sorta compels continuing leaving MMOs there own sub-forum. But I've wondered if it couldn't just be moved into PC/Console gaming, mostly because they are PC/Consolle games, and because there's so much overlap here between those who play both to some degree anyway. Oh, and because I don't think the genre deserves any more specialized attention.

Being merely persistent doesn't make these games any better than, say, Portal, TF2 or Crysis, all of which should be experienced by anyone who's got a PC or they're leaving themselves out of goodness. Take some time off from the lewt grind. You won't be sorry.

Actually, given the development cycle of MMOGs and the amount of discussion that goes in to each and every notable title, this shit will never get thrown in with PC and Console gaming. Look at the WoW forum. Also, look at the number of posts in the MMOG forum. There's been what, 20 maybe 30 titles we've discussed at length in the mmog forum and 200-300 titles in the pc/console gaming forum? And it has that many less posts. It's depressing as fuck, but this genre absolutely requires quarantine.

Your comment at the end made me chuckle. Because you rambled off a few PC games that shouldn't be ignored. I could ramble off 100 PS2 games that shouldn't be ignored. But hey, they get ignored. And this is what I think of that:  awesome, for real
Samwise
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Reply #21 on: November 11, 2007, 01:02:55 PM

It's depressing as fuck, but this genre absolutely requires quarantine.

 Ohhhhh, I see.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Signe
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Reply #22 on: November 11, 2007, 01:20:45 PM

  Nick Pickering is an England footballer who has obtained a modicum of success. 

FIFY 


My Sig Image: hath rid itself of this mortal coil.
Jayce
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Reply #23 on: November 11, 2007, 01:31:54 PM

It seems to me like we need another term for this class of games. It's a definite subgenre, but it's sort of subbed both to MMOGs and to single-player RPGs.

Online lobbies
Non persistent gaming areas
Persistent characters stored on official server
Hosted officially by the developer/distributor, or someone paid by them
Coop or solo play
Sometimes single player (offline) component

 
Lobbied Online Game = LOG?  That'll probably stick about as well as Hedron's Player Interactive Game (PIG) did.

Witty banter not included.
Falconeer
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Reply #24 on: November 11, 2007, 01:46:53 PM

I don't think "MMO" matters anymore. There's just too much variance.

Except there is no variance here. This is Diablo kind of multiplayer. It's 2001 (or so) again. It only has graphical avatarized chatrooms (the hubs) instead of the old irc-like interface but it's actually way less massive than the D2 Battlenet rooms. There, you had a kind of global chat and you were able to see who was online and well.. it was a chatroom but it was kinda massive. Or, at least, it was as massive as this one.

Don't get me wrong. I am loving the game to dangerous levels. I am completely addicted and it's like I am 6 year younger all of a sudden. I am happy. But why some of you are trying to attach the MMO label to this game beats me. Isn't that a mark of infamy after all?

And well, 13 months ago Schild himself corrected me while I was trying to prove that Phantasy Star Online was, after all, 51% MMO.

Quote from: Schild, October 30th, 2006
PSU is more like 10% MMOG.

And you know it. Just look at the strategy guide.

So, if something is 10% MMO, what's the remaining 90%?
PSU was then discussed in the Console/PC Games section of f13.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2007, 01:48:33 PM by Falconeer »

Venkman
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Reply #25 on: November 11, 2007, 03:43:18 PM

Quote from: Falconeer
Except there is no variance here.
Except the graphics, which also means the UI. It is definitely updated, a modern Diablo 2.

But I wasn't talking about HG:L. "MMO" canvases all sorts of crazy titles, from fully contrived spaces like this one all the way to no-rules open ones like SL. It's just a fairly narrow segment that gets most of the conversation here, which to schild's point, is rightly "quarantined" smiley Partly because there's so much emotion in it (nobody cares nearly as much about Kaneva as they do about SWG), partly because there's a lot of attention on it as the big moneymakers, and partly because we're a veteran community newbies eventually find with a long history.
Hoax
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Reply #26 on: November 11, 2007, 03:54:22 PM

Its not a MMO, in fact you play less with other people then you ever did in Diablo.  I find it harder to motivate to play this over TF2 most of the time because I can't find some random guy and duo a long run like I always did back in the D1-2 days because this game is essentially forced solo'ing due to chat & as usual its hard to find someone who is EXACTLY the same level/quest/l33tness as my character from the pool of people I know. 

That pool is hard to even fathom because the guild system, isn't really a system persay, its like the ANTI-system if you catch my drift.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
-William Gibson
stu
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Reply #27 on: November 11, 2007, 04:07:00 PM

Can you group with people after meeting them at the hubs and then enter a zone together to wipe stages of the game?

Dear Diary,
Jackpot!
taolurker
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Reply #28 on: November 11, 2007, 04:20:18 PM

Can you group with people after meeting them at the hubs and then enter a zone together to wipe stages of the game?

To meet people at a hub, requires way more chatting with no responses, jumping up and down, or sending repeated trade requests than is actually worth the effort to make a temporary pick-up group. There's no spatial chat, no way to wave a greeting (or emotes) at people, ,or any chat bubbles, just the horribly broken chat window/interface (which is closed 95% of the time) where you can speak to the "town" or Global chat channels (lfg, trade, chat-##) which all have limited people in them. Sure you can "meet" random people, if one of the 30 or so people in your common hub or chat channel actually sees or pays attention to your text messages, but for the most part count on wiping stages of the game alone.


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schild
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Reply #29 on: November 11, 2007, 04:22:23 PM

Can you group with people after meeting them at the hubs and then enter a zone together to wipe stages of the game?

Yes.
UnSub
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Reply #30 on: November 11, 2007, 05:04:10 PM

We're not going to play forum shuffle, eventually this thing will be indistinguishable from other MMOGs other than that fun part coming from the chorus.

Staying here.

It has potential! (Where have i heard that before?)

You haven't heard this variety of that. You see, this has potential to be a good MMOG. It already is a fun game. Other MMOGs have to have potential to be a fun game. That's a lot fucking harder.

Even schild said that CoH/V was fun for the first 30 days.

But I won't go on about how HG:L is a single player game with delusions of grandeur that also appears to emulate the worst of the MMO genre (<---stopped caring right there) and will wait until it has a free trial to accompany its next content dump before giving it a go.

For the record: had fun with Diablo, got bored with Diablo 2 sometime into fighting in some swamp area. Got bored with Dungeon Runners too.

Ratman_tf
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Reply #31 on: November 11, 2007, 06:23:43 PM

We're not going to play forum shuffle, eventually this thing will be indistinguishable from other MMOGs other than that fun part coming from the chorus.

Staying here.

It has potential! (Where have i heard that before?)

You haven't heard this variety of that. You see, this has potential to be a good MMOG. It already is a fun game. Other MMOGs have to have potential to be a fun game. That's a lot fucking harder.

No, I've heard all that shit too.

Hellgate London is a fun game. (I've been playing it quite a lot latley) It is pretty much unsuited to be a MMOG, because thousands of players will not make it any more fun than it already is.




 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
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