Article comparing EvE and WoW

[Drogo]

I thought this was an interesting article, although I found the comments more interesting than the actual article.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/?p=453

I would really like to see the EvE model tried again in a new game by a different developer. EvE has definitely done some things better than any other MMO, but there are also tons of things that could be done to improve EvE. I like the idea of an EvE done better the way that WoW was an EQ done better.

I only played UO for a few weeks so I never really got into it, but I was surprised by many of the comments that an EvE/WoW hybrid would basically be UO in 1997 all over again. I also laughed at the responses that said SWG was the attempt to do an EvE/WoW hybrid and only the NGE messed it up. One poster suggested that this is what AOC hopes to be and that is what I originally hoped for, but I have my serious doubts about that game now. If it does turn out to be an EvE/WoW hybrid done right I would impressed, but I am not holding my breath. Anyway, I thought it was a good read so I thought I would post it here to get some comments from EvE players.

Edit: I forgot to add, I found this from the Scrapheap forums so many of you may have already read it. I just thought I would post it here for those that do not read about EvE except on these forums.

[MahrinSkel]

The Eve market system, and Empire/Frontier division, could and should go into any kind of game.  The combat system sucks balls (IMO, some people actually like it), but it certainly allows a level of scale that no other game can remotely match.  The industrial system has some clear strengths and a lot more depth than most MMO's, and works well in combination with the market.

The one thing that I have a hard time figuring out if it's an advantage or a downside is the skill system, it does allow late-arriving newbies to specialize into useful roles fairly quickly, but it is somewhat disengaged and cerebral.  On the one hand, nothing I can do can really speed things up much, on the other hand I can take long breaks while occasionally logging in to set skills.  Give it a skill que, and I suspect many people would be the perfect customers: Never logging in, but always paying for an account so they're fully skilled up if/when they do decide to come back.

--Dave

[Kail]

...I don’t want to be cut off from older players or newbies by the level-divide...

Huh?  Unless there have been some major changes since I last played, there were still huge barriers in EVE between newbies and veterans.  The biggest being that your newbie ship will get the shit kicked out of it by anything else in the game.  You can't jump in your frigate and sail into a level four mission alongside your buddy in his battleship.  Your buddy can look under his couch and find enough change to kit himself out with a frigate to hang out with you... but how's that different than a high level player helping his low level buddy in WoW?  Yes, you can go anywhere in EVE and there are no "Level 20 Zones" or anything, but that's not because of the skill system, it's because of the way enemies are spawned.  Start throwing battleship class rats around jump gates and it would have the same effect.  There aren't level differences in EVE, but there is still a ton of stuff a newbie can't do, if I'm recalling correctly.

And what's the point in making the distinction between GP and XP?  The only real difference between grinding for ten hours for a million XP and grinding for ten hours for a million ISK is that you can loose the ISK... and then that's implying that the "problem" with WoW is it doesn't have XP debt...?

There are a lot of things that make EVE unique, I think, but a lot of this article seems to be focusing on the superficial differences between the games (offline skill advancement vs. level grinding, great, but they're still just slightly different ways to gate content) and avoiding mention of the major ones ("oh, by the way, when you die, you loose all your items").

[Chenghiz]

The distinction between GP and XP is that GP contributes to an active player economy whereas XP does not. And while large skill differences do exist between new players of EVE and older ones, that gap can be bridged more quickly and with less actual grinding effort in EVE. Skills are just a matter of time, and if you take the specific skills, for instance, to pilot a BS so you can fly with your buddies, it doesn't really take that long. The remaining barrier then is money, and since it's transferable your friends can help you out in that respect easily.

The Eve-in-WoW that they describe differs in that they have no player character differences - a starting player can have as much HP or strength or whatever as a 'max level' character and simply have less diversity of play available. Maybe they can only use maces at the moment and only have one healing spell, whereas the older player has four healing spells and can use swords, axes and maces. This allows them to still have the character progression that so many people find to be an essential part of the MMORPG experience, while allowing them to play with friends at their friends' levels at the very beginning.

[Fordel]

Except that isn't true, there are many skills that flat out increase how much "HP" you have in EVE. Most skills aren't about unlocking new abilities, but gradual power upgrades to existing ones.

The only real difference to the player in the end, is in EVE, you can never catch up.

[Tragny]

...in EVE, you can never catch up.

That's not entirely true, but it does take exorbitantly long to do so. For instance, with Gallente battleship V, drones V, drone interfacing V, heavy drone operations V, and Gallente drone specialization IV, my Ogre IIs do as much damage as those belonging to anyone else in a Dominix(obviously Moros would do more and some oddball spending 20+ days for the ~2% bonus of Gall. drone spec. V). Of course, that took about 88 days to train and is just one segment needed, but pick an interceptor and decide to focus on it and there's a finite amount of time(too long, IMO) that it takes to effectively cap out in character skill in that ship. Other people may have more player skill, but apples to apples in that ship, they won't have a character skill advantage that you can't overcome.

[Comstar]

Eve has so many flaws but because it has no real competition in it's nitch it can get away with them (much like UO did before EQ, EQ did before WoW and WW2OL has with MMOG WW2 Sims). Unfortunately I don't see any sci-fi games on the horizon to do anything about it.

[Chenghiz]

Except that isn't true, there are many skills that flat out increase how much "HP" you have in EVE. Most skills aren't about unlocking new abilities, but gradual power upgrades to existing ones.

The only real difference to the player in the end, is in EVE, you can never catch up.

The Eve-in-WoW that they describe differs in that they have no player character differences - a starting player can have as much HP or strength or whatever

[Ratman_tf]

The Eve-in-WoW that they describe differs in that they have no player character differences - a starting player can have as much HP or strength or whatever as a 'max level' character and simply have less diversity of play available. Maybe they can only use maces at the moment and only have one healing spell, whereas the older player has four healing spells and can use swords, axes and maces. This allows them to still have the character progression that so many people find to be an essential part of the MMORPG experience, while allowing them to play with friends at their friends' levels at the very beginning.

I am of the armchair designer opinon that a game with a low but broad power curve like that would make a lot of balance and PvP and mudflation issues a lot less of a problem, if not outright disappear.

Planetside, for instance. Granted it's an FPS and not an RPG, but that kind of lower, broader power curve applied to an RPG.

And I want a pony, too.

And here is a specific example in eve of how a noob can be playing with the big guys, and meaningfully contributing in a short time: Tackling.

[Vedi]

And here is a specific example in eve of how a noob can be playing with the big guys, and meaningfully contributing in a short time: Tackling.

Given a month of training time, there are many roles you can do in PvP. Tackling is one, but it's quite possible to get into a battlecruiser in a month with basic support skills. You can also train for one of the new T2 ewar frigates or even just a Blackbird and jam people with years of training time. If you want to do missions with your friend doing L4s, just train for a long range cruiser (Caracal for instance). You can usually stay out of danger, let your friend tank and significantly help with the damage.

In contrast, in WoW you need to be level 67 to group with a level 70.

[Krakrok]

The only real difference to the player in the end, is in EVE, you can never catch up.

You can start a noob character in EVE get a T1 frigate or T1 cruiser and EWAR jam a 4 year old character into insignificance. Planetside has the same mechanic. You can't do that in WoW. That is why level based games are giant cockblocks. The higher the level the less powerful you become.

[Ratman_tf]

You could even "hide" a lower power advancement by using bigger numbers with smaller increments in your game system.

For example, in Planetside you have 3 or 4 different suits of armor.

Agile: 50 armor
Standard: 100 armor
Reinforced: 200 armor

So you could have a ka-zillion different suits of armor, ranging from 50-200 points.

Light Agile: 48 armor
Medium Agile: 50 armor
Heavy Agile: 52 armor

Light standard: 90 armor

4-10 or even 20 points of armor isn't going to bork Planetside's system, but would allow people to acquire more "phat lewtz". With certs or crafting or whatever. As long as you don't start adding "Super Uber Reinforced" armor with 10,000 armor points. 

[dwindlehop]

...I don’t want to be cut off from older players or newbies by the level-divide...

Huh?  Unless there have been some major changes since I last played, there were still huge barriers in EVE between newbies and veterans.

I think the big difference since you last played is the massive deflation in the T2 market. A T2-fit Tier2 BC is cost effective, readily affordable, and has a high level of PvP efficacy in a variety of situations. The effects of invention and Tier 2 BCs are pretty much designed to give newer players a decisive role in combat with fewer than 5M SP.

[Kail]

I think the big difference since you last played is the massive deflation in the T2 market. A T2-fit Tier2 BC is cost effective, readily affordable, and has a high level of PvP efficacy in a variety of situations. The effects of invention and Tier 2 BCs are pretty much designed to give newer players a decisive role in combat with fewer than 5M SP.

Oh wreeeeeeeally?  Now that is nice to hear.  I may have to resub, now.  I really miss my Assault Frigate; had a ton of fun with it for the week or so it survived, and then I realized it would be something like a month before I'd be able to afford a replacement, after I got it popped.

[MahrinSkel]

Tier 3 BS help as well, there are a couple of them that can reach 150km "sniper" range without T2 guns and ammo.  Interdictors don't take really extreme skills either, and they are *very* important in fleet maneuvers.  And I've never heard an FC complain that he had too many Covert Ops.

--Dave

[Ratadm]

Tier 3 BS help as well, there are a couple of them that can reach 150km "sniper" range without T2 guns and ammo.  Interdictors don't take really extreme skills either, and they are *very* important in fleet maneuvers.  And I've never heard an FC complain that he had too many Covert Ops.

--Dave

I can only think of the rokh being a t1 sniper and it seriously has no damage at those ranges with t1 ammo, you would probably be better off in a tackler such as an inty or dictor than a t1 fit rokh.

[Comstar]

Oh wreeeeeeeally?  Now that is nice to hear.  I may have to resub, now.  I really miss my Assault Frigate; had a ton of fun with it for the week or so it survived, and then I realized it would be something like a month before I'd be able to afford a replacement, after I got it popped.

AF prices and other tech 2 ships haven't dropped *that* much, AF's cost about 10-20mil still. What DID drop is tech 2 mods: Cap Recharger II's that were 20mil (the same price as a Faction one) are now about 2 mil.

Also implants are dirt cheap compared to before: +4s are about 15-20mil, +1's under a mil etc.

[Kamen]

The only real difference to the player in the end, is in EVE, you can never catch up.

If you simply can't stand being behind older players skill point wise you can legally purchase a character on the forums from another player using isk.  The selling player pays the $20 transfer cost.

It's not necessary IMO, but you can "catch up" if you're willing to save up and spend the isk.

[Endie]

Tier 3 BS help as well, there are a couple of them that can reach 150km "sniper" range without T2 guns and ammo.  Interdictors don't take really extreme skills either, and they are *very* important in fleet maneuvers.  And I've never heard an FC complain that he had too many Covert Ops.

--Dave

I can only think of the rokh being a t1 sniper and it seriously has no damage at those ranges with t1 ammo, you would probably be better off in a tackler such as an inty or dictor than a t1 fit rokh.

What a wierd thing to say.  A bunch of T1 snipers sitting at 210km are deadly, as CVA show time and time again, increasingly with Rokhs alongside their abaddons, since they relaxed their amarr policy.  RA and Bob both got kickings last week from CVA sniper packs.  I've flown them in fleet battles and loved the effect even with iron ammo: loads of killmails and occasionally even top damage.

Yes, you do more damage with AM.  Obviously.  But groups of snipers sitting half a grid away from a bubble and with some eagles, rapiers and the like to discourage enemy tacklers are awesome battlewinners.

And CCP provide clear evidence that they know perfectly well how overpowered they are, since they're bringing in the TC nerf.

[dwindlehop]

Are there scripts for TC? All I've seen is the sensor booster scripts.

[dwindlehop]

Oh wreeeeeeeally?  Now that is nice to hear.  I may have to resub, now.  I really miss my Assault Frigate; had a ton of fun with it for the week or so it survived, and then I realized it would be something like a month before I'd be able to afford a replacement, after I got it popped.

AF prices and other tech 2 ships haven't dropped *that* much, AF's cost about 10-20mil still. What DID drop is tech 2 mods: Cap Recharger II's that were 20mil (the same price as a Faction one) are now about 2 mil.

Also implants are dirt cheap compared to before: +4s are about 15-20mil, +1's under a mil etc.

AFs are still overpriced, I assume because it's the T2 ship class for carebears. Contrast with Vagabonds. Those dropped from a high of 300M to a low of 80M putting them in the "Dwindlehop can buy some' realm. In addition, they're tweaking the hidden chances on Invention for Trinity, so I fully expect A. T2 ship prices to climb back down from the pre-Trinity surge and B. even more price pressure on the high volume T2 ships.

[Endie]

Are there scripts for TC? All I've seen is the sensor booster scripts.

Yes, you can rescue either the tracking or the range bonus.

[dwindlehop]

Stealth boost to paint!?!!?