MMO budgets and development times

[Venkman]

Build as in planing wood or build as in IKEA?

Big difference. 

[HaemishM]

Not if you're an employee for a really real life company that's making you build your own goddamned office furniture. That's amateur hour shit there.

[geldonyetich2]

I don't know... making your employees build their own furniture sounds like the game industry I know. 
With any luck, they'll design a good furniture building simulator in the process.
Before long, trade skills come to be.

[Venkman]

Not if you're an employee for a really real life company that's making you build your own goddamned office furniture. That's amateur hour shit there.

You've never worked for a small company then, the type that makes up most of America's economy? "Many hats" doesn't just mean one does both programming and some art work 

[DarkSign]

Can an a garage MMO be made? Yep. Minons of Mirth proves all you need are 3 people who are dedicated.  The problem is that people on indie dev teams dont usually stick with a project - most of the same work is done on mods, but those have shorter lifecycles because everyone knows it's about learning or pumping up your demo reel. But the tools are there for it to be done on a shoestring.

[HaemishM]

Not if you're an employee for a really real life company that's making you build your own goddamned office furniture. That's amateur hour shit there.

You've never worked for a small company then, the type that makes up most of America's economy? "Many hats" doesn't just mean one does both programming and some art work 

Actually, I have. I've worked at the companies that make you build your own furniture, or had me set up networking computers. Same company where the paychecks bounced every pay period for the last 6 months I worked there. Most of those companies do not succeed, because it's fucking amateur hour. The ones that do succeed don't do that kind of Mickey Mouse shit for long.

[gehrig38]

But let's have a little fun by working out our own budget for MMO "X", developed solly in America, and starting from scratch.

Administrative Costs

Office Infrastructure
   Rent
   Furniture
   Supplies
   Utilities
   Fun Money / Misc Cash box
   Signage

Anywhere from 20-70$ a square foot depending on where you start the business.
The furniture supplies, utilities is a ever growing never ending expense.
No such thing as fun money...
Signage? In the grand scheme of things a totally miniscule amount.

Salaries
   CEO - 60k
   CFO - 60k
   CTO - 60k
   Lead Programmer 60k
   Art Lead 55k
   Content/Writing Lead 55k
   World Building Lead 55k
   Sound Lead 55k

Holy crap! Take the top three salaries and at a minimum triple them, a minimum. That's if you're hiring someone that's accomplished and reputable. Someone that has achieved before and knows what the hell they are doing.
Lead Programmer is probably half of what a real lead would make. Same with the art lead. Other leads are a wide range of numbers depending on the credentials.

   3x Junior programmers (including networking, client, and database programmers) 55k
   10x asset modellers  35k
   5x animators  35k
   5x texture artists 35k
   5x world builders 35k
   3x content writers/ quest scripters 35k
   2x Press Relations people 35k

If this is a real MMO, not a huge one but a real one, I'd argue that you are dealing with at least 5-10 more engineers.
You basically have 20 artists. I know we are very early on in the process and we are currently at 13 split between character, environment and animation. I would imagine an art team ending up at 40ish or so, probably more.
3 "content writers", you mean designers? Ugh I am saying that's horrifically low. Also, 35k is an entry level non experience salary. Your "asset modelers" "texture artists" and "animators" are all artists. Good ones, talented ones, start at 60ish and get up in the 100s for the truly good to great ones. Designers run the gamut. Great ones make more than double what you are talking about, others make much more than that.
Press relations people? For a true MMO that you are taking to market and hoping to be successful it's a number so far beyond 2 I am not sure where to start. Not to mention your 'press relations' people are incredibly well paid, well connected and ridiculously important assets to a successful launch.

Technology Costs
   39 workstations @ 3k
   4 development servers (hardware) @ 4k
   Software licenses 30k-50k
   5x Wacom tablets
   Recording equipment 15k
   Bandwidth for development servers
   Bandwidth for live servers
   Engine license - between 200k and 500k

About half the real cost of fully developed workstations, 1/10th the cost to license the software, 1/20th or less of the cost to build out even a small modern audio dept.
Your engine license? Book that licensing one engine STARTS at a million dollars. That's no flat fee either. That's a starting point and for the most part that's not going to get you licensed with an engine that's actually shipped a game.

Publishing Costs
   DVD pressing and printing
   Box printing and handling
   Digital download server costs

Advertising
   Print
   TV - hire Morgan Webb on G4 to tell people it's the best thing since sliced bread
   Intarwebz - $1,000 per 15,000 impressions on IGN
   Game conventions - 5 conventions per year x 3 years of development x 8k-20k each

Ancillaries
   Customer Service
   Paid GMs
   Community Manager
   Back-end billing

MASSIVE expense here. Expense you cannot fathom until you actually sit down and discuss a deal involving one or more aspects of this.

and all that's just off the top of my head. It really couldnt be done well for less than 6 million - and that's assuming you subcontracted all this out to the cheaper subcontractors overseas.

Fun to think about, eh?

I'd argue that to author an MMO, not a HUGE IP MMO, but even a middle of the road amount of content is at the least a 3 year 30+ million dollar job. If you want to do it right. That to me is INCREDIBLY TIGHT and doesn't include any sort of marketing budget. I had no idea the massive undertaking 'making a cool game' was when I opened the doors last year. Scary? Hell ya. Daunting? Absolutely. Doable? You bet. But understanding the financial landscape was something that had I not done it BEFORE we signed off on this startup would have destroyed us.

I am in complete agreement that a fully built, tested and thoroughly designed MMO is now the equivelant of making a major motion picture with star talent. If you want to do it right it's going to cost you, but doing it right means a windfall of epic proportions if you team up with the right people and companies.

[schild]

This made me giggle.

Holy crap! Take the top three salaries and at a minimum triple them, a minimum. That's if you're hiring someone that's accomplished and reputable. Someone that has achieved before and knows what the hell they are doing.

We're still talking about online gaming, rite?

[Soukyan]

This made me giggle.

Holy crap! Take the top three salaries and at a minimum triple them, a minimum. That's if you're hiring someone that's accomplished and reputable. Someone that has achieved before and knows what the hell they are doing.

We're still talking about online gaming, rite?

C-crews do not come cheap no matter what the field. A CFO, CEO, CIO, COO do not need to be experienced so much in gaming as their respective specialties. The proper human resources working for each of the executives must be damn good as well. These people can most certainly be attracted to gaming houses with potential. That means a realistic model and a worthy paycheck.

[gehrig38]

This made me giggle.

Holy crap! Take the top three salaries and at a minimum triple them, a minimum. That's if you're hiring someone that's accomplished and reputable. Someone that has achieved before and knows what the hell they are doing.

We're still talking about online gaming, rite?

Hehe ya, the online 'game' that's turned into a multi-billion dollar industry. WoW has made some see the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow as something attainable by anyone putting an MMO into the game space. The peoples salaries being referred to are people that do make a very nice paycheck because demand for the good ones is at an all time high, as it should be. Corral all the incredible dev team talent you want but if you don't have people driving the bus that are passionate, dedicated and totally committed, in addition to other worldly talented, you are on a bus that's never leaving the parking lot.

[Margalis]

Even Curt Schilling is arguing with DarkSign now. 

Edit: 60k for a CEO or a lead programmer is absurd, as is the CEO getting paid the same as the lead programmer.

Edit2: In business "achieved" has a different meaning from everyday usage.

[schild]

Guys.

My comment referred to the "achieved" part. Not the cost or worthiness.

[Morat20]

Even Curt Schilling is arguing with DarkSign now. 

Edit: 60k for a CEO or a lead programmer is absurd, as is the CEO getting paid the same as the lead programmer.

Edit2: In business "achieved" has a different meaning from everyday usage.

Fuck, I work for the government as a programmer and I make much more than 60k, and while there's big money in government contracts it is NOT at the peon level. And my company bills the government for at least twice that for my stellar services. :) And while there's a "Lead" on my title, I don't kid myself and think my skills are nearly as good or indispensable as a lead programmer for an MMORPG, which has many times my department's budget and potential profits.

I didn't see a figure for a DBA, but good DBA's -- and you want really good DBAs, preferrably with MMORPG experience (any sort of real-time, high precision DB work would suffice -- like bank or stock transaction gigs), runs well into six figures. Hell, the Oracle DBA down the hall makes twice my salary.

I know at the peon level the pay for programmers and such in the games industry is peanuts, due to a million applicants for every open job, but for the critical stuff -- not so much. The people with the skill sets you need are in high demand.

[UnSub]

Good to see previous posts didn't scare gehrig38 off.

... we'll wait until 38 Studios release something before we do that then   

[Trippy]

There's a much easier way to estimate development costs which is to use the method VCs use to estimate "burn rate" for software startups. In the San Francisco Bay Area is used to be $10K per headcount per month. Not sure if that's changed in the last few years since I've been out of the startup scene for a while. Boston is about the same cost of living as the Bay Area so 100 people for 3 years comes out to $36 million or close to what Curt estimated. Now of course it doesn't quite work that way since you never start with 100 people off the bat so it's more like 10 people to start for 6 months or so and then things ramp up from there and it'll actually take 4 years instead of 3 which is how you end up with WoW-sized budgets. Note that the 10K per person is not the average salary -- it's the average salary plus benefits plus facilities (per person) plus all the other overhead to run a typical software business.

[dr_dre]

@lum:

you do know they still ask 140 dollars for that book ( used ).
Maybe Ive got to sell my used books to amazone then.
new way of funding my superb idea's on how to create the wow killer :)

[Bunk]

   Game conventions - 5 conventions per year x 3 years of development x 8k-20k each

Having done the convention circuit for a software company for a couple years - figure more like 3 - 4 times that per convention just for floor space, assuming you plan to have more than just one of the little table booths in the third hall. Plus the expense of sending every executive, marketing monkey, IT team... yea pretty much half the company, whether they have a reason to be there or not.

[Lum]

Corral all the incredible dev team talent you want but if you don't have people driving the bus that are passionate, dedicated and totally committed, in addition to other worldly talented, you are on a bus that's never leaving the parking lot.

And don't forget the Aeron chairs and 30" LCD monitors. I'm not sure how you mount those on buses, but talented people will find a way.

And yeah, Mr. Schililng's salary and expenditure figures are closer to the norm. Although if you triple the lead salaries, like he recommended, you get $150K/yr. If I made $150K/yr I would be dictating this post to a lissome young houri while she fed me grapes.

[naum]

Eh, a quality game can still be done on the cheap…

Don't need more than half dozen individuals… …no office necessary, just rent a 2-3 BR apartment (or home if cheaper), some doors and cement blocks can serve as computer desks… …most important assets are skill and time — talented art guy + programmers + sales guy/gal… …of course you need to eat while you're developing this wonder-ment and you + family (a detriment because they can keep you away from work!…) need health care and your bills gotta be paid…

My Mom is the landlord for the ATiTD fellows and their digs are far from spectacular though they are right across from an Eat-n-Park and down the street from Vinnies and Pizza Palace…

[Murgos]

The thing about game development is that you are expected to be committed to it to the point of doing without the comfort of, say, a pleasant work environment.

It's one thing if I have a stake in the company and will realize some of it's income as my own.  It's a totally different one if I'm just a hired gun.  Underpay me AND have me work in a shit hole?  Nope, not gonna happen.  Not when I can get a job tomorrow that will pay 'the going rate' in a professional, clean and well equipped environment.

[Venkman]

Eh, a quality game can still be done on the cheap…

You're absolutely right. However, someone who can get the sort of money that is spent on an EQ2 or a LoTRO isn't looking to "just" do a near-hobbiest experience like ATiTD (which I very much agree is a great game, it's just wasn't ever intended to be a AAA title).

[DarkSign]

Even Curt Schilling is arguing with DarkSign now. 

Edit: 60k for a CEO or a lead programmer is absurd, as is the CEO getting paid the same as the lead programmer.

Edit2: In business "achieved" has a different meaning from everyday usage.

Way to mischaracterize. He's not arguing like you and I are. And I stated that all my figures were conservative, spit-balling, whackadoo bullshit.
Are you so intent on being a douche that you have to just make up bullshit?

[Morat20]

Corral all the incredible dev team talent you want but if you don't have people driving the bus that are passionate, dedicated and totally committed, in addition to other worldly talented, you are on a bus that's never leaving the parking lot.

And don't forget the Aeron chairs and 30" LCD monitors. I'm not sure how you mount those on buses, but talented people will find a way.

And yeah, Mr. Schililng's salary and expenditure figures are closer to the norm. Although if you triple the lead salaries, like he recommended, you get $150K/yr. If I made $150K/yr I would be dictating this post to a lissome young houri while she fed me grapes.

Well, assuming game developers get benefits -- health insurance, vacations, holidays, etc -- odds are your actual "cost" to the company is a third again to half again higher than your salary. Of course, I bet you don't get overtime, so that probably works out for the company. :)

But when you budget, you have to budget for ALL the costs associated with an employee -- their salary plus the basket of goodies associated with them.

So even if 150k is a dream salary for you, if you're making close to 6 figures, you're probably costing the company close to that amount.

DarkSign: If you really want to play with costs, go download COCOMO II and toy with it. It's free, it's fairly self-explanatory, and at least for direct development costs will give you a semi-decent range of numbers, especially if you dig around and find accurate input ranges.

[DarkSign]

DarkSign: If you really want to play with costs, go download COCOMO II and toy with it. It's free, it's fairly self-explanatory, and at least for direct development costs will give you a semi-decent range of numbers, especially if you dig around and find accurate input ranges.

Will do. Much appreciated.

[gehrig38]

Corral all the incredible dev team talent you want but if you don't have people driving the bus that are passionate, dedicated and totally committed, in addition to other worldly talented, you are on a bus that's never leaving the parking lot.

And don't forget the Aeron chairs and 30" LCD monitors. I'm not sure how you mount those on buses, but talented people will find a way.

And yeah, Mr. Schililng's salary and expenditure figures are closer to the norm. Although if you triple the lead salaries, like he recommended, you get $150K/yr. If I made $150K/yr I would be dictating this post to a lissome young houri while she fed me grapes.

Well, assuming game developers get benefits -- health insurance, vacations, holidays, etc -- odds are your actual "cost" to the company is a third again to half again higher than your salary. Of course, I bet you don't get overtime, so that probably works out for the company. :)

But when you budget, you have to budget for ALL the costs associated with an employee -- their salary plus the basket of goodies associated with them.

So even if 150k is a dream salary for you, if you're making close to 6 figures, you're probably costing the company close to that amount.

DarkSign: If you really want to play with costs, go download COCOMO II and toy with it. It's free, it's fairly self-explanatory, and at least for direct development costs will give you a semi-decent range of numbers, especially if you dig around and find accurate input ranges.

Trying to assess benefits is another factor for sure. One of the things I promised members of this family was total commitment. Our benefits package is total health coverage. No deductible full dental, vision and more. That tends to run somewhere near 35-40%  of the employees salary. So ya, when you factor in payroll, and you are projecting, I always added, at a minimum, 40%.

[WayAbvPar]

Our benefits package is total health coverage. No deductible full dental, vision and more.

That is a damned good way to get and keep quality employees. Many people don't account for this when comparing jobs; just looking at salaries doesn't cut it.

[HaemishM]

Our benefits package is total health coverage. No deductible full dental, vision and more.

That is a damned good way to get and keep quality employees. Many people don't account for this when comparing jobs; just looking at salaries doesn't cut it.

I agree. You should be commended for that kind of commitment to family issues.

[geldonyetich2]

Coincidentally, I wrote some things on this and decided I'd rather developers make small budget niche titles for me than big budget titles that only a bloated casual gaming market populated by apparent idiots can afford.

[Morat20]

Our benefits package is total health coverage. No deductible full dental, vision and more.

That is a damned good way to get and keep quality employees. Many people don't account for this when comparing jobs; just looking at salaries doesn't cut it.

My company -- which has by far the smallest turnover among a bunch of similar contract-based companies around here, has a similar motto. Their healthcare is solid -- not as nice as that, but top-tier for big companies. What they do, however, is offer practically unlimited sick days (you DO have to get a doctor's note if you're out past a certain point, and they do automated audits to find out if you're routinely sick on Fridays. But if you get sick, they want you to get better -- not worry about missing work). They offer outstanding educational benefits -- two classes a semester, don't have to be related to your job, and they pay for tuition, fees, and books (up front). And you get a large bonus for any degree, as long as they're more than two years apart. Their vacation offers are generous, and they refuse to carry them over -- they insist that you use all your vacation each year. (It's a big problem in this industry, where people will bank 400+ hours of vacatioin -- usually in case they get really sick).

There's a bunch more -- their salaries are slightly higher than the average, for instance. But mostly they've worked out that they keep good employees if they treat their employees well, rather than as people that can be replaced at a moment's notice.

[Margalis]

It's amazing what some companies will or won't do to keep employees.

I interviewed a guy once who quit his job because his company didn't appreciate the employees. The only example he could come up with was that they had a free soda thing going then scrapped it. That sort of gesture costs nothing but means a ton to employees.

Obviously health care plans and such cost a lot, but constant turnover is death for a company as is lower-quality workers. In software at least a really good employee is worth five normal employees. Anything you can do to find and retain top talent is worth it.

Curt Schilling is serious about taking care of people, both at work and in his charity work. He is one of the genuinely good guys.

Edit: Even if he did put ketchup on his sock. 

[Venkman]

Even with the Everyone Must be Insured law in Massachusetts, he is going above and beyond.

But this is just another example of real changes coming from outside the establishment.

[Ratman_tf]

There's a bunch more -- their salaries are slightly higher than the average, for instance. But mostly they've worked out that they keep good employees if they treat their employees well, rather than as people that can be replaced at a moment's notice.

Oh, I could rant and rant. But I'll just say "Agree emphatically"

[Draegan]

I need to win the lottery so I can become Johnny GameCo President.  Seems like a fun ride. 

I only studied Engineering in college and got into sales.  I wish I could of parlayed that into game design.  Sounds like an entertaining industry.  Oh wait I just remembered stories of 400 hour weeks for QA slaves.  I'll stay where I'm at, nevermind.

@Lum
This is a month late, but that was a damn funny post.  Cheers.

[Slyfeind]

I only studied Engineering in college and got into sales.  I wish I could of parlayed that into game design.  Sounds like an entertaining industry.  Oh wait I just remembered stories of 400 hour weeks for QA slaves.  I'll stay where I'm at, nevermind.

Even in that respect, there's been a trend towards more reasonable conditions. I think it's because a lot of those young developers aren't so young anymore, are having families now, and want to spend their weekends playing Nintendo with their wee ones. :)

[Bunk]

Edit: Even if he did put ketchup on his sock. 

I just thought I'd say congrats to gehrig38 for not being in the news today.