Street Fighter IV

[Velorath]

There is still a dedicated, albeit terribly small scene for TMNT:TF (for the SNES) They are almost all east coast players, they have a thread at SRK and a bunch of tourny/match vids on youtube. The SNES TMNT:TF was pretty good and fun.

I enjoyed it, although now I don't remember if it's because it was a good game or if it was just because I liked TMNT back then.  I think it's biggest downside was that they only put Casey Jones in the Genesis game.

Also, it looks like Capcom is saying that SFIV is still more than a year off (not really surprising anybody I'm sure), and that they haven't decided yet what systems they'll be releasing on.

[Hoax]

Yeah, I thought that Powerstone comment was stupid, but to each his own...

Powerstone any 3 videogame-competent friends could sit down be told: "yah you can interact with almost any part of the map, get the crystals and you become uber" hand them a DC controler and have hella fun playing 4 players and anyone stood a chance of winning.

I call that 100% no strings attached fun.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Hoax: That is fine if you think that. But you are wrong. Flat out. Power Stone was not as good as any SF game. You keep playing it though, if you are having fun that is all that matters.

[Salamok]

Is there any way we can get Hammer Frenzy to wear this and somehow attach it to this thread for it's input?

[Margalis]

That screeny looks like street fighter 2 with updated graphics. Pass. How can you get so riled up?

That's exactly what it is  - an HD redrawn SF2. That isn't a SFIV pic, it's a pic of SSFT2T:HD

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Is there any way we can get Hammer Frenzy to wear this and somehow attach it to this thread for it's input?

Who the hell is this chump? 

[Salamok]

Is there any way we can get Hammer Frenzy to wear this and somehow attach it to this thread for it's input?

Who the hell is this chump? 

Who cares I just helped keep your precious SF4 thread alive for a couple more days.  After seeing you post the same response for the 3rd time I figured you needed some help with that.

[stray]

That screeny looks like street fighter 2 with updated graphics. Pass. How can you get so riled up?

That's exactly what it is  - an HD redrawn SF2. That isn't a SFIV pic, it's a pic of SSFT2T:HD

That's a good thing though. SF artwork hasn't been updated in awhile. Now all the old faves will look better than GG

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Salamok: What the hell is your problem jerk-wad? No one asked you to post in here so get lost scum bag. 

Stray: I am happy they are redoing the art. It looks pretty good so far. There was a couple of stinkers they put out (sprites) but so far it looks like it will be nice. They also mentioned that the GUI is going to be completely redone and that the music is also getting an overhaul. If the net coding is good, this title will be a monster.

[Ookii]

Salamok: What the hell is your problem jerk-wad? No one asked you to post in here so get lost scum bag. 

You can rest assured his daugther is being crushed under an endless stream of pumpkins.

We should have a f13 SF2 tourney with that fantastic netcode you're talking about and see who has the right to force their fighting game opinion upon the masses. (I realize the netcode probably doesn't work for SF2)

[Salamok]

Salamok: What the hell is your problem jerk-wad? No one asked you to post in here so get lost scum bag. 

You can rest assured his daugther is being crushed under an endless stream of pumpkins.

We should have a f13 SF2 tourney with that fantastic netcode you're talking about and see who has the right to force their fighting game opinion upon the masses. (I realize the netcode probably doesn't work for SF2)

Well given the merest hint of a whiff of vapor that sparked this thread I would say it would be more appropriate that we all sit down and create our own anime that describes how we might kick everyone else's ass in a game that solely exists in our imagination.

[Velorath]

That screeny looks like street fighter 2 with updated graphics. Pass. How can you get so riled up?

That's exactly what it is  - an HD redrawn SF2. That isn't a SFIV pic, it's a pic of SSFT2T:HD

That's a good thing though. SF artwork hasn't been updated in awhile. Now all the old faves will look better than GG

Yeah, I was definately happy when they brought in UDON to re-do the characters.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Ooki: I am not forcing my opinion on anyone. I stated what I like and what I think about games that have been brought up. When people went on about how SF EX games suck I said I like them, and they can like whatever they want. When people said Power Stone was better than SF I disagreed and then said they can like whatever they want. I am not trying to tell people what they need to play and what is good and bad. I just like talking about fighting games, and you know better than most people here do, I play anything, but especially fighting games, so it is not like I an trying to be jerk.

Salamok: this has nothing to do with whether or not we can beat each other at whatever random fighting game, it is a thread about the announcement of SF IV. There may be speculation and talk about other franchises and other SF games, You just came out of nowhere with you asshole laser. Cut your shit, if you want to talk fighting games that is cool, if you are just gonna jump in and be a punk, get lost.

[Hoax]

Hoax: That is fine if you think that. But you are wrong. Flat out. Power Stone was not as good as any SF game. You keep playing it though, if you are having fun that is all that matters.

!=

Ooki: I am not forcing my opinion on anyone. I stated what I like and what I think about games that have been brought up. When people went on about how SF EX games suck I said I like them, and they can like whatever they want. When people said Power Stone was better than SF I disagreed and then said they can like whatever they want. I am not trying to tell people what they need to play and what is good and bad. I just like talking about fighting games, and you know better than most people here do, I play anything, but especially fighting games, so it is not like I an trying to be jerk.

You elitist moron.  Don't get me wrong I see and understand the appeal of tourney level no-scrubs-allowed play.  I've been involved in it playing Tribes1, TA & some other rts's, table top games etc.  But if you tried to l2read you would have noticed the point I was making about Powerstone is it IS FUN FOR EVERYONE PLAYING AGAINST ANYONE.  You really can't be a total scrub in Powerstone unless you just suck at games entirely.

But in your mind only tournament level EXTREME HARDCORE gaming seems to exist.  You missed the key point, nobody said "good" we said "fun".  Which makes you an idiot, idiot.

[Salamok]

...I am not trying to tell people what they need to play and what is good and bad...

Seems very much like you are trying to tell people what is good and bad.  Also, seems like you have enough experience in the fighting game niche to present a respectable informed opinion on the matter.  So I am not sure why you are getting so defensive about it.

I came here to post what I thought was a somewhat relevent peice of gaming hardware in a usefully cynical manner.  

I guess I wasn't relevent, useful or cynical enough so point taken you can quit being a complete jack assnow, i'll slink off quietly as I don't care quite enough about the genre to belabor it's points with a raving fanatic.

[Margalis]

Powerstone is just a different experience.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Hoax: Correct you did say it would never be as fun, or more so you "QFT"  Look they are different kinds of games but if you want to go tit for tat you know that a huge majority of people that play SF play casually, so they are playing for fun. I believe that, as I stated before, novice level SF is really fun as is intermediate and advanced level SF. MANY MANY MANY more people play SF for fun than PS so get that out of your head. The numbers are there, but liking PS is not bad at all. I love PS but I think that PS is not as good as Sf at a low level of play or a high level of play. I think this cause no one plays it and no one cares if it makes a comeback or not. No one jumped to get PS for the PSP, and as shitty as that is, it is because people just don't play it as much, but people keep buying SF games, and they play the hell out of them, and most of them are casual players just having fun.

I don't in any way think that SF is only for high level play. I have a LOT of friends who only play casually and that is cool. i would rather have a batch fuck of casual players who may decide to practice and get better, keep playing and eventually raise their skill level, rather than a small dedicated group that is good but doesn't expand and find new players. It would be counter productive for me to only think about fighting games at a high level play.

Listen you can call me all the names you want, I haven't told  you are an idiot, an elitist moron or a fucking punk scrub who plays PS cause he can't hang in SF. Cause that is not true, you play what is fun for you, and that is cool. Really, I only post here cause so many gamers shy away from fighting games, ESPECIALLY playing at a higher level in fighting games. And I DO think it is because assholes at the arcade busted asses and took names assuming it was the best thing to do, rather than teach others to play and grow the community. But I am willing to play ANY fighting game with ANYONE just cause I like fighting games so damn much.

So I am sorry if you think I am being an ass with you, but I think I can say that I think someone is wrong about something.

But let me phrase it in a way that would sound as jerky.

I don't like PS nearly as much as SF.  In my opinion it is not nearly as good of a game as SF at any level of play. But all that matters is you have fun, and I am glad you enjoy playing it.

[Velorath]

I think this cause no one plays it and no one cares if it makes a comeback or not.

Yeah, but it's a franchise that has so far only appeared on the Dreamcast and the PSP.  Of course nobody is playing it.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Velorath: It had a good run in the arcade in Japan and a PC release. Regardless, It would never have done well because of the other casual fighting games. It is a shame really cause it was fun.

[Velorath]

Velorath: It had a good run in the arcade in Japan and a PC release. Regardless, It would never have done well because of the other casual fighting games. It is a shame really cause it was fun.

I wouldn't say that it could never have done well, I just think it came at the wrong time and on the wrong system.  If they improved on the formula a bit and threw in more recognizable characters like they did with the SF Vs. games, it would almost be like a Capcom version of Smash Bros. in a lot of ways.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I think that they would really have to refine the system heavily cause Smash is a whole lot deeper and more complete of a game than PS. I think that a party brawler with some depth with a bunch of Capcom characters would be awesome though. I know they kinda tried the party brawler/ platformer thing with that Onimusha Blade Warriors, which from what I heard was pretty poor. I think throwing in characters from cool games like Strider,Megaman, Bionic Commando, Resident Evil, Deviil May Cry, God Hand Etc. They could get some awesome stuff going, ESPECIALLY if the game play was really simple but fun, balanced and deep at the high level. (if you wish to play that way) I would really like it if it was like a mix of SF and Smash, and fast...With teams! Ja ja....

[BigBlack]

No easy mode, no casual friendly crap.

LOL.

It's for this reason that I consider traditional fighting games to be one of the most regressive genres around - and why I give much more respect to more progressively-designed fighters like the Smash Brothers series (though the discovery of glitch techniques in SSBM, such as wavedashing, and some clownshoes-level balance issues fucked that one up in a lot of ways that Brawl will hopefully rectify).

A game that simply expects *you* to put in the time and initiative to improve - practicing arcane techniques, fighting other similarly obsessive mouthbreathers in an arcade somewhere - is inherent fail.  If the mechanics don't actively encourage a casual player to learn from experience and intuitively improve their skills and their game, your game has failed.

Games that stop pretending there's something even remotely impressive about a player putting in 'practice hours' and such to win at them and start worrying about facilitating fun are where the future is at.  Frankly, I think the reason the fighting genre has been so slow to adapt is due to the gaming culture in Japan where so many of these games are produced.  I've lived in Japan and observed their fighting game 'scene', and there are few more pathetic things I've seen in my life.  (Though the national tournament scene that's developed around Smash Bros Melee once UB4R M3CH4N1C5 were discovered comes close)

[Hoax]

Have you never seen the Madden tournaments?  Just.  Eww.

[Velorath]

I think that they would really have to refine the system heavily cause Smash is a whole lot deeper and more complete of a game than PS.

Of course, but keep in mind that the last Power Stone game to come out in the arcade or on a console was in 2000, so of course at this point, Smash is much more of a complete game.  If I'm not mistaken, the PSP game is just a collection of the 2 games, so I'm guessing the gameplay wasn't changed much if at all there.  It would require a lot of reworking, but the framework is there to do something comparable.

[Hutch]

Look! Someone read this thread, and made a comic about it!
God Mode

[schild]

Wow, so I just read through some of God Mode.

It's really, terribly unfunny.

[Hoax]

Same, some drawn boobies made me try to read sorethumbs later, and that sucked possibly even worse.  Bad webcomics are bad.

[BigBlack]

My girlfriend used to be a fan of Sore Thumbs, so she'd link me every so often and I remember it being pithy and amusing.  AFAIK they've been in a relatively humorless rut for a year or so, but I checked in to the most recent ones and this one was decent, at least.  I think they did some  reboot of the series that changed everything for the worse.

These days I read PBF and Dinosaur Comics, and that's about it.  Very few people doing interesting things with webcomics these days.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

That comic was kinda lame, but it is true that a majority of forums that are talking about this game are really mixed as to what to what they want and what to expect. I hope for the best.

Big Black: Wow, I think you miss the whole reason fighting games are fun. It is fun to play with your friends and almost all fighting games allow that. Unfortunately and fortunately, people get better as they play more. If you make high level techniques set ups and strats easily accessible, it can break game play. To this day I only think that Tekken and Soul Calibur have casual/expert level game play working decently together without completely wrecking the higher level game.

I agree with you that SB is a good way to allow casual fighting game players to get into competitive fighting/brawling games. But it is a bad example. SM is fucking insane at intermediate/high level play. More so than other games because high level play is composed of mostly advanced input techniques and what not. Attempting to explain Wave dashing and L-canceling and dash dancing and the importance of short jump laser, fast fall for Falco's lock down game is way more work than just explaining stuff in Tekken or Soul Calibur. I think this is cause a lot of upper level techniques are just strategic implementation of what you already know in games like SF, KOF, VF, and Tekken, but in SB you are having to teach them new and more complicated ways of doing what they already know to produce results that are nearly invisible to the casual player, but ultimately can help decide the outcome of matches.

Look at it this way, You will see the occasional Hugo, Q, Remy victory over a Ken, Yun, Chun Li in a Third Strike tourny or casual play, but you will NEVER see a person with with a non wave dashing Mario or Luigi, or non L-canceling Ganondorf beat an advanced level ANYTHING in SB.

Last, I disagree the whole practicing and getting better at fighting games make them suck.And calling people who play fighting games well mouth breathers is kinda pompous. All game genres require you to practice and get better if you want to consistently beat better players. It is silly to assume that you should be able to beat someone that has a better understanding of their character, their match ups and has better execution than you, simply cause you think you know more about fighting or fighting games or cause you think your execution s good. The better player should win all the time unless they play poorly and the less skilled player takes advantage of punishment situations. Game play like as you describe requires an unbalance of risk/reward situations.

Games that play like you mention.. DOA 1-4 fail to attract a large crowd simply because they over-reward players that take advantage of these punishment situations and break the game down to repetitive mix-up, force choice situations. 

I understand your view of the hardcore fighting game scene, but it is not all like Japan. Those guys have a different fighting game community than the states do, and they are willing to put in the time to learn the game inside and out and get their execution down. They win cause they are better, and they are better cause they play like fucking crazy. I can see that this looks lame but all good competitive games are like this. competitive sports, FPS, fighting, RTS, puzzle, all of them have this kind of uber-hardcore scene, but you don't HAVE to play like that to be good or great. But you will if you want to beat those people. But luckily that is not what a majority of fighting game players are doing. They just want to be better than, or keep up with their community and that is not hard to do, nor does it require some ungodly amount of practice time.

I for one appreciate that these games don't put a cap on how good I can get, and allow for advancement based on your knowledge of the game. This is why people still play Super Turbo, 3rd Strike, KOF 98 and old fighting games. Cause you can still get good. This goes for other games like Tetris, Puyo Puyo, Puzzle Fighter, Counter Strike, Starcraft and Madden.   

By the way, I think that PBF is fucking great.

[BigBlack]

Edit: Yes, I know this is a bit of brucing (sowwy), but I felt like I took sentences that got to the core of his points that I wanted to argue against.  Hope nobody thinks I'm taking his argument in bad faith.

Big Black: Wow, I think you miss the whole reason fighting games are fun.

No, no I don't.  Remind me which one of us is the obsessive, again?

I agree with you that SB is a good way to allow casual fighting game players to get into competitive fighting/brawling games. But it is a bad example.

You're missing the point again.  The idea isn't to 'allow' casual players to get into 'competitive' games.  The point is the erase the distinction between the two entirely.

SM is fucking insane at intermediate/high level play. More so than other games because high level play is composed of mostly advanced input techniques and what not. Attempting to explain Wave dashing and L-canceling and dash dancing and the importance of short jump laser, fast fall for Falco's lock down game is way more work than just explaining stuff in Tekken or Soul Calibur.

I already mentioned this, though it's really not quite as bad as you make it out to be -- my girlfriend, the most casual of casual smashers, gets the concept of pillaring with Falco and drillshines with fox even if she can't come close to pull them off.

Again, as I said, it looks like they'll be fixing this for Brawl.

All game genres require you to practice and get better if you want to consistently beat better players.

This is simply not true.  Fighting games are one of the very few genres that makes its controls non-intuitive enough to require practice.  You simply play, and you progress through doing.  Seriously - how fucking retarded is it that you have to press -> | \ Punch to do a Shoryuken?  These are the kind of things that should have been phased out years ago.

The better player should win all the time unless they play poorly and the less skilled player takes advantage of punishment situations.

Er, no.  This is where Smash Brothers finally "got it", and where the tournament scene promptly did their best to 'un-get-it'.  The inclusion of items, stage elements you couldn't control, and just plain *luck* into the process made the game inherently more fun.

Video games are not interesting as a pure 'test of skill', since if you want a test of 'true skill', that's what the real world is for -- you can go out there and test your skill at something that actually fucking matters.  The idea of a video-game that requires you to put the same level of effort into it to succeed as you would into something that actually matters is inherent fail.

They win cause they are better, and they are better cause they play like fucking crazy.

They also fail at life.  Winning at a video game and failing at life are not equivalent things.  And no, I'm not saying "If you're putting enough time into these video games to get good, you must be a loser with no womanfolk" or anything of the sort.  I'm saying that any video-game that asks you to apply yourself in order to 'get good' in the same way that you'd have to to succeed at something in real life inherently fails the notion of what a video game should be -- in the same way a grindy MMO does.

This is why people still play Super Turbo, 3rd Strike, KOF 98 and old fighting games. Cause you can still get good.

There's no inherent reason that a game still having a 'scene' after a decade makes it 'better'.  I'm all in favor of a relatively low 'cap' on how far you can progress, where after that point it's more a matter of luck, happenstance, and being imperfect.  And then, by the time you and all your friends are perfect and it's no fun anymore?  You can play a different fucking game.

The fun of a fighting game (or of any game) is in the mere act of playing, not in the improving.  Getting your jollies from becoming 'better' at something that has zero bearing on the real world is... broken somehow.

Fuck, at least if you practice to get 'better' at soccer, you'll get a decent work-out out of it, maybe improve some real-life motor skills.

By the way, I think that PBF is fucking great.

On this, we agree.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Big Black: I think that the whole, low cap on games and failing at life thing we will have to disagree on. I know plenty of friends who are insanely good at fighting games and have very active social lives and hold down great jobs. Most fighting games don't ask much time, people choose to give that time. There is nothing wrong with a game being deep, there is something wrong with people who choose to focus all their time on learning everything about these games as opposed to allowing the community as a whole to learn the game and share the information, thereby making the community better at the game as a whole, which is how it was when we were growing up playing in the arcade.   Anyway, many games have the input barrier you are mentioning, and while you say your girlfriend is very causal but understands high level SB but can't execute it, that is exactly the point. I think that fighting games strive to both have strategic, meta-game and physical execution based game play. When you look at fighting games, there is almost always a series of "tiers" of fighters based on player skill both strategically, (using a characters various techniques to force situations and attain victory) and players that play better at the input/execution style game -play, (characters with various combos and moves and repeated patterns to win with.) A good example of this is Jacky and Pai from VF. They are relatively much easier to play as characters like Vanessa and Shun Di And especially Akira, but still hold their own against the other fighters. Players don't really have to sink an enormous amount of time getting good and will be able to hang in with pretty decent players.

I am assuming that what you want is easy accessibility to high level stuff for all players, kinda getting rid of the execution part of the formula and focusing more on using techniques and strats, putting more emphasis on who is better at fighting if technique and execution were not a factor. Although I think that this is a pretty cool concept, I am not too sure how his would be implemented. For example, VF has some pretty simple input commands, with the exception of say Akira who has some pretty tough move inputs. The hard part of VF is the sheer amount of situations that a player is put into and the vast amount of ways the player can attempt to defend, counter or escape. The forced situations and the various weighted options make the game deep and some what complicated at a high level for beginning players. IT is not that the players can't execute the commands to escape a particular set up, but they don't know what is the best counter for any given situation.

Tekken and Soul Calibur are the same way. There is not a lot of incredibly difficult command inputs, excluding characters like King in Tekken who has long winded mulit-throws Etc. King is more of an advanced character though, so that is understandable. Tekken has a lot of long winded strings for combos and juggles and what not, but it is all easy to do if you know what strings to use. If you don't all you really need a launcher, which is always easy to do and characters have multiple launchers, and you can mash moves out and get a couple of hits and decent damage. Given this is not the kind of damage you can get if you launched with say Jin in Tekken 5 DR and got a bunch of God fists in there. Those are insane ass combos, but you would be once again, more than able to take of yourself. SO I think that in that aspect a lot of fighting games have a pretty decent amount of accessibility and really ramp up difficulty when it comes up to advanced set ups or advanced combos rather than complicated input.

On the Shoryuken thing. I never really understood why people have such a hard time with those kinds of inputs. making circles on a controller or arcade stick is not hard. But I understand that for some people, if a Hadoken was 2 punches, and a Shoryuken was 3 punches, and a Tatsumaki was 3 kicks and so on, with really simple input, most people would get to the high end level at just the same time. This is cause good SF just like good KOF or VF or Tekken is not just knowing your moves or knowing what button to press when, but it is forcing wins. Either by going in and taking it or by forcing the opponent to do things that will ultimately make them lose because you are preparing to counter against exactly those things. I really can't see how you could get all these techniques and combos and supers and whatever mapped in a way that is super easy to execute, and really it wouldn't matter. Cause you can't map strategy to a button, and you can't have a shortcut for long winded combos and magically make things more accessible. KOT had one super do like 30 hits. It is MUCH easier than manually landing all those hits. (See Guilty Gear) But ultimately the game is still hard cause advanced strats that are hard to do are hard to counter.

Last, yes, other game genres require you to practice. I can't beat Schild at any FPS other than ones I know better than he does. Ever. It wont happen. I have to play and practice to know the levels and get my crap down and counter his strats, otherwise I die. And if I practiced and got better, there is still a chance I would lose cause he is better at FPS than I am. There is a skill to shooting fools int he face and moving and controlling maps and limiting pick ups and knowing which weapons to use at what times. If i jumped on and pounded his ass at U2k4 and never played he would cry shinannigans, and with good cause. Cause he is not practicing but there is not reason that I should beat someone who is outright better than me. There is no fun in completely random bullshit.

Oh and one more thing. I don't think that just cause a game can be deep you should go get good at something else. People don't give people shit for being good at chess or poker (although you can make some sweet mullah here) but if you get good at fighting games you must be wasting your time. Fact is you waste the same if not  more playing RPGs where your time is set, (40 hour games here 100 hour game there Etc) and adventure/ action games or whatever. I guarantee that if you played 40 hours of Virtua Fighter. I would be hard pressed to say that I could sweep you without a second though. I would know that somewhere in those 40 hours you concocted some fucking secret sauce that will cause me a lot of trouble. And the good thing if you would never have to put that much time in cause playing with your friends for fun is the best kind of practice.

But I agree. Soccer is by far better than fighting games. Or any other video game... or sport. tongue

[Righ]

There is no fun in completely random bullshit.

There is for some people. However, most people like gaming systems that mix learned experience with the gaming system with a degree of chance. The very introduction of another player, capable of making potentially unpredictable changes to the game is what makes competitive game play compelling for many people. Its generally more rewarding if the opponent has a reasonably level playing field in terms of skill and/or equipment. Germany vs. England would typically produce a more entertaining soccer match than Brazil vs. St. Lucia.

[Hoax]

Watching hammer get bruce-trolled is sort of funny...


I hate to agree with BigBlack but that was entirely my reason for saying PowerStone is more fun.  The mechanics were so blazingly simple yet the core of the gameplay was environment interaction and awareness.  So basically the game sets the "skill" bar low but the tactics are there when you are playing 4 player ffa though it doesn't shine too well in 1v1.

There are no moves to learn, or anything like that instead its all about trickeration, some luck and having fun.  This is called a fun video game.

There was a time when I played games in that top tier percentile.  Those were the days when I got off school at 3pm and went home and played video games until 1am.  Good times for sure.  But that was a long time ago.  Sure I still look back at playing Tribes1 in the top10 as some of my favorite gaming memories.  But I also had to attend practices 3 nights a week and scrimmage on Saturdays.  We're talking about practice man, practice! /Iverson

So yeah, ultra competitive tournament scenes aren't shit.  The same way that ultra hardcore, burn their towns to the ground and make them quit open pvp isn't shit.  Keep the barrier to l33t low and let people succeed based on some luck, some skill and learning new little tricks.

Example:  You would pwn me in SSB because you know how to wave driver ultra lockdown Starfox w/ the pewpew doom laser of one million cuts.

Example:  Nobody has ever been pwn'd in Powerstone once they've played 5 games because they didn't understand the mechanics.

One of these experiences = more fun then the other.

The point is, I know that in SC3 there is a way to use bugs to cancel a move while still executing it or somesuch nonsense that basically breaks the game and raises it to the next bar.  Yes I've read Sirlin's great article and yes I know its scrubby to say "fuck people who learn how to do that shit"  but fuck them.  Once one person learns that trick now everybody has to learn it OR THEY NO LONGER CAN HAVE FUN.

When you layer on six levels of tricks to get out of scrubville, THE GAME IS ONLY FUN FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE TIME TO LEARN SIX LEVELS OF TRICKS.

You have now officially failed at making a game that everybody can enjoy.  Congrats.  I realize you think its more ub3r.  The same way I think open world pvp makes more sense and is more better in MMO's then some ghey2k sport pvp arena bullshit.  But I'm afraid according to the masses we're both very very wrong.

[schild]

There is no fun in completely random bullshit.

Pu.Li.Ru.La says hello.

[Megrim]

I love how no matter the place, no matter the time and no matter the game in question, the same "you're good at a video game so you must suck at life" idiocy comes up.