Street Fighter IV

[Mrbloodworth]

Didn't Street Fighter stop being relevant years ago?  I mean, isn't this like getting excited for another sequel to Doom?

Theres a new DOOM?!!1shift!!1!

[stray]

M vs C2 isn't for 8 year olds. It's just too much of a mess to get good at in that way. The controls are streamlned, sure, but the roster/tag teaming makes up for it.

[EDIT] Don't hate.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Velorath: Really. Stop talking. SF is not easy. It is easy to get into. Any fucking chump can try to throw a punch, but SF IN PARTICULAR is a very unforgiving fighting game franchise. The gap just between novice and intermediate is a fucking gapping chasm. And if you are saying The vs. is easy to get into, you are right there, but their draw is not their accessability, it is Marvel. Just Xmen v Street is retarded hard to get good at, there is so many freaking set ups and advanced techniques, and don't even get me started on MVC2, that game is all over the place. They may e easy to get into, but this is only because of their inherent instant gratification style game play. You push a button they move and something happens to the other guy. 3d Fighters like Tekken and VF may have more moves and what not but there is all of the same situations and  techniques included in each. So, No, it is not easy to play. It is easy to make it move around and appear like you have some sort of idea of how to engage another person, but that is immediately crushed by any halfway knowledgeable opponent.

On EX, I specifically said, you may not like it, but again, it is a good fighting game. Instead of sitting around talking shit, play it. With other people. Who play it. Till then your opinion is worth absolutely nothing cause you don't know shit about what you are talking about. You can dislike how it plays or it's art style or whatever you want, but saying it sucks just shows how misinformed you are.

I agree it never shared the same fan base SF did, but SF and competitive fighting games in general were not in the best shape at the time, and the way the game played, although good, was more involved than most 2d fighters and LOOKED less complicated than 3d fighters, which made a lot of misinformed people skeptical as to its quality. This is unfortunate cause it is a good fighting game.

Last, quit comparing Doom to SF. Street Fighter was consistantly  good and always updated with ligitimate upgrades to the game play. Whether you were into it or not, or whether you were good enough to notice how different the SFII games are to The Alpha games as compared to the SFIII games and the VS series, doesn't mean they were not well done fighting games. The doom legacy is shit compared to what the SF legacy has made.
   

[schild]

Hammer, the quality of fighting games, unfortunately is shown via how many beginners can get into it and compete at a level that keeps them entertained. Or if the game is entertaining.

Basically, sales.

There's a reason SNK stuff is $70+ in Japan and $20 here.
There's a reason EX Failed. It doesn't really matter if hardcore champions of the genre liked it.

SF was good and as kids, even when we got our ass handed to us, we liked it. And continued to like it. And played and played. The most anyone *I* know spent on the EX franchise aside from you is a big, fat $0.

Also, there aren't enough hardcore fighting gamers to keep arcades alive. It's sad, I know, and I agree with you mostly, but that's just the reality of it. More people play Disgaea these days. And a LOT more people play First Person Shooters. And Doom (much like SFII) is still better than Doom 3 (much like the EX series).

Basically, SFIV had better rock some fucking socks off and I hope it does. Because the genre is on budget life support now. An IV Drip from coconuts.

[Evildrider]

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I completely disagree there. SF EX is not a bad game, you need to come up with reasons why EX sucks before you can devalue it. It was poorly received but it is a completely solid, playable fighting game. The graphics were pretty muh and I can give you that, but the game played well.

Guilty Gear is poorly received, does that mean it sucks too? Rival Schools? Maximum impact 1 and 2? KOF Neowave? KOF 98 on the Dreamcast?

By your Definition, KOF 2006 should have been really well received, it is pretty , easy to play and good. But you and I both know where that went.   

Fighting games in general are on life support, there was no SF for so long cause no one plays them. No company besides SNK put out more poorly received great fighting games than Capcom. SO SF is on life support cause people stopped playing fighting games and it is because they are unforgiving little shits. Fighting games are hard and unrewarding unless you are good. No BS, no casual friendly crap. There has to be some safe haven for that kind of old school game playing mentality.

[schild]

You're missing the point.

Guilty Gear, Rival Schools, MI1 & 2, Neowave and even 98 are fun and interesting for beginners who give them any kind of shot whatsoever. Anyone can get into them a bit. Hell, some of them may STAY WITH THE GENRE afterwards because of them.

EX sold for absolute shite, was not friendly to a goddamn person, was fucking ugly (you're damn right it was) and gave no reason to play it over the original SNES release of Street Fighter 2.

It's crap. You know it's crap. There's no reason whatsoever to play it. There's no reason to have ever owned it, even for completion. It's an embarassment to everyone involved. Please, I don't enjoy talking about bad MMOGs and I don't make any excuses. I don't even make excuses for bad RPGs or turnbased titles anymore. I don't see why you're wasting time with this.

Fighting games in general are on life support, there was no SF for so long cause no one plays them. No company besides SNK put out more poorly received great fighting games than Capcom. SO SF is on life support cause people stopped playing fighting games and it is because they are unforgiving little shits. Fighting games are hard and unrewarding unless you are good. No BS, no casual friendly crap. There has to be some safe haven for that kind of old school game playing mentality.

You bastard, editing while I'm typing.

The good fighting games are rewarding a the extremely noob level. They are, in fact, the reason fighting games are still made. The Soul Caliburs, DOAs and such. At least for America, Japan is a completely different story. Honestly, unless you have some crazy motherfucker from Shoryuken funding you, releasing a fighting game that noobs can't enjoy is retarded. Or put simply: You've forgotten the pure fun of it, I think, given your "unrewarding unless you are good" comment. And it makes it impossible to talk to you - at least online - about fighting games.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Well I can completely agree that EX was very unapproachable, especially EX3. I also agree that a fighting game not being noob friendly is also a hard sell. But a fighting game that is just hard to get into and play not doing well is not unheard of. VF for the longest time was both not eh prettiest 3d fighter and the best 3d fighter for some time. Just recently are people all over how pretty and fun it is. But VF is unforgiving and hard as shit. That game is one of, if not the hardest games to get into. But a game being hard to get into does not make it bad. Seriously you can say you think EX sucks all day, but they didn't suck. They were good fighting games, albeit hard to play. But look at the source, Arika (Akira Nishitani) Ex Capcom, one of the original SF designers, he wanted it to be more old school with big combos and such, and made it that way. It is tough to play and get into, but it is rewarding when you play with other people. I guess I was just lucky enough to be around the fighting game community all my life so there as never a shortage of people to play fighting games with, even if they were ugly, complicated games. EX still had the easy pick up and play stuff, but it was slower paced at the novice level and picked up as you got better. Unfortunately the graphics were not a style that sat right with people so it fell on its face. Again Good game, poorly received. It may not belong in your collection, but you can bet your ass that as a lover of good fighting games, I own all 3 and still play them. Now quit talking smack about SFEX. if it wasn't for Nishitani leaving and starting Arika and making the EX games and them selling well in Japan, you wouldn't have precious Tetris Grandmaster stuff...Same guy...   

[schild]

Uh, actually, I'll just say it again.

EX sucked. Being around a fighting community where people can and will play anything doesn't magically make a shitty game good. You seem to be talking about EX in a vacuum. Now why the hell would you do that? There are 50 better fighting games worth playing _all_the_time_.

Good thing the japanese will buy fucking anything. And good thing Nishitani stopped with EX and made Grandmaster. Why? Because EX sucked.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Schild: Well apparently you know some information I don't, so you tell me why did the EX series suck?

[schild]

Because it wasn't fun? At all? And offered nothing against it's contemporaries? Which is pretty much the definition of suckage.

Kind of like Tabula Rasa. It has all the trapping of a Sci-Fi RPG, but it sucks.
Or Stella Deus - all the trappings of a good SRPG - but it sucks.

Basically, you can't make something FUN again with depth that 1% of the players will see. That's the OPPOSITE of good game design.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Because it wasn't fun? At all? And offered nothing against it's contemporaries? Which is pretty much the definition of suckage.

Kind of like Tabula Rasa. It has all the trapping of a Sci-Fi RPG, but it sucks.
Or Stella Deus - all the trappings of a good SRPG - but it sucks.

Basically, you can't make something FUN again with depth that 1% of the players will see. That's the OPPOSITE of good game design.

I think that designing games for idiots is this industries problem. As opposed to showing the players what they can do and helping them achieve that, they choose to set the bar lower. It is not Arika's fault that EX series was terribly received. The game has all the same game play of the other SF stuff in addition to a bunch of advanced stuff. If people choose to get that good, great, if not, that is fine too. The game did poorly cause it was ugly and slower paced, that is it. In my opinion it made up for it with interesting and fun game play elements. You can sit here and talk shit about the games fighting systems all day long, but you are wrong cause you don't know how to play it, and therefore can't make an educated decision about it. You don't like it, that is fine, but you are not informed about what the game does or how it plays enough to make a valid argument as to how good of a game it is.   

[schild]

Ugly and Slower Paced is enough to send it down the suckhole. Especially after we've seen hyper versions of SF.

Yea, I'm wrong because the one time I played it it wasn't fun enough to ever go back to. I'm not going to learn about a piece of shit. I don't see where you don't understand that. I don't waste time with games to make a valid argument against them unless it's NECESSARY. It's not necessary with fighting games. Ever. That is a waste of my time and your own.

[Jobu]

greatest fighting game of all time

Marvel vs Capcom 2 

MvC2 was always a little too hyper-kinetic for my tastes. Way too many linked air combo stunlock bullshit stuff. I really, really enjoyed the random fringe characters they added, like Jill Valentine and Amingo. Fun for button mashing and playing totally drunk at Gameworks.

SF3:TS was complete perfection. Every character could beat the other once you learned the nuances of your range and abilities. Parrys were brilliant and the timing of them felt exact. You knew exactly why you missed one. The way you peeled away new strategy and insight in that game was unparalleled, IMO.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Naw I enjoyed the time I spent with that game. Between that and Tekken Tag, and Gradius IV, PS2 launch owned me. Those were all really fun games for me. Anyway, we are not gonna convince each other so whatever. 

Jobu: 3rd Strike is not perfectly balanced. Quit lying to yourself.

[schild]

See, I bought a PS2 for GT3:ASpec. Probably as good as GT will ever be. Which breaks my heart. But you know what, it doesn't matter if we don't agree on EX. Because neither of us are ever gonna play it again and we will stomp eachothers ass in VF5 on the 360 and play on the cabs. >_>

I don't even know why people would talk about EX. It's like talking about Dark and Light. There's just no point.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I will play ex again, I will play it on Saturday actually, with a little bit of 3rd Strike, KOF 11 and GGAC.

[Jobu]

Jobu: 3rd Strike is not perfectly balanced. Quit lying to yourself.

Yeah, but Akuma is a cheap piece of shit in every game, so he doesn't count.

[schild]

I will play ex again, I will play it on Saturday actually, with a little bit of 3rd Strike, KOF 11 and GGAC.

You're gonna play EX on Saturday next to Third Strike?

Remember what we talked about the other day? Your tolerance for shit is lower than mine?

Proof in the pudding. No one should play those games back to back. Nobody.

It's not a personal thing, I think the same thing of people who blamed me for SWG even though I hadn't even resubbed because promises weren't met.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Ha, Your the only one who thinks it's that bad though. All the EX games were well reviewed minus EX3, which was poorly reviewed because it was too much of the same...Too much of the same stuff I liked already... Anyway, I like those games..

No what were you talking about? SWG?

[HaemishM]

I believe the excitement is derived from the hope that that trailer was mostly game play footage.

HAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Forlorn hope indeed. That trailer was shit hot, design wise, but that won't be gameplay.

[Salamok]

I believe the excitement is derived from the hope that that trailer was mostly game play footage.

HAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Forlorn hope indeed. That trailer was shit hot, design wise, but that won't be gameplay.

Which makes it totally irrelevent, they should have just stuck with a press release.

[HaemishM]

Yes.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

I'm really happy they had a trailer. Ideally should have something to show sooner or later. I would like to see how they approach this game. Also there is still not confirmation of who is working on the game. Seth Killian says that the "developers" are watching the forums at Capcom Unity and the Street Fighter World Site so it makes me think that it is Capcom America. But I have heard a lot of sources say it is all in Japan. I am not too sure what is going on with that.

Haemishm: It is possible that the game can play like that, just not likely. But I would love it if it was that dynamic and fluid.

[Margalis]

I'm with Velorath on this one, and I am a hardcore SF fan.

Capcom games recently have been a very mixed bag. They don't bring a whole lot of new stuff to the table. MVC2 was great but their other recent games have failed to impress. (Capcom vs. SNK 2, Capcom Fighting Jam, etc)

Part of the great thing about SF2 was that when it came out it was new, there wasn't a serious competitive fighting game at the time. There was a lot of wonder and a lot of discovery. Now a lot of tricks and combos are discovered in the first 4 hours.

You can't recapture old magic by doing the exact same thing, part of the old magic was the novelty and newness.

I'll hope for the best but I'll plan for mediocre. Remember that the first SF3 game was utter crap, and even the most recent one is merely good.

[UnSub]

Having seen the trailer... Street Fighter IV: Okami?

[schild]

Rumor is it's 2D, hi-def, 16x9, and is PS3, 360 and Arcade. Will run on Taito Type-X2 hardware (odd choice considering the new PS3 hardware out there, but there's an arcade install base for Taito Type X2 whatwith the SNK support and Castle Shikigami in that hizzouse).

Anyway.

Yea. Good juju.

[Velorath]

M vs C2 isn't for 8 year olds. It's just too much of a mess to get good at in that way. The controls are streamlned, sure, but the roster/tag teaming makes up for it.

[EDIT] Don't hate.

Not hating.  I love both MVC games.  Hell, I've enjoyed most of the Street Fighter stuff to some extent or another (with the obvious exceptions of the EX games which rank right down there with the Street Fighter the Movie game).  That said, yeah, I still think almost every SF game is pretty casual friendly (not sure why Hammer seems to think that's a bad thing), unless you happen to play at arcades where hardcore guys like Hammer Frenzy play, who from the sound of it will likely give themselves an erection by mercilessly beating the shit out of you instead of trying to help you become a better player.  The moves are all pretty easy to learn and use (much moreso than most 3D fighters), and if you're playing at home or going to the arcade with friends, chances are you know at least one or two people around your skill level that you can have decent fights with.  SFII to me was the ultimate casual fighting game.  I don't know any gamer who didn't play it, even if they never bothered to play another fighting game after that.

[WindupAtheist]

People liked SF3?  To me it was the sequel that came years too late, after everyone who wasn't an asian kid with a twitch had quit paying attention amid a sea of nigh-indistinguishable revisions.

[Azazel]

Please to be showing actual gameplay frottage before I am to be excited or giving of the fuck.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Velorath: Is there some reason you are being a douche with me?  :-(  Really, I like fighting games, I have my own opinion about them, I have taught so many people how to play many fighting games, and for some strange reason you have this idea that I am out to discourage people from playing fighting games or that I think that SF is the hardest thing in the world to play. I agree it is easy to get into. I don't think that is a bad thing at all, in fact that is the draw. But SF and most good fighting games have some very complicated execution/strategy focused game play scenarios that novice players don't pick up very often. It is not that I think that most people are incapable of getting good or playing at a high level, it is that most game players don't take many or any of their games that seriously. The amount of players who get to play at an advanced level in fighting games is unfortunately much lower than in other game types, only equaled by puzzle games, shooters and some FPS games. The truth is that among the actual community that plays a particular fighting game, a novice player is going to be much less skilled than the rest of the community. Fighting games just take more time to get good at and unfortunately you also need to have people to play with...that are at least as good if not better than you to remain competitive. Now if you are talking about, sitting around, throwing some fireballs and punching some faces for shits and giggles, then yes, most fighting games will allow you to do that and have some fun. But the accessabilty of street fighter and pretty much all fighting games is pretty deceiving. All fighting games have to have that element of twitch game play, where your actions are immediately seen on screen and result in positive or negative outcomes, but that is really elementary stuff. I am sure you are good at fighting games cause you don't sound like you are terribly uninformed, but it also seems like you are oversimplifying SF's complexity, while I may be over complicating it, either way, SF is at its core a very unforgiving and strategy/execution heavy game at both the intermediate and  advanced level.

[Velorath]

If you want to get into why more players don't play at a high level, it's because after you beat the computer, the difficulty curve for getting better is entirely dependent on the people you have available to play against.  The best way to get better at a game like this is to go against players just above your skill level, but unless you have some well organized community at the local arcade, this isn't realistic for most people.  Most people will never develop a skill level much higher than the circle of friends that they play with, and it will likely remain this way until the point when ranked online play is viable in most games without lag being a major factor.

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Velorath: I would agree with you if I hadn't seen more than a few communities come out of nothing in a relatively short amount of time. I think that at one point people were into getting better at fighting games. It seems like now, it is just much less common. It is so effortless to just play something else online and stuff. When fighting games were at their peak, no other games provided that kind of interaction with other players, or built communities around getting better at a game or group of games. Now many games can provide that and the less forgiving nature of fighting games seems to be less attractive to most gamers. It is weird, you would think that a game like DOA4, would help that out, seeing as it is much easier of a game to play, but even the DOA community is kinda weak. As much as I would love a healthy online community for a new SF game, I have to admit, there is nothing like sitting next to you opponent at home or in an arcade, and it is a real shame that that aspect of fighting games is less and less prevalent. I am hard pressed to believe that SF would blow up if the new title had some awesome online mode. I think that it would have a following, but not the following and player base that SF had back in the day.     

[Yegolev]

Welcome to the Crotchey Old Gamer's Club!

[Velorath]

DOA's problem is that it's marketing revolves entirely around the T&A.  The only time I ever hear anyone talk about the gameplay, it's to say that the DOA series is nowhere near as good as Virtua Fighter, Tekken, or even Soul Calibur (which also has a reputation for being more casual friendly).

Obviously SF will never have the same player base it had back in the old days.  Back when SFII came out, it didn't have any competition, but now the market is segemented into Virtua Fighter fans, Tekken fans, etc..., and a lot of them only play their series of choice.  I think a decent online community could potentially help the arcade market somewhat, as someone who practices online might feel more confident about going down to the arcade and testing his skill against the local players.  Failing that, maybe Nintendo could make a Pokemon fighting game to get people back into the arcades (especially if they could get exclusive Pokemon for their DS games by winning 50 matches or something).  Personally though, I'd rather see Rare make a new Killer Instinct game.