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Author Topic: Mythic-EA shuts down Warhammer beta, tells players to come back later  (Read 366457 times)
AcidCat
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Reply #105 on: October 09, 2007, 08:46:12 AM

My preference for non-instanced pvp basically comes down to the fact that it actually matters to the game world - it feels like it has a point. Instanced pvp like WoW's battlegrounds never felt like they mattered, because they didn't, they were just little imaginary pockets that didn't affect the "real" gameworld at all. That makes all the difference for me.

5150
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Reply #106 on: October 09, 2007, 09:00:37 AM

I was kind of surprised to see the lack of fingers pointing at GW themselves as the possible reason for the delay....

Given how burned they got by the original developer of WOL and how protective of their IP they are it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if GW had taken an look and said "NEEDS MORE ORKS/ELVES/rip-offs-from-other-content-sources NOW!!!!!" and [temp.] derailed the dev train.
UnSub
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Reply #107 on: October 09, 2007, 09:02:40 AM

You are still missing the point, you started the derail by saying "What's with the "We want non-instanced PvP combat only" crowd anyway?"

Some people don't like instanced pvp and they won't like it any more after you explain in great detail why it's great solution to other problems.

All MMOs with instanced pvp, dunge instancing need to just die now. At the very least they should no longer be called MMOs. How about "LMO" or "Limited Multiplayer Online (game)".

All MMOs with no instancing need to just die now. At the very least they should no longer be called MMOs. How about "MEPWCFWR" or "Massive E-Peen Waving Contests Filled With Retards (game)".

See what I did there?

Kaa
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Reply #108 on: October 09, 2007, 09:15:16 AM

Can I pop in and tell Kaa to stop signing his posts before I burst a brain vessel and fill with impotent rage?

That sounds like fun. Go right ahead  cool

Kaa
HaemishM
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Reply #109 on: October 09, 2007, 09:26:55 AM

I believe Mark Jacobs!  I very disappointed in the lack of drama involved, however.  I was hoping for a wee bit of doom and, maybe, some violence.  Someone running off with someone else's husband would have been awesome.

No, this isn't Shadowbane. I hope.

Shutting down beta for 2 months... not really that surprising. 2 months is a bit longer than I would have expected, but in early betas, Shadowbane closed down for weeks between builds. Not to mention that every time a character wipe was announced in SB beta, the servers emptied. No one would play, because all their efforts would be for naught. I'm sure the overhaul would bring a character wipe, so why not just shut the whole thing down since you won't get any good, NEW feedback in that time anyway? Save money on bandwidth.

The main reason I'm not really buying into the doom and gloom? With most shitty delayed MMOG's like Vanguard, there were NDA-leaks which pointed towards shittiness for months ahead of time. For Warhammer? I've seen none. Sometimes, no news is good news.

waylander
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Reply #110 on: October 09, 2007, 09:47:58 AM

All,

   It's really simple.  We got lots and lots of data (some great, some good, some not so good) and we are going to act on what we got.  That's one reason we started beta as early as we did so we could gather that data now, not later, when we have a chance to fix/change/improve things.  As an FYI, the tools we are using now I would have killed for with DAoC, if we had then what we have now, a lot of dumb stuff would not have happened.  In terms of possible reasons (raised here) for the delay:

1) Making it more like WoW:  Nope, if anything the exact opposite is true.

2) That we are yanking out whole systems: Nope, we are adding new systems (as planned) and balancing the existing systems.  Here's a shocking bit of news, the game isn't balanced yet.  Thanks to the tools we have now, we are able to identify what is messed up and we can now fix it ahead of time, as opposed to the past.  Trying to fix these things while we have lots of beta testers running around is not conducive to getting a game out on schedule.

3) In terms of whether this move was EA-induced: Not a chance.  They have not been involved in the design of the game at all and still aren't so I can't blame them for this. 

4) That it was caused by lots of people fleeing Mythic: Umm, no.  Last I looked all the key members of the *Warhammer* team are still there and very few people have left that team to go elsewhere.  People come and go, probably at a higher rate than when we were independent but we are also a heck of a lot bigger than we were in those days.

5) That we are now on a death march: Hardly.  If you look at most of the great games that have been done by other developers, they usually are delayed or a date isn't announced as early as we did with WAR or DAoC.  If we were putting this game in "turnaround" mode, then it's time to play taps.  For now, we are simply taking a break from the beta testers so we can focus on the game with as few distractions (inaccurate or conflicting reports, build/debug/test time before a version goes to the players, etc.) as possible for the next couple of months.  This is a critical time in our development cycle and we want to make sure that we are doing it the right way.

In terms of the Elves, they are being put in but they weren't supposed to be playable at this point anyway.

The reactions have been kinda funny.  When we said we could do the game in about 2 years (we didn't even have a contract for WAR till the summer of '05), people said we should take more time, spend more money and do it right.  When other companies take extra time to do it right, lots of people jump up and down and say that shows that they really care about making a great game.  When we announced our delay last year so we could make the game even better than we originally planned (thanks to the level of competition from Blizzard and elsewhere), people said the game was doomed.  When we don't invest enough time and money into the test/iterate cycle for DAOC (since we didn't have any extra money to do so with that game), people said correctly that it caused problems and that next time we need to do it right.  Then, here we announce that we want to hold off on the next stage of beta, for among other reasons, because we want to fix what was broken before the next group of invites, some people again say it is a sign that we are doomed.  We can't win, no matter what we do it seems, when it comes to some peoples' perception.

In terms of beta serving no purpose, not in our case.  It's why I wanted it to start early even knowing that we would shut it down at some point (we've done this before, we just didn't talk about it).  It is precisely because we knew that the guilds and lots of other people were waiting for admittance that we even talked about this publicly. The beta has been going extremely well but that doesn't mean that everything is perfect.  We expected that the beta would point out both strengths and weaknesses of the design and now we are acting on what we've learned so far.  Since we have more than enough to keep us busy over the next two months, nothing would have been served by opening it up to lots of lots of new people, many of whom would say that exact same thing as the groups that have gone before them.   From a purely business perspective, that would make no sense at all.  I want people to be excited by what they see in the game and not to point out the same bugs/issues/etc. that the group before them did.  We also want our current crowd of testers to be able to come back in 2 months with fresh eyes to see all the things we've done in the interim.  One other thing to keep in mind is that the game has been pretty much up 24x7 since we began letting in people so we really do have a ridiculous amount of data and private and forum feedback to work with.  Most other games early on don't do that.

This last point may seem a little obvious or even self-serving but if we were really in trouble why wouldn't we simply say that beta is closed until further notice or until it's ready?  We chose 2 months precisely because we have a good handle now on what needs to be done and how long we need to get ready for a really major infusion of players.

Mark


Good to hear. As one of the guilds selected for beta I get peppered every day with "when are we getting a beta invite?".  At least this announcement saves me some grief through the holidays, but I do hope that when this is all done you guys start inviting some groups into the closed test.

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dr_dre
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Reply #111 on: October 09, 2007, 10:15:07 AM

Mark Any possibilty you could enlighten us with some details regarding the not-wow crafting you talked about.

Signe
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Reply #112 on: October 09, 2007, 10:20:28 AM

Mark's post has been re-posted on MMORPG.com.  (not me!)  Prepare for incoming!  DUCK!   cheesy

PS  What Ras said.  More shiny crafting talk will distract us from the doom.

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BigBlack
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Reply #113 on: October 09, 2007, 10:33:17 AM

Props to Mark for the concise and to-the-point explanation.

That said, if I were from Mythic, TBH I'm not sure why I'd still post here.  Yes, we talk about MMOs a lot, and Mythic is making a MMO.  But are we really their audience?  A significant chunk of the posters here, if not a majority (myself probably included) will probably dislike WAR entirely independent of whether or not it succeeds at what it aims to do -- simply because what it aims to do (large and small-team structured PvP in a familiar, DIKU-ish shell) is something we're not looking for at the moment.  I wouldn't describe us as 'jaded', because that term has too many positive connotations.  Our tastes are just (again, averaging here across the posters I see) different.  I imagine WAR will be released as an at-the-very-least-good game that's simply 'not for us'.  Given the fact that we're a tough crowd and not even really in the market for what they're selling, I'm impressed so many red names will still play ball with us.
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Reply #114 on: October 09, 2007, 10:37:19 AM

Props to Mark for the concise and to-the-point explanation.

That said, if I were from Mythic, TBH I'm not sure why I'd still post here.  Yes, we talk about MMOs a lot, and Mythic is making a MMO.  But are we really their audience?  A significant chunk of the posters here, if not a majority (myself probably included) will probably dislike WAR entirely independent of whether or not it succeeds at what it aims to do -- simply because what it aims to do (large and small-team structured PvP in a familiar, DIKU-ish shell) is something we're not looking for at the moment.  I wouldn't describe us as 'jaded', because that term has too many positive connotations.  Our tastes are just (again, averaging here across the posters I see) different.  I imagine WAR will be released as an at-the-very-least-good game that's simply 'not for us'.  Given the fact that we're a tough crowd and not even really in the market for what they're selling, I'm impressed so many red names will still play ball with us.

I don't know if I agree. Sure, we may be looking for the NEXT GREAT GAME, but A LOT of people here buy and play most major MMOGs for at least the free month. Then we spend the next 3 years bitching about it  :-D

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dr_dre
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Reply #115 on: October 09, 2007, 10:41:27 AM

Then we spend the next 3 years bitching about it  :-D

well this thread already has a high amusement factor :)

could be better  but still.
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #116 on: October 09, 2007, 10:44:39 AM

Lots of devs have been lurking at ltm/wto/snd/f13/whatever since 1999 or so, and many registered anonymous handles to post without repercussion. They're part of the community, so they participate, even though the diaspora has several orders of magnitude less significance than LtM and many of the posters are burnt-out husks of men who hate all MMOs equally and don't grasp the irony of obsessively posting on a MMO-centric site.
Righ
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Reply #117 on: October 09, 2007, 11:15:00 AM

even though the diaspora has several orders of magnitude less significance than LtM

You do a good impersonation of yourself. While its pleasant that some of the former LtM crowd grace us with their esteemed wit and joie de vivre, I think that the much greater number of respondents on f13 who were not a part of LtM number among them as many people of equal or greater significance in contemporary gaming circles. However, carry on, even after six years the circle jerk never gets old.

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eldaec
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Reply #118 on: October 09, 2007, 11:16:34 AM

Tangent: What's with the "We want non-instanced PvP combat only" crowd anyway? That's an incredibly bad/stupid idea for a Red vs Blue PvP MMOG.

There are lots of threads on this board that retread the argument, but in short...


Sport PvP with fixed team numbers encourages organised teams to exclude new players.

Like in GW, regular even-sided instances are predictable and fair enough that they will almost always be won by the most organised side.

The battlefront system means the realms are competing in a zero sum game. It would appear that by entering an instance your group 'antes up' battlefront points, so if your group is not better than the average opposition, your realm is better off if you stay the hell out of pvp.




Open field RvR is more inclusive, the realm can only benefit when new players go RvR. This gives elder players a direct incentive to include newer players. The opposite effect of sport pvp.

Asymmetric battles give newer players an occasional chance to win, and give losers an opportunity to gain a moral victory by performing well against odds.

Plus open field RvR allows players of all abilities to take part in the key realm war events. Wheras sport pvp works on the basis of limited seating



None of this is comparable with WoW.

WoW has a low-impact sideshow at Alterac Valley, it is not the achiever end game. Achiever elders do not dominate AV in WoW because they are too busy dominating the raiding scene (which at least has the benefit of being more inclusive than sport pvp)

The more relevant comparison is Guild Wars. Guild Wars has many fine qualities, but it does not build realm community, and it is not even a little bit accessible to players who arrive guildless.



...there, no WAR thread is complete without it.

Ultimately my real irritation with sport PvP in WAR is that Open RvR worked in DAoC, and nobody else has tried it since. As such, it is annoying to see Mythic take the same GW/WoW route as everyone else, espeicially with an IP that is so perfectly suited to open field RvR.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 02:47:50 PM by eldaec »

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sam, an eggplant
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Reply #119 on: October 09, 2007, 11:23:06 AM

Sorry, did I hurt your feelings?

The diaspora is less significant largely because it's dispersed, not so much the cult of personality around Lum. Also online gaming is a dramatically larger and more public industry, there are a shitton more people writing rants, publishing cost dropped due to blogs, the industry grew up so information is disseminated in a more professional manner, scandals and major bugs/exploits/rollbacks are few and far between, more players understand how MMO game mechanics actually work, and finally yes, many posters here are jaded husks all about the #hate.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 11:25:54 AM by sam, an eggplant »
eldaec
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Reply #120 on: October 09, 2007, 11:27:08 AM

The diaspora is less significant largely because it's dispersed, not so much the cult of personality around Lum.

Oh for christssakes nobody cares. And you'll set Hrose off in a minute.


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
LC
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Reply #121 on: October 09, 2007, 11:28:00 AM

Mark's post has been re-posted on MMORPG.com.  (not me!)  Prepare for incoming!  DUCK!   cheesy

PS  What Ras said.  More shiny crafting talk will distract us from the doom.

I thought MMORPG.COM was just a collection of press releases.
Morfiend
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Reply #122 on: October 09, 2007, 11:43:38 AM

Props to Mark for the concise and to-the-point explanation.

That said, if I were from Mythic, TBH I'm not sure why I'd still post here.  Yes, we talk about MMOs a lot, and Mythic is making a MMO.  But are we really their audience?  A significant chunk of the posters here, if not a majority (myself probably included) will probably dislike WAR entirely independent of whether or not it succeeds at what it aims to do -- simply because what it aims to do (large and small-team structured PvP in a familiar, DIKU-ish shell) is something we're not looking for at the moment.  I wouldn't describe us as 'jaded', because that term has too many positive connotations.  Our tastes are just (again, averaging here across the posters I see) different.  I imagine WAR will be released as an at-the-very-least-good game that's simply 'not for us'.  Given the fact that we're a tough crowd and not even really in the market for what they're selling, I'm impressed so many red names will still play ball with us.

I don't know if I agree. Sure, we may be looking for the NEXT GREAT GAME, but A LOT of people here buy and play most major MMOGs for at least the free month. Then we spend the next 3 years bitching about it  :-D

I agree with WAP. I think a lot of us will play most "big name" MMOs that come out. I think the majority of people here played DAoC, SWG, WoW, EQ2. etc. Some people may not stick with them for long, but if you look at the MMOG sub-forums, some are still quite active.

As to why a dev would post here, since Waterthread and before, there have been a large number of devs who read and post. I cant put words in their mouth, but I like to think part of that is that we dont have "dev-envy" here, and are not afraid to speak our minds and give real feedback or intelligent discussion.

I think its nice that Mark would post those replay that he did. Now, is that other than PR spin? Only time will tell. I dont think any one expected him to come out and say "We are fucked, our game sucks, come back in two months for Warhammer: NGE". I do think it is telling though that he would answer the critics, as some times silence can be louder than words and all that.
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Reply #123 on: October 09, 2007, 11:47:53 AM

Game devs aren't some bizarre different species from humans, they tend to be just as opinionated and cranky as people in less quirky industries.

I remember reading a flame on the DAOC VN boards from someone who went on about how the latest patch was "proof Mythic just didn't care" and "clearly showed a bias against realm X" and "slap in the face" and "final nail in the coffin" and so on. The thing was, this was a poster that I knew as a long time UO developer who got to enjoy many of the same insightful commentary himself. So I immediately IM'd him. "Dude. You *so* know better than that." "Yeah, yeah, I know."
dr_dre
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Reply #124 on: October 09, 2007, 12:04:32 PM



*removed by moderator*
* soz about this my mistake .. i just shouldnt believe what others say :)  Drea *
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 03:27:57 PM by dr_dre »
Venkman
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Reply #125 on: October 09, 2007, 12:11:06 PM

Quote from: eldaec
WoW has a low-impact sideshow at Alterac Valley, it is not the achiever end game. Achiever elders do not dominate AV in WoW because they are too busy dominating the raiding scene (which at least has the benefit of being more inclusive than sport pvp)
I don't necessarily agree with this. I find that the impact ubers have on BGs are much greater on paper than in practice. Now, Arenas have their issues of course. But BGs are even more inclusive even than Raiding because:

  • It's easier to join a PUG at all because there's no setup work. Now imagine trying to go from level 70 to joining a Karazhan raid.
  • The matches are over quick enough any newbie/learning mistakes you made have minimum impact
  • Raids are a win/loss game for the individual. You either got a drop on a raid or you did not get a drop on a raid (for the most part), for however long you spent on that raid in that session. BGs meanwhile, you always gain some money in that economy.

BGs aren't all rosey of course :) And yea they can be dominated by the top-tier players. But at least in my experience, this doesn't happen in practice so often as to cut out folks who aren't in that category.

Quote
Ultimately my real irritation with sport PvP in WAR is that Open RvR worked in DAoC, and nobody else has tried it since.
Here I agree. But I question the relevance. If this thread was another generic-fantasy DIKU, this would matter. As part of a big IP though... I don't know DAoC was successful enough to really drive iteration. Kinda like UO>SWG vs EQ1>WoW.
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Reply #126 on: October 09, 2007, 12:20:05 PM

Tangent: What's with the "We want non-instanced PvP combat only" crowd anyway? That's an incredibly bad/stupid idea for a Red vs Blue PvP MMOG.

There are lots of threads on this board that retread the argument, but in short...


Sport PvP with fixed team numbers encourages organised teams to exclude new players.

Like in GW, regular even-sided instances are predictable and fair enough that they will almost always be won by the most organised side.

The battlefront system means the realms are competing in a zero sum game. It would appear that by entering an instance your group 'antes up' battlefront points, so if your group is not better than the average opposition, your realm is better off if you stay the hell out of pvp.




Open field RvR is more inclusive, the realm can only benefit when new players go RvR. This gives elder players a direct incentive to include newer players. The opposite effect of sport pvp.

Asymmetric battles give newer players an occasional chance to win, and give losers an opportunity to gain a moral victory by performing well against odds.

Plus open field RvR allows players of all abilities to take part in the key realm war events. Wheras sport pvp works on the basis of limited seating



None of this is comparable with WoW.

WoW has a low-impact sideshow at Alterac Valley, it is not the achiever end game. Achiever elders do not dominate AV in WoW because they are too busy dominating the raiding scene (which at least has the benefit of being more inclusive than sport pvp)

The more relevant comparison is GW. GW has many fine qualities, but it does not build realm community, and it is not even a little bit accessible to players who arrive guildless.
Two copper and a moral victory will buy my old EQ character a muffin from the Qeynos bakery.  tongue
Also, I'd say that WoW is a better comparison because WAR is to WoW as DAoC was to EQ. If you're looking for a GW comparions...WoW's arena seasons are pretty close.

Quote
Ultimately my real irritation with sport PvP in WAR is that Open RvR worked in DAoC, and nobody else has tried it since. As such, it is annoying to see Mythic take the same GW/WoW route as everyone else, espeicially with an IP that is so perfectly suited to open field RvR.
DAoC had three teams, which should have alleviated the zerg somewhat...at least, if one of the two less populated teams PvE content hadn't been thrown together a month before live. :)

As for 'Sport PvP' vs 'Open Realm PvP' - well, it's all internet cops and robbers anyway, innit? DAoC's frontiers, etc. were the prototypes for the WoW battlegrounds, IMO. There's no fundamental difference between "Zone into WoW BG, acheive goals, kill enemies" and "Zone into DAoC frontier, achieve goals, kill enemies" other than WoW's BGs enforce a level(ish) playing field.

If you want really meaningful (in the context of the game) PvP? You should be playing EVE (or, egads, Shadowbane!)  :-D

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Reply #127 on: October 09, 2007, 12:55:10 PM

DAoC's frontiers, etc. were the prototypes for the WoW battlegrounds, IMO. There's no fundamental difference between "Zone into WoW BG, acheive goals, kill enemies" and "Zone into DAoC frontier, achieve goals, kill enemies" other than WoW's BGs enforce a level(ish) playing field.
True and false.

True because, originally, WoW's BGs like Alterac Valley were supposed to be persistent. One instance only. In fact they added some quests to give players something to do when no one was around.

False because of the same problem. It's not instancing itself the problem. The difference between DAoC and WoW is that DAoC has persistence.

DAoC has BGs too, but they are persistent. If you conquer the central keep and the enemy doesn't take it back, the day after you still control it.

The key is: persistence. Instances are bad for PvP because they usually annihilate world persistence.

In DAoC you can fight for territory. This makes feel the war "true" and worth an investment of time. It's immersive, you feel like contributing to a greater goal aside feeding your character points to spend on power-ups. It builds the sense of realm. And that sense of realm and cooperation is the one difference that make people keep fond memories about DAoC.

The moment you use instancing you lose the persistence of the objectives. So the meaning of the war.

If there's instancing, conquering a tower or controlling territory is meaningless, because you log-out/log-in and the zone is reset.

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Arthur_Parker
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Reply #128 on: October 09, 2007, 01:03:44 PM

The main reason I'm not really buying into the doom and gloom? With most shitty delayed MMOG's like Vanguard, there were NDA-leaks which pointed towards shittiness for months ahead of time. For Warhammer? I've seen none. Sometimes, no news is good news.

With the IP they have and the lessons taught by WoW, I think it would be surprising if Mythic made a bad game.  I just suspect they will play it too safe and end up with a game too swallow to appeal to the pvp market long term.  It's normal not to pay too much attention to the vocal pvp crowd, but WAR is being marketed as a pvp game.  I'd love to see the beta boards to see if the hardcore are ripping it for being too "carebear", but yeah, it is strange not to see many negative leaks.
sam, an eggplant
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Reply #129 on: October 09, 2007, 01:23:10 PM

The negative leaks are starting as of today, now that they can't immediately kick anyone out of beta. I saw a couple at various sites.
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Reply #130 on: October 09, 2007, 01:36:16 PM

The negative leaks are starting as of today, now that they can't immediately kick anyone out of beta. I saw a couple at various sites.

Let's keep any leaks, positive or negative, off F13. For the children.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

Always wear clean underwear because you never know when a Tory Government is going to fuck you.- Ironwood

Libertarians make fun of everyone because they can't see beyond the event horizons of their own assholes Surlyboi
Venkman
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Reply #131 on: October 09, 2007, 01:38:28 PM

The moment you use instancing you lose the persistence of the objectives. So the meaning of the war.
I agree with this, although I'd say that instancing itself is not the culprit. Rather, it's the design choice to reset the instance. But that's largely semantics.

The one thing I'd like to know though, and only folks behind real NDAs could probably answer, is just how many people were in DAoC RvR? Enough to make a whole game around? Or enough to point to and say that there's a heck of a lot more people who like Sport PvP than the immersive style? It's not really a simple question because outside of the even more immersive SB and Eve, few modern MMORPGs have really tackled persistent-world/impacting PvP. But I just look at how many folks are capable of dabbling with the separate advancement ladder of Sport PvP in WoW versus the numbers DAoC ever had and see a disconnect.
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Reply #132 on: October 09, 2007, 02:00:15 PM

Dave Rickey could tell you numbers about the DAoC RVR usage. According to posts he made years ago when he worked at Mythic, the numbers on who used it versus who didn't were in favor of the ones who used it.

Also, the only worry I have about WAR is that they will expend too much focus on the PVE game.

Mrbloodworth
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Reply #133 on: October 09, 2007, 02:09:25 PM

Props to Mark for the concise and to-the-point explanation.

Some stuff

I don't know if I agree. Sure, we may be looking for the NEXT GREAT GAME, but A LOT of people here buy and play most major MMOGs for at least the free month. Then we spend the next 3 years bitching about it  :-D


 Tantrum

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Montague
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1297


Reply #134 on: October 09, 2007, 02:13:26 PM


The reactions have been kinda funny.  When we said we could do the game in about 2 years (we didn't even have a contract for WAR till the summer of '05), people said we should take more time, spend more money and do it right.  When other companies take extra time to do it right, lots of people jump up and down and say that shows that they really care about making a great game.  When we announced our delay last year so we could make the game even better than we originally planned (thanks to the level of competition from Blizzard and elsewhere), people said the game was doomed.  When we don't invest enough time and money into the test/iterate cycle for DAOC (since we didn't have any extra money to do so with that game), people said correctly that it caused problems and that next time we need to do it right.  Then, here we announce that we want to hold off on the next stage of beta, for among other reasons, because we want to fix what was broken before the next group of invites, some people again say it is a sign that we are doomed.  We can't win, no matter what we do it seems, when it comes to some peoples' perception.


Yep. The only thing worse would be if nobody cared.

When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis.

I can tell more than 1 fucktard at a time to stfu, have no fears. - WayAbvPar

We all have the God-given right to go to hell our own way.  Don't fuck with God's plan. - MahrinSkel
eldaec
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Posts: 11843


Reply #135 on: October 09, 2007, 02:30:15 PM

The one thing I'd like to know though, and only folks behind real NDAs could probably answer, is just how many people were in DAoC RvR?

Everyone who reached the end game of DAoC was RvRing. Everyone.

When the game was brand new, everyone went RvR from level 20 up.

If you didn't like RvR, you quit DAoC. There was no other end game at all until ToA. Nobody was playing DAoC for ToA.

If you didn't reach the end game, you quit DAoC. In my time in game, I knew plenty of people who burnt out and left before RvR, but nobody who was playing for pve alts.

Despite this, and no marketing, and no competant EU offering, subscriptions slotted in a little below Everquest, but above Asheron's Call. And WoW has zero innovation over EQ or AC, it just has more polish. So if WoW subs is what happens when you do EQ properly (big if), there is no particular reason DAoC done properly couldn't have a million or more subs.

If any PvP oreinted game can make million plus western subs, then there is no earthly reason why a daoc style rvr game couldn't.


Quote
But I just look at how many folks are capable of dabbling with the separate advancement ladder of Sport PvP in WoW versus the numbers DAoC ever had and see a disconnect.

I have no issue with having Sport PvP as a WoW style dabbling activity. It's fast, it can be fun.

The problem is when you make an achiever end game liek Guild Wars, and the core system driving zero-sum realm objectives.


And comparing WoW numbers vs anything else is ridiculous. WoW and Everquest are fundamentally the same game bar marketing and polish. WoW demonstrates that it is insane to suggest that the pve diku is dead since Everquest subs were only at "rubbish" DAoC levels.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2007, 02:48:31 PM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
MarkJacobs
Developers
Posts: 109

Mythic Entertainment


Reply #136 on: October 09, 2007, 02:42:57 PM

All,

   Just an FYI, Jeff's letter is under NDA.  The site that did posted it originally, TenTonHammer, did so in error and has since taken it down.  There's nothing earth-shattering in the letter  but it was a letter than was sent out to the beta community and not to the general public (that's why we posted a different letter on the Herald) and I've posted here and WA site.  Any other site that is posting it is breaking our NDA as nobody at Mythic has declared it non-NDA breaking.  As a general rule, all communication between beta testers and the company/product that they are testing is always considered confidential.

   As to some of the questions/comments:

1) I post here occasionally (but lurk all the time), cuz I like this place, always have.   There are a lot of bright people here and even though there are some that I would happily never hear from again (and the opposite is also true), I'm still here.

2) As to a lack of trauma and drama, sorry it couldn't have been more interesting.  We're a pretty boring place when it comes to that sort of stuff.  However, I'm sure I can still stir things up every now and then.  Let's wait till we get closer to launch, I'm sure I can light a fire and pour some gasoline on it for everyone's amusement. :)

3) GW had nothing to do with this delay.  They've been great partners and I truly love working with them.  They've been honorable, straightforward and everything I could have hoped for when we chose to work together.  This doesn't mean we have always seen eye-to-eye on everything (I would have been shocked if we had) but our discussions have never resulted in blood, tears or worse, lawyers.  They've lived up to their word and bond 100% and that is one reason why I am so focused on getting out a great game and not simply getting out a game, they deserve it. 

4) I've said it before and I'll say it again, I hate 100% instanced games and I think that 100% non-instanced games are also flawed (but not as badly).  What we are trying to do is have some of the best of both for WAR. 

5) As to Scott and my supply of poisons, nah, I like Scott, always have and always will.  We might not agree on everything but I respect his intelligence even when we disagree.  He was a part of the reason DAoC succeeded and I'll always thank him for that. 

6) As to crafting, I would love to talk about it but it's still too early.  It's a neat system, mostly evolutionary but with a couple of really cool twists.  I do promise though that I will come back here if people want to chat about it once I start talking about it publicly.  I'll reiterate though that it is not carpal-tunnel inducing, you will not have to make stack after stack of useless stuff just to advance.  That is not fun for 90+% (if not higher) of the people who play these games and I don't want that kind of system in WAR. 

Mark



eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11843


Reply #137 on: October 09, 2007, 02:45:02 PM

Quote
5) As to Scott and my supply of poisons, nah, I like Scott, always have and always will.  We might not agree on everything but I respect his intelligence even when we disagree.  He was a part of the reason DAoC succeeded and I'll always thank him for that.

That's exactly what I'd say if I were poisoning Lum too.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603

tazelbain


Reply #138 on: October 09, 2007, 02:56:07 PM



Quote
   Just an FYI, Jeff's letter is under NDA.  The site that did posted it originally, TenTonHammer, did so in error and has since taken it down.  There's nothing earth-shattering in the letter  but it was a letter than was sent out to the beta community and not to the general public (that's why we posted a different letter on the Herald) and I've posted here and WA site.  Any other site that is posting it is breaking our NDA as nobody at Mythic has declared it non-NDA breaking.  As a general rule, all communication between beta testers and the company/product that they are testing is always considered confidential.

LOL, if make us look competent, hide it under NDA.  If it makes us look like clueless marketeers, release it to the public. Interesting plan.

"Me am play gods"
Montague
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1297


Reply #139 on: October 09, 2007, 03:00:51 PM

6) As to crafting, I would love to talk about it but it's still too early.  It's a neat system, mostly evolutionary but with a couple of really cool twists.  I do promise though that I will come back here if people want to chat about it once I start talking about it publicly.  I'll reiterate though that it is not carpal-tunnel inducing, you will not have to make stack after stack of useless stuff just to advance.  That is not fun for 90+% (if not higher) of the people who play these games and I don't want that kind of system in WAR. 

Mark


A fun crafting system that doesn't feel like you're being cockstabbed sounds awesome.

Unfortunately if the gear isn't top tier the crafters will complain and nobody will bother. If it is top tier the catasses will whine about easy epics. If you have to PVE to get materials people will bitch about having to PVE in a PVP game. If you have to PVP to get materials people will bitch they can just get rewards from PVPing, why bother with crafting items?

Gotta love MMO's.

 

When Fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross - Sinclair Lewis.

I can tell more than 1 fucktard at a time to stfu, have no fears. - WayAbvPar

We all have the God-given right to go to hell our own way.  Don't fuck with God's plan. - MahrinSkel
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