My Hate For Nintendo Reaches Critical Mass, They've Now Invaded My Motherfucking

[Kitsune]

I'm too lazy to search through the forums and see whether you've ever made any 'gameplay is the most important thing, graphics don't matter' statements, Schild.  I'll just trust that you haven't, because if you had, this would make you a horrible fucking hypocrite.

I have a PS3 and I very much like pretty graphics, but I am 100% behind good, adult games being on the Wii.  Eternal Darkness and RE4 proved that the Gamecube was capable of playing disks that didn't contain cartoons or minigames, and it's high time that the same fact was established for the Wii.  I want to see good old-fashioned blood-soaked horror games becoming Wii bestsellers.  I'd like to use the wiimote to swing the baseball bat in GTA to club a hooker.

The Wii's 480p widescreen is unquestionably the least-powerful graphics of the new console generation, but it's still entirely adequate.  In my time of playing Twilight Princess and Metroid Corruption, not once did I ever stop and think, 'Man, these graphics suck.', nor did I ever think, 'These controls blow!'  The Wii has enough power and control to be the host of any game in the market, and it is my sincere hope that game developers will make an effort to provide it with a good library of games.  Of every genre, not just party games and cutesey platformers.

I want the same for the PS3, of course, but I don't consider its graphics to be mandatory for a game to be awesome.

[schild]

Funny. When I played Zelda, that's exactly what I thought. That those graphics blow. Wind Waker, which I didn't even like, was 50x more appealing.

Also, as I said, I played Disgaea. Hell all of the N1 games. Arguably any of those games could have been on the PS1. I've probably spent over 200 hours on them all combined. But when a game suffers because of the console choice, I get pissed. Fatal Frame is a what WOULD HAVE SHOULD HAVE COULD HAVE BEEN situation.

It'll be fine on the Wii. It'll be like playing it on the PS2 with a shitty imprecise lightgun. But I would have preferred it be on the PS3. Anyone who spent time with Fatal Frame 3 and saw how skilled those artists were no doubt think the exact same thing.

[Sky]

I think "They've Now Invaded My Motherfucking" should be the new internet meme.

Nintendo needs to stop invading schild when he is motherfucking.

Daddy? Is that you?

Fact 1: HI DEF DOES NOT MAKE FOR BETTER GAMES

Lack of HD can make good games less enjoyable, though.

[HaemishM]

Here are the questions that keeps Wii development studios up at night: are all those casual non-gamers who picked up a Wii because it was fun to wave the Wiimote around going to go out and buy more games? And games of a different type? Are those party game players actually going to go out and buy an RTS, an X-Com clone, a HOMM clone etc?

If they are asking that question, they've already lost and will be an also-ran putting out niche games in 3 years. No, those party game players AREN'T going to buy an RTS, or an X-Com clone or an HOMM clone, because those aren't the kind of games that interest them. Those are niche titles, and in the realm of the mass market, most of the hardcore gamer titles we are traditionally used to are niche titles as well. That's WHY the PC gaming industry has lost so much steam, because it never understood that the genres it chose to develop are and always will be niche genres in the mass market.

That doesn't mean those games should not be made, but they have to be made with that in mind. Which means targeting your budget for a niche market, making MORE games with smaller budgets and very specific target audiences. And guess what? You can fund those niche-y hardcore games with party games, mini-game collections and such.

If they do buy more games, how many games are they going to buy? And are they simply going out to get the next Nintendo first party release of Nintendogs: Revenge of the Nintendogs, or are they going to buy a third party game like Fatal Frame?

They might go out and buy a game like Fatal Frame. Or they might only go out and buy Nintendogs. Or they might go out and buy games in genres that are not currently being served well. Think about a game like that Ace Attorney series from Japan, a game which is essentially a lawyer drama TV series. American companies aren't making lawyer drama TV series unless they can make a dirt cheap game that's licensed from a popular TV series and as a game is TOTAL SHIT. But those games get bought despite being total shit because they are from genres that mainstream buyers can attach to. They won't buy Ace Attorney because it's too anime/Japanese, but they sure would buy a Boston Legal game. And imagine if that Boston Legal game was actually a decent game, with the same kind of design seriousness that Japanese devs put into Ace Attorney?

The fucking video game development crowd needs to get off their high-goddamn-horse and start branching into mainstream genres like lawyer dramas or soap operas and produce some really knocked out versions of those games instead of licensed drivel. You know, INNOVATE instead of just trying to toss more pixels at a shoot-em-up.

[HaemishM]

Fact 1: HI DEF DOES NOT MAKE FOR BETTER GAMES

Lack of HD can make good games less enjoyable, though.

Not to me. Perfect example - WoW vs. EQ2. Both good game design (now) for what they are, but I enjoy WoW better.

[stray]

I'm confused on how that's a perfect example.

[Grand Design]

He's saying: WoW = suck graphics, Eq2 = slightly less suck graphics.

And yet he still plays WoW. 

[HaemishM]

EQ2's graphics are hi-def, hi-res, technologically superior to WoW's low-res, low-poly graphics engine. EQ2's game design is to me a bit inferior to WoW's and thus I play WoW instead of EQ2. They are both good games, but I enjoy the lack of HD WoW more because of better game design.

[murdoc]

EQ2 graphics were technically superior, WoW's were artistically superior. You could say the same thing in regards to Zelda: Wind Waker and Zelda: Twilight Princess. This doesn't address the HD/Non-HD issue. A better example would be that EQ2 is better to play at 1600x1200 than it is to play at 800x600.

[Yegolev]

I have a PS3 and I very much like pretty graphics, but I am 100% behind good, adult games being on the Wii.  Eternal Darkness and RE4 proved that the Gamecube was capable of playing disks that didn't contain cartoons or minigames, and it's high time that the same fact was established for the Wii.  I want to see good old-fashioned blood-soaked horror games becoming Wii bestsellers.  I'd like to use the wiimote to swing the baseball bat in GTA to club a hooker.

This is a great ideal and technically possible, but economically it's not likely to happen.  The Wii target demographic isn't interested in Eternal Darkness, unless it is a ED-themed version of Duck Hunt.  They don't want to crack bitches over the head with wiimotes.  They especially don't want to use crotchsaws.  The Wii is in it's own area, and a real game being banished to Wii exclusivity... well, I'd like for it to do well and I hope it does.  I'm just suspicious that it won't.  Time will tell.

I found Twilight Princess graphics to be terribly underwhelming.  I'd have prefered a Wind Waker style which was much more suited to the system it was made for.  That said, Super Paper Mario also failed to impress me visually.  I have just gotten used to antialiasing on all of my other machines, I guess.

[Bokonon]

This should be a podcast.

Crossfire - f13.net edition

I nominate Raph for the Jon Stewart role!

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

[Sky]

EQ2 graphics were technically superior, WoW's were artistically superior. You could say the same thing in regards to Zelda: Wind Waker and Zelda: Twilight Princess. This doesn't address the HD/Non-HD issue. A better example would be that EQ2 is better to play at 1600x1200 than it is to play at 800x600.

This is more my point. It's not about design or asthetics. I'm talking about having better technology rendering your game makes the game experience better. I'd rather look at a game at 1280x720 with full HDR/FSAA/AF/Shaders than at a 480i tv picture with stretched textures and aliasing, lacking shadows or shaders. Same game, less of a gaming experience. I'm talking apples to apples to remove 'x is a better game than y'. So WoW on your pc vs WoW on your tv set (not /my/ tv set just to satisfy my contractual grief title requirements).

I think the Wii is a cool system, I just don't think I'd enjoy it due to lack of titles. Same reason I don't have a PS3 or 360, and I'm wavering on the 360. If I watched a lot of movies, I'd probably get a PS3. I play PC games, I embrace the niche. It costs more overall, but I can play the exclusives I want and play better-looking versions of the multiplatform stuff (except shit like Madden porting the PS2 version wtbanana). I'm not here for the 'my platform is best' argument, I'm just saying that other things being equal, HD makes games more enjoyable, unless you have an sdtv and exclude pc games (a big unless).

From a bystander's perspective it seems the 360 won this round. Good titles, hd-dvd, strong online, strong 720p with some 1080p support.

[Kitsune]

The 360 has nothing but a head start; the Wii's already outsold it and the PS3 is finally starting to get to its feet after that disastrous start.  The 360's online play requires monthly fees, the hardware has giant gaping flaws (the demo 360 in my closest Gamestop has red-ringed, amusingly), the HD-DVD costs $180 for an external player, it's the only console without built-in wireless network support, and so far as I'm aware it doesn't have native 1080p, rather upscaling 720p games to 1080 output.

[HaemishM]

The 360 has definitely won this round, despite all the problems. Technical deficiences never hurt the PS2's sales. That year's head start is crucial, especially when followed up by a plethora of good games.

I've never argued that HD won't improve a good game. Of course it will. HD graphics will definitely improve a GOOD game, but they aren't NECESSARY for a game to be good, nor will tossing HD graphics on a shitty game (Lair) make it any less shitty.

[Fabricated]

I sympathize with SChild over Fatal Frame going to the Wii. The Fatal Frame series was really impressive visually on the old PS2, and what with the photo-saving you could do and the pants-shitting atmosphere the series pretty much demands to be played in high-def on a big badass TV with 5.1 or better surround sound (neither of which the Wii supports. Nintendo short-changed us on sound output too).

Fatal Frame 1-3 had shitty controls but I'd rather have shitty controls and the superior atmosphere that could afforded by the 360/PS3 than be able to waggle my controller and play Pokemon Ghost Snap.

The 360 has definitely won this round, despite all the problems. Technical deficiences never hurt the PS2's sales. That year's head start is crucial, especially when followed up by a plethora of good games.

what

[Samwise]

I don't know what the hell any of you are talking about, but this is still the most entertaining thread I've read all month.

[Velorath]

The 360 has definitely won this round, despite all the problems. Technical deficiences never hurt the PS2's sales. That year's head start is crucial, especially when followed up by a plethora of good games.

what

Is there a part of that you'd like to argue with?

[Riggswolfe]

The 360 has definitely won this round, despite all the problems. Technical deficiences never hurt the PS2's sales. That year's head start is crucial, especially when followed up by a plethora of good games.

what

Is there a part of that you'd like to argue with?

He's just in denial. For hardcore gamers the 360 has pretty much won, in the U.S. and Europe at least. It's basically in the same position that the PS2 was in in relation to the XBOX. The XBOX was a superior machine but the PS2 had a headstart and a wider library and cost less. The only thing the PS3 has going for it is uhhh...Metal Gear Solid and Japanese RPGs eventually. The slightly better graphics are offset by the price difference and most gamers don't give two shits about Blu Ray.

[schild]

Uh. What more did the PS2 have than Metal Gear Solid and Japanese RPGs? Ratchet and Clank and God of War and Ueda's Stuff? They've still got that shit too.

I think people need to go examine the PS2 library and the upcoming PS3 one. They're frighteningly similar.

Most of the PS2y/Dreamcasty stuff the 360 got has been absolute shit - Bullet Witch, Vampire's Rain, etc. It's won no major victories in that regard.

[HaemishM]

I think people need to go examine the PS2 library and the upcoming PS3 one. They're frighteningly similar.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

[schild]

I think people need to go examine the PS2 library and the upcoming PS3 one. They're frighteningly similar.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Not the lesson you're thinking of though.

[Velorath]

Uh. What more did the PS2 have than Metal Gear Solid and Japanese RPGs?

A lack of any solid competition for the first year?  GTA3 a couple years before the Xbox got it (with a similar trend for all of the other GTA games)?  GTA3, Gran Turismo 3, MGS2, and FFX all out before the end of their second holdiay season in the U.S. (note: that's 4 out of the 5 top selling franchises on the PS2)?

[schild]

Gran Turismo 5, MGS 4 and FFXIII are all coming out before the end of their second holiday season this time also. Though FF will probably be pushed into the holiday season to deal with whatever MS and Ninty have.

[Velorath]

Gran Turismo 5, MGS 4 and FFXIII are all coming out before the end of their second holiday season this time also. Though FF will probably be pushed into the holiday season to deal with whatever MS and Ninty have.

This is their second holiday season.  The PS3 was released during the last holiday season.

Edit:  To phrase it more clearly, the PS2 launched Oct. 26th, 2000 in the US.  By the end of 2001 those games had been released.  PS3 launched on Nov. 11, 2006.  The earliest any of those games will be released is MGS4 in what looks to be March of 2008.

[UnSub]

The fucking video game development crowd needs to get off their high-goddamn-horse and start branching into mainstream genres like lawyer dramas or soap operas and produce some really knocked out versions of those games instead of licensed drivel. You know, INNOVATE instead of just trying to toss more pixels at a shoot-em-up.

Those are some good answers, even if you sound like Warren Ellis when he talks about comics.

I probably should have said 'potential Wii development studios', because they'd want to get some of those questions answered before they thought about developing a game for the Wii. But you're right - if they are asking those questions, they've already missed the point.

Which is why I think the Wii will miss out on a lot of third-party support - devs have to wrap their head around how to use the Wiimote in their games. Now, I hardly follow what is coming out each week on the Wii, but the games I have seen are party games, FPSs and sword-fighting games. The mainstream (read: PC) FPS devs work by developing games that need huge computer power to drive high frames-per-second in a graphically intensive environment. That's not something the Wii is set up for, so they won't be developing for the Wii as a priority. Party games and sword fighting games need accurate controls, which third party devs seem not to have yet mastered in Wii game development. Other devs, while publicly praising the Wii's innovation, don't seem to be driven to work out how to develop games around a control scheme that isn't a handheld / keyboard + mouse.

All the talk of the Wii's installed player base means very little if (like the N64 and Gamecube behind it) it doesn't get the third party support it needs (above and beyond the shovelware that ends up on all consoles, of course).

[Jain Zar]

For Jain Zar~
I haven't played AT-43 yet, but my own objections to their pre-painted figures is that they aren't nearly as good quality as Rackham's metal sculpts, nor are they of as good quality as GW's plastics. The paintjobs or pre-paintedness I have no inherent problem with, but their prices make them more expensive (and in some cases significantly more so) than GW's figures. While I have no objections to others using their paintjobs, they're not something I'd use when I can knock up something better in a day. If they were cheaper I'd gladly give them a shot, using their prepaints as base coat. Probably.

Also, the Wii hasn't beaten Sony. This round of console wars has barely begun, and Ninty said from the start that they were playing a different game this time.

Also, I hate it when things invade My Motherfucking.

Id say their plastics are superior overall.  A little softer plastic, but only a little.  And the paint jobs are LIGHT YEARS better than what I can accomplish, and are designed to either be primed over and fully repainted, or painted on top of.  I am not sure what paint they use or how they managed to have the best prepaints out there (only Heroscape comes close and that's what having Hasbro as a published gets you...), but compared to the stuff from Wizkids, Reaper, and WotC its grade A stuff.  It doesn't match high grade Golden Demon quality paint jobs, but its toy soldiers in 3d for some folks like me.  I have better things to do in my free time than assemble and paint miniatures.  I am resentful all my free time for one entire week was spent assembling and basecoating a 1500 point Tau megaforce that already had one assembled tank from back when House was in its first season.  (Its pretty much made me swear off any painting till after Halloween at least.  I might clean up and prime my Battletech mechs, but that'll be about it.)  The game system is good, the prices are pretty reasonable overall (Full color army books for 12 bucks retail?  Dreadnought sized machines either cheaper or bigger and the same price?  Heck, their Terminator sized models are about the same cost.), and look cool (The Defender Snake is possibly one of the RADDEST miniature Dreadnought sized models I have seen.  Only some of the Warmachine Jacks come close.) plus the story is pretty awesome and not because its ridiculously silly.  (Korean War in space NATO vs Russian analogues who also have to fight off/deal with sentient gorillas in powered armor who smoke cigars & wear eyepatches and a transhuman alien race who wants to put every star in the universe into Dyson spheres so the universe will never die out.  And they put the humans on the planet in the first place to prep the world for it!)  Ill give you their old Confronation stuff blows away what we have seen of the prepaint plastics for that though.

Ok, that's enough on miniatures wargames probably 2 people give a shit about.

On to other things: I really wasn't angry at Schild.  Its more blowing off steam from work at an easy target.  (Doubling my feelings of GIANT DOUCHE WHY ARE YOU SAYING MEAN THINGS? as its not very nice.  Amusing in an utterly childish way though.)

I do think the Wii has a good chance at making niche games do well.  A wider audience and cheaper dev cost means more games other than RTS/FPS/Sports/Gangster have a chance to flourish.  Heck, Wii Ware's earliest releases include Impossible Mission remake!  (COME STAY A WHILE, STAY FOREVER!!)  I would probably be DUMB to hope for remakes of other classics like Archon, H.E.R.O., and pretty much EA's entire RPG library rights  (Ok, completely fucking stupid put down the goddamned crackpipe for the latter because EA are a giant shitstain on the unwashed underpants that is the games industry.) among other things.  (But imagine an updated Adventure Construction set using the Wiimote to place stuff.  With the new keyboard thingie it would probably be better suited to XBLA though..)

With the retro content there are a ton of genres the Wii already has a game for. 

(Of course the 360 has even more and NEW ones.  Catan and Carcasonne now with Talisman coming soon?  ROCK.)

The PS3 seemingly doesn't want to pull any of this action.

And as to HD, don't get me wrong it does look nicer, but improved resolutions don't make games more funner-er-er, its more dickwaving really.  Megamek isn't much improved by upmoded resolutions, neither is some of the other titles I have tested like Links 2003, Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries, or Dawn of War.  Its generally NICE TO HAVE, but it doesn't blow my mind or anything. 
See, this is nice, but it doesn't really accomplish much being sharper and more pixels in motion. 


And just because yall want some hate, I leave you with a little courtesy of  a 20 dollar waste of money I bought a month or so back:

[schild]

3 Wii games have scored above 90% on metacritic.
50 scored below 69%.

Just saying.

[Yegolev]

Without looking: Twilight Princess, RE4 and Metroid Prime?

[HAMMER FRENZY]

Jain Zar, you think you can post more pics of your toy collection?

[Mrbloodworth]

EQ2's graphics are hi-def, hi-res, technologically superior to WoW's low-res, low-poly graphics engine. EQ2's game design is to me a bit inferior to WoW's and thus I play WoW instead of EQ2. They are both good games, but I enjoy the lack of HD WoW more because of better game design.

Art direction is king, something i tried to point out before in this thread,... With my alien thought rays. I do not think the graphics for fatal frame will suffer from the  "Less power" hardware of the wii. In fact, it may even be better for it.

I see a lot of games that make bad choices , just because they have the hardware to ..er..."Cover it up" (Never really does). Then i see games aimed at lesser hardware, or some other type of limitation... Have really strong art direction, because they had little elbow room, and they used it to an advantage.

[NiX]

I see a lot of games that make bad choices

Whoever the fuck came up with bloom effects needs to rot and die and be pissed on by a thousand slugs that transmit anal cysts through urine. The big thing about Halo 3 that bothered me was how the General or whoever the fucks hat would GLOW. WHY DOES HIS HAT GLOW!? IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE!

[Mrbloodworth]

I see a lot of games that make bad choices

Whoever the fuck came up with bloom effects needs to rot and die and be pissed on by a thousand slugs that transmit anal cysts through urine. The big thing about Halo 3 that bothered me was how the General or whoever the fucks hat would GLOW. WHY DOES HIS HAT GLOW!? IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE!

Bloom effect can be used well, to add a subtle effect that really changes the mood.

Or it can be over used badly...

[Sky]

I like bloom effects. Maybe you haven't done enough acid yet.

[Jain Zar]

Jain Zar, you think you can post more pics of your toy collection?

Nah.  I'm getting ready to sell about half of it off anyhow.  Kinda silly to have and a big waste of money really.  Plus it makes dusting a bitch!

[tkinnun0]

HERE IS YOUR HD-GAMING JESUS: