TF2 Dedicated Server

[Samwise]

I don't mind the engy having to babysit his constructions to some extent, but I do wish the sapper was easier to remove (like one wrench whack instead of two or three).  Or that there was a delay before the spy was able to throw on new ones.  Or that they worked more slowly.  Or that the engineer had a better gun so that he could kill obvious approaching spies before they were able to plant the sapper and start dancing.  Or maybe the sentry could shoot at disguised spies if the engy looks at them and says "Spy!" in the voice menu.  (I have it bound to my F key.)

[Trippy]

The thing I hate the most about the Spy is the sapper ability which forces an Engineer to babysit his equipment on many if not most maps. The Engineer is far less fun to play in TF2 compared to the earlier versions. I don't mind there being another counter for sentries but not at the expense of ruining another class.

Er, I think engineers have always been expected to stay near their constructions. In TF and TFC, you had grenade spam so your sentry was always in danger from basically every class.

Though you suggest that the engineer is far less fun to play, obviously it isn't for most people since engineer is the most popular class based on the percentage of people who play them on various maps. You practically have to beg people with "I don't think we need 4 engineers on offense".

I played Engineer quite a bit in QWTF and I never felt as tethered to my equipment as I do in TF2 even with all the grenade spam back then. If I remember correctly only the Soldier's nail grenade could take out a fully upgraded turret in one application and only if it was dropped close enough.

One time on TF2 2fort one engineer wanted to take a smoke break so he set up a sentry in the Intel room and put his character on auto attack with the wrench. Against a cloaked Spy an AFK Engineer doing that is basically as effective as a non-AFK player since the best strategy if a cloaked Spy saps your turret AFAIK is to repair the turret. Repairing means you might die but your turret will likely survive and will kill the Spy if he attacks you. If you try and find the cloaked Spy you will almost certainly lose the turret unless you get a lucky shot off and you might die as well.

Of course you could have a Pyro with you guarding your equipment but that means you have all the Engineers stuck next to their equipment just in case the Pyro misses *and* you have a Pyro with the fire button held down just to counter sapping Spies.

[bhodi]

And, with all that, engineers are still the most popular class and sentry guns are still too powerful.

I can sap and knife before the engineer can repair it if the eng is doing nothing but repairing the sentry, or play the sapping game over and over again while the engineer tries in vain to repair his sentry. You can also sap and fire the gun twice at the sentry; The real lifesaver is a second person who notices what's going on.

Then again, spies are supposed to beat engineers since they are the only ones who are effective against turrets.

[Trippy]

Where does it say that the Engineer is the most popular class?

[Samwise]

Then again, spies are supposed to beat engineers since they are the only ones who are effective against turrets.

Except for soldiers.  And demomen.  And heavy/medic combos.  And anyone who has a shotgun and is good at corner-strafing.  And pretty much anyone else if it's in an open area.

[bhodi]

Where does it say that the Engineer is the most popular class?

I wish they'd publish stats. It's a rare day when you have two engineers or less on any server, though.

Yes, any class can take out a sentry gun given the right conditions, but with an optimum setup and an engineer+dispenser behind it, only the demoman's sticky bombs and a spy has any real chance.

Edit: Unless of course it's 3 vs 1, or two soldiers firing at the same time versus 1. Sentry guns chew up heavy+medic combos on their own; engineers can repair them faster than the heavy can damage it unless they're at point blank range.

[Jobu]

You guys with the F13 tags are shameless team stackers, at least whenever I poke my head in.

[Grand Design]

You guys with the F13 tags are shameless team stackers, at least whenever I poke my head in.

Yes, but I could argue that the opposition is better off with me on the f13 team.

[Prospero]

One time on TF2 2fort one engineer wanted to take a smoke break so he set up a sentry in the Intel room and put his character on auto attack with the wrench. Against a cloaked Spy an AFK Engineer doing that is basically as effective as a non-AFK player since the best strategy if a cloaked Spy saps your turret AFAIK is to repair the turret. Repairing means you might die but your turret will likely survive and will kill the Spy if he attacks you. If you try and find the cloaked Spy you will almost certainly lose the turret unless you get a lucky shot off and you might die as well.

If the spy can spam sappers then he will take out your sentry even if you are repairing it.

[Samwise]

Yes, any class can take out a sentry gun given the right conditions, but with an optimum setup and an engineer+dispenser behind it, only the demoman's sticky bombs and a spy has any real chance.

All you have to do is kill the dispenser and then the engy.  A bit tough with a heavy, but a soldier's rockets make it almost trivial.  The sentry gun's main role at that point is buying someone else on your team enough time to charge in and take out the attacker from the rear.

[Samwise]

One time on TF2 2fort one engineer wanted to take a smoke break so he set up a sentry in the Intel room and put his character on auto attack with the wrench. Against a cloaked Spy an AFK Engineer doing that is basically as effective as a non-AFK player since the best strategy if a cloaked Spy saps your turret AFAIK is to repair the turret. Repairing means you might die but your turret will likely survive and will kill the Spy if he attacks you. If you try and find the cloaked Spy you will almost certainly lose the turret unless you get a lucky shot off and you might die as well.

If the spy can spam sappers then he will take out your sentry even if you are repairing it.

If the engineer is literally AFK, he can also plant a sapper and have enough time to backstab the AFK engineer before the sapper is off.  The good spies are the ones who can do that against a non-AFK engineer.  Which is why I think it wouldn't be bad if sappers were a little easier to remove.  The damn things have more hit points than the spies do.

[Phildo]

Heh, it's boring as hell but having a Heavy camp at a dispenser and hold fire can totally decimate stupid attackers.

[Samwise]

A soldier can still tear that to pieces by rocketing the dispenser first (the heavy's strength is in sustained fire over a longer period of time, so the soldier completely owns him if he can pop in and out), but yeah, a heavy with a dispenser is generally better than a sentry.

[Prospero]

It really depends on the range. Last night I killed 4 or 5 soldiers in a row, without a dispenser, because the range was close enough I could chew them up. If they stay away I'm pretty much toast. The trick is making sure you have the high ground on the soldier. As Star Wars taught us, he who has the high ground magically wins.

[bhodi]

All you have to do is kill the dispenser and then the engy.  A bit tough with a heavy, but a soldier's rockets make it almost trivial.  The sentry gun's main role at that point is buying someone else on your team enough time to charge in and take out the attacker from the rear.

Remember, I'm talking about an optimum setup, maximum range where either the sentry gun itself is shielding the engineer and the dispenser behind him both, and not backed by a wall, or in an area where the sentry gun itself is the only thing that can be seen (up on a ledge, or built in a doorway where the engineer and dispenser is covered behind it). On the first, you end up having to fire a rocket beside the turret and angle it correctly so it explodes in the right place, beside the engineer.. All this while possibly getting fired on when you poke your head out a bit too far. On the second, you're fairly boned and need a spy or a demo to take the nest out.

Both are dangerous since you aren't fighting in a vacuum. A sentry works best when paired with an additional defender that can fire at you from within the sentry's arc of fire... you try to close or follow him behind a corner while he heals, you get sentrowned.

[Samwise]

I'd like to see a screenshot of this optimum setup you speak of.  I can't picture a spot on any of the maps where there's only one angle to shoot at a gun from (necessary for the engy to hide behind it) AND there's no wall behind there AND it's not possible to shoot at the gun from outside its range AND the spot is someplace that people might actually want to attack.  On most maps it's hard enough just to satisfy the last two conditions.

Agree that sentries are non-trivial to kill if the engineer is working with another defender, but it's hard to make the argument that sentries are in any way "too powerful" (your words exactly) if their efficient operation requires two players to be nearby and alert at all times.

[bhodi]

It's true you often can't achieve optimum all the time, the hardest thing is not to have a wall behind you.. Unfortunately, rarely possible to avoid it. What you *can* do, however, is either position against a wall or beside your turret in such a way that to see you or fire over your head into a wall they would have to go deeper inside the turret's arc.

A good example of that would be the 2nd area on those tug-of-war maps on the opposite side of the cap point where there's the pipe that goes to the underwater area. I know you've seen me set up in there; you're protected from rockets by your dispenser on one side, but on both sides the turrets get several shots at the solider before he can even see you -- this generally spoils their aim, even when at first glance it seems untenable.

There are several examples I can think of where you are simply out of sight and unable to be hit... in 2fort, in the ramp room, people cannot see the engineers from below, nor can they damage you if you've got a sentry on the grate (it's still dangerous because of demos). In the 5 cap point tug of war, in the middle area with the cap point on a raised platform and cargo containers, you can climb up the ramp, put a dispenser against the inside wall, and plant a turret facing outwards. There is no way to get to you except from behind; of course they can still fire rockets at your sentry but you can repair just as fast as a single solider damages it (and sometimes two, if the rockets are timed badly). The same goes for putting the sentries on the cargo containers themselves; You can't be seen from below, and they can only lob rockets at your visible sentry from within it's arc of fire (you place it in the center, facing the cap point, on the edge -- you can't see it from behind or from the sides at all)

There are several good sentry areas on the assault-type maps; the one in the room of the first cap point is a terrific one -- the doorway is small enough that rockets will hit your sentry, and the only real way to assault that position is underneath, up the stairs.

Unfortunately, I can't fill in the names of the maps mentally, but I'll start taking screenshots starting tonight -- I need to help budding engineers place their sentries anyway...

Efficient operation requires 2 players to be nearby and alert only when protecting against the classes that can counter sentries (spies, demomen). I'm trying to, I guess, convince people (and you) that any other class (including soldiers, including a hw-medic combo) stands no chance against a well placed sentry if there's an engineer hiding behind and repairing it... and I feel that's overpowered.

[Samwise]

in 2fort, in the ramp room, people cannot see the engineers from below

As schild is fond of pointing out, sentries in the ramp room can generally be destroyed by any class from below.  Shoot between the stairs, pyro-flame through the catwalk, etc.  And the engy is pretty exposed in most of those spots, so he tends to die while repairing his gun if the attacker is a soldier or a pyro.  The only exception I can think of where the engy can hide in any way is the top of the steep staircase, and a sentry in that spot can be destroyed at range by anyone who can jump up to the battlements (scouts, soldiers, demomen).

nor can they damage you if you've got a sentry on the grate (it's still dangerous because of demos)

I've never had a sentry on the grate pose any sort of threat to me as a soldier whatsoever.  It's ridiculously easy to rocket, and the grate room is tightly enclosed enough that the engy usually eats a rocket even if you aren't aiming at him specifically.  The grate also provides enough cover from the sentry itself that scouts can run right by without getting hit, IIRC.

. In the 5 cap point tug of war, in the middle area with the cap point on a raised platform and cargo containers, you can climb up the ramp, put a dispenser against the inside wall, and plant a turret facing outwards.

If the dispenser is against the wall, it's trivial to kill.

The same goes for putting the sentries on the cargo containers themselves

As fond as I am of that tactic, putting them up high like that makes them easily snipable, since they're visible from a long distance away.  ANY class can demolish a sentry that has a LOS to it that's further than its firing range.

There are several good sentry areas on the assault-type maps; the one in the room of the first cap point is a terrific one -- the doorway is small enough that rockets will hit your sentry, and the only real way to assault that position is underneath, up the stairs.

You're talking about the second stage of Dustbowl, right?  I'm fond of that one too, but the last few times I've tried it I get demolished by hails of rockets from outside.  The cover that the doorway provides works both ways by limiting the sentry's arc of fire and allowing soldiers to rocket pretty much the entire room.  Doesn't take more than a couple of salvoes to destroy the dispenser and blow me into giblets.  (Of course, in an ideal world this buys your teammates time to hit him from the other direction, but providing a distraction of a few seconds is something that just about anyone can do.)

[Strazos]

One thing that annoys me, as a sniper, is the hitmap of the sentry; it tends to ignore shots to the rocket pod, and you're unable to shoot through the "open space" in the sentry, such as through the ammo belt loop, or between the legs of the sentry.

If the hitmap was more precise, taking out engineers would be a lot simpler.

You guys with the F13 tags are shameless team stackers, at least whenever I poke my head in.

It's not team stacking when we're not a clan, and some people are....not as experienced with the game.

[Phildo]

We're not a clan?  Holy shit, there goes my sense of validation!

[Jamiko]

Finally got some time in on an f13 server tonight, mostly as a medic. I've never played TF2 (or TF for that matter) before so it is all new to me. I really liked it and I think I did an ok job for my first time playing. Hope to spend a lot more time getting used to the medic.

Was a lot of fun, thanks guys!

[Venkman]

I don't mind having to babysit the equipment much, but there are some maps where that is more fun than others. Granary for one, it makes sense given how the checkpoints are laid out. Also one of those custom maps (looks like Legos). Basically, any map where holding a critical point is a fulltime job for some.

Had a lot of fun the other night where we had three Engineers on two turrets and three Dispensers, bouncing around healing that stuff while the Pyro was keeping the Spies off our back.

[Samwise]

I got tired of waiting for Valve to fix the "missing vtex.dll" bug and downloaded a VTF editor (VTFEdit).  Attached are the two tags I've made so far.  To use them, put them in this folder:

  team fortress 2\tf\materials\VGUI\logos

and put another copy of them in:

  team fortress 2\tf\materials\VGUI\logos\UI

Then you can do the "Import" thing from in-game and it'll add the imported texture to your tag list. 

If you want to make your own, make a 256x256 image in the image editor of your choice, use VTFEdit to convert it to VTF format, and follow the instructions above.  256x256 seems to be the perfect size; anything smaller will get upscaled and look grainy (I need to do a new version of that Batman tag for that reason) and anything larger will get rejected because it's too big.

[rattran]

You can also make tags in CS:S and copy them over, if you don't want to use the vtf editor.

[Azazel]

It's not team stacking when we're not a clan, and some people are....not as experienced with the game.

n00b question, but.. what's "team stacking"?

[Megrim]

Same as a premade stack in a BG in WoW. Basically, knowing that all the decent players are on one side and joining anyway. It's not generally noticeable, except when clan tags are involved.

[Ookii]

It's not team stacking when we're not a clan, and some people are....not as experienced with the game.

n00b question, but.. what's "team stacking"?

Everyone who's in 'the know' joining blue when the game starts.

Or it could be described as f13ers, freshfruit, bladeweaver, and dannyb on the same team, which happens more often than not.

[Phildo]

Wow, I played on a non-F13 server for the first time since I actually figured out how to play the game, and... the caliber of player on the F13 server is just so much better.  Wow.

[jiffy]

Everyone who's in 'the know' joining blue when the game starts.

Or it could be described as f13ers, freshfruit, bladeweaver, and dannyb on the same team....

And moi.  :)

The custom and Ivory Tower are the first servers I look for.  I have more fun playing with you guys (and the corp crew) than I do on a random pub.  Like Ooki said, the caliber of people is just that much better here.

[Ookii]

What's the deal with Jfish people?  I hear he's a cheatorz.

[rattran]

The only cheating I've seen Jfish do is 4 rocket jumps in a row, landing at full health. Either there's some timing to it that avoids damage, or he's a haxxor.

Jonus kept backstabbing me in the face last night, but I think that's just the vagaries of timing. Fucking spies.

[NiX]

The only cheating I've seen Jfish do is 4 rocket jumps in a row, landing at full health.

Yeah, that's definitely cheating.

[rattran]

Well, according to the dirtbag shitcock asshats at planetmayhem, as of Saturday, the following hacks work undetected in TF2:

Seren1ty aimbot (7.0) Instant max-damage snipe shot
Enemy Radar
Super-fast shooting sticky grenades
Various 'color the enemy loud' mods
Toggleable damage immunity.
'make all players glow through the walls'

they're invading my motherfucking.

[Ookii]

Well, according to the dirtbag shitcock asshats at planetmayhem, as of Saturday, the following hacks work undetected in TF2:

Seren1ty aimbot (7.0) Instant max-damage snipe shot
Enemy Radar
Super-fast shooting sticky grenades
Various 'color the enemy loud' mods
Toggleable damage immunity.
'make all players glow through the walls'

they're invading my motherfucking.

Bah.  Let's not get paranoid now...

[schild]

Seren1ty aimbot (7.0) Instant max-damage snipe shot

Well fuck. That would explain last night.

Super-fast shooting sticky grenades

Seen that also. Not on f13 though.