Oh Lineage 2, how I love to hate you

[HaemishM]

That one wing character race is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Does it try to fly and just flop around in circles?

Lineage 2... We Make DBZ Hentai Look Intelligent (TM). 

[Soukyan]

Yes, Falconeer. I saw the screenshot on the marketing page for the expansion. I'm just dumbfounded at the idea. Surely they could have come up with something better, like growing both wings back slowly over time as you level so the wings get larger until 79 and then the quest line allows you to "train" in using them again. In a similar manner to rehabilitation for learning how to walk again when your legs haven't been used for a long time due to injury. You get the idea. I think even that would have been better than the one wing flop idea. *sigh* I can't say I expect something better, but... one wing?

[geldonyetich2]

I don't know, it makes about as much sense to me as Sephiroth turning into a half-naked seraphim at the end.  You just have to consider the general worldly region of origin.

[Soukyan]

I don't know, it makes about as much sense to me as Sephiroth turning into a half-naked seraphim at the end.  You just have to consider the general worldly region of origin.

One winged angels are commonplace in Lineage 2's country of origin? Please to be 'splainin'.

[geldonyetich2]

Didn't say, "Country", I said "general worldly region."  Suffice to say, inexplicable feathers and angel hybrids are consider chic and cool in the anime and popular culture over there.  (The management is not responsible for loss of brain matter from poorly made AMVs.)  It's probably reached the point where people see one-winged angels earning their second wing and go, "Oh, well that's kind of different, neat."

[Nerf]

I used to play dev on a number of private servers, for those wondering about this latest content expansion, I'd say give it a few months a few of them will have it, the community that does actually work on it gets shit done at a fairly brisk pace.


Prviate servers can be great, the grind is a lot less tedius at 5x-7x xp/sp/$, and it's quite a bit easier to find a working copy of l2walker, which basically turns l2 into a much shinier progress quest, that is at times more fun to play.

Now, for the downsides.  I hope you like polish/brazalians/generic_poor_eastern_european_country_001, because that's all you're going to be playing with, and chances are that server isn't going to be around for too terribly long, so be prepared to lose everything at a moments notice.  Aside from that, it can be great fun.

[Falconeer]

It's probably reached the point where people see one-winged angels earning their second wing and go, "Oh, well that's kind of different, neat."

Alas... guilty. 

[Chenghiz]

I dunno, I think that one wing looks pretty fine. 

[K9]

I don't know, it makes about as much sense to me as Sephiroth turning into a half-naked seraphim at the end.  You just have to consider the general worldly region of origin.

Well, Jenova had a decidedly angelic feel as I recall, and he was the spawn of Jenova? I might be wrong, I enjoy Final Fanatsy games, but usually get lost around the inevitable "plot twist" which usually involves some revelation that you are in fact a dream, or something...

[Falconeer]

Useless OFFICIAL facts straight from the admin at the official boards.

Lineage II North America/Europe Fun Facts

    * Number of free major content updates: 6
    * Number of contests and events: 42
    * Number of characters at level 80 (highest level): 33
    * Number of clans: 57,285
    * Number of Striders: 7,233
    * Number of Chrono souvenir items: 2,418,054
    * Number of pets (Hatchlings, Wolf, Baby pets): 128,898
    * Number of characters created since launch: 3,821,773
    * Number of castle sieges since launch: 2,228
    * Number of deaths since launch: 618,978,656
    * Number of chaotic characters: 86,176

Now, let's talk about 33 chars at top level 3 years after launch. At first I thought they are crazy and deserve to die. But then I remembered when I posted an old Brad's line where he said that in his vision the leveling should never end. I tought he was crazy too but a few here commented such thing in a surprising way. Now let's forget for a moment about Lineage 2 and let's focus on a MMORPG with just 33 chars at top level after 3 years. What do you think?

[schild]

I don't it matters since Lineage 2 isn't fun. Someone will always suffer through a game to hit the highest level. But that has nothing to do with whether or not the game is fun or should be looked at for lessons.

Particularly when that lesson is "some motherfuckers will play anything."

[Soukyan]

Now let's forget for a moment about Lineage 2 and let's focus on a MMORPG with just 33 chars at top level after 3 years. What do you think?

Since you can lose experience and levels in PvP in Lineage 2, I would say that that number is probably constantly in flux and may never really increase much. I am guessing that once people get close to the high level, they are involved in so much PvP that it become almost impossible to attain and maintain the level.

As for MMOGs as a whole, if the game were fun, I would have no problem with not racing to reach the maximum level. Of course, Diku MUDs of the past have shown us that a lot of people like to play for some sort of achievement and the most common type is levels and "power". So WoW's popularity (heavily generalized) is in part due to the ability for almost any player to reach the maximum level with one, if not many characters, in a reasonable amount of time, for gamers. And it isn't just WoW either. I think a lot of MMOGs have taken this same path. Making the game "casual" for the sake of attracting more players. Let's face it, the death penalty is a minor inconvenience in a lot of current MMOGs. Not that I am against that, because I cannot invest a large amount of time in regaining major losses in a game, but for some the lack of a harsher death penalty is a turn-off. But mostly, I think those people are in the minority and are probably playing games such as UO, Vanguard, and Lineage 2 among others.

From the perspective of a game administrator, having a handful of players maxxed out after 3 years is a good thing as long as I am not losing the total number of players in my sandbox. After all, a game only needs so many heroes and immortals, right? Wasn't that the premise of MUDs as well. Level up and play for a long time and become a permanent fixture or an employee. Since MMOGs are bigger in terms of population, chances are greatly lowered that a player will gain any notoriety beyond their own server and even smaller that the player will become an employee, although perhaps an unpaid tester of high-end beta content. I would be interested to see the number of players between levels 70-80. That would be more telling as it probably only takes one or two deaths to lose level 80. There may be thousands of level 78 and 79 characters in which case, the game is no different in that respect than other MMOGs.

[ShenMolo]

Also, are the private servers able to use the free expansions when they come out?

Also, Boten Anna ftw

The private server I know of (I-Dragon) does update the game, usually within a couple months of the official updates.

[Falconeer]

For the records, I tried that I-dragon private server in the last few days and despite some glitches (there are no pole weapons in stores over lev 40, so a few classes are screwed), I had a lot of fun getting to level 40 in like 3 hours with piles of money and skill points cause it I felt like I was slowly building my char for the eventual PvP which is supposed to be the meaning of the game. That way leveling feels like a tutorial of your character class whereas the conflict is/will soon be the actual game.
Too bad I couldn't try that PvP yet (got stuck with leveling multiple chars to level 40) but I have to repeat myself in saying that you shouldn't slow down players in PvP games and to me the latest xp-accelerated Shadowbane and this unofficial 35x Lineage II prove the point very well. Give players 2 weeks to cap the class and get familiar with it and then let them war each other (Which was, in a way, the original plan with Guild Wars, wasn't it?).
In competitive persistant games Players should best each other on coordination, skill (I wish), strategy, planning, whatever. Not in catassing. *moan*

In case you didn't notice, I really miss a good PvP MMORPG (no instantiated arenas, no spaceships. *moan again*

(And here comes smartass #356 saying who cares Shadowbane and Lineage are crap no matter the xp blah blah that's not competitive blah blah mario galaxy is fun this is not blah blah just you die scum please fix your brain pedobear for the win awesome for reals and don't forget the cake, which isn't real. Yeah I know, thanks for the remainder.)

[damijin]

By the by, as someone who catassed in L2 for a number of years:

The PvP isn't that amazing. The reason people think it is, is because most of the people who play L2 at high levels are highly involved in the game. Deeply attached to their characters, their clans, and their achievements. They hate their enemies, and occasionally someone takes things too far.

Still, the actual PvP is only fun because of this degree of seriousness, and the insane amount of time that clan members have spent bonding and learning to play with each other. Private servers are unable to replicate this because as Schild said, the game itself is not particularly fun. But because of the clan-centric way that the game is designed, there is a good amount of entertainment to be had for those who become involved.

Anyway, about the number of people at 80. That actually surprises me. With the prevalence of botting in Lineage, I would have expected more, but the grind after 76 is truly ridiculous, even with 24/7 automation and the perfect buffs. Also, most players that high would have subclassed by that point. Subclassing allows you to adopt a second class to your main, and restart the grind from level 40 with that new class. If you reach level 76 on your sub class, you become a noble, which affords you a lot of nice abilities and makes you eligible for hero status. There are 30-something heroes per server, one for each class. They are determined monthly by an automated PvP tournament system.

[Falconeer]

The PvP isn't that amazing. The reason people think it is, is because most of the people who play L2 at high levels are highly involved in the game. Deeply attached to their characters, their clans, and their achievements. They hate their enemies, and occasionally someone takes things too far.

Still, the actual PvP is only fun because of this degree of seriousness, and the insane amount of time that clan members have spent bonding and learning to play with each other. Private servers are unable to replicate this because as Schild said, the game itself is not particularly fun. But because of the clan-centric way that the game is designed, there is a good amount of entertainment to be had for those who become involved.

This sounds very true to my ears, and not just for Lineage 2. Still, I am wondering if that isn't the point of MMORPG PvP after all SO FAR. The fun comes, again so far, much more from the social and antisocial layers which coat the PvP experience than from the actual playing your character to win.
It's the same old story about Battlefield 2 and Tekken being satisfying competitive games even when you practice against bots while MMORPGs need the human, and the drama, element to give you the feeling that you are having fun.

[rk47]

Which is why I kinda gave up after half the clan decided to bot to remain competitive.
The enemies just bought gold and power levelling services. Half the time we killed time, some chinese farmers were powerlevelling them. Pretty sad way to compete really.

[tmp]

If you reach level 76 on your sub class, you become a noble, which affords you a lot of nice abilities and makes you eligible for hero status.

Can't help but agree with this way of thinking, someone who manages to grind all way up not once but twice in a row sounds like perfect candidate to become a hero.

[geldonyetich2]

Well, Jenova had a decidedly angelic feel as I recall[...]

Hmm, I guess you're right.  I didn't notice the shriveled wings in the background and thought all this time I had peeked at a some kind of elf corpse.

[SurfD]

Somewhat side tangent, but I always thought the "one wing" metaphor worked best in the way they tossed it in in the little religious backstory blurb in Xenogears, with the male and female statues in that church that each had one wing a piece, meaning that in order to actually fly, they had to work together, in harmony, to achieve their goal.

[Falconeer]

This official movie (156 MB) shows the one-wings and the two-winged final forms very well.
Visuals in this game were, are and will probably stay awesome for a long time more. I'm amazed.

[geldonyetich2]

If only it played as well as it looked.

[Falconeer]

I'll push it a little forward. If only it played HALF as well as it looks.

[Cheddar]

I am resubbing today.  Sigh, why do I do this to myself?   

[Soukyan]

I am resubbing today.  Sigh, why do I do this to myself?   

Screen shots, please. Seriously.

[Kail]

Somewhat side tangent, but I always thought the "one wing" metaphor worked best in the way they tossed it in in the little religious backstory blurb in Xenogears, with the male and female statues in that church that each had one wing a piece, meaning that in order to actually fly, they had to work together, in harmony, to achieve their goal.

Ah, so I guess that explains the reasoning behind giving players who've ground to max level in Lineage two wings of their own, then.

[damijin]

I am resubbing today.  Sigh, why do I do this to myself?   

Screen shots, please. Seriously.

If anyone is interested in seeing L2 in action for reasons other than watching Cheddar cause his own mental anguish, the L2 community has set up a rather nice online video alternative for MMO PvP related movies. Youtube and video.google resolutions suck, and they don't allow for direct downloading of the original file, so L2 video junkies set up LivePvP. There's also videos from other games up there, but it hasn't caught on very much in any other communities yet.

Westerners tend to be a bit long winded in their movie making, and more interested in analyzing PvP strategy than looking at the pretty graphics. This is a pretty short dagger movie filmed by 'dvp', who was the Russian player that murdered another player last year in real life. Prior to that event he was known for his videos --  these days he is mostly known for getting ass-raped in Russian prison. In case you're wondering, the stupid light-bulb glow around his body is because he is the hero for his class on the server.

The videos featuring more large scale PvP tend to be massive compilation projects like Rivals II, which features some pretty slick production values, but goes on for a whopping 26 minutes and isn't very appealing to people who have no idea what the game is about.

Good spontaneous PvP is somewhat of a rarity as you might expect with any game. Although L2 probably has some of the largest spontaneous fights in any modern MMO, they are still pretty few and far between. Because of that, the clans tend to record most of their fights and turn them into videos to relive the awesomeness of that one unlikely fight, and drive propaganda against their enemy by sharing the video with the community so everyone can see them get their asses kicked. It's sort of an interesting phenomena, and has created thousands upon thousands of L2 videos around the world.

[Count Nerfedalot]

... the clans tend to record most of their fights and turn them into videos to relive the awesomeness of that one unlikely fight, and drive propaganda against their enemy by sharing the video with the community so everyone can see them get their asses kicked. It's sort of an interesting phenomena, and has created thousands upon thousands of L2 videos around the world.

and once again art imitates life imitates art imitates...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6423946

[Morfiend]

Do any of you remember that fantastic guy that found his way here after Haemish's review hit the main Lineage site? The one who said his hardcore playing of lineage was making him more ready for things to come, and his quote (I will never forget this) was great "Lineage 2 where the hardecore sons of emo bitches play". I wish I could find his posts. They make me happy.

*edit* I found it.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=7456.msg200165#msg200165

[damijin]

Do any of you remember that fantastic guy that found his way here after Haemish's review hit the main Lineage site? The one who said his hardcore playing of lineage was making him more ready for things to come, and his quote (I will never forget this) was great "Lineage 2 where the hardecore sons of emo bitches play". I wish I could find his posts. They make me happy.

*edit* I found it.

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=7456.msg200165#msg200165

That was the first thread I ever posted in on f13, it was pretty upsetting to have the game I played represented by that guy.

[HaemishM]

But then you realized that guy was right, he just took less testicle-smashing and head-banging to figure it out, AMIRITE?

[Cheddar]

I am actually enjoying it.  Levelling curve was addressed (I am closing in on 30 now).  It is a LOT of grinding on mobs, but that is ok with me (rest baby in lap, click click click, turn in quest stuff/rinse repeat).  Unfortunetely FFH2@ is calling my name, so I will probably take a break for a few days to enjoy the love.

[Morfiend]

I am actually enjoying it.  Levelling curve was addressed (I am closing in on 30 now).  It is a LOT of grinding on mobs, but that is ok with me (rest baby in lap, click click click, turn in quest stuff/rinse repeat).  Unfortunetely FFH2@ is calling my name, so I will probably take a break for a few days to enjoy the love.

I feel that it better prepared myself for future MMO's to come.  Because if you can make it in Lineage 2 and last, then you can make it in any MMO.

Are you prepared?

[Falconeer]

I am actually enjoying it.  Levelling curve was addressed (I am closing in on 30 now).  It is a LOT of grinding on mobs, but that is ok with me (rest baby in lap, click click click, turn in quest stuff/rinse repeat).  Unfortunetely FFH2@ is calling my name, so I will probably take a break for a few days to enjoy the love.

I totally understand. I am level 38 now and I usually grind 4 hours a day WHILE watching a movie or two in a parallel window box. That works like a charm, especially when the movie sucks, cause I don't feel like I totally wasted my time as at the end credits I usually have 20% more XP than before. The opposite is true too, as I don't feel like I am wasting my time grinding because I watched a movie meanwhile.

Now if only I could remember why am I doing all this...


P.S: Cheddar, when the hell are you coming here? Next Spring? 
 

[HaemishM]

Now if only I could remember why am I doing all this...

Because you forgot to take your meds?