Question for people in the know.

[Pennilenko]

Currently my wife and i are playing Vanguard. (please dont hurt me) We are vastly unhappy with the game at times but we stick to it because of a few mechanics that make it impossible to enjoy EQ2 anymore.

1. Seperate defensive and offensive targets with smart spells that know which target to go to.
2. Casting or using abilities while moving.

Why do any of the better MMO's not give us this functionality? What are the issues around having/not having these mechanics in EQ2 or WoW?


Desperately hoping that some of the new MMO's comming out have similar functionality.

[Mrbloodworth]

Currently my wife and i are playing Vanguard. (please dont hurt me) We are vastly unhappy with the game at times but we stick to it because of a few mechanics that make it impossible to enjoy EQ2 anymore.

1. Seperate defensive and offensive targets with smart spells that know which target to go to.
2. Casting or using abilities while moving.

Why do any of the better MMO's not give us this functionality? What are the issues around having/not having these mechanics in EQ2 or WoW?


Desperately hoping that some of the new MMO's comming out have similar functionality.

Those features are nice. And i am sure new MMOs will fold this in to that "Standard" that creeps along slowly.

[Pennilenko]

We have about a year invested in EQ2, we love our characters there.

Its just rough when you've retrained yourself to bahave in the newer better mechanics only to have that game tank harder than an M1 Abrams.

[ajax34i]

COH has 1. 

WoW has implemented limited functionality re: 1, you can have the spell default to self if there's no target or it's the wrong type of target.  WoW, however, has a decent macro system whereby you can build some of this auto-selecting of targets yourself, customized to you.  On top of that, the UI can be modified, so theoretically WoW has 1 too.

I will say, though, that even though I've played COH and it was nice to have spells automatically hit the friend or the foe, without me having to switch targets, this stuff was never at the top of the list of must-have's for MMO's I play.  So, eh.

Number 2, casting while moving, is I think a matter of balance more than convenience; devs often use "instant" spells that you can cast while moving, vs. regular spells that you have to stand still to cast, to balance spells out.  Big hitting spells = long to cast, and you have to stand still and be vulnerable, I suppose.

[taolurker]

In terms of the casting while moving mechanic, it's actually based on the original rulesets of every pen and paper game, whereby spells require a caster to concentrate, not move, and include verbal, somatic (getures/movements) or spells components to complete a spell. Casting times in MMOs are emulating this, and often the cast time includes animations or effects to further link them to this original formulation of casting spells. Casting times, mana bars, and spell "refresh" times are ways of keeping spells from being overpowered, chain casted or exploited.

Moving while casting should not be enabled in the case of MMOs anyway, because of the infinite ability for this to be exploited through kiting of enemies.

I seriously don't understand the problem switching targets during combat, and if that's an impediment to playing a game then I call that laziness and lack of skill. Devs catering to this type of whiny non-complaint only reduce the amount of skill required, ease the soloing/exploiting ability, and add to the amount of mouth-breathing asshats who don't know or can't assume their role inside their games.

"Ooo look I'm role-playing a chimp behind a keyboard" does not make for a fun or challenging game, but me, I enjoy tactics, skill, and overcoming artificial difficulty because it makes it feel worth more than any achievement, lewt or levels.

edited because I can't see to type m's today

[Pennilenko]

In terms of the casting while moving mechanic, it's actually based on the original rulesets of every pen and paper game, whereby spells require a caster to concentrate, not move, and include verbal, somatic (getures/movements) or spells components to complete a spell. Casting times in MMOs are emulating this, and often the cast time includes animations or effects to further link them to this original formulation of casting spells. Casting times, mana bars, and spell "refresh" times are ways of keeping spells from being overpowered, chain casted or exploited.

Moving while casting should not be enabled in the case of MMOs anyway, because of the infinite ability for this to be exploited through kiting of enemies.

I seriously don't understand the problem switching targets during combat, and if that's an impediment to playing a game then I call that laziness and lack of skill. Devs catering to this type of whiny non-complaint only reduce the amount of skill required, ease the soloing/exploiting ability, and add to the amount of mouth-breathing asshats who don't know or can't assume their role inside their games.

"Ooo look I'm role-playing a chimp behind a keyboard" does not make for a fun or challenging game, but me, I enjoy tactics, skill, and overcoming artificial difficulty because it makes it feel worth more than any achievement, lewt or levels.

edited because I can't see to type m's today

Thank you for the first part of your response. For the last part of your post I was put off a bit but I understand your angst. If I understand correctly you are implying that because i like those features in a game that was designed around those mechanics I am lazy and also an exploiter.

I was just asking the pro's why such systems weren't implemented before in games like world of warcraft or everquest 2.

I can also see that you believe an MMO sucks unless it punishes you each and every minute logged on. To me at least i don't play MMOs to accomplish anything other than cheap entertainment with my wife and relaxation.

When i want something to be meaningfull or to fill me with a sense of accomplishment, I choose to spend my attention on real world activities. I am sorry for you if those things are not within your grasp in real life and that you need to turn to gaming for those feelings. Don't cheapen my playing or desires because you need to feel worthy in a virtual environment.

Vanguard has so many broken poorly designed things except for one thing. They have the best healers out of any MMO, simply the most fun to play. You know what feature allows healers to throw off the shackles of being a heal bot? Separate Defensive and Offensive targets.

I really think seperating targets into two types is a revolutionary mechanic that will take class design to new levels. I will just have to disagree with you on the topic of moving while casting.

I think the type of narrow elitism that exists in your opinion of MMOs and their mechanics is the very reason the genre sucks right now.

Or possibly im just an idiot, and you shouldn't even really pay attention to what i Say.

So hey, guys, how bout some discussion on the question i asked without trying to make me feel like less of a player in the process.

[shiznitz]

I only play melee in EQ2 but I would have sworn that this mechanic is in. If the healer targets the tank, then heal spells hit the tank and nukes hit the tank's target. I know that when I am not MT on a raid, I can buff the MT by targeting him while still attacking the mob without changing my targeting.

I only played VG as a nuker, so if that game does it differently, I missed it.

[tazelbain]

Pennilenko: we are just mean around here, so be prepared to write a throusand "Why are you being so mean to me" posts.

I'd rather have EQ2's "target through" mechanics, but I don't see why you couldn't leave it up to user to choose since from a UI perpective it's the same.

[Musashi]

WoW, at some point, added /focus.  Not that many people use it, as they learned to play before it was in the game.  Don't know why more people don't though.  I used it on my mage for poly, and it was win.  I think they added functionality for it before the standard ui would even support it, so you had to have a addon unit frame to even see it.  Pretty sure the standard ui uses it now.  That and not a lot of casual people take the time to figure out what kind of advantage macros give them.

[Mrbloodworth]

IIRCC, not all spells in Vanguard are cast while moving. I could be wrong.

[palmer_eldritch]

1. Seperate defensive and offensive targets with smart spells that know which target to go to.

This is one of those things that seem incredibly obvious as soon as somebody does it. Hopefully it will become the standard in future games.

[Pennilenko]

Pennilenko: we are just mean around here, so be prepared to write a throusand "Why are you being so mean to me" posts.

I'd rather have EQ2's "target through" mechanics, but I don't see why you couldn't leave it up to user to choose since from a UI perpective it's the same.

Not that mean, you guys at least dont make people jump through rediculous hoops to get posting rights.

Im not normally that "why are you being so mean guy." I just wanted to open up with a good discussion.

[taolurker]

I only play melee in EQ2 but I would have sworn that this mechanic is in. If the healer targets the tank, then heal spells hit the tank and nukes hit the tank's target. I know that when I am not MT on a raid, I can buff the MT by targeting him while still attacking the mob without changing my targeting.

I only played VG as a nuker, so if that game does it differently, I missed it.

I always accomplish this by making an /assist target macro, no matter the game.

You target the main tank previous to combat, assist him and you are targetting the mob, and if the main tank is doing his job of aggro management correctly, then /assist-ing the mob should target your tank for a heal. Having seperate targets for offensive and defensive eliminates a single well timed button press, assuming you know what you're doing. There's often a need to heal other targets besides a defensive one too, and a healer who can't heal the rest of the party too isn't much of a healer (/assist will also save 90% of squishy casters getting pounded instead of the tank).


To Pennilenko:

If you are offended by what I posted:
1. Get a thicker skin (PS just because I generalize does not mean I was personally attacking you, although possibly your playstyle)
2. Figure out exactly why a single button is too hard to do
3. Learn the mechanics before you make your own generalizations/opinions
 

I can also see that you believe an MMO sucks unless it punishes you each and every minute logged on. To me at least i don't play MMOs to accomplish anything other than cheap entertainment with my wife and relaxation.

I never said anything about punishment, I just prefer something challenging, where you wanting relaxation and entertainment would probably just prefer "easier". The sense of challenge isn't a draw for you, but obviously a single button press isn't all that much of a challenge or punishment either.

When i want something to be meaningfull or to fill me with a sense of accomplishment, I choose to spend my attention on real world activities. I am sorry for you if those things are not within your grasp in real life and that you need to turn to gaming for those feelings. Don't cheapen my playing or desires because you need to feel worthy in a virtual environment.

I said I DON'T play games because of achievement, lewt, or levels, and am satisfied with challenge, skill and tactics... but.. From someone who can't manage a single button press I can see why you would attempt to insult my real life or feel I've cheapened your playing with my stating my opinion. I guess you were offended by my inferring your laziness or a button press being too hard for you from my generalizations, so I'll just take your personal attacks with a grain of salt.

I've had plenty of meaningful accomplishments in real life, thanks, but your question had nothing to do with them.

I think the type of narrow elitism that exists in your opinion of MMOs and their mechanics is the very reason the genre sucks right now

I agree with you that narrow elitism exists, and I'd also consider your opinion that mechanics need to be dumbed down more just as much a narrow elitist view (and one I feel is attempting to eliminate gaming skill).

[Pennilenko]

I only play melee in EQ2 but I would have sworn that this mechanic is in. If the healer targets the tank, then heal spells hit the tank and nukes hit the tank's target. I know that when I am not MT on a raid, I can buff the MT by targeting him while still attacking the mob without changing my targeting.

I only played VG as a nuker, so if that game does it differently, I missed it.

I always accomplish this by making an /assist target macro, no matter the game.

You target the main tank previous to combat, assist him and you are targetting the mob, and if the main tank is doing his job of aggro management correctly, then /assist-ing the mob should target your tank for a heal. Having seperate targets for offensive and defensive eliminates a single well timed button press, assuming you know what you're doing. There's often a need to heal other targets besides a defensive one too, and a healer who can't heal the rest of the party too isn't much of a healer (/assist will also save 90% of squishy casters getting pounded instead of the tank).


To Pennilenko:

If you are offended by what I posted:
1. Get a thicker skin (PS just because I generalize does not mean I was personally attacking you, although possibly your playstyle)
2. Figure out exactly why a single button is too hard to do
3. Learn the mechanics before you make your own generalizations/opinions
 

I can also see that you believe an MMO sucks unless it punishes you each and every minute logged on. To me at least i don't play MMOs to accomplish anything other than cheap entertainment with my wife and relaxation.

I never said anything about punishment, I just prefer something challenging, where you wanting relaxation and entertainment would probably just prefer "easier". The sense of challenge isn't a draw for you, but obviously a single button press isn't all that much of a challenge or punishment either.

When i want something to be meaningfull or to fill me with a sense of accomplishment, I choose to spend my attention on real world activities. I am sorry for you if those things are not within your grasp in real life and that you need to turn to gaming for those feelings. Don't cheapen my playing or desires because you need to feel worthy in a virtual environment.

I said I DON'T play games because of achievement, lewt, or levels, and am satisfied with challenge, skill and tactics... but.. From someone who can't manage a single button press I can see why you would attempt to insult my real life or feel I've cheapened your playing with my stating my opinion. I guess you were offended by my inferring your laziness or a button press being too hard for you from my generalizations, so I'll just take your personal attacks with a grain of salt.

I've had plenty of meaningful accomplishments in real life, thanks, but your question had nothing to do with them.

I think the type of narrow elitism that exists in your opinion of MMOs and their mechanics is the very reason the genre sucks right now

I agree with you that narrow elitism exists, and I'd also consider your opinion that mechanics need to be dumbed down more just as much a narrow elitist view (and one I feel is attempting to eliminate gaming skill).

Dude we started off on the wrong foot. I obviously read to much into your response. Id rather have a discussion than insult slinging. Im sorry i started off that way.

I make full use of macro systems and i often rail against dumbing down MMO's for mass appeal. I had to tone it down though. I got married and my wife took an interest in MMO's. After hearing her opinions and her comments about various games we have played. I learned really quick that the elitism had to die. Its the very thing holding the genre back.

I also dont feel that the new style mechanics in vanguard is a dumbing down of anything, In fact i think it gives players more tactical choices during combat. Sure Diku style MMO's dont like their casters moving around. Why do we have to worship the diku standards? Which was just really a big rip off from pen and paper. Its not like you dont know this.

I heard it in an interview and i liked the comment. MMO is a technology not a genre. Diku based MMO's are a genre showcasing the technology.

You view these new things as dumbing down, i view them as neccessary evolution. More options.

Back to my original question, what would be stopping EQ2 from giving us the mechanics i spoke about? Surely they have an open window to incorporate such mechanics into their class balance considering they are looking at ways to redo the current combat/spell system to be more meaningfull.

Your closing comment about fearing skill becoming a non factor in future gaming. Its a very valid fear. I think the money men don't really get the average gamer or the mass gamer or the elite gamer. How do we combat the industry dumbing down?

[Murgos]

I never played Vanguard so please enlighten me as to what the practical difference is between their style of targeting and EQ2's implied target system?

[palmer_eldritch]

Instead of having the lifebar and name of target in the top right of the screen or wherever, you have two. A friendly target and an enemy target. Click on a groupmate or other friend and he is your friendly target (f1, f2 etc work like in most other games for targetting self and groupmate). Click on an enemy (or use tab) and that mob becomes your enemy target.

Attacks hit the enemy target, and heals/other nice things affect the friendly target.

Basically, if you are someone who both attacks and buffs or heals in a fight, it means slightly less clicking or button pressing.

[Arrrgh]

Have you looked at WoW targetting/focus addons? What do they not do that you want?

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/3416/

http://wow.curse.com/downloads/details/3802/

[Evildrider]

You can cast while moving in DDO.. but I think I'm the only one on the forums that plays it.   

[Venkman]

Pennilenko, in WoW, and I think in EQ2 though I could be wrong, if you have your friend/groupmate targeted and cast a damage/debuff spell, that spell automatically gets redirected to whatever they are fighting. This is in addition to being able to show "target of target" by default (in WoW anyway) as well as being able to use Fkeys to select.

VG's two-target system is cool, and easy to get used to. But other games offer variants on it. And both WoW and EQ2 are going to be way very much more friendly for a duo like you and your wife, both on time itself and how much of a sense of accomplishment you feel coming from a play session. LoTRO will as well, though the combat system there is not as responsive as you're used to.

[Murgos]

EQ2 gives you your target and your targets target.  If you target the mob then any damage spell you cast hurts the mob and any benevolent spell you cast heals/buffs/etc the mobs target hopefully your tank but very useful if agro is bouncing around a lot.  If you have a player targeted then any beneficial spell helps that player and any damage spell hit's that players target, if it's a mob of course which is useful for when you are fighting large encounters where target priority can change rapidly.

If you are a paladin and acting as main tank and you are trying to give a little heal to a group mate while keeping aggro it can be a bit awkward but mostly I think the system works pretty well.  It can be useful to go with a main assist designated for the DPS folks so that they concentrate on one target while the main tank bounces around keeping aggro from adds, but hardly necessary.  The two target system of VG sounds useful but not amazingly more so than EQ2's implied targets.

[lariac]

LOTRO has the ability to cast while moving as well.

Not sure about the smart spell thing though. Maybe some of the other classes, but i definitely know that minstrels don't have that ability. But then again, you can be close to a mob without targeting it and hit your attack, and it will cast on the nearest mob to you.

[Abelian75]

I agree that the defensive/offensive target idea is pretty useful, and while it's not as flexible as WoW's focus target, it's a lot more approachable.  That said, the main issue I see with the offensive/defensive system is that it's one more UI barrier to a new player.  Having a single target and knowing that casting a spell will affect that target is very intuitive.  Having two targets, one of which is affected by one set of spells and one of which is affected by another set isn't quite as immediately obvious.

That's not to say it isn't worth doing, but there is some tradeoff there.  Also, how do you do spells that can affect friend or foe with the offensive/defensive system?  And are neutral NPC's friend or foe?

[Jamiko]

LOTRO has the ability to cast while moving as well.

Not sure about the smart spell thing though. Maybe some of the other classes, but i definitely know that minstrels don't have that ability. But then again, you can be close to a mob without targeting it and hit your attack, and it will cast on the nearest mob to you.

There is a target forwarding setting in the options that allows you to target the tank and offensive damage goes to the tank's target but heals go to the tank.

[Lt.Dan]

The biggest problem with MMOG combat is that it hasn't evolved from Lum's "mobile bags of experience" rant.  Nibbling away with mechanics and UI isn't going to change that.  What MMOGs need is complexity through simple systems. 

I'm no designer but some of the most engaging games (eg Go, Chess) are based on very simple rulesets but the interaction of those rules and the intelligence of your opponent.  MMO designers can piss about with HAM, TR or Planetside targetting, level- or skill-based systems, or any other of the things MMO players list in those interminable "ideal MMO" threads and it's not going to change the fundamentally fucked up nature of MMO combat.  You hit the monster for X damage and if you can do Y damage before it does Z damage you win, else you lose.  How do changes to the UI change that?  Well great now I only need to push two buttons to do Y damage instead of juggling targets.  Whooopeee.

[Nonentity]

Pennilenko, in WoW, and I think in EQ2 though I could be wrong, if you have your friend/groupmate targeted and cast a damage/debuff spell, that spell automatically gets redirected to whatever they are fighting. This is in addition to being able to show "target of target" by default (in WoW anyway) as well as being able to use Fkeys to select.

VG's two-target system is cool, and easy to get used to. But other games offer variants on it. And both WoW and EQ2 are going to be way very much more friendly for a duo like you and your wife, both on time itself and how much of a sense of accomplishment you feel coming from a play session. LoTRO will as well, though the combat system there is not as responsive as you're used to.

You ain't lived until you've had to make sure you always had a mod that displayed the Target of the Target's Target for healing.

It's almost Kevin Bacon-esque.

[Miscreant]

I can speak for CoH.  You can't fire powers while moving because the power animations are full-body affairs (they have to be superheroic) and if you could move, you'd slide along looking goofy.  (Notice you *can* move when using a power while airborn from a jump or sliding on ice -- you just can't do it while running.)

It's probably the same for the other MMOs.

[UnSub]

I can speak for CoH.  You can't fire powers while moving because the power animations are full-body affairs (they have to be superheroic) and if you could move, you'd slide along looking goofy.  (Notice you *can* move when using a power while airborn from a jump or sliding on ice -- you just can't do it while running.)

It's probably the same for the other MMOs.

Some powers you can activate when moving - it will just cancel the animation. All powers that impact only yourself and AoE team fall into this category (normal activation times occur whether you move or not, but you aren't forced to stop moving when activating, say, Tactics, an AoE +acc +perception buff).

[Pennilenko]

The biggest problem with MMOG combat is that it hasn't evolved from Lum's "mobile bags of experience" rant.  Nibbling away with mechanics and UI isn't going to change that.  What MMOGs need is complexity through simple systems. 

I'm no designer but some of the most engaging games (eg Go, Chess) are based on very simple rulesets but the interaction of those rules and the intelligence of your opponent.  MMO designers can piss about with HAM, TR or Planetside targetting, level- or skill-based systems, or any other of the things MMO players list in those interminable "ideal MMO" threads and it's not going to change the fundamentally fucked up nature of MMO combat.  You hit the monster for X damage and if you can do Y damage before it does Z damage you win, else you lose.  How do changes to the UI change that?  Well great now I only need to push two buttons to do Y damage instead of juggling targets.  Whooopeee.

I get what you are saying. But since they cant seem to break out of the mold, Im all for them making it smoother for me in the process.

[Miscreant]

Some powers you can activate when moving - it will just cancel the animation. All powers that impact only yourself and AoE team fall into this category (normal activation times occur whether you move or not, but you aren't forced to stop moving when activating, say, Tactics, an AoE +acc +perception buff).

Right - part of each power animation can be overridden by movement commands.  In the case of power blast it's just the last bit where the hero recovers to standing, but for some, it's the entire animation.  (The special effect plays regardless.) 

[WindupAtheist]

My advice is shut the fuck up and play WoW.  If you're playing a fantasy Diku, play WoW.  Don't give me this crap about moving while casting or what the fuck ever, just play fucking WoW.  There is no real reason for Vanguard to exist in a world which has WoW.  I don't even like games of this type, but WoW is the best there is at what it does.

Vanguard indeed.  What is wrong with you?

EDIT:  This rant brought to you by my three months in WoW, my aborted attempt to play Horizons, and the resultant revelation that every other fantasy Diku is now just "WoW done shitty" even if it came first.

[Ironwood]

Heh.

[Morat20]

My advice is shut the fuck up and play WoW.  If you're playing a fantasy Diku, play WoW.  Don't give me this crap about moving while casting or what the fuck ever, just play fucking WoW.  There is no real reason for Vanguard to exist in a world which has WoW.  I don't even like games of this type, but WoW is the best there is at what it does.

Vanguard indeed.  What is wrong with you?

EDIT:  This rant brought to you by my three months in WoW, my aborted attempt to play Horizons, and the resultant revelation that every other fantasy Diku is now just "WoW done shitty" even if it came first.

I thought it, but felt it was crass to say. There are games that have things WoW doesn't, but if you're looking for straight-up fantasy DIKU, the only reason NOT to be playing WoW is "I'm burned out on WoW and want a change".

Other than WoW, about all that's worth playing is CoX (very grindy though -- I can't seem to last past level 20) if you're into Superheros (I found the combat there pretty slick and reactive, better than WoW's to be honest -- but gameplay got "same-old, same-old" too quick) or EvE if you're into Virtual World or Trading or Fucking People Six Ways From Sunday.

[Venkman]

EQ2's a good alternative for the WoW-burned out. A bit slower paced, but with a slightly broader array of features (storefronts, guild management tools, and random-junk-on-ground collection quests).

Eve is a completely different ball of wax. That's an alternative to DIKUs altogether :)

[Pennilenko]

My advice is shut the fuck up and play WoW.  If you're playing a fantasy Diku, play WoW.  Don't give me this crap about moving while casting or what the fuck ever, just play fucking WoW.  There is no real reason for Vanguard to exist in a world which has WoW.  I don't even like games of this type, but WoW is the best there is at what it does.

Vanguard indeed.  What is wrong with you?

EDIT:  This rant brought to you by my three months in WoW, my aborted attempt to play Horizons, and the resultant revelation that every other fantasy Diku is now just "WoW done shitty" even if it came first.

I sampled the WoW trial. I cant get into the art style. Also none of the classes i tried felt right to me at least. But hey i wont hate you for hating vanguard.

[Arrrgh]

Most of the good insta cast spells (cast on the go) in wow come at higher levels or via talents. Off the top of my head priest can fear, bubble, HoT, mend (bouncy instaheal) DOT, cast the temp pet, silence, and dispel while moving. Lock has 3 mean instacast DOTs, fear, wee nuke, and all sorts of curses to cast on the move. Newbie priests and locks can do none of that and just stand and nuke.