Tabula Rasa, now with no FUN!

[WindupAtheist]

If SOE still finds it financially viable to leave Matrix Online plugged in, then NC could have derived some benefit from the continued existence of Tabula Rasa, given the correct business model.

Edited to add:

I still wish there were an EA Station Pass that would let me keep access to UO while trying out WAR and dabbling in stuff like DAOC, Motor City Online, or Sims. (Assuming an alternate history where those last two were permitted to live on as Station Zombies.) They might have convinced me to give them more per month rather than just mothballing the UO account and taking my $15 or whatever to Blizzard.

They keep these games separate because they dream of the guy who's paying for both DAOC + WAR, or Anarchy Online + Conan, or Lineage 2 + Tabula Rasa, or whatever. But I'll bet the overwhelming majority of two-game MMO subscribers out there are just playing WoW + something else anyway.

[Trippy]

If SOE still finds it financially viable to leave Matrix Online plugged in, then NC could have derived some benefit from the continued existence of Tabula Rasa, given the correct business model.

I'm not an accountant so somebody can correct me but given the way NCsoft took a writeoff when they announced the closure of AA I'm assuming there are tax/accounting/financial advantages for taking an up front hit by closing the game sooner rather than later instead of carrying a lot of crap associated with a money losing game on your books for years and years. SOE can operate games like MxO and Vanguard because they acquired them for a relative pittance, so they don't have all the "costs" sitting in their books like NCsoft does.

Edit: of

[Venkman]

I also wonder how much of a factor SOE's infrastructure plays. Like, are the various SOE games just different clients talking to the same system whereas NC's games are all vertical end-to-end from client to server to O&M to account management and billing?

It would seem to me that if this were the case we're really talking about completely different business models and therefore different metrics of success.

[Venkman]

So the amusing part is that I guarantee you Square has no clue as to the actual implications and the nature of the quested xp system they plan to add actually entails. They are planning to dance around a very sensitive aspect about MMOGs in general. In fact possibly one of the most important differences in the genre itself. Oh I wonder how people are going to react. One simply doesn't walk into Mordor!! Sorry I get theatrical when I am being silly..

Lost me here. Is FFXI going to add post-EQ2 conventions of rewarding more for quest turn ins than mob grinds? If so, I can't see current FFXI players doing anything but liking this en masse. There'll be a few forum warriors who say otherwise. But in true forum warrior fashion, their volume will be inversely proportional to their level of acceptance and leveraging thereof ingame

[TheCastle]

So the amusing part is that I guarantee you Square has no clue as to the actual implications and the nature of the quested xp system they plan to add actually entails. They are planning to dance around a very sensitive aspect about MMOGs in general. In fact possibly one of the most important differences in the genre itself. Oh I wonder how people are going to react. One simply doesn't walk into Mordor!! Sorry I get theatrical when I am being silly..

Lost me here. Is FFXI going to add post-EQ2 conventions of rewarding more for quest turn ins than mob grinds? If so, I can't see current FFXI players doing anything but liking this en masse. There'll be a few forum warriors who say otherwise. But in true forum warrior fashion, their volume will be inversely proportional to their level of acceptance and leveraging thereof ingame

I frequent a forum filled with particularly dramatic forum warriors 
You are 100% correct.

They are adding a special kill collector quest system. It randomly picks X mob to be killed X number of times in the area. once completed a treasure chest spawns and gives items like potions or gear ect. Sound familiar?

Square claims that the system will just be something people will do sometimes when bored or every once in awhile when they don't have much time to play. These guys don't get it.

Here is what I think will happen...
My assessment is that this sort of thing will catch on because it will more closely mimic a superior leveling model more so than anything else thus far. Forced grouping will pretty much fall flat on its face for at least the first 55 levels of the game even then I am not sure.

So my money is on that as small of a change as it *sounds* its actually a fundamental change to the core mechanics to the game. Even if all we are talking about is kill collector quests. I am fairly certain that people are going to immediately adopt the new system as the main way to gain xp and forgo old familiar methods. Even if the system provides very little reward all it will do is cause people to complain the main way to gain xp is too slow rather than consider that the old methods even exist which is amusing to me.

Its analogous of those old black and white movies where some civilized people find themselves in the heart of Africa and one of them pulls out a zippo lighter wooing an entire tribe causing a panic. I find this deeply entertaining.

Sorry I know its off topic but I love making predictions about how people react to game play changes in games like this. Its especially entertaining to me when the people making the change predict exactly the opposite of what I think will happen. I suppose there is the very real chance that they will fundamentally fuck the system in some way however resulting in nobody, not even bored people, bothering with it as well. But going with my gut and knowing how SE operates the above should be true.

Whats even more entertaining is the idea that SE might panic and nerf the system rather than embrace it haha

anyway sorry don't want to derail.

[Lantyssa]

anyway sorry don't want to derail.

Don't worry about it.

1) This is f13.
2) Tabula Rasa is running on borrowed time, and we did the autopsy months and years ago.

[JoeTF]

Quick derail:
How many people with internet-connected console don't have a PC? (aka. How large that mythic console-mmo market is?)

[Venkman]

No statistics on hand, but from what I've read over the years:

• At least 98% of all US and EU housesholds with a connected console have at least one PC
• Somewhere south of that 98% for Japan
• Somewhere south of the Japan % for Korea
• Somewhere south of the Korea % for China

They are adding a special kill collector quest system. It randomly picks X mob to be killed X number of times in the area. once completed a treasure chest spawns and gives items like potions or gear ect. Sound familiar?

Thanks for the explanation. And I entirely agree that they don't get it. Once they do, expect this progression:

1) Nerfed item gains to ensure the forced-groups still have their preeminence.
2) Nerfed XP gains because nerfing the items didn't stop people from preferring this method of XP gain.
3) Adding a refresh timer so you can only do X of these quests during Y period.

Sorry I know its off topic but I love making predictions about how people react to game play changes in games like this.

You were ready for F13 then 

[Trippy]

S. Korea and China don't do consoles. Japan would eat up a Japanese-targeted console MMO but it would be kind of silly for an NA or Euro company to write a Japanese MMORPG. In NA and Europe the only reason to make an console MMORPG given the tremendous overlap with PCs was if you couldn't figure out how to design a graphics engine which scales down properly to low end PCs, which unfortunately seems to be the bulk of NA MMORPG developers these days.

[UnSub]

Quick derail:
How many people with internet-connected console don't have a PC? (aka. How large that mythic console-mmo market is?)

That's not the right question. It's "How many people with internet-connected consoles would be willing to play a MMO?". Whether they have a PC or not doesn't necessarily mean they won't play a console MMO.

If a console MMO let me just plug and play - no dealing with drivers, no sound card issues, no spec issues, etc - then it does have a step up over some aspects of PC MMOs.

[TheCastle]

Quick derail:
How many people with internet-connected console don't have a PC? (aka. How large that mythic console-mmo market is?)

That's not the right question. It's "How many people with internet-connected consoles would be willing to play a MMO?". Whether they have a PC or not doesn't necessarily mean they won't play a console MMO.

If a console MMO let me just plug and play - no dealing with drivers, no sound card issues, no spec issues, etc - then it does have a step up over some aspects of PC MMOs.

Sounds to me like the same step up all console games have over PC. -- I read the post again and realized that was rather pointless well duh statement ...

I had a really insane idea on one of Darniaq's points earlier today.

So the problem I think they face is a business one. How can they support single-title immersive MMOs while also ensuring there's a good rotation of marketable new games to throw at players?

What if the MMOG is the front end system on the console and you level up/or progress by playing/beating other games?

[Venkman]

I had a really insane idea on one of Darniaq's points earlier today.

So the problem I think they face is a business one. How can they support single-title immersive MMOs while also ensuring there's a good rotation of marketable new games to throw at players?

What if the MMOG is the front end system on the console and you level up/or progress by playing/beating other games?

Which was why I put Xbox Live Arcade in there. Your levels are your GamerScore, your XP is Achievements, and now you have avatars. It lacks the persistent virtual world public chatspace, but heck, so did Diablo 2.

[TheCastle]

I had a really insane idea on one of Darniaq's points earlier today.

So the problem I think they face is a business one. How can they support single-title immersive MMOs while also ensuring there's a good rotation of marketable new games to throw at players?

What if the MMOG is the front end system on the console and you level up/or progress by playing/beating other games?

Which was why I put Xbox Live Arcade in there. Your levels are your GamerScore, your XP is Achievements, and now you have avatars. It lacks the persistent virtual world public chatspace, but heck, so did Diablo 2.

hmm
I would think that to go with anything beyond a public chat space be too disjointed to work very well. My original thought was something inane like beat X game earns you a a sword... fraught with fundamental flaws.

Further thought into the idea shows the need to think out of the box a bit on what kind of MMOG would fly here.
Getting with a bunch of your buddies to raid a Cod4 server by visiting the local arcade inside of a virtual world would be really nothing more than an extension to what is already there. (Well with travel time added)

You know the one thing about this is that it doesn't strike me as an insane idea at all. You mentioned the gamer score, and achievements something like this almost seems more like a logical next step for consoles to take. I thought the idea was insane at first.. Actually now I am willing to bet next gen consoles are very likely to take that step..

Lets see what kinds of things could you do with this..
Spectate E-sports at the pub with your buddies
Economy?
Buy and sell things with gamerscore points??
Clothing, cars, furniture for your apartment, your apartment, your house or mansion... access to new locations to visit.
You are in a city, every game for the system has its own building. You can visit buildings of games that are not ready yet. You can explore the city and possibly happen on a game you never heard of. You walk up to the front door pay the bouncer a fee, the game streams on to the harddrive and you are able to play once you enter the building...

haha
get this if your Console front end is a MMOG and your console sells 200 million units.. and half those people use the online support... 13.95 a month with 100k subscribers ...

Which raises a question.
How many Xbox live subscribers are there right now?

[Venkman]

Last I read there were 12mil X360s out there and about 70% of them were connected.

The first question you need to ask is whether XBLA needs a graphical persistent public space front end. That audience may not go for it, and it's not like that alone would attract people to buy a few more million X360s.

So we're back to the type of MMO that would need to be made to work for that platform 

[TheCastle]

Last I read there were 12mil X360s out there and about 70% of them were connected.

The first question you need to ask is whether XBLA needs a graphical persistent public space front end. That audience may not go for it, and it's not like that alone would attract people to buy a few more million X360s.

So we're back to the type of MMO that would need to be made to work for that platform 

Well it certainly would not need one.
Even in the case that you create one you would still want to allow people to never have to actually use it. Simply give access to a standard menu that you can use at any time for things like starting your game or fast travel what ever. You never need to leave your apartment.

Exactly like what Xbox live has now currently. As far as what I am thinking here is a more complex console front end for a next generation console providing 2 ways to do the same thing. standard menu like what we see now with XBLA or the virtual world exit your apartment way.

As far as what type of game I am not sure at all. The best I could think would be a city. The sims comes to mind.. however the sims online flopped hardcore if I recall right?

[TheCastle]

Last I read there were 12mil X360s out there and about 70% of them were connected.

hmm just a brain fart correlation but last I checked WOW has 11 million subs right now right?
I wonder if 12 million subs is where they will cap given that XBLA may very wall mark the number of people world wide who are into online gaming....

How many people own a console that is hooked into the internet, that do not own a computer?

Which I believe is a valid point..
Is it really coincidence that WOW and XBLA are both in the ball park of 12 million subscribers?

[WindupAtheist]

Geographic distribution of 360 owners. Geographic distribution of WoW players. Asia. Fail.

[UnSub]

Also, there are more than 25 million Xbox 360s worldwide.

It looks like Xbox Live conversion rate is about 50% (although that is older information).

[DraconianOne]

Which I believe is a valid point..
Is it really coincidence that WOW and XBLA are both in the ball park of 12 million subscribers?

In a sample size made up of People I Know, very few of those who play WoW own an xbox (myself included) and very few of the xbox owners play WoW.

However, a lot of the WoW players I know all on dogs and 50% of them consider horse riding a serious hobby.  I'm not sure there's necessarily a correlation.

[TheCastle]

Which I believe is a valid point..
Is it really coincidence that WOW and XBLA are both in the ball park of 12 million subscribers?

In a sample size made up of People I Know, very few of those who play WoW own an xbox (myself included) and very few of the xbox owners play WoW.

However, a lot of the WoW players I know all on dogs and 50% of them consider horse riding a serious hobby.  I'm not sure there's necessarily a correlation.

lol
How many WOW players do not own a computer?

*throws a smoke bomb and vanishes instantly*

[Lantyssa]

How many WOW players do not own a computer?

*throws a smoke bomb and vanishes instantly*

In Asia, North America, or a whole?

[TheCastle]

How many WOW players do not own a computer?

*throws a smoke bomb and vanishes instantly*

In Asia, North America, or a whole?

Damn, smoke bomb asked a legitimate question...
I forgot to consider real money trade before considering my escape... Now I get to join the ranks of those wishing to correlate wiki activity and Xfire as a means to determine popularity of a mmog....

My license to post fading... Fading......

[gryeyes]

Damn, smoke bomb asked a legitimate question...
I forgot to consider real money trade before considering my escape... Now I get to join the ranks of those wishing to correlate wiki activity and Xfire as a means to determine popularity of a mmog....

My license to post fading... Fading......

Its not RMT that is the issue. Its that a majority of Chinese MMO users dont own personal computers and compose a large chunk of WoW subscriptions.

[TheCastle]

Its not RMT that is the issue. Its that a majority of Chinese MMO users dont own personal computers and compose a large chunk of WoW subscriptions.

interesting
How large of a chunk?

I remember being told many times by various sources that a very large portion of the playerbase in WoW is RMT as well. Millions of players actually.

[Venkman]

At last count roughly 50% of all WoW players were in China. No idea how many Chinese play in Internet Cafes vs those who own though.

[gryeyes]

Its not RMT that is the issue. Its that a majority of Chinese MMO users dont own personal computers and compose a large chunk of WoW subscriptions.

interesting
How large of a chunk?

I remember being told many times by various sources that a very large portion of the playerbase in WoW is RMT as well. Millions of players actually.

You really think 10-20% of all active accounts are bots in WoW or other "farmers"? I haven't played the game in a good while but i would be amazed if it was above a few % of total accounts.

I have no source to quote but i was under the impression a majority of Chinese users play from gaming cafes and not their home PC's. Hence why their subscription system is tailored for the cafes and not flat monthly fee.

[Trippy]

I have no source to quote but i was under the impression a majority of Chinese users play from gaming cafes and not their home PC's. Hence why their subscription system is tailored for the cafes and not flat monthly fee.

Actually that's not why they don't use a flat monthly fee. Not many people in China own a credit card so for cell phone service they setup a system that uses time cards where you pay X amount for Y minutes. The Chinese pay-to-play gaming companies adopted the same type of system for their games since their customers were already used to visiting kiosks to buy these cards and paying by the minute for their cell phones and Blizzard did the same.

In contrast, in S. Korea they also do most of their gaming in Internet cafes but there the pay-to-play MMORPGs typically have a flat monthly subscriptions fee just like here in NA or Europe rather than the pay-by-the-minute plans that China uses.

Edit: clarified

[gryeyes]

I have no source to quote but i was under the impression a majority of Chinese users play from gaming cafes and not their home PC's. Hence why their subscription system is tailored for the cafes and not flat monthly fee.

Actually that's not why they don't use a flat monthly fee. Not many people in China own a credit card so for cell phone service they setup a system that uses time cards where you pay X amount for Y minutes. The Chinese pay-to-play gaming companies adopted the same type of system for their games since their customers were already used to visiting kiosks to buy these cards and paying by the minute for their cell phones and Blizzard did the same.

In contrast, in S. Korea they also do most of their gaming in Internet cafes but there the pay-to-play MMORPGs typically have a flat monthly subscriptions fee just like here in NA or Europe rather than the pay-by-the-minute plans that China uses.

Edit: clarified

Thanks for the clarification. But if that is the case why are most Korean based MMO's geared around item malls and are ftp and not monthly subscriptions? Or do you mean imported MMO's use the same subscription service as they would in the states? I do know in Korea you can purchase time by the hour for WoW. Im not certain if they also have a flat monthly deal in addition to that.

[Trippy]

The major MMORPGs in S. Korea have traditionally been subscription-based including Lineage and Lineage II. There are plenty of "free-to-play" games over there as well but generally the big-budget MMORPGs stick with the subscription model. I'm not sure what you mean by "ftp" but in S. Korea nobody buys their online game software in US-style retail packaging, they download it for free. For WoW in S. Korea they offer both unlimited play time plans and by the minute plans.

Edit: BTW, I should mention that WoW in S. Korea didn't originally offer the per minutes plans but there's been a gradual shift towards offering that as well as or instead of the unlimited time plans. E.g. Aion is launching without any unlimited play time plans, apparently. However games like WoW and Lineage II still offer both options (per minute and unlimited).

[Venkman]

I believe his use of "ftp" was "f2p" was "free to play".

Good synopses.

[KallDrexx]

Stick a fork in it.

http://www.rgtr.com/news/latest_news/message_from_the_tabula_rasa_t.html

Auto Assault lasted longer than TR

Still lasted longer than Fury 

[gryeyes]

I'm not sure what you mean by "ftp" but in S. Korea nobody buys their online game software in US-style retail packaging, they download it for free.

I meant free-to-play with the revenue being generated by item malls. Ive just noticed whenever i beta or sample a released Korean or Chinese MMO developed for those markets its invariably geared towards cafes.

I am assuming that free software,subscriptions by the hour or free to play with item malls are based on a cafe setting. Does korea also have a similar lack of credit cards? I also thought cafes had strange bulk licenses deals with western games like WoW.

[Xerapis]

Koreans have NO lack of credit cards. They're as bad or worse than Americans for that.

But the average Korean is still somewhat reluctant to pay a monthly subscription. That'll probably just be one of those things they slowly get used to as the younger generation grows up and all that.

One of the reasons that the cyber cafes haven't died off yet is because Korean chicks typically LOATHE computer games. To the point that they refuse to allow their husbands to play them in the house. So the married guys run to the PC Bangs to hide out and play away from their wife. The teenage guys skip their late private tutoring in math and English and do the same thing. The cyber cafe is more of a secret lair than anything else. Also, they like to physically play together. Their guilds will have semi-regular meetings in a restaurant...get drunk and smoke like little chimneys and talk about nothing but Lineage 2 (or other game of choice) for three or four hours.

[UnSub]

One of the reasons that the cyber cafes haven't died off yet is because Korean chicks typically LOATHE computer games. To the point that they refuse to allow their husbands to play them in the house. So the married guys run to the PC Bangs to hide out and play away from their wife.

In an entirely useless piece of trivia, South Korea has among the highest rates of prostitute use* per head of population in the world, if not the highest.

* I couldn't think of any other way to phrase it.

[siv00]

Prostitute solicitation?