Tabula Rasa, now with no FUN!

[WindupAtheist]

The only way a thread stays on topic for more than three pages here is if it's about SWG, Trammel, or the EVE war.

[schild]

Waaay too much IP debating going on in this thread, and not enough NDA removal information about the original topic Tabula Rasa.

I'd say this thread was in danger of being derailed, but then again every thread here is like that, which saddens and disturbs me.

Why can't one thread be about a single game, and maybe not mention the other games that already have 150 threads of their own? I was reading this to hear about TR, not WoW or LotR, but yah know, whatever.

MORE TR INFO, AND START A NEW THREAD FOR IP DEBATING.

PS You fookers never stay on topic (F13.net the new Morlocks, now with more spam on the rails).

Why can't an MMOG thread be about one single game? Because games don't live in a vacuum, punk. There's no reason for them to be about one game. They all have the same base playstyle. They all have the same goddamn flaws. The industry itself is stuck on a fucking treadmill instead of, at the very least, walking slowly down the road of evolution.

That was, until I didn't sign an NDA and got to play Hellgate: London. Oh, sweet sweet Hellgate London. Repeat after me: Hybrid games are the fucking future.

[Big Gulp]

Seriously.  The gameplay could suck and I would probably still plunk down my small money to keep playing a Battletech MMO.

Chromehounds would have been perfect had it been massively multiplayer.  As it is, the game is damned fun if you get into a good squad.

[schild]

Seriously.  The gameplay could suck and I would probably still plunk down my small money to keep playing a Battletech MMO.

Chromehounds would have been perfect had it been massively multiplayer.  As it is, the game is damned fun if you get into a good squad.

Finding a good squad in Chromehounds is like pulling a wolverine's teeth out with chopsticks.

[Big Gulp]

Finding a good squad in Chromehounds is like pulling a wolverine's teeth out with chopsticks.

Nowadays, probably.  When it first came out, though, I didn't have too many problems.

[schild]

Finding a good squad in Chromehounds is like pulling a wolverine's teeth out with chopsticks.

Nowadays, probably.  When it first came out, though, I didn't have too many problems.

I played a few games, I agree. With a good squad it was the bee's knees. Not always though. You had to have a good squad to play against also. Shame too, I doubt we'll see a more streamlined sequel. It was a fantastic experience though.

[Baldrake]

Put me down as well in the group that couldn't get past a few hours /played.

The game strangely reminded me of CoH. Get mission. Go off and blast shit. Turn in mission. The graphics and dialogues were also similar. Having just burned out on CoH, I just couldn't get into it.

Similarly to what others have said above, I really wanted a world to play in, not a mission-fest.

[Broughden]

I am going to chalk this post up as sarcasm, and move on.

Where was I wrong? History has proven me quite right.

I agree with DDO sucking, especially due to the campaign world. But then I think everything Turbine touches turns to shite.

I also agree that Riddick would make an excellent campaign world for a space based MMO.

There's already a 40K MMO in development which should be close enough.  Unless you really want a side quest to outrun the Sun.

Yes, and I want to get sent to a slam with a doctor who will shine my eyes!

[Venkman]

There's no reason for them to be about one game. They all have the same base playstyle. They all have the same goddamn flaws. The industry itself is stuck on a fucking treadmill instead of, at the very least, walking slowly down the road of evolution.

Actually, the threads that get the most discussion are either a) immensely and unarguably popular for doing that formula right; or, b) different enough to have their own sub-culture.

TR simply isn't different enough from the type of games already done better. Everything that needed to be said about it was done before this thread was split off from the other one.

[SnakeCharmer]

TR.

Hrm. 

Re RG:  Only thing I can see his influence on is his name attached to the box hoping to bring in some sales from RG/Ultima fanbois. 

Re UI:  Clunky, even after getting used to it.  Using Q and E to cycle through specials at first glance seems like a good idea, but just seems to get in the way.  Q/E, Q/E, Q/E to get to the third special you want to fire, and whoops! missed it! Q/E, Q/E, Q/E, Q/E, Q/E back around = dumb.  Alternatively, you can use 1-5 (or 6-10), while using the same hand to move around via WASD movement while using your left hand to mouselook/aim and left button to fire.  Need three hands and two sets of eyes.  Click on the target THEN press tab to 'lock on'?  So, shoot at it, tab, keep shooting.  Needlessly redundant.  Not fun.  Seems more for a console than a PC; the xbox360 controller would probably work very well with this game (possible future port?)

Re Logos:  Just a double grind. 

Re Classes:  All feel the same.  Nothing really separates one from the other.

Re Cloning:  Good idea in a linear progression game.  The idea that I could switch roles without going to an alt or deleting my character is very appealing.  It's just too bad the classes are mostly dull and near clones of each other.

Random thoughts: 
It reminds me of a SinglePlayerRPG with other people running around in it, almost like a huge, graphically enhanced version of xbox live. 
How can you be special (logos) if everyone else has them too?  If everyone is the hero, no one is special.  The hero becomes marginalized.
All combat all the time.  Bleh.
No world feeling to it.  No cities whatsoever? 
Nice graphics.  Runs well on my machine with minimal lag.
There's nothing 'sticky' to it.  I can get the same feeling logging into Gears of War and running co-op.

[taolurker]

Why can't an MMOG thread be about one single game? Because games don't live in a vacuum, punk. There's no reason for them to be about one game. They all have the same base playstyle. They all have the same goddamn flaws. The industry itself is stuck on a fucking treadmill instead of, at the very least, walking slowly down the road of evolution.

That was, until I didn't sign an NDA and got to play Hellgate: London. Oh, sweet sweet Hellgate London. Repeat after me: Hybrid games are the fucking future.

So many things wrong with this statement, that I'll deal with them one by one.

1.  I am most certainly not a punk, and tend more towards being a hippie, but what's more absurd is I'm probably (at least) 10 years your senior.

2. Generally, any poster who uses personal attacks or name calling uses them because they don't actually have a response or they like to start trouble in the forums (true on both accts?).

3. As the person who is supposed to be running this forum, I'd expect that you would attempt to keep threads on topic, where usually the discussion itself is derailed by you (like this one).

4.  I'd also expect the person running a forum to not resort to my #2 problem.

5. Although I agree with your sentiment about the "treadmill" clones of MMO gameplay, designs and flaws, I don't agree that every thread should become a discussion of other games. Yes, comparing and contrasting differences/similarities can be useful, but that doesn't mean that every thread should become discussion of "best IP", what's hottest atm, or some other topic in disregard of the main one a thread is (supposed to be) about.

6. TR certainly had enough differences from other games that I wanted to read people's impressions, and NOT the endless IP debate or about games with already bloated threads discussing them.

7.  Based on your responses in this and the previous thread, I'd guess you never actually beta tested TR, but then again 90% of gamers don't actually play to help eliminate bugs but instead consider betas as "previews". I also notice that the only "on topic" post of yours was one that could be considered NDA violating because it was prior to the NDA lifting.

8. Hellgate:London most certainly does have an NDA, but so far the thread about that game hasn't violated anything and is still remarkably on topic (albeit discussing the freeplay/RMT aspect of the game).

As engaging/entertaining as the pointless circular debate is, I am here reading this thread for TR impressions, as are those visiting this thread because it was referenced by the front page. My posts, thus far, are equally as pointless, but at least I am still interested in discussing TR (before I plunk down a pre-order), where every other off topic poster could easily start new threads or revive old ones (about other topics).

[schild]

I called you a punk because you showed up to scold the thread. Being 10, 20, or 30 years my senior doesn't mean you get to show up and be the BMOC and decide the direction of a thread about a game that really doesn't particularly needs its own thread. Also, I wasn't calling the gameplay or anything else IN THE GAMES, a treadmill. I was talking about the game development process. The online gaming industry does a lot of running considering it's at a dead standstill.

Also, beta tests stopped being about bugs a long time ago. This is something that pisses me off, but it's the reality about it. While dev teams probably find a shitload of bugs, the Community Reps and PR types all treat beta tests as an opportunity to create buzz. Or in the case of things like TR, AA, etc. it ends up making people a lot less interested.

So, here's my advice: Don't preorder it, ignore it, and hope it goes away. TR does not deserve any love considering the final product of it's more than half-decade of development. As I said before, I don't know where the money went. Hell, if the opinions in this thread weren't clear enough, I'll break it down even further. It's another MMORPG. That's pretty much the sum of it.

[Surlyboi]

Schild likes to see himself talk and prognosticate, I've noticed. Not that there's anything wrong with that, it's his site. Let him. Do I think he's wrong? Most of the time, fuck yeah. But hey, his opinion is as valid as anyone else's here. (Slightly less valid than mine, but that's because everyone's is)

That said, anyone bitching about the interface and keymap in TR? Took me two minutes to change that out to a setup that's more comfortable and intuitive for me, if you couldn't be arsed to do that, you really need to turn in your gamer card, 'cause...yeah.

Once again, I'll reiterate, (and keep this bitch on topic) I think the game has some merits. Does it deserve game of the year? No. But it is worth giving another shot if the last time you played it was early beta. You don't like it now? Cool, but at least your complaints will be based on a more recent vintage. Does stuff need to change? Sure, the story arcs could be more prevalent, but that may or may not come with time. I've got other games to keep me occupied if I want something deeper right now.

[schild]

Hey, it's cool if you want to peak into what the Realm of Mediocrity looks like. And it's not even that it's deep or shallow. It's just Another Game. You basically just said that without saying it. What TR comes down to is that you have got to be DESPERATE for an MMOG to find something interesting there. It's so... bland.

That said, anyone bitching about the interface and keymap in TR? Took me two minutes to change that out to a setup that's more comfortable and intuitive for me, if you couldn't be arsed to do that, you really need to turn in your gamer card, 'cause...yeah.

Does not compute. I should not have to be so pissed off at the default UI by the beginning of the tutorial that I want to quit out of the game. Fucking UI is dreadful. I shouldn't be "arsed" to fuck with the default UI. It's like in EQ, the default UI is fine, but there are better alternatives - which is an OK scenario. The default UI in TR on the other hand looks like it was put together by a hyperactive 8 year old.

[Venkman]

TR splits it's players into two groups

1) You're a veteran since EQ1 where the very UI fought you while the monsters pounded your avatar
2) You're new to the genre or been away since Ultima VII and remember this "Garriot" guy so are intrigued by the first game to carry his name in a long time (though I don't think his name appeared on any of the Ultima boxes, it still was synonymous).

The UI of TR is its least important point to both groups. It's the total experience which is teh meh.

Having said that, the UI in TR is not bad. It's just not 1-0 hotkey like what a veteran would suspect (yes, I know, UIs are more than just 1-0, but that's usually the first thing people look for in screenshots). Unless Funcom changed something, neither will AoC. Neither was Eve. Neither is :NDA: nor :NDA: This genre needs a lot more invention than yet-another-RPG or yet-another-FPS, across many categories of game elements. If you're looking for the UI you're used to in DAoEQ2WoW, you're not looking for a very different MMORPG to begin with.

The online gaming industry does a lot of running considering it's at a dead standstill.

You need to qualify that with "AAA PC MMORPG industry developed by industry veterans". Everything else in "online gaming" is going all over the place, and doing quite well at reinventing stuff.

[schild]

You need to qualify that with "AAA PC MMORPG industry developed by industry veterans". Everything else in "online gaming" is going all over the place, and doing quite well at reinventing stuff.

Except for fun. :(:(:(:(:(:(

[TheDreamr]

I really wanted to like TR, but damn it they just made another game from the "for korea, kekeke" mould... 

Ran through it until level 15 then lost interest as I realised there'd be no big advances until 30, the grind to get there was going to be slow and that all I had to look forward to was literally more of the same.   Spent a lot of my time either charging into shotgun/melee range, sniping in battlefields, or getting stuck on geometry as a result of knock backs being poorly implemented.  First two were pretty fun, the last one definitely wasn't.

When combat worked well it flowed beautifully - NPCs lay down supporting fire while you do your thing against the oncoming tide of hostiles, with your XP booster gradually turning red as your killing spree progresses with corpses and loot littering the ground.  But when combat worked badly it was a game breaker - without a decent chat and grouping system the solo player was in trouble any time they came up against a pack of hostiles at a similar level to themselves.


In the right light TR can be a pretty fun and entertaining game that's suitable for casual play because it can generally be put down and picked up at short notice, however I can't see casual players subscribing for very long precisely because of the grind involved - just pulling the "grind to earn a better class" mechanic might alleviate some of that.


But that said ... features that were worthy of adoption by a better game;

Melee - being able to smack an opponent around with your weapon just feels so right for this kind of game, giving you an alternative to running away the moment your clip finishes or your gun overheats or just for an ammo free finisher.

Dropships - as a mechanic for spawning mobs these were inspired, allowing TR pull re-inforcements out of thin air without breaking the 4th wall, and providing a justification for the amount of hostiles seen behind "our" lines and allowing the game to throw you a life-line if you became.

My biggest bitch about dropships is that you couldn't use them to reach specific destinations, similar to the drop pods from PS - despite watching drop-ships from both sides drop NPCs almost anywhere, they didn't seem to transport players.  There was also the feeling they could have been stolen a page from PS and allowed dropships to be shot down by fixed defences, thus adding extra tactical elements to be fought over and captured.

Battlefields - with the regular drops of hostile and allied NPCs the static battlefields ensured a constant flow of battle, locations actually felt like war zones where neither side could achieve the upper hand.  With some improved NPC AI and better thought out mechanics TR's battlefield locations could have been something to laud over other games.

[Trippy]

Dropships - as a mechanic for spawning mobs these were inspired, allowing TR pull re-inforcements out of thin air without breaking the 4th wall, and providing a justification for the amount of hostiles seen behind "our" lines and allowing the game to throw you a life-line if you became.

No Dropships were about the worst possible way they could've done it. This is a war with all sorts high technology and alien technology but apparently:

1) Anti-aircraft technology has all but been forgotten

2) Cannons won't fire on them

3) You can't damage the dropships yourself

4) The dropships inexplicable can't drop troops inside of outposts even though there's no "roof shield" protecting the outposts (I won't even get into the stupidity of walls being insurmountable barriers in the game)

all of which are immersion breakers. If they would've just had them teleport into place only #4 would've been an issue.

[Venkman]

I liked the concept of the drop ships, but agree they were more immersion-breaking than supporting, like so much of the experience. We've got gravity guns and logos and we're stilling using mechanical elements? Warpgates and use drop ships? And again, where's, like, the society? Someone asked for screenshots of settlements, and I'll post some this week (I have scores), but they're all military installations, ground-based, largely unshielded. It's like Star Trek in its inconsistent use of technology (you can create artificial singularities, bend time, and cross various instances of the multiverse, and yet can't transport a bomb onto an unshielded {to transporters} Borg ship until two complete series later?! Throw the thing down a blackhole for crissakes...).

I actually wonder if the original direction would have turned out better. At least they wouldn't have to try and explain so many of the decisions they made if it was more interestingly iterative than trying-but-failing-to-be innovative.

Except for fun

You're not the world :)

[AcidCat]

So, here's my advice: Don't preorder it, ignore it, and hope it goes away. TR does not deserve any love considering the final product of it's more than half-decade of development. As I said before, I don't know where the money went. Hell, if the opinions in this thread weren't clear enough, I'll break it down even further. It's another MMORPG. That's pretty much the sum of it.

For better or worse this is the general opinion I'm seeing on the variety of discussion sites I visit. I have zero experience with the game but considering how much my time is limited these days, there are games I definitely have to let go by the wayside without even trying them personally and this joins that list that includes games such as SWG and Vanguard.

[Mi_Tes]

I liked the first version of TR much better than this sci fi one!  After this tanks, maybe they can add on another part of the world (or a hidden planet) which could be the old fun/non fps one.

[Hokers]

stuck on geometry as a result of knock backs being poorly implemented.

Didn't Everquest eventually add a unstuck command?  That should be mandatory for all MMOs.  Why frustrate players over something so simple.

[Kitsune]

Seriously.  The gameplay could suck and I would probably still plunk down my small money to keep playing a Battletech MMO.

Personal preference: 3025.

3025 is the only way they could make Battletech not be a giant pile of ass.  3050 basically handed the battlefields to the Clans with their vastly-superior-with-no-drawbacks tech, and after 3050 the storyline just became retarded thanks to the Wizkids miniature Mechwarrior game, which thought it would be just uber to come out with 130-ton mechs.  Apparently Wizkids is run by 12-year-olds, because I had the same idea at that age and thought it was the best idea EVER.

If they made a Battletech MMOFPS, they'd have to have free play for non-mechwarriors, or else you wouldn't see a single damn vehicle or infantryman on the battlefield.

[Falwell]

The very beginning of my online gaming days started with an online MUSE, 3028. Still one of my fondest online gaming experiences to date.

[Xerapis]

[3025 is the only way they could make Battletech not be a giant pile of ass.  3050 basically handed the battlefields to the Clans with their vastly-superior-with-no-drawbacks tech, and after 3050 the storyline just became retarded thanks to the Wizkids miniature Mechwarrior game, which thought it would be just uber to come out with 130-ton mechs.  Apparently Wizkids is run by 12-year-olds, because I had the same idea at that age and thought it was the best idea EVER.

If they made a Battletech MMOFPS, they'd have to have free play for non-mechwarriors, or else you wouldn't see a single damn vehicle or infantryman on the battlefield.

Well, yeah.  How many times did we use vehicles or infantry on a mech-battlefield?  Almost never, and never by choice.  I'm assuming the online version would be the same.  But then again, an online version would probably makes vehicles a tad more crit-hit-resistant.  The mechs are the queens of the battle.  Why would you want to play anything else? :D

Of course, if they added aerotech and had you actually trying to down the dropships before mechs can even deploy...that would be pure awesome.

In my perfect world, they develop BattleTech first, and then expand into MechWarrior.

Edit:  AeroTech could be added after that, of course.  Frankly, I'd want them to freeze the timeline.  No advancing to clans.  And damn, but I want to jump into the MechWarrior part as a member of the Explorer Corps.  ~sigh~

New tech and mech can always be introduced as rediscovered lostech.  Damn, I'm getting horny just thinking about it.

[Fordel]

All the Non-Mech units would just be NPC's I think. Being a Mech Pilot makes the player the "hero" in terms of the story while not having them be 'the heroes' from the novels and lore. It's pretty damn easy to make people feel badass when you put them into 70 tons of giant robot.


The issue with a Btech/Mechwarrior MMO would be scale. Do you keep it to one planet? One system? Or do we go for the whole Inner Sphere? There is potentially so much to work with, but it would be *so* easy to get overwhelmed and even easier to pump out boring, crappy, featureless worlds. Then of course you would have to devise a proper PvP system for it all.

[WindupAtheist]

I'd drive a tank if every iteration of BattleTech didn't nerf them horribly to keep them from raping the stupid-ass mechs.

[Xerapis]

Well, they could go a couple ways about it, as far as the map is concerned.

Start us out on the Periphery.  Keeps things open.  Downside: lore disconnect.  Upside: much less of a headache for the design team.

Best Idea as far as I'm concerned: Start with the whole map.  But only make the MAIN planets reachable at first.  Don't bother giving a reason.  Just make them the only ones there and selectable for travel.  That way you can still visit some of the big names (House capitals, Solaris VII, etc) but don't fall into a SWG trap.  Plenty of room for expansion still.

And I think in the online version it would be much easier to beef up the tanks and still keep the game fun.  They can't be the equal of mechs, sorry.  But a heavy tank should be able to blast a light mech.  Just a matter of scaling it, that's all.  One-on-one, same size, mech should usually win unless the pilot is inexperienced.  So vehicles should swarm or pick on the smaller guys, just like in the PNP game.

P.S.  I did attempt to try TR.  Not recently, though.  It kept crashing after chargen.

[Jazzrat]

How long before these superstar game developer fad dies out? 

The only 2 superstar that still possess a shrine in my heart is Sid Meier and Will Wright

[Grublet]

The game strangely reminded me of CoH. Get mission. Go off and blast shit. Turn in mission. The graphics and dialogues were also similar. Having just burned out on CoH, I just couldn't get into it.

I felt the same thing. I'm wondering if they used CoX tech in the game. The waypoints let you jump between instances of the zone you are in much like the trains in CoX do. Or at least from what I remember them doing. CoX bored me. Tabula Rasa isn't terrible and they have over a month of bugfixing to go. Perhaps I watched Starship Troopers one too many times.

[Surlyboi]

Does not compute. I should not have to be so pissed off at the default UI by the beginning of the tutorial that I want to quit out of the game. Fucking UI is dreadful. I shouldn't be "arsed" to fuck with the default UI. It's like in EQ, the default UI is fine, but there are better alternatives - which is an OK scenario. The default UI in TR on the other hand looks like it was put together by a hyperactive 8 year old.

Ok Schild. Put the goddamn XBox 360 controller down. It's fucking up your perception. MMO default UIs have always sucked. Always will.

Then again, maybe I'm just so used to changing every default UI to my favorite setup that I don't even give it a second thought.

As for the blandness of the game? Maybe it is. I'm certainly not desperate for an MMO, I've got more than a handful of subsidized choices. That said though, there is something immensely satisfying about bitchslapping a giant alien with a pistol.

[Evildrider]

I like pie... I'm just saying..   :-D

[Lt.Dan]

I watched a few of the gameplay videos and was kinda interested but have to say I'm not anymore.

One thing that I am curious about is: what's the purpose of levelling, capturing bases, running instances?  What's the carrot?

All these things sound cool but I haven't heard anything about why you'd want to do it.  In DAoC you'd capture keeps to bring another realm out to fight for some some RvR or set up for a relic capture.  In other games you level to get to the "end game" or run instances for precious shiney loot.  What I've seen of TR makes it seem like a single player game - you level to finish, you capture bases to get the next quest, you run dungeons to level or quest. 

[Trippy]

I watched a few of the gameplay videos and was kinda interested but have to say I'm not anymore.

One thing that I am curious about is: what's the purpose of levelling, capturing bases, running instances?  What's the carrot?

There's no end game if that's what you are asking. There's also no "grand strategy" game where your actions on field make a difference in terms of the "war". Sure you can help (re)capture bases but the NPCs will do that on their own without your help and none of the bases that can be captured that I've seen so far have any significant value other than cutting down on travel time a bit. So basically you have to like the combat for combat's sake, which is different than your typical MMORPG, so there will be people playing it just for that.

[tkinnun0]

How are the quests? Do they form a coherent story?