Blizzard giving PvE to PvP transfers to friends

[Paelos]

Keep the crazy train rolling guys. This is like immigration but dumber.

[Musashi]

Regardless of how you feel about battlegrounds or arenas, nobody can really argue that WoW got outdoor PvP totally wrong.  At almost every development turn they've grossly botched their iterations of meaningful outdoor PvP.  It seems to me that they just figured from the outset that if they allowed people to fight by governing zones with rulesets (contested zones) that the players would naturally just LOL kill each other.  For the most part they did, but when that got old what then?  Aside from some pretty awesome, but server melting battles outside Blackrock Mountain between guilds zerging their way into the two raid zones there, or the "Oh shit we don't have 40 on, let's go zerg IF/ORG," outdoor PvP in WoW was just a ghost town on PvP servers that you never saw that much of at all after you reached level cap. 

Sure you're going to get ganked a couple times in STV leveling up.  Sure there have been attempts since the Silithus patch to try to make it more interesting.  But none seem to make it worth your time to even inhabit, much less actually kill people in PvP zones for anything other than yuks.  If they would have backed up zones like Silithus and Halaa with meaningful rewards, then I'm sure they'd be more frequented, and hence more fun.  Halaa seemed to me that it was an awesome step in the right direction.  Birds - check.  Bombin' dudes - check.  Rewards - Wait I gotta do this for how long to get what?  Oh nobody's here cause this blows, so it's even going to take even longer to loot enough bodies for that NON flying mount?  That sucks. 

It just doesn't seem to me like they've ever really been able to wrap their heads around the fact that their outdoor PvP is lackluster.  It's like they're in denial.  It sounds good in patch notes, but in practice it just doesn't have meaning.  Like it's on the list of things to do, and stuff, but they always seem to just go ahead and patch before they're done with it.  And that's okay I guess.  WoW can't be all things to all people.

So without meaningful outdoor PvP in the game, how can we really justify this server ruleset no transfer policy?  PvP R HARDCOREZ?  Nah.  I had over 200 days logged on a PvP server, and I think they should just let people play where they want.  People opposed, it seems to me are just nerd birds puffing out their chests. 

[Sogrinaugh]

Keep the crazy train rolling guys. This is like immigration but dumber.

Fuck illegals, fuck big business for importing them, and fuck you.

The toned down reply is basically that this is a game.  It sounds like you're taking this very seriously, like clicking on a PvP or PvE toggle actually MEANS something about you, as a player.  People theoretically click on the game play style they find the most fun when they start up.  If they find they made a mistake, PvP players can switch, but PvE players cannot, and I don't see why.  I don't see why the devs should restrict what some players can do but not what other players can do, unless they can give a good reason, and I haven't heard a good reason.  If you have one, I'd love to hear it, but the only thing you've said has been that PvP servers have better players, which is the reason why PvE players want to transfer there in the first place, not a reason to prevent them from doing so.

The reason why the dev's should (and do) restrict what some players can do and some cannot:
You cannot enter Karazhan (sp?) unless you have gotten keyed.  Ditto Hyjal/BT.  They restrict you from doing Y because you have not done X.
You cannot play on a pvp server unless you have leveled your character on a pvp server.  You must do Y before you can get X.

Leveling in an easier enviroment, and later transfering into one in which it was harder erodes some of the basic reasons people leveled in the harder enviroment.  I will do anything to have even a slightly higher % chance of not having TerriBad2000 in my group.  Im sure their are plenty of others who feel exactly the same.  Which is not to say that their aren't plenty of suckass players on pvp servers, im simply saying that for every 100 apes that click on the pvp server, 105 click on the pve (statics fabricated simply for illustration, i dont want to lend credeance to the random fuckboys in the tread trying to put words in my mouth).

As for the opposite (pvp being able to transfer to pve), i wouldn't give a rats ass if they disabled that.  I have never nor do i personally know even 1 person that plays this game who has xfered from pvp to pve.  Im sure they exist but i haven't met them.  My guess as for why they allow that is as i said before, blizzard looks at it as tiered, with pvp being higher.  So you may downgrade yourself if you wish, but if you want to upgrade you gotta work for it.

@ WUA:  Yes WoW pvp may be shit compared to other games, but this isnt other games.  You have a few server types to pick from, what minimal filters exist to seperate mind-meltingly bad players from functional ones (such as letting people select "easy" or "slightly less easy" for leveling when they start the game), i wish to remain in place.  Yes these filters have holes the sides of asteriods but if they deflect even a few per 100 im happy.

EDIT:Musashi, the problem you are having is being ends-focused.  World pvp in WoW unfortunately isnt about the ends.  They want you to go into neat little instanced containers for your rewards.  On the server i currently reside (azgalor), Halaa has pretty frequent activity, most any time im farming in nagrand i see ppl lfm halaa raid or LF halaa raid, and control seems to go back in forth all the time.  I have also heard Mal'Ganis has very active world pvp.  Most all servers have shit happening at elemental plateau.  You can find it if you want it.  Honestly fuck the loot anyway.  Do what you feel like doing when you feel like doing it and when you get shinies on the way thats great.  Blizzard will turn your purples into poo within a year anyway.

Only thing im really willing to grind for is an epic flyer, because it has a drastic impact on doing stuff in the game world, which is what i enjoy most.

[Paelos]

I think the impact that you believe this would have is mostly in your head. There are idiots everywhere, and you're afraid that some small percentage of awesome that the pvp servers hold over pve is gonna be driven into the ground by letting people pay money to transfer over there? How often do you run into someone hellbent on annoying the shit out of you in-game? I know people want to believe that everyone is trying to act like a jackass and they are out to get you if they aren't in your direct circle, but it's simple not the case. The most annoying things I've seen on PvE servers are people just sitting in front of the banks on the coolest mount they can find, or they camp mobs you want to kill or gather. Other than that, unless you have general open you never really open yourself up to much stupidity.

Oh and as far as meaningful world pvp, put a one and only Auction House in the whole of Outland in Halaa. Then, put the only "always open" portals in the Zangermarsh PvP section instead of Shatt. That'll spice things up if you make the needed perks a pvp option.

[Ironwood]

Heh, that's insane.  Even for PvE servers that's insane.

[WindupAtheist]

Hey, I liked the world PVP in WoW.  Then again, I'm not very demanding.  All I wanted was a little fragging to spice up my diku, and that's what it gave me.  I still don't see it as being some big barrier to leveling compared to a PVE server, nor did I find the people on the PVP server to be any less stupid than anyone else.  Half the people I took on fought like they were manipulating the keyboard with their feet.

[Paelos]

Heh, that's insane.  Even for PvE servers that's insane.

Insane? Very! However, at some point you have to decide that if you want PvP to mean something to the world you have to make it impact things that people actually use everyday. Hell, the Auction House idea is more of a carrot than anything since one doesn't exist in the world to date.

[El Gallo]

Regardless of how you feel about battlegrounds or arenas, nobody can really argue that WoW got outdoor PvP totally wrong.  At almost every development turn they've grossly botched their iterations of meaningful outdoor PvP. 

If you want to have a top-selling game in the West, you cannot have "meaningful outdoor PvP."  We learned this from UO, Darktide, the Zeks, Shadowbane, etc.  People do not want to suffer anything resembling a meaningful penalty (or to be denied anything resembling a meaningful bonus) for getting wtfpwned while camping foozles.  They want ding-grats-loot or maybe ding-grats-loot with some meaningless fragging tossed in now and again to spice things up.  That's what WoW PvP servers give them.  When they want to actually PvP, they want to do so in a roughly fair setting with more-or-less formal rules, which is what WoW's arenas and battlegrounds give them.

Meaningful world PvP is for niche games only.  They can be fun, they can be successful, but they cannot be WoW.

[Musashi]

Meaningful world PvP is for niche games only.  They can be fun, they can be successful, but they cannot be WoW.

Kinda beside the point, but isn't that what they said about MMO's as a genre 'till someone did it right?  I mean, it's just the D&D nerd demographic, right?

I don't know if meaningful outdoor PvP has to involve meaningful (as in super-harsh) penalties.  Unless you count getting your ass ganked a penalty, but doesn't that kind of come with the PvP territory?  You don't stop playing an FPS because someone bounced a grenade off a wall on your head.  Not me of course...  I never die.  But it does have to be meaningful in the way of being intuitive and rewarding.  I don't know man.  Give the guys at Blizzard a little bit different direction and background back when they were at the drawing board, and we may be having a completely different conversation.  Just that nobody's really pushed the genre since those games you mentioned.  Nobody with Blizzard's IP anyway.  Could you imagine a well done Starcraft RvR game?  I'd play.  You would too.  In no way would that game be niche, even if it didn't do as well as they hoped.  It would still be a money tree.

The point is that's definitely not what PvP server means in WoW, so there's really no reason to block transfers.

[ajax34i]

You're playing with the definition of the word "meaningful", which is like cheating; the very features that make the PvP "meaningful" as defined by those who WANT those features and use the word also make the game niche / unpopular with the masses.

[Modern Angel]

This is like every hardcore RAID 4EVA guy except with imagined interwebs social strata. Fabulous levels of fail here

[Musashi]

You're playing with the definition of the word "meaningful", which is like cheating; the very features that make the PvP "meaningful" as defined by those who WANT those features and use the word also make the game niche / unpopular with the masses.

I think you're replying to me?  Hmm.  Still beside the point, but who knows what meaningful features those are, or how big a market they have 'till we see them?  Sure you can say that you generally want outdoor PvP, and that it has to be more fun than it is in WoW.  But I'm not claiming to have the answer in anything other than REALLY general terms as far as developing that game.  What I am claiming is that whatever the right blend of those features is, it isn't in WoW.  In the absence of that, it's pretty pointless to pin people down to their initial server choice when everyone else can go where they please.

Whether or not some other game like that is 'niche' could boil down to a lot of things that aren't related to actual game development too, like marketing, payment plan, etc.  So it's pretty hard to just sit here and say, yea it will work, or no it won't.  That's all basically irrelevant to this thread, but when people start throwing around the words 'niche' and 'market...'  How do you know?  Didn't Kodak sell the idea for the PC because they thought the market would only be for old ladies to store recipes?  Niche market indeed.  They have a way of being a Pokemon fad away from run-away popularity.  If there's one thing WoW does prove, it's that if you do shit people like, and do it well, then your 'niche' market has a way of growing.

 

[Jayce]

  I don't see why the devs should restrict what some players can do but not what other players can do, unless they can give a good reason, and I haven't heard a good reason.  If you have one, I'd love to hear it,

Here is what I think the reason must be.  They are probably concerned that it will become very popular to level in peace on a PvE server, then switch over and gank face on a PvP server.  This could lead to a problem where the lower level game on a PvP server is all but nonexistent, as anyone with $20* to spare would never level up on a PvP server.

Conversely, the high level game on PvE servers could languish, since there's no reason to keep your 70 on a server where all you can do is PvE, when you can switch over and gank lowbies in addition to high-end PvE.

Worst case scenario: the defacto game becomes to level on PvE and switch to PvP, entailing a "hidden cost" of $20, then people would start saying that was Bilzzard's plan all along, to milk us of an additional $20 per character.  Conspiracy! (never mind that we asked for it)

That's just my guess.  It's sociology, people!


*or whatever a transfer costs

[Sogrinaugh]

This is like every hardcore RAID 4EVA guy except with imagined interwebs social strata. Fabulous levels of fail here

A strata that is so imaginary that you would pay to integrate with it, because the one in which you are stuck (according to your own words in previous posts), sucks.

[Modern Angel]

No, sparky. It's not imagined social strata. The game is taking place on a different server set. You're ablooblooblooing because you don't want filthy carebears mixing with the pvp caste. My argument is that the game is broken because they've focused so much effort on raiding and the raiding is taking place elsewhere. And you know who's NOT wanting the status quo on this? The top flight raiding guilds.

[Ironwood]

I know this thread is in English, but I stopped understanding it ages ago.

 

[Fordel]

Meaningful world PvP is for niche games only.  They can be fun, they can be successful, but they cannot be WoW.

Was DAOC really a niche game, or is that not world PvP as being discussed? That is basically what I want from WoW 'world' PvP, a DAOC type frontier environment. AV without the instancing and with more depth and persistence. (which is supposedly coming with WotLK... but it may yet be a entire zone dedicated to the awesomeness of lolsand and contested towers.)


I'm not "hardcore" enough to play on a fully open PvP server without being annoyed, but I don't like the stupid of the PvP flag system on PvE servers either. AV comes close to what I really want from my PvP, but the way the instance gets gamed and the total lack of persistence and flow really diminish the appeal.

I want to die in a RvR zone, etc   

[Merusk]

Meaningful world PvP is for niche games only.  They can be fun, they can be successful, but they cannot be WoW.

Was DAOC really a niche game, or is that not world PvP as being discussed?

Depends on the scale we're talking, I suppose.  In the grand scheme of games MMOs were a niche at the time of DAoC, but the game itself was popular for a time.   Of course, on the grand scale of 'all games' pvp is much more popular, just completely meaningless outside of ladders and 'sport' PVP that is so hated by the hardcore "I wanna gankster or it's meaningless" here.

[Simond]

Fun opinion time: DAoC was only 'successful'* because Verant couldn't be bothered to support PvP in EQ due to Brad McQuaid's idiocy. Of course, Brad McQuaid's idiocy about PvP in EQ was a direct reaction to Raph Koster's idiocy about PvP in UO.

*Read: 2/3rds the subscribers of EQ at peak, and lost them at a faster rate. IOW, Mythic were worse at MMOG development than Verant.

[Nonentity]

Supposedly the zone in WotLK for open-world PvP combat with a destructible environment is about the size of Westfall.

I would love to see a Westfall/Deadmines-themed battleground.

[ajax34i]

Tying in with Deadmines and thinking of Freespace 2, I'd love to see world PVP in an area that is being subjected to naval bombardment (medieval ships with cannons or ballistae or magic) while the players fight through it.

[Triforcer]

I love WoW's outdoor PvP system.  Its perfect for what I want- I am doing quests most of the time, and when I get bored with that I start doing random solo pvp.  I understand how its bad for people who want MASS outdoor pvp, but I have tons of fun doing stuff like this (as a balance druid):

1)  One man stalking of 3,4, or 5 equal level players.  The trick is  you wait until the end of a big pull, and then finish the weakest, sprint, and stealth.  They chase you, you escape, you circle back and do it again.  If you do it enough, you can make even a big group REALLY paranoid (and can go for a total wipe if they are doing something like fighting a quest elite, such as the giant near the giant diamond hill in the barrens-esque outdoor zone).  Invisible emoting ALONE can wipe a group- I did it next to a healer once after wiping their group and he ran and his group died. 

2)  Get out the Mind control cap when a 70 is protecting a lower level as the newbie quests.  Get the 70 mesmerized, and together you beat on his partner. 

3)  Kill someone, and then watch as they repeatedly fake-attack mobs (start a spell, then stop and spin around).  When they finally do get a monster, kill them.  Then, come back and wait.  They will spend 10 or 15 minutes in hopeless paranoia, and maybe even fly to a remote spot and put their back to the wall.  Wait 30 or 45 minutes until they FINALLY let their guard down (not the first time they let their guard down, but the second) and kill them again.  Most don't expect a pvper to be that patient, and it really steams them.  Once I did this enough to a guy that when he flew to a new spot and I followed, he stayed in the air.  I flew next to him and we stared at each other for 45 minutes. 

4) Roll a low-level engineer with the Rocket Helmet and have fun at the STV arena.  I've gotten the grand prize (from at least 12 tokens) on three different level 38ish characters by waiting out an epic level 70 arena battle, then bonking the last combatant with the Rocket Helmet.  Its even better if they are on your side because they swear at you. 

So, for a guy who hates arenas and BGs, WoW pvp is fine in my book. 

[tazelbain]

So, you like griefing people, what's the point?

[Musashi]

Stuff

Yea, there are awesome mechanics for solo PvP in the game.  That's why I think it's so sad.  Point is, whether you like MASS PvP, or solo PvP, not too many people are doing it outdoors, as there's no incentive.  Sure I'd love massive battles and shit.  But wouldn't your solo stalking be more exciting if there were people out there stalking you?  Wouldn't it also be more fun for you if there were LOTS of people running around fighting?  I mean, I love LOLpwning some random grinding noob too, but it gets old.  To me, it would be more exciting if that guy were out there fighting other people with no excuses.  It would be more fun for me to kill him if it meant something for my guild/affiliation/what-have-you.  It would be more fun if I killed him enough times, then it MEANT some kind of advantage to me and my friends.

There was a Horde guild who wanted to open the AQ gates on my server.  We wanted to do it.  So, we crushed them.  We literally camped them out of Silithus, to the point where they came on our vent and begged us to let their tank (who we had a circle of people around for hours) out of the zone so they could go raid.  That was awesome.  Way better than ganking noobs.  We were only there because we had a REASON to be.  We never went back after we were done.  Needs to be more of that in order for something to qualify as a "PvP" server.  You can't really justify calling it that if nobody actually PvP's outside instances other than the random gank.

[Chenghiz]

We've had this discussion before, except about 'fixing' battlegrounds. What it comes down to is that in WoW people only care enough to fight when there's something other than fun in it for them. This is why AV is a big dumb PvE rush and the other battleground aren't played nearly as much - the time vs reward sucks. World PvP doesn't occur because people don't enjoy being rolled by the opponent's inevitable zerg, and because a fight is much more quickly found in a battleground. There ARE rewards for world PvP in 3 different areas in Outland and even there the PvP is only sporadic. So what more do you want?

[edit] Also how do you know mass PvP is fun if you've never done it?

[pxib]

Triforcer and Musashi have just demonstrated why FFA PvP will never be any more than a niche market.

EDIT: I'll specify. Your fun is spoiling the fun of someone else. That doesn't scale well and doesn't lead to customer retention.

[Calantus]

Triforcer and Musashi have just demonstrated why FFA PvP will never be any more than a niche market.

EDIT: I'll specify. Your fun is spoiling the fun of someone else. That doesn't scale well and doesn't lead to customer retention.

My thoughts exactly. Especially with regards to that group part. If you're gaining fun by pissing off a group of people that is bad from the developer's perspective.

[Trouble]

PvP arguments aside, the restriction is dumb and all it really serves to do is hurt raiding guilds by restricting the recruitment pool. Recruitment is the lifeblood of guilds, the currency of raiding. This artificial restriction hurts guilds and players on both sides of the fence and there really is no upside to it. Not only that but it goes against Blizzard's policy of not tying people to restrictions at creation. They've said they understand that people get frustrated by things like the abilities in Diablo being unchangeable hence things like Talents being infinitely changeable. Someone rolling on a PvE server is stuck there and that's something they probably won't realize when they first start playing.

Personally, I'm just thankful that I'm a leader in one of the top end PvE (as in server type) guilds. If I was in a middle of the road guild stuck on a PvE server I'd be pretty damn frustrated that roughly 75% of the top end guilds out there are unavailable for me to join. Yes, PvP servers are more popular for top end raiding by a large margin. I have no idea why this is as it is opposite what you would expect. Regardless, that's how it rolls out.

Just some stats (according to Bosskillers):
9 of the top 10 raiding guilds worldwide are on PvP servers
40 of the top 50 raiding guilds worldwide are on PvP servers
79 of the top 100 raiding guilds worldwide are on Pvp servers

It's pretty lopsided. Kind of ironic given the faction imbalance, but Horde vs. Alliance is actually much more balanced that PvP vs. PvE. 48 of the top 100 raiding guilds worldwide are horde.

Another sizable imbalance is US vs. EU.
7 of the top 10 guilds worldwide are EU
59 of the top 100 guilds worldwide are EU

[Musashi]

Triforcer and Musashi have just demonstrated why FFA PvP will never be any more than a niche market.

EDIT: I'll specify. Your fun is spoiling the fun of someone else. That doesn't scale well and doesn't lead to customer retention.

Maybe it is a niche market at the moment.  But I think that given time to develop the right combination of tech/features for the right game, the number of people who think that sort of risk actually heightens their game play might surprise you.  Maybe they don't know it yet.  All it would take is one opportunity to be on the winning side just once.

Also, I didn't say my fun was spoiling someone else's fun.  I said my fun was competing with someone who would have done the exact thing as me if I wasn't more proactive about it.  It forced me to be a better planner, and because of that I won.  But he knew the repercussions, and he wasn't mad.  If either one of us didn't want to participate we always had the option of bowing down, and letting the other one proceed.  But of course we weren't gonna do that.  We picked a PvP server after all.  To be fair to him, he had his fair share of victories against us too.  That's the way it goes.  Sure it's harsh.  That's one of the selling points, no?  I don't buy for one second that this has any ramifications on retention in any way.  If anything it makes people try harder.  It did me.

[Merusk]

Triforcer and Musashi have just demonstrated why FFA PvP will never be any more than a niche market.

EDIT: I'll specify. Your fun is spoiling the fun of someone else. That doesn't scale well and doesn't lead to customer retention.

Maybe it is a niche market at the moment.  But I think that given time to develop the right combination of tech/features for the right game, the number of people who think that sort of risk actually heightens their game play might surprise you.  Maybe they don't know it yet.  All it would take is one opportunity to be on the winning side just once.

You're new to this aren't you.  We've had this discussion for the last 10 years.. it hasn't changed. Please lets not have it again, and someone post a link to the last one.

[pxib]

Here's one I like from 2004.

That, to me, sounds like someone who likes to kill helpless miners. It might be fun for the aggressor, but that gameplay style is dead forever.

Miners are helpless because the choose to be so ...

Miners are helpless because they choose to mine. 

I've got an idea.  You be a PKer.  I'll be a miner.  But if I find you, I can initiate an immediate "dig-off."  Loser dies.   You might not like it, but thats because you're not a h4rdc0re m1n3r like myself.

[Ironwood]

For some reason I missed that quote originally.  Fucking hilarious.

 :-D

[Ironwood]

Stuff

Yea, there are awesome mechanics for solo PvP in the game.  That's why I think it's so sad.  Point is, whether you like MASS PvP, or solo PvP, not too many people are doing it outdoors, as there's no incentive.  Sure I'd love massive battles and shit.  But wouldn't your solo stalking be more exciting if there were people out there stalking you?  Wouldn't it also be more fun for you if there were LOTS of people running around fighting?  I mean, I love LOLpwning some random grinding noob too, but it gets old.  To me, it would be more exciting if that guy were out there fighting other people with no excuses.  It would be more fun for me to kill him if it meant something for my guild/affiliation/what-have-you.  It would be more fun if I killed him enough times, then it MEANT some kind of advantage to me and my friends.

There was a Horde guild who wanted to open the AQ gates on my server.  We wanted to do it.  So, we crushed them.  We literally camped them out of Silithus, to the point where they came on our vent and begged us to let their tank (who we had a circle of people around for hours) out of the zone so they could go raid.  That was awesome.  Way better than ganking noobs.  We were only there because we had a REASON to be.  We never went back after we were done.  Needs to be more of that in order for something to qualify as a "PvP" server.  You can't really justify calling it that if nobody actually PvP's outside instances other than the random gank.

Wow, yeah awesome.  Truly wondrous.  You're another sociopathic Cunt.  We've never seen them in online games before.

[bhodi]

I'm somewhere in that past discussion, but I just wanted to bring up something that UO had that made the outdoor ganking extremely bearable and even as Musashi says, fun because of the danger element...

If you could live for two seconds, you had a completely un-interruptible spell that you could cast from a scroll (no magery required) to get you out of there. All it took was two seconds to cast recall and, if you were paying attention, the only thing you lost was your walk from your nearest rune and a minor expense for the scroll material. You could even bind a "Ha, Ha, can't catch me, fuckers!" to your Fkey while you cast it, if I remember correctly.

I don't have a problem with the cat-and-mouse as long as the mouse has a chance to get to the mousehole.

Now, the rest the stuff, talking about curbstomping some random guild until they begged you to stop because they got in the way of your internet dick lengthening contest... you lost me.

[Der Helm]

Here's one I like from 2004.

That, to me, sounds like someone who likes to kill helpless miners. It might be fun for the aggressor, but that gameplay style is dead forever.

Miners are helpless because they choose to be so ...

Miners are helpless because they choose to mine. 

I've got an idea.  You be a PKer.  I'll be a miner.  But if I find you, I can initiate an immediate "dig-off."  Loser dies.   You might not like it, but thats because you're not a h4rdc0re m1n3r like myself.

Holy shit!