BioShock [NO SPOILERS]

[Sairon]

Played the demo and I'm very very unimpressed. I'm really hoping the demo is just very shitty and doesn't do the full game justice. The graphics are technicaly not that impressive, artisticly it's like Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow but under water. The basic plot is pretty intresting but isn't developed enough in the demo to really mean anything. So, really, what's the selling points of this game? I haven't played SS1 or SS2.

[Engels]

This game is not a Robot Jesus. Its a polished FPS, for certain, with a lot of imagination put into the art work, the world building, and some game play functionality. That said, the mechanics are standard, and to be honest, I prefer HL2's engine, as far as performance and physics. I'm still enjoying it, but so far, there's nothing in it that I haven't seen before.

I played Deus Ex (the original) 5 or 6 years after it was released, and I thought it was still a fantastic game. This feels similar.

[Ironwood]

The death system makes this game trivial.

:(

I find the same of quick save / quick load systems.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate having them.

If you don't think there's a difference between the two, I'm happy to debate it tomorrow when I'm less tired.  Suffice to say, I'd have been a much happier bunny if it HAD been a quicksave/quickload system.  Dying and waking up in a Vitae Chamber RIGHT NEXT TO THE SPLICERS THAT KILLED YOU makes no sense.  It's very anti immersive.

Not to mention it makes Big Daddies Trivial.  As previously mentioned.

Don't mistake me.  I'm enjoying the hell out of the game.  But.

[sigil]

The death system makes this game trivial.

:(

I find the same of quick save / quick load systems.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate having them.

If you don't think there's a difference between the two, I'm happy to debate it tomorrow when I'm less tired.  Suffice to say, I'd have been a much happier bunny if it HAD been a quicksave/quickload system.  Dying and waking up in a Vitae Chamber RIGHT NEXT TO THE SPLICERS THAT KILLED YOU makes no sense.  It's very anti immersive.

Not to mention it makes Big Daddies Trivial.  As previously mentioned.

Don't mistake me.  I'm enjoying the hell out of the game.  But.

There's a couple of things that makes the big daddies trivial. the more I see about how different things can work together, the more in love I am with this game

[UnSub]

The death system makes this game trivial.

:(

I find the same of quick save / quick load systems.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate having them.

If you don't think there's a difference between the two, I'm happy to debate it tomorrow when I'm less tired.  Suffice to say, I'd have been a much happier bunny if it HAD been a quicksave/quickload system.  Dying and waking up in a Vitae Chamber RIGHT NEXT TO THE SPLICERS THAT KILLED YOU makes no sense.  It's very anti immersive.

Not to mention it makes Big Daddies Trivial.  As previously mentioned.

Don't mistake me.  I'm enjoying the hell out of the game.  But.

I agree that BioShock isn't perfect. The physics are odd sometimes (like accidentally kicking a trash can that goes flying off when I can't do it intentionally), the ragdoll has issues (I wish they'd stop waving to me after I've killed them, dammit), the game movement is like a run'n'gun shooter when it is screaming out for stealth and the game has been designed so that death isn't a real problem so that FPS players get annoyed by the ease of playing. I don't mind vita-chambers, but it does raise questions like "Why and I getting rezzed and not all the Splicers I put down?".

However:

This is nothing compared to the polish of the rest of the game. The plasmids are many and varied, opening up a number of options to how you develop your character. In-game sound is just awesome - the noises that Rapture itself makes as you move through it add a lot to the atmosphere, as do the ramblings of your enemies and the tapes you find. Direct combat is fun, but it's often better (i.e. more fun, YMMV) to use the more indirect methods (hacking, plasmids) to get through. Plus this game has a story that is (to the point I've played to) worth following.

Bioshock is a great send-off for Irrational Games and is a greater game than the sum of its parts. Pity about the drama surrounding the PC version.

[UnSub]

Honestly, I don't think that people who regularly pirate games are going to be swayed by a delay in release by the pirate community.  I doubt if their thought patterns are, "Well, Fairlight dropped the ball this time.  Fuck 'em I'll go get it at the store."  I would much more easily believe that all it means to them is that they wait a bit longer and play something else in the meantime.

The only game developers I remember reading about how their piracy protection helped them was a Gamasutra article about a Spyro the Dragon game. It took (from memory) 4 weeks for it to be cracked, which was enough time for sales to exceed expectations.

Yes, there are a group of hardcore pirates who will wait. There are also likely a group of gamers who take everything they can get for free but also want everything NOW. If it takes a few weeks for someone to get around the BioShock DRM, those gamers will go out and pay cash money for it. Then there are the casual pirates etc, etc.

Also: this entire issue of PC games, DRM and piracy is again why consoles look so much more attractive to every dev studio that isn't doing multiplayer online games. Yes, console piracy exists, but it certainly isn't as far advanced as PC game piracy.

[Samprimary]

This game is not a Robot Jesus.

May He have mercy on your digital soul.

[Ironwood]

And, again, I could get stoned for this, but :  I could really do with more numbers in this game.  Beef up the RP aspect of it a little.

(This Plasmid gives you A LITTLE health and Eve when hacking.  How much is A LITTLE ?  Is it less than A LOT ?  WoW.  Informative....)


The story is good, the graphics are great, the sound is awesome, but it falls down for me on 3 main areas :

1 - Death System : Kills immersion a little.  Later on, it kills it A LOT.
2 - Enemy Variation : Schild pegged this one just right - the amount of enemies is woeful.
3 - RPG 'Elements' are too 'trace'.  :(

I think it suffers a little too much consolisation also.  I find that even the highest hacking challenge is either trivially easy with a Mouse/Keyboard or impossible simply due to the placement of Breakers and Alarms.  (Plasmids do, of course, Help.)

I'd like to pre-empt another screed of text from Unsub by repeating something he seemed to ignore earlier :  I'm liking this game a lot.  I'm merely trying to be critical here.


PS - I found the story (of which we'll not talk here) and the way it was revealed to be absolutely fascinating.  Indeed, so fascinating that I didn't even mind that I'd figured it all out by around the second 'act' and most of it in the First.

I may talk more on that later in the spoiler zone.  Maybe.

[Samprimary]

Me & my best bud are unstoppable fucking gods of hacking because we used to play Pipe Dream on an NES controller.

Here, we gots us a mouse. The only way a hack will not be completed by us is if it is made impossible by alarm/overload tile configuration.

[Murgos]

Here, we gots us a mouse. The only way a hack will not be completed by us is if it is made impossible by alarm/overload tile configuration.

I'm playing the 360 version and one of the first things I thought when trying to complete a 'red gauge' hack was, "This would be about 300% easier with a mouse."  Aiming kinda sucks too, I end up knee-capping everyone for some reason.

[Bunk]

Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the game, but I am going to jump on the "picking it apart" bandwagon.

The death system is an issue to me. I was trying to figure out why I wasn't getting psyched up in the big fights like I have in other games. It hit me - you really can't fail to kill something. Take on a Big Daddy and die. Get rezzed and go back, he's still down health. Hell, using that method, I could kill Big Daddies with the fucking wrench if I really wanted to. It takes the tension out.

Second issue - I'm really liking the story so far, but I really think the immersiveness would have been helped by face to face interaction with NPCs. The shortwave is not good enough. Nor are scenes of someone yelling at you from a balcony or through a window. HL2 at least gave you intermission levels where you actually got to meet NPCs that were not trying to eat you, and the NPCs actully interacted with you directly.

Basically, it's a really pretty game, with cool themes and ideas, but I'm finding it very lacking in immersion and suspense.

[Miasma]

I don't mind vita-chambers, but it does raise questions like "Why and I getting rezzed and not all the Splicers I put down?".

Questions like that are answered if you find the right tape recorder.  I think that particular question gets answered about three times actually.

[Ironwood]

Yes, it does.

Just not satisfactorily.  In fact, none of it makes sense, especially considering [THE SPOILERS].

And whatnot.

[Wolf]

Honestly, I don't think that people who regularly pirate games are going to be swayed by a delay in release by the pirate community.  I doubt if their thought patterns are, "Well, Fairlight dropped the ball this time.  Fuck 'em I'll go get it at the store."  I would much more easily believe that all it means to them is that they wait a bit longer and play something else in the meantime.

The only game developers I remember reading about how their piracy protection helped them was a Gamasutra article about a Spyro the Dragon game. It took (from memory) 4 weeks for it to be cracked, which was enough time for sales to exceed expectations.

Yes, there are a group of hardcore pirates who will wait. There are also likely a group of gamers who take everything they can get for free but also want everything NOW. If it takes a few weeks for someone to get around the BioShock DRM, those gamers will go out and pay cash money for it. Then there are the casual pirates etc, etc.

Also: this entire issue of PC games, DRM and piracy is again why consoles look so much more attractive to every dev studio that isn't doing multiplayer online games. Yes, console piracy exists, but it certainly isn't as far advanced as PC game piracy.

The funny thing is that the pirated x360 version runs withtout any troubles... hey, why are you looking at me like that? I live in pirate land.

[Ironwood]

Incidentally, I've read that Enrage is meant to wear off.  It never does for me.  Am I bugged ?

[Rasix]

I just reload when I die.  *shrug*  I think it's cheese and meant that I lost.  So, I reload.

Bunk: You get some NPC face time later on. Not much, but just about everyone is too bugfuck insane.

[Signe]

Bugger.   

[Samprimary]

The game removes all of the 'cycle-back' repetitions of normal computer gameplay, which was the intent. The game's infinite-lives concept elegantly discards, for the sake of convenience, such 'necessary realisms' as death, which really only mean repetition and frustration through reloading. You never actually die in these games, there's only do-overs. So they figured, why not discard the formalities and get rid of deaths that are sure to translate in many ways into un-fun repetition? Additionally, they are kind enough to give you a last shot for your medkits instead of having random catastrophies shunt you brutally into the afterlife.

Some people will say that real death adds to the gameplay experience and that they feel like the lack of any real death in the game degrades their gameplay experience. Subjectively, they are right, but real death is an option, still. You can mandate a forced reload for every vita-chamber respawn. The choice of your death penalty is now essentially up to you, and they've only really added a new option: to say 'that death was bs' and keep playing from that point without having to reload.

Some people say that merely being given the availability of infinite lives destroys most of the game's tension and difficulty. This is true, but this option has already been available to gamers for many many years now in every game that allows you to abuse quicksaves. That said, I wish that vita-chambers had a toggle in the game. You should have been able to turn them off. Shortly from now, you will be able to turn them off.

[pants]

I find it pretty interesting that the game's been out for about a week, and they still haven't been able to find a crack for it.  A quick trip to the bay of Jack Sparrows finds a few trojans pretending to be a crack, and the most popular torrent is just a rip of the DVD, which states that it hasn't been cracked and you'll need to find a crack for it somewhere else.  I gotta say, pain in the arse DRM and all, I think SecureROM can claim a victory in this particular battle over the pirates - I can't remember a game as hotly anticipated as this being untorrentable for as long as this.

Which of course means we can expect more of this in the future :(

[UnSub]

I'd like to pre-empt another screed of text from Unsub by repeating something he seemed to ignore earlier :  I'm liking this game a lot.  I'm merely trying to be critical here.

Let me have my screed, dammit!

[Moaner]

I never played System Shock 1 or 2 as I was too busy playing the latest incarnation of Quake at the time, so I kept wondering wtf you people could be so excited about.

Then I picked this up while grocery shopping a few days ago, mostly on a whim.  I'm in awe.  It's seriously one of the most engrossing games I've played in years.  Instant classic in my eyes. 

But, it's eating my Persona 3 time!!

[Bunk]

Some people say that merely being given the availability of infinite lives destroys most of the game's tension and difficulty. This is true, but this option has already been available to gamers for many many years now in every game that allows you to abuse quicksaves. That said, I wish that vita-chambers had a toggle in the game. You should have been able to turn them off. Shortly from now, you will be able to turn them off.

I know that your post is mostly in agreement with me, but I have to emphasize that there is a big difference between quicksave and the vita chamber. If I come back from a quicksave, that Big Daddy is still at full health.

I could simply force myself to reload every death, but the problem there is that the game seems to have been balanced to the idea that you will die fairly frequently and just keep respawning. I might be able to play on Easy and get away with it, I don't know.

It's too bad, I was really hoping that this would be one of those really tense games that made want to play with the lights on. For some reason or another, it isn't.

[Engels]

Well, I'm glad its not only me that dies at least 3 times per Big Daddy, runs out of ammo and ends up throwing barrels at the danged thing till it finally dies of boredom.

[Ironwood]

I know that your post is mostly in agreement with me, but I have to emphasize that there is a big difference between quicksave and the vita chamber. If I come back from a quicksave, that Big Daddy is still at full health.

Indeed.  It's a war of attrition where you have INFINITE SOLDIERS.

:(

Incidentally, if you find yourself liking Bioshock for the story and gameplay and haven't played System Shock 2, you really, really ought to.

Just don't do it for the graphics...

[Murgos]

Had my first fight with a Big Daddy last night.  I'm playing on Medium and after about 6 reloads I went with shock and shoot and move as a tactic which seemed to work fairly well but used up a crap load of health and eve and ammo (18 rounds of AP pistol and a drum of Machine Gun ammo).  The fight was WAY tougher than anything up to that point.

Still not sure about the Harvest vs. Save issue on the Little Sisters, I tried both to see what the differences are and I'm not convinced that 'saving' really is the more moral option.

[Ironwood]

How can you doubt it ??

[Kitsune]

The pistol flat-out sucks; you may as well be tickling a Big Daddy with the armor-piercing rounds.  And the pistol ammo isn't even abundant; I could see a use for the thing if the ammo was all over the place, or super-cheap at the vending machines, but it's $3 per shot and not terribly easy to find.  The 1-3 bullets dropped by splicers doesn't keep pace with the 3-4 bullets it takes to drop the splicers in the first place.  The machine gun and shotgun were my weapons of choice for general-purpose carnage, with the crossbow and grenade launcher for specific situations.

[Yegolev]

I haven't noticed any auto-aiming on the 360.  I believe that's something I would have picked up on.

Exists.  It is very hard to spot most of the time.  I even had a grenade I tossed via MIND CONTROL to curve, and I noticed this mostly because I was trying to toss it behind the guy, since he was hiding behind a column.  The grenades kept hitting the column, with a visible curve to the trajectory.  I think you can turn it off?  I'm too busy playing to look in the options menu.

I haven't read this whole thread in detail but it seems Ironwood is giving out the pamphlet that I was going to.  Has problems, sure, but it's one of the best games I have ever played.

[Murgos]

How can you doubt it ??

Have you checked out what happens if you 'harvest'?  Let me say that the 'save' option shows no sign of having cured them of their infection just that you treated their symptoms.  And then there is all the stuff Atlas is telling you over the radio about how they can't be cured.  Maybe Atlas is a lying sack of shit, maybe Tennenbaum is.  I'm pretty sure from the tapes that she is just as fucked up as everyone else down there is.  No ones motives are very clear.  Maybe playing further will give me more information but atm I am very unsure about what to do.

edit:  Don't anyone dare spoil it for me either.

[Tebonas]

I just checked what happens when you harvest. You tear that kid apart to get at the worm inside. That can't be equated with making her look normal again.

[cmlancas]

If that is a spoiler, please delete it.





Edit: Sorry, the other message was a bit too snarky.

[Rasix]

edit:  Don't anyone dare spoil it for me either.

Any direct response to any of your questions would be spoilerific. You get answers. 

If you're worried about harvest/save in a min/maxing mindset, I wouldn't be.  Saving is rewarded (heh, is that a spoiler?).

[Ironwood]

How can you doubt it ??

Have you checked out what happens if you 'harvest'?  Let me say that the 'save' option shows no sign of having cured them of their infection just that you treated their symptoms.  And then there is all the stuff Atlas is telling you over the radio about how they can't be cured.  Maybe Atlas is a lying sack of shit, maybe Tennenbaum is.  I'm pretty sure from the tapes that she is just as fucked up as everyone else down there is.  No ones motives are very clear.  Maybe playing further will give me more information but atm I am very unsure about what to do.

edit:  Don't anyone dare spoil it for me either.

Are you playing Bioshock ? 

I can't answer a single question without spoiling it, but I can address the harvest versus Not Harvest, since I'm going to assume that everyone saved before choosing and tried both :  In one you rip the girls chest open to get the fat juicy worm of an Adam Rate, in the other you pour a tonic down her throat and she skips off merrily looking like a healthy young girl, while you're left with half the Adam.

What the hell are you talking about ?

[Murgos]

I don't think it is a spoiler because when you do it the first time (save a little sister) a box pops up and says, "You will be rewarded more later even though you are harvesting less now."  I'm not worried about the min/maxing at all.

Without spoiling anything else for people as regards to what Tebonas is saying is, that's my point.  Just 'looking normal' doesn't mean to me that the cause of the problem was cured.  Atlas keeps telling you that the Little Sisters aren't human and can't be saved, maybe he's not lying.  Or, maybe he is.

I guess my point is that it's such an obvious mechanic that I am wondering if it's a 'gotcha' or if I am just way over-thinking it.  If I actually had to predict the answer my inner cynic says "They aren't that fucking clever."  But don't tell me if it is or it isn't or if I am or am not or if they are or are not.  Don't even hint at it because most of you suck with being obscure.  I'll figure it out on my own.

edit re Ironwood:  Yeah, that's what they want you to think. </Yossarian>

[JWIV]

I don't think it is a spoiler because when you do it the first time (save a little sister) a box pops up and says, "You will be rewarded more later even though you are harvesting less now."  I'm not worried about the min/maxing at all.

Without spoiling anything else for people as regards to what Tebonas is saying is, that's my point.  Just 'looking normal' doesn't mean to me that the cause of the problem was cured.  Atlas keeps telling you that the Little Sisters aren't human and can't be saved, maybe he's not lying.  Or, maybe he is.

I guess my point is that it's such an obvious mechanic that I am wondering if it's a 'gotcha' or if I am just way over-thinking it.  If I actually had to predict the answer my inner cynic says "They aren't that fucking clever."  But don't tell me if it is or it isn't or if I am or am not or if they are or are not.  Don't even hint at it because most of you suck with being obscure.  I'll figure it out on my own.

edit re Ironwood:  Yeah, that's what they want you to think. </Yossarian>

This is completely the wrong fucking thread to have this discussion in.    If your only concern is Adam, then the math works out in favor of harvesting.   If you don't want to kill little girls,  then don't and the hit you take won't be as bad as it initially appears.