2007-08 EPL Thread

[sidereal]

I'm convinced that the current situation is one of the reasons that European football baffles Americans. Chelsea and ManU are battling for the Premier championship which will be decided based upon the points generated by two games each against scrub teams. Meanwhile, these two teams are set to go head-up for the UEFA Champions League final (played in Moscow even though between two English teams in the same league), which is different from the FA cup which was most recently also a game between Chelsea and ManU, which has nothing to do with the UEFA Cup, which has nothing to do with the World Cup. So Chelsea and ManU within the space of a year are battling for three completely separate "championships."  It makes the head spin if you aren't familiar with the entirety of world-wide football.

While the particular details of each competition can get complicated (and you didn't even get into shit like Latin American Aperturas vs Clausuras), I think it's pretty nonbaffling, even for stupid Americans, once they get over the hump of understanding that football clubs have an identity out of any particular league.  In US team sports it's universally recognized that a team only exists within a single league at once, and without the league, the team goes away.  If you explain that FCs are more like golfers or tennis players -- who exist outside of a single competition and can be and often are involved in more than one competition at once -- the rest of it falls into place.

[lamaros]

Chelsea v Utd on the weekend was a good game, maybe the finla will be as good. Hopefully everyone is fit and firing for both teams and Utd wins 5-3.

You have to give some credit to the Chelsea team for achieving what they have without a manager for most of the season. It's just such a shame they all put on that tiresome affected aggression the whole time - no wonder everyone hates them.

I think you have to give some credit to Grant too.

As for Liverpool, if at the start of the season someone had told me our champions league campaign would involve breaking the record for the biggest win ever in the competition, beating Inter home and away, and beating Arsenal in a fantastic 4-2 victory at Anfield, only to play well in a semi but be knocked out by a freak own goal (and another offside goal in normal time second leg), I'd have been happy enough. Plus a Man U - Liverpool final would be the only thing uglier and nastier than a Man U - Chelsea final. So all in all, it's hard to get too upset.

If I had told you at the start of the year you would have been nowhere near contention in the premier league and under pressure for the 4th spot for most of the way, had only just scraped in to the knockout stage in the champions league and then beaten serialy underperforming (in the champions league) Inter over two legs when they had players sent off and injured, then won a great game against an Arsenal side having trouble with injuries and having recently been kicked out of the permier league, and then losing in the semi-final after being unlucky in the first leg but easily outplayed in the second, all while going out in the FA cup to barnsley and having the whole season dogged by issues with the club managment...

I think Liverpool fans should be annoyed at the season. They should have done better in the premier league and FA Cup and they were clearly not deserving of being in the Champions League final if you rank teams according to how well they've played in that competition.

Were you to do the same as this year next year everyone will be very very pissed off. If it's not a good result, why accept it this time around?

As for the Torres -> Babel switch, apparently Torres was feeling his hamstrings. Some managers make that shit up, but I'm inclined to believe Benitez since he has a history of just biting reporters heads off if they suggest he made a bad tactical sub, rather than lying about it. Plus Torres hasn't been rotated or subbed off in 'live' matches since the first couple of weeks of the season - so I doubt Benitez would start now.

Still doesn't excuse him for not subbing Babel or Crouch on in the second half when Liverpool had the momentum (but not any chances) and could have won the game in normal time if you ask me. Pennant on for Benayoun is hardly brave stuff.

Unfortunatly for Liverpool Benetiz doesn't know how to actually win games all that well. It's well and good to get draws and sneak by in the Champions League on penalties (2005, 2007), but it does shit all for you in the league (13 draws, 4, losses against Utd's 6 draws 5 losses).

If I was a Liverpool fan the only reason I'd still want to hang on to Benetiz is for consistency sake, a new manager now wouldn't really help considering the off-field position. That and his ties with Torres (imagine if Utd had managed to get Torres one of the many times they tried!).

[rk47]

On a betting perspective:

Man Utd v West Ham
West Ham is United's bogey team. I could be wrong but it's been a few years since they beat West Ham. Quite surprising and why Fergie is really tense with 2 matches to go and level on points with Chelsea. They want the three points but probably won't take risk since their goal difference too high for the blues to beat. Definitely take West Ham with +2 goal advantage (Pretty bullshit handicap imo). Tevez to start against his previous club, he'll probably score and United will hold on to 3 points to pressure Chelsea who plays much later. If they don't, this could be the end. 

[lamaros]

Utd have to win. West Ham in shocking form. Utd on the up after the win this week.

I think Utd will win easy.

Utd hasn't beaten West Ham for 3 games.

Conspiracy Theory:

Last year West Ham had to beat Utd to stay up. Utd had already won the title. West Ham won.

This year West Ham is safe and can't make the top 10. Utd needs to win to keep the title in their hands. Curbishly (the coach last year) has commented in the media about how Utd "deserves" to win the title and that he is good friends with Sir Alex.

Will Curbs return the favour of last year? 

[rk47]

this isn't serie A , Lamaros

if you look at italian weekend, Parma (19th)  is in a must win game vs Genoa  (9th), but Parma has 7 players unavailable (they lost the last games from a combination of 4 red cards and shit load of injuries). I don't know wtf is up with the bookies on this, but Parma giving 1.25 goal handicap to Genoa who is still chasing intertoto cup spot? Not to mention their remaining two games are against Inter ( VS AC this weekend) and Fiorentina, Parma is probably doomed. Even if Genoa lost by a goal, punters who ate the 1.25 ball handicap still wins half of their wager. I put my weekend entertainment money on this shit, it'd be gut-wrenching if this goes wrong but Parma is such a trainwreck, they haven't won't their last 5 games and it's past 10 games they've won by 2 goal margin. So fuck parma.

Oh, the Juventus affair last season actually was the only reason Parma still remained in the Serie A, so this relegation should come as a no surprise.

[eldaec]

I think Liverpool fans should be annoyed at the season. They should have done better in the premier league and FA Cup and they were clearly not deserving of being in the Champions League final if you rank teams according to how well they've played in that competition.

It's been a funny year in the CL, but I grant you Chelsea deserve to do well - but only given they have no manager, otoh, Man U had possibly the easiest run to the final in CL history. So on CL performances alone, I'm not really sure what you mean. On overall performances across all competitions, it's hard to argue with Man U, and it's nice to see the teams without the big European history getting their shot at the big prize, even if it could cost me my favourite line about Man U being just as successful in Europe as Nottingham Forest. 

I'd agree that on performances before the QF, Arsenal deserved better than drawing Liverpool.

As for the premier league, it is obviously disappointing to drop back to forth, not least because it was down to the same problem as prior seasons (albeit to a lesser degree) of not getting shit together early in the season. But fans have to realise that it happens, and that Liverpool are improving, the chavs played out of their skins this year, and Man U and Arsenal just improved more than us. Anyone who begrudges Man U and Arsenal's success this season is just being a dick. I think Man U and Arsenal are both incredibly well positioned for next season, so while I rather hope we can continue to improve on first half of the season performance, I'm not that hopeful of anything beyond about 80 points, another clear CL qualification, and a more consistent first half.

[lamaros]

It's been a funny year in the CL, but I grant you Chelsea deserve to do well - but only given they have no manager, otoh, Man U had possibly the easiest run to the final in CL history. So on CL performances alone, I'm not really sure what you mean.

Man Utd is clearly the best performed CL team. Has not dropped at points at home for 12 consectuive matches. Has not lost away this season.

Liverpool can blame their run on the fact the finished second in their group, so can Arsenal. They made it hard by losing games they shouldn't have lost. (Arsenal at least had the excuse of being up against Seville).

Utd knocked out Lyon, French Champions. Roma home and away, who are second in the Italian league and who knocked out run away Spanish Champions Real. And Barca who everyone acknowledges was playing their best football for the year and was undefeated in the Champions League to that point (and who is second in the spanish league).

Chelsea had a much easier run, Fenerbache and Olympicos, then Liverpool. Chelsea's run is piss easy in comparison, you'd have to be daft to deny that.

Barca had Celtic and Shalke. Liverpool had Inter (who never do anything in Europe) and Arsenal (who were tough). The Gunners at least had to deal with AC Milan, champions league specialists.

Best performed teams in the Champions league in the group stages: Man Utd, Chelsea and Barca - All undefeated.
Best performed who made it to the semis: Man Utd (undefeated), Chelsea & Barca (lost once). Liverpool (lost 3 times).

Easiest runs in order of easy to hard: Barca, Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool. But when you consider the fact that Liverpool had that hard run because they didn't win their group liek the other three it ceases to be an excuse.

On basicly any measurement you can make the best performed team is Utd. Followed by Chelsea or Barca. Liverpool's form was restricted to 5 games. The four against Inter and Arsenal and the first game against Chelsea.

As for the premier league, it is obviously disappointing to drop back to forth, not least because it was down to the same problem as prior seasons (albeit to a lesser degree) of not getting shit together early in the season. But fans have to realise that it happens, and that Liverpool are improving, the chavs played out of their skins this year, and Man U and Arsenal just improved more than us. Anyone who begrudges Man U and Arsenal's success this season is just being a dick. I think Man U and Arsenal are both incredibly well positioned for next season, so while I rather hope we can continue to improve on first half of the season performance, I'm not that hopeful of anything beyond about 80 points, another clear CL qualification, and a more consistent first half.

Arsenal hasn't had any success this year :)

Liverpool needs at least 3 decent signings I think, and you don't have the money for it. Arsenal needs at least two. Chelsea can do anything, depends if Drogba, Lampard and others leave. Utd will possibly sign another two players.

I think Liverpool can improve next season but I think that the league is still out of your contention. One of Utd, Chelsea or Arsenal will probably improve, the chances they all drop off a low, and Liverpool is still a way behind them all.

[rk47]

ahahah gg. 

[HaemishM]

I think Liverpool fans should be annoyed at the season. They should have done better in the premier league and FA Cup and they were clearly not deserving of being in the Champions League final if you rank teams according to how well they've played in that competition.

You're goddamn right we do, if for nothing other than the front office bullshit. I place the blame quite squarely on Tom Hicks, because he's a complete douchebag of an owner going way back. He fucked up the Texas Rangers and now he's fucking up Liverpool by being a completely classless assmunchkin. They should have done better all through the way, but three things have fucked them up:

1) No true top quality winger - Pennant is inconsitent, Benayoun is more of a central midfielder, and Babel is still learning how to play both midfield and in the English league. Kuyt has done well in this new formation, but he isn't an ideal player for it, imo. He does great defensive work but his offensive output suffers and Babel has no defensive skills and his crossing/passing is weak, as is his possession. They need to get a true right wing midfielder, and maybe play Insua instead of Riise next year. Riise has had a horror show of a season, and I'm just not sure his skills are up to the English game anymore.
2) Benitez's rotation system - Pick a fucking side and stick with it. He's done that pretty well in '08 since he came up with this 4-2-3-1 system, but the early part of the year there was just way too much chopping and changing. Voronin has been a complete wreck, and Crouch has been badly used (as in not at all).
3) Fucking Tom Hicks' ego - nuff said.

As for Man U.'s road to the Final, in specific Barca, they were NOT playing at their best when they faced Man. U. Have you watched them in La Liga this season? They gave up a 2-0 lead to Bilbao for fuck's sake. They've been a nightmare show all season. Ronaldhino has been hurt and is on the way out of the door. Henry has been inconsistent and hurt. They have seriously underperformed, and never even gave Real Madrid a good run at the title. Schalke has not performed that well this year, especially in comparison to the previous year's run that got them into the Champion's League. Celtic actually gave them a run at Park Head but laid down at the Neu Camp. Chelsea DID have the easiest run, but you cannot put Lyon or any French team in the same league as even Barca. Hell, Celtic or Fenerbache could have beaten Lyon, and Liverpool certainly could have. Roma doesn't scare me either but at least they aren't Lyon.

Liverpool's performance was shockingly mediocre to bad most of the year. Their best run was against Arsenal. 

[lamaros]

As for Man U.'s road to the Final, in specific Barca, they were NOT playing at their best when they faced Man. U. Have you watched them in La Liga this season? They gave up a 2-0 lead to Bilbao for fuck's sake.

What I meant was that their two games against Utd was their best form for the season, not that they were in good form this season. Look at the weekend, 6-0 drubbing, Utd has played them in to form!

Lyon is a good team with a good recent record in the champions league. Roma is a quality team too. Utd catching them without Totti was handy though, but we had managed them even with him before. Lyon was clearly harder than Celtic, Shalke and at least on a level with Fenerbache. If it wasn't for our history with Roma I'd have put them just as hard as Inter (because Inter has never impressed in the Champions League).

[HaemishM]

That was not Barca's best form against Man. U. It just wasn't. They couldn't finish for shit, and it wasn't down to United's defense or goalkeeping. There were chances Barca just didn't take or didn't hit.

As for Lyon, no, they are not as good a side as Celtic. Schalke and Fenerbache, maybe. Celtic, nope.

[lamaros]

That was not Barca's best form against Man. U. It just wasn't. They couldn't finish for shit, and it wasn't down to United's defense or goalkeeping. There were chances Barca just didn't take or didn't hit.

As for Lyon, no, they are not as good a side as Celtic. Schalke and Fenerbache, maybe. Celtic, nope.

Celtic better than Lyon. 

Anyway, who cares now.

Arsenal could drop off next year. Helb and Fabergas to leave, no quality looking like comming in. The squad still too small.

Transfers before next season will be interesting. Looks like Utd is getting the Portugal right back and a striker.

[sigil]

So, we've got Stoke and WBA with the playoff to go. Wouldn't mind seeing Crystal Palace back up in the premiership, although my heart pulls for Jay Demerit and Route 1 Watford to give it another crack.

[HaemishM]

Arsenal could drop off next year. Helb and Fabergas to leave, no quality looking like comming in. The squad still too small.

They are losing Flamini too, but I'm not ready to write them off yet. Hell, I did that this year, and they should have won the title. They might actually have won the title had they not lost Eduardo and their nut with it.

[Hoax]

Arsenal could drop off next year. Helb and Fabergas to leave, no quality looking like comming in. The squad still too small.

They are losing Flamini too, but I'm not ready to write them off yet. Hell, I did that this year, and they should have won the title. They might actually have won the title had they not lost Eduardo and their nut with it.

Yeah they should have, I feel like I called Arsenal pretty damn well.  Best looking football, should win title, might not due to lack of toughness/depth and the brutality of the English game/schedule.  I didn't realize just how inept the Arse medical staff appear to be though.  Fucking clowns over there.  Can't believe how good Chelsea's uninspired all-star squad still is w/out Jose.  Hoping for a Utd double because I can't stand watching Chelsea play.  Also praying they lose some fucking talent to wherever Jose turns up.

[HaemishM]

I get the feeling Drogba will be gone after this season at Chelsea, as well as Schevchenko. Lampard will probably stay. It would probably be a shame if they shitcanned Avram Grant, but if he doesn't win the Champion's League, he's probably gone.

[eldaec]

Regarding Arsenal, it is worth remembering that practically every member of the team will be a better player next season; they are almost all younger than their peak. Despite the talk I'll be a little surprised if Helb leaves, and I really doubt Fabregas is going anywhere (though if one leaves I guess you could argue more players would consider their position).

Wenger needs to buy one or two players, but he's not exactly alone in that.

Top 4 next season will still be the big 3 + Chelsea. Though as with Liverpool this year, and Arsenal last year, at some point in february one of the teams will end up with 2 games in hand and only a couple of points ahead of 5th, and the media will get overexcited, like they always do.

[rk47]

I have no doubt man united will win the title next year.
Chelsea: Meddlesome owner, Questionable manager
Liverpool: Same old story
Arsenal: Adebayor, Flamini, Hleb, if they keep losing their talents like these, they'll be a high class West Ham.

I'm already readying my wager on Man United to win the Premiership next year. 
This season finale should be quite exciting!

[lamaros]

Regarding Arsenal, it is worth remembering that practically every member of the team will be a better player next season; they are almost all younger than their peak. Despite the talk I'll be a little surprised if Helb leaves, and I really doubt Fabregas is going anywhere (though if one leaves I guess you could argue more players would consider their position).

Yeah that was a typo! I meant to say Flamini. Hleb I don't know. Looks like a good chance to go.

[sidereal]

So, we've got Stoke and WBA with the playoff to go. Wouldn't mind seeing Crystal Palace back up in the premiership, although my heart pulls for Jay Demerit and Route 1 Watford to give it another crack.

I was secretly rooting for Wolves to make the Premiership, just because I think their logo is fucking awesome and Hennessey is a tits keeper.  It would have made for a fun next season.  Their losing out on the playoffs on GD sucked.

Edit:  Should add that I think it's awesome Stoke are going up.  The Promotion/Relegation system is at its worst when the same 5 or 6 teams just churn back and forth between the two leagues (like West Brom and Birmingham).  All that does is create a sort of "Premiership Jr" division that those teams are in and everyone else gets locked out.  Seeing a team that was in League 1 in '02 steadily rise through the Championship is much more satisfying.  Here's hoping they stay in the Premiership next season.

[HaemishM]

If Arsenal loses Fabregas, they will fall out of the top 4. He's just that fucking good of a playmaker. Adebayor and Eduardo would have been about half as effective without Fabregas this year.

[Hoax]

EPL thoughts:
-I don't know why Arsenal would lose so much talent, but I haven't quite started following all the xfer gossip, I'm going to wait until the window actually opens.
-I'm sad that the Gunners couldn't keep their team together enough to challenge/win the title.
-I'm sad that Chelsea's talent buy has proven so effective, in other sports teams like Chelsea (Redskins, NY Rangers etc.) typically suck, I hate it when they are so good.
-I'm glad Ronaldo won all sorts of honors, he is an amazing player, I've been saying that forever.
-I wish Middlesborough had gone down, I hate them, but if Fulham's stupid squad can stay up that'll make me happy.
-I wish Blackburn the best of luck keeping their current players and improving the squad a little, with a bit more depth and one or two more good players they would be another team with a credible chance at top 6.  Ditto to Everton, I think the world of Cahill and Yak is the man so here's hoping I see more of both of those teams on FSC and that they dont have their rosters raped by the bigger clubs, or even worse their players stolen by stupid clubs like Newcastle and Spurs.
-Man it was fun watching Spurs fall apart.  I felt bad for Chimbonda and Keane but fuck the rest of Spurs.  I guess I sort of have to root for Ramos because I got a huge kick out of his Sevilla teams for the last few years.
-I wish Wigan wasn't such trash, for some reason they are my underdog team of choice but god every game I saw of them was pretty terrible.
-Credit to Sven for making everyone in England look like a shit talking chump idiot.  Also for proving that Italians and Brazilians are just better footballers then their English counterparts.  I hope he continues to do crazy shit and sign people I've never heard of and that Citeh make another run next year.
-Props to Haem for being such a Portsmouth backer, didn't see that coming at all.
-I hope Watford make it back up, they tried hard the year before this & I thought they had a good manager from his post match comments.  I'd like to see them have another crack, but they better revamp the roster a little more this time around.

What the fuck time/channel do they show the Championship playoffs on in America so I can try to catch them?

[HaemishM]

What the fuck time/channel do they show the Championship playoffs on in America so I can try to catch them?

Setanta Sports has them, and they are usually live so it's likely going to be in the morning. I think they play the 1st legs during the middle of the week and the 2nd on the weekend, but couldn't tell you the date.

[sigil]

More than Chimbonda and Keane to root for on Spurs, but even I'll admit there's some douchebags in that team that I'd love to see dissappear.

[HaemishM]

Finally watched the final Championship game of the season last night. Damn shame my Wolves didn't make it into the playoffs... by one fucking goal. Blearg. As for the playoffs, I'm hoping either Palace or Hull City goes up. If it's Hull City, I'm afraid Frazier Campbell will get recalled by Man. U. He is so damn fun to watch, that kid WILL be playing for a top flight side next season. Of course, I wouldn't have a problem with Bristol City going up as well... from League One to the Premier League in 2 years would be pretty damn impressive. As long as it's not Watford. We've seen what they can do.

Damnit, both Reading and Birmingham are in the drop zone and Bolton is safe. But at least it looks like Reading has a better matchup than Fulham for the final weekend, Derby. If Reading can't even beat Derby, they deserve to go down. Fulham plays Portsmouth and Birmingham play Blackburn, so I'm going to predict Reading survives while Fulham and City drop.

Also, Man. City management is fucking retarded to get rid of Sven. Prepare for City to drop to the bottom of the table next season.

[Hoax]

Also, Man. City management is fucking retarded to get rid of Sven. Prepare for City to drop to the bottom of the table next season.

I missed this?  When/why/who/wtf?

If that has happened I hope Citeh fucking gets dropped out of the prem, what a fucking assbackwards move.  If West Ham pick him up they might actually challenge for top6 in a year or two.


/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/   Fucking lulz.   Good I like Benfica/Porto/Sporting.  Hope he can give them more of a chance in European football.

[HaemishM]

Sven was told about 2 weeks ago that he would not be asked back to City, but he chose to finish out the season. So he's gone and signed a 3-year deal with Benfica.

[sigil]

Sven now crosses paths with Freddy Adu.

[sigil]

Just saw this: MLS just got its first  international brand shirt sponsor.

DC United's kits will now sport a Volkswagen logo. Signed a five year, 14 million dollar  sponsorship deal.

[eldaec]

EPL thoughts:
-I don't know why Arsenal would lose so much talent, but I haven't quite started following all the xfer gossip, I'm going to wait until the window actually opens.
-I'm sad that the Gunners couldn't keep their team together enough to challenge/win the title.

If the papers are to be believed, it is all about wages.

Arsenal's wage structure tops out at around £60k/week whereas Liverpool, Man U go up to around 100k, and Chelsea to 140k.

Despite that, and despite the relative lack of depth, Arsenals overall wage bill is broadly the same as Man U (less than Chelsea, more than Liverpool), and their revenues aren't really keeping up (behind Man U and Chelsea, though a good bit ahead of Liverpool).

It looks like they are paying too much money to reserve players, and can't afford to keep the first team in the style to which they would like to become accustomed.

[lamaros]

EPL thoughts:
-I don't know why Arsenal would lose so much talent, but I haven't quite started following all the xfer gossip, I'm going to wait until the window actually opens.
-I'm sad that the Gunners couldn't keep their team together enough to challenge/win the title.

If the papers are to be believed, it is all about wages.

Arsenal's wage structure tops out at around £60k/week whereas Liverpool, Man U go up to around 100k, and Chelsea to 140k.

Despite that, and despite the relative lack of depth, Arsenals overall wage bill is broadly the same as Man U (less than Chelsea, more than Liverpool), and their revenues aren't really keeping up (behind Man U and Chelsea, though a good bit ahead of Liverpool).

It looks like they are paying too much money to reserve players, and can't afford to keep the first team in the style to which they would like to become accustomed.

Rumors are Flamini was on about 10k a week before he left. Milan is going to be giving hmi 60k or so...

[sigil]

They live! They live!

God Bless Fulhamerica

But as a side note, what a beating by 'boro.

[rk47]

hahah derby didn't even do anything. fuck em i really won't miss them at all. Useless club like that is just point fodder.
Man city though was a disaster. There was a rumour they were topping the Fairplay table that ensures a UEFA cup spot should they not get a single card at all in the last match.   

[sigil]

Yeah, this is breaking out slowly now, but The red card on Citeh, combined with the fight in the stands on the city side, might just be enough to knock them to third in Fair play.

Should that be true...
Everton already has entry...

meaning it would go to the next one.


LOL FULHAM GETS A UEFA SPOT.

[HaemishM]

LOL FULHAM GETS A UEFA SPOT.

You have got to be fucking kidding me.

I'm pissed that Reading went down but Fulham stayed up AGAIN. That team should so be relegated. Fucking Pompey... can't even beat Fulham on the last day at home. What the fuck was that?

And how the hell did City lose 8-1 to BORO?