Hellgate London Alpha

[Mrbloodworth]

Keep complaining about the sub fee. That'll change it.

RMT WILL NOT WORK, IT'S BASED OFF THE IDEA THAT LOOT IS MOTHERFUCKING RANDOM. IF I KNOW WHAT I'M GETTING, I AM NOT INTERESTED AND NEITHER IS THE DIABLO COMMUNITY.

FUCK.

Most RMT i have seen are not about loot, they are about consumables, buffs, and cosmetic changes or members only features (more space and crap).

IE: Dungeon runners, non members can use potions, that don't stack, members can use ones that do. See the hook there? (Even if thats not a RMT)

[schild]

Dungeon runners isn't RMT. It's a subscription based service. I'm not sure why you brought it up.

RMT is exactly about loot and such most of the time. In fact the original korean and MUD RMT schemes were all gold and items.

[Mrbloodworth]

Dungeon runners isn't RMT. It's a subscription based service. I'm not sure why you brought it up.

RMT is exactly about loot and such most of the time. In fact the original korean and MUD RMT schemes were all gold and items.

Because its very close to a Diablo online, and to illustrate that not all of the RMT  have to be about loot, that one was a good hook, just like what they plan to use. I didnt bring it up to say it was a RMT, just that that little item, could be an example. Again, most of the ones i look at are not about loot, but buffs ETC.. SOTNW is a RMT, but i haven't seen any loot items on the list, just buffs and stuff (+xp, ETC..).

I don't care at all, ill be checking it out, but not all RMT is about loot, it really isn't. Can be storage, buffs, cosmetics etc...

[schild]

Diablo style games have loot that gives "buffs and stuff."

Therefore, you'd be buying loot.

Therefore, it would be RMT for loot.

Maybe you're having issues with what I'm saying because you don't understand the games.

Trust me, I'm right.

[Mrbloodworth]

Diablo style games have loot that gives "buffs and stuff."

Therefore, you'd be buying loot.

Therefore, it would be RMT for loot.

Maybe you're having issues with what I'm saying because you don't understand the games.

Trust me, I'm right.

So a RMT potion thats +100XP for 4 hours = loot? Don't think i have ever seen that type of augmentation attached to a sword.

I see loot as any item in the game thats equipable for the most part (other than the other items in game, vender trash, crafting, ETC)

Like i said, most RMT come in the forum of buffs and other items, if you wish to translate that into loot, i'm not going to argue.

I think our disconnect is more a matter of definition.

[schild]

So a RMT potion thats +100XP for 4 hours = loot? Don't think i have ever seen that type of augmentation attached to a sword.

Potions are potions. Augmentations are augmentations. Your sentence doesn't parse.

I see loot as any item in the game thats equipable for the most part (other than the other items in game, vender trash, crafting, ETC)

No. Loot doesn't have to be equippable. At all.

Like i said, most RMT come in the forum of buffs and other items, if you wish to translate that into loot, i'm not going to argue.

You can't argue because you're wrong.

I think our disconnect is more a matter of definition.

Nope, you're just wrong.

There aren't many genres/type of gaming that I'm THIS black and white about. But I know my fucking dinggratslootwhore games.

[Morfiend]

I see what MBW is saying. I personally dont like RTM, but I do see his point of view.

I agree with Schild, in that I dont *think* it would work, but you never know what they could come up with. I think the comparision to Dungeon Runner was a pretty good one.

[Mrbloodworth]

Like i said, RMT isn't a set thing, it can be just about anything.

I do get a portion of what your talking about, however, i just do not believe its a black and white as you make it out to be.

If i get a sword thats a +4 to something, and a potion thats a +4 to the same thing. The first is a loot item, the second is a RMT augmentation that dosn't detract from my permanent sword augmentation.

In the intrest of continuing, please define thies terms:

"Loot".
"Augmentation".
"Potions".
RMT items.

In my mind, even a consumable potion augments your player for a period of time. If thats what it does.Aallot of the items can be "loot", and RMT items, or one or the other. There is allot of cross over.

I i have seen more than just buffs, like cosmetic, storage, or features for RMT... all of them are viable options for RMT in a game like this.

The potion stacking could easily be a RMT scroll, or something, does that then make it loot?

That being said, i would prefer the 10$, just like i do with dungeon runners.

[Morfiend]

Or like Dungeon Runner, where you dont have access to be able to obtain the super high end loot unless you pay money. You dont buy the loot, you buy the ability to have the loot drop, or some shit.

[schild]

If i get a sword thats a +4 to something, and a potion thats a +4 to the same thing. The first is a loot item, the second is a RMT augmentation that dosn't detract from my permanent sword augmentation.

Christ your dense.

Ok, the first one is a sword of +4, let's say rat-killing. It actually has less value than the potion of +4 rat-killing. Why? The potion can be used with any weapon. If I don't use a sword and I find one, all I can do is sell it in game. If the potion is never a drop, they're taking away from everything the game is about.

As for your four definitions, you asking those questions reveals you simply don't know enough about the systems to be having this conversation. But, I'll play your game and label them out very basically.

Loot is anything dropped by a mob, found in a chest, or found from destroyed furniture. This includes augmentations and potions. For any given items, no store in the game should sell the top tier of any item. Except maybe health potions, and only late in the game. Diablo 2 taught us that, and it's the right way to do it.

Augmentations are a type of loot. Sometimes weak ones can be purchased.

Potions are loot. Often purchased in game as well. Though you can generally find (via loot) stronger potions than you can buy at any given time (i.e. you can buy light potions but loot regular potions, a la Diablo or Fate or Titan Quest).

In my mind, even a consumable potion augments your player for a period of time. If thats what it does.Aallot of the items can be "loot", and RMT items, or one or the other. There is allot of cross over.

Potions and augmentations are nowhere near alike. You're attaching too much to the verb augment and forcing it upon other shit trying to clump it together. Stop doing that.

Look, the moment you allow people to buy stuff with real money in a game based around loot, the game is fucked. You can argue it all you want, but you're wrong.

Also, Having gone back and forth with you so much, I've finally broken down. Don't take it personally but fucking learn how to spell or use a spellchecker. Your posts are making me stabby.

You dont buy the loot, you buy the ability to have the loot drop, or some shit.

This is kind of reasonable. it depends on if it changes the chance of loot dropping though (like upping your percentage of magic items, that would be flat out cheating, even if purchased). I paid for Dungeon Runners, and they sort of gimp non-paying members a lot. It's kind of insulting. I didn't like how it was handled. They obviously increased the rate at which shit dropped.

[Mrbloodworth]

Or like Dungeon Runner, where you dont have access to be able to obtain the super high end loot unless you pay money. You dont buy the loot, you buy the ability to have the loot drop, or some shit.

Thing is, with dungeon runners...whats "high end" loot? The game, and encounters scale to you..so..does it matter other than an order of magnitude or sliding scale?

Heh, the things that got my 5$ for that game was the storage and stackable potions. But i do like yellow items ;)

[Mrbloodworth]

Christ your dense.

I am sorry you feel that way.

Ok, the first one is a sword of +4, let's say rat-killing. It actually has less value than the potion of +4 rat-killing. Why? The potion can be used with any weapon. If I don't use a sword and I find one, all I can do is sell it in game. If the potion is never a drop, they're taking away from everything the game is about.

Most of the potions are temporary in RMT shops. As for the sword, you wouldn't have been able to use it anyway, item shop or not. We both know that equivalent items WILL drop in a random loot game... So there is no taking away there. If the potion is a never drop, then they have just made a sale. as its optional, and not required.

As for your four definitions, you asking those questions reveals you simply don't know enough about the systems to be having this conversation. But, I'll play your game and label them out very basically.

I ask because of the way you use them. I said augment, when thats what potions (as well as items ETC..) do, they augment your stats... you have a different idea for it, it seems. A Trait is an augmentation.

Potions and augmentations are nowhere near alike. You're attaching too much to the verb augment and forcing it upon other shit trying to clump it together. Stop doing that.

Your doing that with the word "Loot".

Look, the moment you allow people to buy stuff with real money in a game based around loot, the game is fucked. You can argue it all you want, but you're wrong.

I don't think this is true, it depends on the game, and the items in question...and thats been my point all along.

Also, Having gone back and forth with you so much, I've finally broken down. Don't take it personally but fucking learn how to spell or use a spellchecker. Your posts are making me stabby.

My bad.

You dont buy the loot, you buy the ability to have the loot drop, or some shit.

This could be, yet another RMT item, lol.. Really..It can.

For the record, i am not a fan of RMT, most implementations i have seen do just what you fear, and unbalance the game in some way.Big no-no in competitive games.  But, that does mean that they always will.

Thing is, you have this RMT idea in your head, and seem to think there is only one kind..I don't think this is the case. The possibilities are endless. Only reason i even posted anything, is because i thought someone who plays as many games as you do, would not be so quick to label, file, and dismiss possibilities.

[schild]

Most of the potions are temporary in RMT shops. As for the sword, you wouldn't have been able to use it anyway, item shop or not. We both know that equivalent items WILL drop in a random loot game... So there is no taking away there. If the potion is a never drop, then they have just made a sale. as its optional, and not required.

The problem here is that you believe them controlling what does and doesn't drop to make an extra dime via RMT wouldn't ruin the game.

It would.

You obviously don't care as much about this type of game as I do.

It would fucking RUIN IT. This sort of game HAS to be subscription based if anything.

You started the augment stuff wiith this:

So a RMT potion thats +100XP for 4 hours = loot? Don't think i have ever seen that type of augmentation attached to a sword.

Attaching the word RMT to it is gaming the system. A potion that's +100XP for 4 hours = loot. Yes. It should be dropped. Whether or not it was ever attached to a sword doesn't mean a single goddamn thing. It's apples and fucking rainbows.

Your doing that with the word "Loot".

No, I'm not, I very VERY clearly just laid out definitions for you.

I ask because of the way you use them. I said augment, when thats what potions (as well as items ETC..) do, they augment your stats... you have a different idea for it, it seems. A Trait is an augmentation.

I don't have a different idea for it, I just have thousands of hours of loot whoring and understanding, discussing, reading and helping with such systems.

I don't think this is true, it depends on the game, and the items in question...and thats been my point all along.

No shit, but we aren't talking about just any game. We're talking about Diablo clones. And that's it. I could care less about any other type of game. And once you realize we're talking about diablo clones, you realize that it doesn't matter about the items in questions. At all. You don't buy items in a fucking diablo style game, not like this, not to skip the loot whoring part. Regular MMOGs are already ruined for me when I see people in end-game armor and weapons, since I know I'll be striving for that. The point of a Diablo Game is, most of the time, you aren't striving for the same shit everyone else is. It's more about - how efficiently can you survive and how rich in loot and money can you get? That is, if you're playing hardcore mode - which you should be.

Thing is, you have this RMT idea in your head, and seem to think there is only one kind..I don't think this is the case. The possibilities are endless. Only reason i even posted anything, is because i thought someone who plays as many games as you do, would not be so quick to label, file, and dismiss possibilities.

I love RMT and I love the future of RMT. It will be fantastic for indie groups. Just not for a loot based game. Not like this. It's an error and completely wrong. These types of games are about the gamble. Stacking the deck via any means where the rich (irl) are better by default ruins the dynamic.

I'm not dismissing possibilities, I'm dismissing you thinking that you understand how a diablo-style game should work, when clearly you DON'T GET IT. I don't understand how you don't get it either. It's like, the simplest game design ever. And one of the only ones I would blow my fucking top about having RMT applied to.

[Mrbloodworth]

schild, i do get it, And i do get where your coming from. I'm just playing devils advocate here (have been).

Stacking the deck via any means where the rich (irl) are better by default ruins the dynamic.

Thats how i used to feel about mmogs, but then i thought...Who am i competing with? I think at some point, i stopped caring about the "Joneses". Because, they have no bearing on my fun in a mmo. None, as i don't really PvP in mmoRPG's. May be one reasons i do like the PvMP in LOTRO. Its an odd creature. Same way i felt when playing Diablo, i only played that with friends as well.

However, i do think a properly thought out RMT system in a Diablo style game could work..

How about this, forget augm...err... Stat adjusting items (lol).

How about cosmetics, Storage, Features (such as potion stacking), Member only servers..ETC...as RMT? Very close to what they are already doing, no?

[schild]

uhhhhhhhh those things you just listed aren't very good RMT fodder. They're the type of thing you'd be buying every month you played... In other words it becomes a sliding price subscription. Might as well get a flat rate out of everybody.

[lamaros]

Look, the moment you allow people to buy stuff with real money in a game based around loot, the game is fucked. You can argue it all you want, but you're wrong.

This is a banner day, I agree with schild twice!

Though I would have to make a minor adjustment:

The moment you allow people to buy limited resources with real money, and or allow the benifit of spending money on the game to be uncapped, or capped at a level beyond the reasonable, the game is fucked.

Which is to say, I think it's ok to have a game that is 'free' but that allows each player to rent a specific item of leetness for $10 a month. As long as they can only buy one and that there is only one item. Because what you are doing in that case is basically an optional subscription fee. It'd be like WoW saying "WoW is now free, but only those who pay $15 a month will be able to zone in to instances". On a technical level you are selling loot, but insofar as it effects the game it acts like a subscription cost.

Muds I've played adopt this model. They have certain items which can be purchased by the player and not obtained any other way. but once you've purchased these items then that's it; the differentiation becomes between purchasers and non purchasers, not on level of expenditure.

And such a thing has a place,  but unless there are real reasons for using a "optional subscription" method such as this I would just stick to simple subscription.

[Yegolev]

I also agree with schild for the most part.  In a Diablo clone, buying items isn't going to make purists or poor people happy; I happen to be of the former set.  However, I can easily see paying for things that don't affect the level of competition: decorative things, or storage space, or UI tweaks, or any number of things that aren't competitive edges.  Would you pay a bit in order to NOT see the retarded decals other players paid to have on their avatars?  I might if those decals were hideous... also, I just might be a genius.

The real deal here is that you have to design the game for whatever you are going to sell right from the get-go, not just decide you are going to make Lord of Destruction 2: Ebay Edition.  If you make the game from the start with this idea, and assuming you pull off a good design, I submit that you could have a game where item sales don't break the system.  This system would not be a Diablo 2 clone.

[tkinnun0]

Oh God what pathetic pining for the good old days of Diablo when you had to take your chances with the random-number generator just like everyone else. Let me boldly guess that your will to play Diablo broke the moment when you learned that other people were hacking the game and getting the items they wanted. Sure, I know, you tried to tell yourself that it doesn't matter what other people do. That even if they were spoiling their fun, you could still have yours.

But it was all in vain.

If I were to tell you that I've upped the drop chance to almost certain in Titan Quest and I still don't find it a very good game, would that make you want to play Titan Quest more, or less?

Those Evercrack addicts had their EQ, and you had your Diablo. The only remaining question: who's going to make your Vanguard?

[schild]

What the hell are you talking about?

I used a massive number of hacks on Diablo 2 to see the armor and weapons I never got. I was then done with Diablo 2. There was nothing left to see.

And when I saw high-level armor in the DDO beta, I knew I never needed to own the game, I'd seen the end and it wasn't shiny enough. (I'm not saying DDO is a Diablo clone here, I'm just saying that all MMOGs are e-peen calculators, and top level gear is as big as your e-peen gets, and if that shit isn't cool, I have absolutely nothing to strive for since they all have the same playstyle. As such, Diablo style loot systems where there's an obscene amount of high level gear and it's randomized has the best opportunity of keeping me playing).

There's a difference between playing good games and seeing everything and playing shitty games because I need a fix. I'm not playing Loki. It's a piece of shit. I didn't play Beyond Divinity, it was poorly optimized and ahem, had Star Force. I'm not desperate, I just happen to love a certain gamestyle.

[lamaros]

I'd just like to go on the record and state that I don't think much about Diablo and never have, but that I think Hellgate has a chance to be a good game besides!

[eldaec]

Anyone know if HG:L are doing the stupid seperate-servers-by-region shit?

I can find plenty of pricing info - not so much on european server arrangements.

[Calantus]

Oh God what pathetic pining for the good old days of Diablo when you had to take your chances with the random-number generator just like everyone else. Let me boldly guess that your will to play Diablo broke the moment when you learned that other people were hacking the game and getting the items they wanted. Sure, I know, you tried to tell yourself that it doesn't matter what other people do. That even if they were spoiling their fun, you could still have yours.

But it was all in vain.

If I were to tell you that I've upped the drop chance to almost certain in Titan Quest and I still don't find it a very good game, would that make you want to play Titan Quest more, or less?

Those Evercrack addicts had their EQ, and you had your Diablo. The only remaining question: who's going to make your Vanguard?

Wait, what? Diablo 2 loot was fun because it was random. And Diablo 2 itself was fun (beyond the first couple of plays) because of the loot. It wasn't all about having the loot though, it was about seeing it drop and wondering what you got. I will never forget the ping of a ring hitting the floor. That sound let you know there was magic loot right there at your feet because every ring was magical. And rarer than other items (or so it seemed). I loved picking them up and hovering over them to see what they were. Maybe it's an upgrade, maybe not, but it was always fun to find out. OH SHIT ITS A UNIQUE RING! HOT DAMN WHICH ONE IS IT? Oh it's nagelring. Oh well. Damn a unique ring, so close.

I never really played Diablo 2 online. There was nobody to show off my epeen to, it was just fun as hell to get the loot for its own sake.

*ping*

I guess if you played it by the rules that you HAD to have every best item ever then it might have sucked. It definitely sucked in WoW when you went on your upteenth run of X place and didn't get what you wanted. But you don't have to play the Diablos like that. I kick back and enjoy the ride, wearing whatever I can get from drops, gambling, or buying from a vendor. The brothers are going to die regardless of what I'm wearing and there's no damage meter telling me I need better gear. I sometimes gathered some MF and grinded a boss when I felt like it, but it was for fun and once the luster of seeing what came out wore off I moved on to the next activity.

[Murgos]

Killing a boss in D2 and watching the fountain of loot and then quickly mousing over everything looking to find that ONE item with absurd stats that would cause you to respec your character was fun.  It would be pointless if you just bought Super Uber Axe of Humpty Dumpty for a buck.  It's one play through of the game vs dozens or for some people even hundreds.

[tkinnun0]

  It's one play through of the game vs dozens or for some people even hundreds.

Yes, and if you're making Diablo Online, you have to target your content to those dozens-to-hundreds-people, otherwise it won't feel like Diablo. Guess what: that's also known as the Vanguard way.

[schild]

  It's one play through of the game vs dozens or for some people even hundreds.

Yes, and if you're making Diablo Online, you have to target your content to those dozens-to-hundreds-people, otherwise it won't feel like Diablo. Guess what: that's also known as the Vanguard way.

You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about, do you?

[tkinnun0]

The way I see it, if you're going to remake EQ, you have two choices: you give it the WoW treatment or the Vanguard treatment. If you're remaking Diablo, you have an extra option: Dungeon Runners.

World of Diablo: no death penalty, you can complete your set by doing quests, bosses drop tokens that you can exchange for loot.

Diablo: Saga of Heroes: hardcore mode, a minigame you have to grind to get access to the next act, some loot drops are DISABLED for your character.

Or Dungeon Runners.

Those are your options.

[schild]

It's nice to see you aren't designing games.

[Xerapis]

It's nice to see you aren't designing games.

I think most of us would say that about most of the rest of us.

[pxib]

World of Diablo
Diablo: Saga of Heroes
Dungeon Runners.

Those are your options.

I lol'd.

[Calantus]

The way I see it, if you're going to remake EQ, you have two choices: you give it the WoW treatment or the Vanguard treatment. If you're remaking Diablo, you have an extra option: Dungeon Runners.

World of Diablo: no death penalty, you can complete your set by doing quests, bosses drop tokens that you can exchange for loot.

Diablo: Saga of Heroes: hardcore mode, a minigame you have to grind to get access to the next act, some loot drops are DISABLED for your character.

Or Dungeon Runners.

Those are your options.

Why do you get 2 options to not make a Diablo clone when in the process of making a Diablo clone? See you're missing the fundamental point here. Diablo is the loot. That's what it is. You've done the equivalent of suggest that in making a Planescape: Torment clone you can keep all the tedious words in it or just let everyone get right to the action. What you have suggested is stupid.

[lamaros]

It's nice to see you aren't designing games.

[tmp]

Loot is anything dropped by a mob, found in a chest, or found from destroyed furniture. This includes augmentations and potions. For any given items, no store in the game should sell the top tier of any item. Except maybe health potions, and only late in the game. Diablo 2 taught us that, and it's the right way to do it.

Augmentations are a type of loot. Sometimes weak ones can be purchased.

Potions are loot. Often purchased in game as well. Though you can generally find (via loot) stronger potions than you can buy at any given time (i.e. you can buy light potions but loot regular potions, a la Diablo or Fate or Titan Quest).

Would it still get people's manties in a twist if RMT was simple alternative for in-game shops, carrying the same goods just for RL currency rather than in-game coins? Or, to clone model from some Korean games etc if the strength of items was like: NPC shops < RMT shop < top tier loot?

I mean, if someone rather spend a buck to buy dunno, stack of health potions rather than grind in game for hour to get game money to buy the same, that ruins it for the hardcore how?

[Murgos]

Most modern MMO's it wouldn't mean a thing but throw in contested mobs, ala EQ2, and then it becomes a disaster.

In EQ2 there are publicly attackable raid mobs just wandering around certain areas, they spawn rarely and have most of the best loot.  Whoever gets there first get's to try their luck but it's nto easy, I watched a 24 man raid of well equipped level 70's wipe again and again and again the other day trying to take one down.  If you can just zerg cash at it to win, well, then what was the point?

[Yegolev]

Never have been a fan of potions.  Assuming they are in HGL, I would not have a problem in them being sold for real money... of course, I have my expectations on how potions would be used in gameplay but those are just guesses.  I do have a problem with someone buying a thing that most people would "work" for, but if it cuts out tedium and lets me get to the fun part then I'm fine with it.

[schild]

I can't remember a time in any diablo-style game where I had to grind for potions. Not once.