Pirates of the Burning Sea- OPEN BETA!

[Yegolev]

I kinda think it's just broken to have levels, as described above, in a PVP game.  You either have a screwed up system (re: EQ) or you have to segregate your players (DAoC).  EVE's got issues in this area as well, just with different mechanics.  This seems to apply most to combat due to the sheer number of skillpoints required to compete against a pilot born in 2003... a number you won't be reaching anytime soon if your pilot was born in 2007.  For a career in something else, such as mining, this is less of a problem since you can hit max for pertinent mining skills inside a year if you apply yourself.  After that, it's all player skill and metagaming; this is what I would term "the fun part".  Keeping up with the Joneses while they are successfuly assploding you with their superior station wagon skills is not "the fun part".  In my opinion.

FYI, I was a professional miner in EVE.  Couldn't fight worth a damn, but I could put a real cockstab on an ice belt.

[Venkman]

I've been trying to pull up the previous definition we had for "DIKU". It was in one of these MMOG threads, within the last year. My SearchFu sucks.

I think Alkieria captured most of what makes a DIKU feel like a DIKU (which is different from DikuMUD, as happens when a term evolves from the origins, like Copy Machine to Xerox). But the part I feel is important is the ever-escalating Experience Points need per level.

Each level requires more XP than the prior one. In theory this is balanced by mobs/objectives providing more XP when done at appropriate levels. But the overall feel is one that advancing to the next level takes slightly longer than it took to achieve the previous one. This becomes more palpable as characters level up because most times, new abilities and/or ways to customize a character are tied to those levels. This was very pronounced in early EQ1 days when you had to wait multiple levels before getting access to a new block of abilities. Eve does not have this problem because character advancement initially is somewhat independent of what you are doing in the game world at any given time. And then later what it is co-dependent, it is more tied to abstracts of how you act and what you choose to contribute to the social and economic elements as a player. This is why Eve's skill-training system is so much better on paper (where I feel it falls down is when skills can take weeks to learn, even with implants. Though at least, as far as I've experienced, you're not really blocked from content by having to wait such weeks).

So, {Compartmentalized Specialist Skills} + Level + Hit Points + {Logarithmic XP Requirements} gives the feel of a DIKU.

[eldaec]

The subtext of the objections to Diku- games is not simply that they have Levels, Hit points, and classes, but the way those things work together in a system that permits only a single axis of character development: leveling up your one single class.

Would that be a fair assessment?

No.

Daoc, EQ, etc all had multiple axes of development. Crafting, RP, XP, AA, MLs, Gear etc etc. It didn't stop them having Diku-disease.

The problems with Dikus have been that the game designs make it feel like you are levelling for levelling's sake; xp gathering methods feel like predictable time-serving which include no decision making, or have decision making processes that are solvable and trivialised in less than the time it takes to 'complete' the game.

I'm not suggesting that this is all that defines the Diku genre (I'd add the d20 combat model, exponential power/level curve, and the class system as well), but I am saying that this is the problem with it so far.

Pirate Hunter sounds like it is a Diku to me. But RvR is something that helps break up the problems above. Your ship combat system and 'balance' based avatar combat also interest me and may help... or might not.

[ajax34i]

I think we're arguing our way to the mechanic of blocking players from content based on how much time they've played as what "sucks".  EVE has this, but unlike a DIKU, it doesn't require work, just time, and the PVP can be seen from day 1 (you can jump in a frigate and go tackle in 0.0), so it only applies to PVE (can't do L3 missions from day 1).

But, basically, the "traditional" MMO game is designed so you can't see all the zones immediately, but must instead progress through them at whatever pace the developers want you to.  And I, too, would prefer to NOT see this in a PVP game.  I would accept it in a PvE game, but not a PvP game.

[Lantyssa]

I believe the simple explanation is that no one wants a system which encourages leveling more than having fun.

DIKU is more specific than that, but what it boils down to due to implementation.

[Sky]

To put it another way: I could design an FPS that incorporated Levels, Hit points, and classes, but it's already been done, it's called Battlefield 2.  I don't think anyone would call that a Diku-FPS.

No discernable power differential. Maybe a slightly nicer weapon, but if you suck, you'll still get kerpwned by better players with stock weapons. You don't gain more armor class and health by levelling up. Power differential between classes is good, for variety and specialization. But power differential for time played (or money spent) is bad.

It's critical to have a level playing field for PvP.

One great example of PvP done right (and then squandered) is Planetside. Their system of level advancement is great, you don't get more powerful, you just get more options. A BR20 character might be able to switch roles on the fly whereas a BR5 character is stuck in one role....but they both have 100 health and the same amount of shots will take either out. (armor and shields being equal, of course)

[Sky]

I believe the simple explanation is that no one wants a system which encourages leveling more than having fun.

DIKU is more specific than that, but what it boils down to due to implementation.

I think you're also bringing player expectations into the mix. For example, I think we'd agree that EQ2 can generally be called a diku derivative, but I play with combat experience turned off. Granted, I am the minority on that one, but there is a lot of fun to had just hanging out learning the zones well and questing, and without turning off combat exp, I'd miss most of what I've played through this year.

[HaemishM]

To put it another way: I could design an FPS that incorporated Levels, Hit points, and classes, but it's already been done, it's called Battlefield 2.  I don't think anyone would call that a Diku-FPS.

But it sure as hell has a grind. It's just that the grind is filled with (mostly) fun gameplay instead of repetitive hit a button and eat a sandwich gameplay.

For the most part, your post was spot-on.

[Yegolev]

Players certainly are blocked from some content in EVE until X amount of time has passed.  Not fleet combat in zero-sec, but ships and equipment.  This isn't necessarily bad, the unlockable content, since it gives us all a reason to keep playing.  Flying a battleship will take a bit of time.  Flying a freighter will take a lot of time.  There's not a whole lot of work involved, but you do have to be bothered to earn money to buy the skillbooks and that means you are going to have to "level up" so you can fly something other than a frigate, so that you can speed up the leveling/cashflow.  I don't really have a problem with this in general, but it can be annoying at times when you are outmatched, and it's just depressing to know that you aren't ever going to catch up with the Old Guard when it comes to skillpoints or research points.

I'll agree with Haemish here and submit that a game will not have a grind if it is fun to accumulate the advancement points.  This is basically how I managed to become an ice miner in EVE, meaning I'm derranged enough to enjoy mining and refining.

[eldaec]

I think we're arguing our way to the mechanic of blocking players from content based on how much time they've played as what "sucks".

Not quite.

Most dikumuds block you from the promise of more content.

When you finally level up and look at the new stuff, it turns out to be an empty contentless shell, which quickly fills with your overflowing tears. BUT it's ok, because now the game is blocking you from the promise of even *more* new content, and this time they really mean it....

[Nebu]

FPS-style gameplay suffers from many obvious shortcomings:

1. It limits the size of the battle.  I have yet to play a game where you can get lag-free combat with more than about 20 people involved.  Lag and FPS will end up with frustrated customers or customers that become adept at exploiting the lag.

2. There are a bazillion free FPS games out there already.

3. FPS and player development don't mesh well in the minds of most MMOG enthusiasts.  Players want to watch their characters evolve and want incentives to do so.  PS and GW are great games, but they suffer from this exact situation.  Now ask yourself what would happen to the GW playerbase if they started charging $15 a month.  

4. Many MANY people (including myself) suck at pure FPS games and opt to play games with a slower pace.  If 85% of your playerbase sucks at your game mechanics and are always being dominated by the top 15%, you'll have a rough time retaining players. There has to exist a mechanic that gives every player a chance to win.  My choice was to play FPS games like BF1942.  I could still be successful by learning to outthink my opponent rather than just out-react them.    

5.  How do you keep a level playing field while simultaneously encouraging character development.  It's IMPOSSIBLE to balance a large variety of power sets if you allow the players to mix/match the sets as they please.  There will ultimately be preferred builds that will render many other builds less effective.

6. Most MMO gamers enjoy the time = power paradigm.  Change this and your title is destined to be niche.  Niche isn't bad mind you, it's just not the cash whale that investors are after.  Even EvE (a great example of a deep pvp experience) suffers from the time = power paradigm albeit to a lesser degree.

7. Let's not forget the Pokemon phenomenon.  If there are rare items and abilities, many players will strive to achieve them.  This is the retention carrot.  Well, this and the "if I play for another 6 months, then I'll be able to beat a few people".

8. Etc.  

I love a skill-based game, but you need to be careful what you consider to be the "skill" component.  Hitting a series of buttons fast is a combination of muscle training and genetic fast twitch density.  Is that skill?  I'd argue that a slower paced combat system that decides battles based on who made the better decisions would be a better example of a skill-based game.  That's just my personal taste though.  

[qedetc]

i like a skill-based game, and i define skill as the subset of skills which i like.

[Nebu]

i like a skill-based game, and i define skill as the subset of skills which i like.

That was exactly my point in the post above.  The key to a successful game would be to identify the "skills" that a majority of PAYING customers deem important and build a game from that premise.  While FPS has a large following, I doubt that you could create a persistant world based upon it that was able to maintain a subscription base.  Now if they could create something engaging enough to pull it off, I'd likely be a fan.

[tmp]

FPS-style gameplay suffers from many obvious shortcomings:

8. Etc.

There's split between preference for first person perspective and 3rd person perspective. While theoretically the game can try to include both, in PvP environment it leads to people whining they have to play in 3rd person just to be on equal footing (there's certain drawbacks to 1st person view which are reason why this split in preferences exists in the first place)

[Lantyssa]

There's split between preference for first person perspective and 3rd person perspective. While theoretically the game can try to include both, in PvP environment it leads to people whining they have to play in 3rd person just to be on equal footing (there's certain drawbacks to 1st person view which are reason why this split in preferences exists in the first place)

Like often giving me motion sickness and unable to orient my direction at all?

[Venkman]

As others have said, I agree one of the challenges with persistent FPS games is that their target audience doesn't see a clear benefit for that persistence, and certainly don't feel a need to pay something extra for it. Is this because FPS games are considered "sport"? Or is it that any ingame reward that buffs an ability gives players the impression their own practiced skill matters less?

I long for an RPG with FPS controls, hurling fireballs with power adjusted based on quest rewards but which otherwise are thrown, and hit or miss based on my skill and that of my opponent, AI or not. But this is in that uncomfortable middle ground between games about knowledgeable use of time-based stat improvement and games where your personal dexterity decide much.

TR tries to do both.  on the effectiveness :)

[grunk]

Diku, as compared to similar things which aren't diku, boils down to 3 things, really.  Classes, levels, hit points.  Any one by itself isn't damning, but when you have all three, it's pretty much diku.  EveO and UO are both good examples on non-diku MMOs, and most of the rest are diku.  Pick a class, start at level 1, then kill things for exp to get to level 2, at which point your damage/hitpoints all get bigger numbers, but you now need to fight harder mobs in order to get exp in order to level, in a loop.  Until you cap out levels, at which point the devs either laugh, or change the nature of the game.

So my perception here is that you're not actually objecting to Levels, Classes, and Hit points, but the way those systems act.

Levels are just an abstraction, but a level based system where the relative levels of two combatants is the deciding factor sucks.

Classes are just a way of grouping abilities together, but a class based system where one (or more) classes have an insurmountable advantage, and where you cannot freely switch between those classes, sucks.

Hit points are another abstraction, but a system where hit points increase dramatically as you level leads to the same "level over all" problem.

To put it another way: I could design an FPS that incorporated Levels, Hit points, and classes, but it's already been done, it's called Battlefield 2.  I don't think anyone would call that a Diku-FPS.

The subtext of the objections to Diku- games is not simply that they have Levels, Hit points, and classes, but the way those things work together in a system that permits only a single axis of character development: leveling up your one single class.

Would that be a fair assessment?

You see, the BF2 analogy is where it kinda falls short. If am a higher rank then you in BF2, that does not change the dynamics in which we can play together. In Diku-rooted mmos, levels are restrictions… I think EQ2’s mentor system, came close to trying to address this but imo you can’t fix it. But the bottom line is that, the levels pretty much dictate what exactly you’re doing that night. This is across the board for all mmos. I find funny when I look at sigils fellowship system, which imo… not only caters to the level slaves but more so, increases the insanity gap to a whole new level… its just, that Vanguard is very easy (don’t believe the hype lol).

Bottom line, diku games are built to keep you playing like the crack whore you are. Wana play with your buddies? Well shit, you better fucken stay up those two extra nights to catch up! Wana be in that uber guild? Well shit, you better go camp that mob to get that uber shield that they require you to have! You wana OMGWTFPWN someone in a 13 year old pvp battlefield, you better go raid that instance for the rest of your life! Where as in BF2, the fact that I have unlocked a certain weapon that you don’t have, does NOT in any way shape or form, diminish your ABILITY to kill me…

So, as a huge fan of BF2 and someone who has played to many mmos… your analogy is completely fucken wrong.

EvE imo, the the clear example of how far you can go when you break down the walls that the whole Diku model puts up.

IMO, I don’t play EvE atm, and I play more of a diku style game that happens to incorporate the skill based talents that we see in EvE… so I am not going to blindly say that skill based systems that Ralph had a heavy hand in creating is the final solution… imo a heavy emphasis on sand box along with a class system that simply defines ones specialization is the correct route to take. IMO, in my mind the perfect mmo is a sand box game that has FUN game play and thought provoking game systems. I could really care less what setting it’s in (but a break from fantasy is long over due in this over saturated genre).


The reason devs follow diku model(s), is because it gives them a crystal clear outline in how to design the game. Things like character balance and such, a fucken after thought… as in a sand box game, character balance should be treated… imo, well fuck character balance lol. IMO broken content is often the most fun… often, some class is over powered and hence often that class is very fun lol. Imo, often, what that means is the game designer actually did something right (which is rare). Imo, what that designer should do, is instead of going to the CVS server and destroying, maybe why not figure out how you can bring the other archetypes / classes up to fucken spec… this is tactic that square soft has done, the only problem with these fuckers, is that they take a year to do that lol.

 The genre needs to move in one of two directions. Either the direction where it becomes much more strategic or much more twitch (I don’t mean FPS, I mean more like Zelda… could you imagine a OOT mmo…).

PoTBS… the boat combat and the avatar combat aint fun, it fails. At the end of it all, our goal is fucken kill things. That’s what we do… all this, world simulation shit is really neat (pointing at EvE) but if the act of me killing something is not visceral and compelling it fails (EvE).

[schild]

You see, the BF2 analogy is where it kinda falls short. If am a higher rank then you in BF2, that does not change the dynamics in which we can play together. In Diku-rooted mmos, levels are restrictions… I think EQ2’s mentor system, came close to trying to address this but imo you can’t fix it. But the bottom line is that, the levels pretty much dictate what exactly you’re doing that night. This is across the board for all mmos. I find funny when I look at sigils fellowship system, which imo… not only caters to the level slaves but more so, increases the insanity gap to a whole new level… its just, that Vanguard is very easy (don’t believe the hype lol).

Bottom line, diku games are built to keep you playing like the crack whore you are. Wana play with your buddies? Well shit, you better fucken stay up those two extra nights to catch up! Wana be in that uber guild? Well shit, you better go camp that mob to get that uber shield that they require you to have! You wana OMGWTFPWN someone in a 13 year old pvp battlefield, you better go raid that instance for the rest of your life! Where as in BF2, the fact that I have unlocked a certain weapon that you don’t have, does NOT in any way shape or form, diminish your ABILITY to kill me…

So, as a huge fan of BF2 and someone who has played to many mmos… your analogy is completely fucken wrong.

EvE imo, the the clear example of how far you can go when you break down the walls that the whole Diku model puts up.

IMO, I don’t play EvE atm, and I play more of a diku style game that happens to incorporate the skill based talents that we see in EvE… so I am not going to blindly say that skill based systems that Ralph had a heavy hand in creating is the final solution… imo a heavy emphasis on sand box along with a class system that simply defines ones specialization is the correct route to take. IMO, in my mind the perfect mmo is a sand box game that has FUN game play and thought provoking game systems. I could really care less what setting it’s in (but a break from fantasy is long over due in this over saturated genre).


The reason devs follow diku model(s), is because it gives them a crystal clear outline in how to design the game. Things like character balance and such, a fucken after thought… as in a sand box game, character balance should be treated… imo, well fuck character balance lol. IMO broken content is often the most fun… often, some class is over powered and hence often that class is very fun lol. Imo, often, what that means is the game designer actually did something right (which is rare). Imo, what that designer should do, is instead of going to the CVS server and destroying, maybe why not figure out how you can bring the other archetypes / classes up to fucken spec… this is tactic that square soft has done, the only problem with these fuckers, is that they take a year to do that lol.

 The genre needs to move in one of two directions. Either the direction where it becomes much more strategic or much more twitch (I don’t mean FPS, I mean more like Zelda… could you imagine a OOT mmo…).

PoTBS… the boat combat and the avatar combat aint fun, it fails. At the end of it all, our goal is fucken kill things. That’s what we do… all this, world simulation shit is really neat (pointing at EvE) but if the act of me killing something is not visceral and compelling it fails (EvE).

[grunk]

You see, the BF2 analogy is where it kinda falls short. If am a higher rank then you in BF2, that does not change the dynamics in which we can play together. In Diku-rooted mmos, levels are restrictions… I think EQ2’s mentor system, came close to trying to address this but imo you can’t fix it. But the bottom line is that, the levels pretty much dictate what exactly you’re doing that night. This is across the board for all mmos. I find funny when I look at sigils fellowship system, which imo… not only caters to the level slaves but more so, increases the insanity gap to a whole new level… its just, that Vanguard is very easy (don’t believe the hype lol).

Bottom line, diku games are built to keep you playing like the crack whore you are. Wana play with your buddies? Well shit, you better fucken stay up those two extra nights to catch up! Wana be in that uber guild? Well shit, you better go camp that mob to get that uber shield that they require you to have! You wana OMGWTFPWN someone in a 13 year old pvp battlefield, you better go raid that instance for the rest of your life! Where as in BF2, the fact that I have unlocked a certain weapon that you don’t have, does NOT in any way shape or form, diminish your ABILITY to kill me…

So, as a huge fan of BF2 and someone who has played to many mmos… your analogy is completely fucken wrong.

EvE imo, the the clear example of how far you can go when you break down the walls that the whole Diku model puts up.

IMO, I don’t play EvE atm, and I play more of a diku style game that happens to incorporate the skill based talents that we see in EvE… so I am not going to blindly say that skill based systems that Ralph had a heavy hand in creating is the final solution… imo a heavy emphasis on sand box along with a class system that simply defines ones specialization is the correct route to take. IMO, in my mind the perfect mmo is a sand box game that has FUN game play and thought provoking game systems. I could really care less what setting it’s in (but a break from fantasy is long over due in this over saturated genre).


The reason devs follow diku model(s), is because it gives them a crystal clear outline in how to design the game. Things like character balance and such, a fucken after thought… as in a sand box game, character balance should be treated… imo, well fuck character balance lol. IMO broken content is often the most fun… often, some class is over powered and hence often that class is very fun lol. Imo, often, what that means is the game designer actually did something right (which is rare). Imo, what that designer should do, is instead of going to the CVS server and destroying, maybe why not figure out how you can bring the other archetypes / classes up to fucken spec… this is tactic that square soft has done, the only problem with these fuckers, is that they take a year to do that lol.

 The genre needs to move in one of two directions. Either the direction where it becomes much more strategic or much more twitch (I don’t mean FPS, I mean more like Zelda… could you imagine a OOT mmo…).

PoTBS… the boat combat and the avatar combat aint fun, it fails. At the end of it all, our goal is fucken kill things. That’s what we do… all this, world simulation shit is really neat (pointing at EvE) but if the act of me killing something is not visceral and compelling it fails (EvE).

and explain to me, o great mod... why have i lost?

[Venkman]

It's Raph, short for Raphael, not Ralph.

Otherwise, I agree with you on some points. Game imbalance doesn't necessarily mean "broken". We've never played a completely well balanced game with longevity, because every game gets new content, obsoleted old content, and fundamental changes to drive up expansion/content sales. There are only degrees of brokenness.

The problem is the time factor. Players who don't have a lot of time don't want to waste it all playing a game ill-effective at certain points (endgame, PvP, etc). This was part of the smartness of WoW: dozens of classes are not a selling point because the veterans of the genre know that means 5 of those classes will be complete, 10 will be on some sort of nerf/buff chopping block, and the rest will get eventually ignored by overworked developers who look at the number of people playing and say it ain't worth it because so few do (because they quit because the class was not done/broken). Better to launch fewer classes and offer diversity within them. WoW Talents add a lot of complexity, but so very not as bad as the Skills + Boxes + Mastery + Archetypes + Professions + other of, say, SWG, nor the spec/sub/sub of EQ2.

Further, things like EQ2/CoX mentoring are good features but mitigate the usefulness of time-based levels. They are there in recognition of a system that segregates casual friend groups. It'd be better to offer short, medium and longterm rewards that are compelling and time-based but which do not segregate players by level.

FPS UI, player dexterity with items acquired through adventuring, RPG trappings, Fantasy setting. Go!

[schild]

and explain to me, o great mod... why have i lost?

[grunk]

It's Raph, short for Raphael, not Ralph.

Otherwise, I agree with you on some points. Game imbalance doesn't necessarily mean "broken". We've never played a completely well balanced game with longevity, because every game gets new content, obsoleted old content, and fundamental changes to drive up expansion/content sales. There are only degrees of brokenness.

The problem is the time factor. Players who don't have a lot of time don't want to waste it all playing a game ill-effective at certain points (endgame, PvP, etc). This was part of the smartness of WoW: dozens of classes are not a selling point because the veterans of the genre know that means 5 of those classes will be complete, 10 will be on some sort of nerf/buff chopping block, and the rest will get eventually ignored by overworked developers who look at the number of people playing and say it ain't worth it because so few do (because they quit because the class was not done/broken). Better to launch fewer classes and offer diversity within them. WoW Talents add a lot of complexity, but so very not as bad as the Skills + Boxes + Mastery + Archetypes + Professions + other of, say, SWG, nor the spec/sub/sub of EQ2.

Further, things like EQ2/CoX mentoring are good features but mitigate the usefulness of time-based levels. They are there in recognition of a system that segregates casual friend groups. It'd be better to offer short, medium and longterm rewards that are compelling and time-based but which do not segregate players by level.

FPS UI, player dexterity with items acquired through adventuring, RPG trappings, Fantasy setting. Go!

Yeah i kinda blew hes name... but I really dont get why there is this constant reminder of the "casual" crowd. Does it really matter how long it takes me to reach that platau as long as i actually had fun doing it? and as long as it actually matters? I mean, this is where you people just completley miss the boat. Dont you have a desire to be unique and to make a real effect on a games world... in a game like wow, your a clone and the world is 100% static... but hey, you can logon for 30 mins and get 10 pelts... GG

[schild]

Yeah i kinda blew hes name... but I really dont get why there is this constant reminder of the "casual" crowd. Does it really matter how long it takes me to reach that platau as long as i actually had fun doing it? and as long as it actually matters? I mean, this is where you people just completley miss the boat. Dont you have a desire to be unique and to make a real effect on a games world... in a game like wow, your a clone and the world is 100% static... but hey, you can logon for 30 mins and get 10 pelts... GG

[Venkman]

Yeah i kinda blew hes name... but I really dont get why there is this constant reminder of the "casual" crowd. Does it really matter how long it takes me to reach that platau as long as i actually had fun doing it? and as long as it actually matters? I mean, this is where you people just completley miss the boat. Dont you have a desire to be unique and to make a real effect on a games world... in a game like wow, your a clone and the world is 100% static... but hey, you can logon for 30 mins and get 10 pelts... GG

Having meaningful impact on the world is one thing. That's possible in any offline game. But being a persistent shared space with thousands of other people who can also concurrently affect the world is different, because in this environment, there is always someone doing it first.

The reason some games have gotten less immersive is because of the ability for those with a crapload of time to fuck it up for those who do not. Allowing this to run unchecked limits your market potential. That's fine for some companies who aren't pushing thousands of employees and tens of millions of dollars in development annually. CCP can simply do things that Blizzard as a part of Vivendi cannot, because sometimes the more resources you have the less chances you can take with them. It is the way of things.

Everyone wants to be unique, but people accept varying degrees of it. WoW is a fun pastime experience for the casual-MMO player. It also services the needs of harder-core. But those seeking true immersion, true dominance over some and diplomacy with others, they seek different games.

All you need to do is look across the genre to see how much of that type of immersion a good percentage of gamers want.

[Yegolev]

Does it really matter how long it takes me to reach that platau as long as i actually had fun doing it? and as long as it actually matters?

Yeah, of course it does.  If it doesn't take a long time, it's not hardcore and someone will make fun of your failure at life.  Also, it all matters as long as you are getting better at killing.  Oh, the sweet, sweet killing... like what you'll find in Square-Enix's astounding online fantasy game, Final Fantasy XI!  With Retsyn!

[Slayerik]

The Grunk is making some real progress here. I think with a few less "imos"(we know its your opinion, you're the one posting) , better spelling and grammar he might make it around here!

He has a grasp for MMOs, just doesn't recognize that players like him don't make up the majority anymore. 7 million 'casual' WoW players do.

[ajax34i]

and explain to me, o great mod... why have i lost?

I don't know why he thinks it, but in my opinion, you have a long post peppered with defused swear words, and I could follow the first few paragraphs of it but I couldn't understand what you were saying in the last few paragraphs (knew the words, but the sentences didn't make sense).

Also, quoting a long post just so you can type a one-liner at the botom, annoying.  This is not a fast-moving board.  (And, speaking of slow board, I've seen and remember your other posts).

[Yegolev]

The Grunk is making some real progress here.

I agree, my joking aside.  I do want to write a 'grunk.awk' program to pass his posts through, but I thought it was pretty damn coherent.  But just wait!

My take on the losing was that people who read that entire post lost, not grunk.

[grunk]

Does it really matter how long it takes me to reach that platau as long as i actually had fun doing it? and as long as it actually matters?

Yeah, of course it does.  If it doesn't take a long time, it's not hardcore and someone will make fun of your failure at life.  Also, it all matters as long as you are getting better at killing.  Oh, the sweet, sweet killing... like what you'll find in Square-Enix's astounding online fantasy game, Final Fantasy XI!  With Retsyn!

Assume much? Is it I, or are the mods on here clueless? Let me guess...

Back in EQ, there were people that instead of saying "congratz" they would say "I would have that gear, but i got a life"... the truth is, you didnt get that gear because you sucked. WoW is fucken fly paper for those that suck... period. You couldnt be uber in FFXI? got stuck? hey goto wow...

But please for the love of god, you people need to stop with the BS "complain about grind" posts... everytime you people do that, you prove that your a fucktard.

[Venkman]

Every time I think you're ready to take seriously, you go ahead and make some dumbass post like that. Are you trying to have a serious conversation here or are you just pushing for a ban and measuring how long it takes. We want serious conversation here, which is why we keep trying. But part of that is understanding there are many points of view. You are not right. Neither are you wrong. If you're not mature enough to understand that, go yell on some other soapbox.

But to try and have a serious discussion again:

"Suck" and "don't have the time" are two different things. This is the only genre where in the early days Time almost guaranteed success. That does not make you a better gamer. That does not make you a better player. The only way to balance Time is to have more of it. Some can, by reducing real world commitments. Some don't think that's worth it. But they try anyway. And you know what? WoW came out and clocked everyone else because they recognized there are way-the-eff many more people out there who want to play these games without such strict time requirements than ubers like yourself who think everyone else should be less fortunate than yourself.

[grunk]

Every time I think you're ready to take seriously, you go ahead and make some dumbass post like that. Are you trying to have a serious conversation here or are you just pushing for a ban and measuring how long it takes. We want serious conversation here, which is why we keep trying. But part of that is understanding there are many points of view. You are not right. Neither are you wrong. If you're not mature enough to understand that, go yell on some other soapbox.

But to try and have a serious discussion again:

"Suck" and "don't have the time" are two different things. This is the only genre where in the early days Time almost guaranteed success. That does not make you a better gamer. That does not make you a better player. The only way to balance Time is to have more of it. Some can, by reducing real world commitments. Some don't think that's worth it. But they try anyway. And you know what? WoW came out and clocked everyone else because they recognized there are way-the-eff many more people out there who want to play these games without such strict time requirements than ubers like yourself who think everyone else should be less fortunate than yourself.

The issue is simple. You people take every chance you get, to run up to the highest mountain and scream.

"WOW IS THE GREATEST GAME EVER MADE! EVERY GAME SHOULD BE JUST LIKE IT!"

It doesnt matter how how many rolls Blizzard puts on the rung, WoW is still shit.
Why is that? why is it, I am one thats insulted on this board. Thats a fact. Everytime I try to talk, someone injects some jack ass comment.

[bhodi]

It doesnt matter how how many rolls Blizzard puts on the rung, WoW is still shit.
Why is that? why is it, I am one thats insulted on this board. Thats a fact. Everytime I try to talk, someone injects some jack ass comment.

No, you fucktard, that's an OPINION.

[Slayerik]

The issue is simple. You people take every chance you get, to run up to the highest mountain and scream.

"WOW IS THE GREATEST GAME EVER MADE! EVERY GAME SHOULD BE JUST LIKE IT!"

It doesnt matter how how many rolls Blizzard puts on the rung, WoW is still shit.
Why is that? why is it, I am one thats insulted on this board. Thats a fact. Everytime I try to talk, someone injects some jack ass comment.

You sir, win.

How could there possibly be any retort to your flawless logic? Lets go over some commonly accepted facts around here.

WoW is a -good- game. It was able to reach the masses and addict a lot of new blood to our genre. WoW is not a great game due to some flaws.

WoW's raiding is not for everyone. WoW's leveling is not soul crushing. WoW is not innovative. WoW is polished and (mostly) fun for casuals and hardcore.

Blizzard makes good games.


Your trolling and non-stop FFXI fanboism is starting to get (even more) laughable.

[Venkman]

Why is that? why is it, I am one thats insulted on this board. Thats a fact. Everytime I try to talk, someone injects some jack ass comment.

You're confused. You're not talking nor conversing. You don't have any interest in anyone else's opinion. You seem to be hear merely to yell your own. If that's not the case, and you actually want to have a conversation about why people disagree with you, then you need to do a better job of getting our opinions. If you do that you'll find a) most people in the general MMOG discussion forum are not raging WoW fanbois; and, b) most of us have been there and done that in ways you still need to.

But if all you want to do is try and get us to agree to your opinion, you're in the wrong place. We've been there countless times before, back from the days of real vitriol.

[tmp]

My take on the losing was that people who read that entire post lost, not grunk.

I read Prokofy Neva's Second Thoughts sometimes. Grunk is small fry in comparison and absolutely coherent.

Even when he's out of meds and ragging on WoW again.