I suck at mage PvP - Please help!

[bhodi]

unless it supports your argument eh? like say... arena %s?

Psycho.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

noting hypocrisy isn't psychotic. but i get what your saying.

how can you say, popular doesn't = good, but more people play warriors so they = good and teh others = bad!

thats fucking stupid. You can't have it both ways.

[bhodi]

I haven't seen anyone this deliberately retarded since geldon. I'm not even going to answer that. I'm sure someone else will.

[Paelos]

so why are druids rogues and hunters all in the same boat in 5v5s? because people have found their optimum 5v5 and won't try anything else, because they've found their happy balance. Rogues and hunters are the top 2 played classes in the game, yet both can't find a group in 5v5 arena? does that mean rogues and hunters suck in arena? ... are you gonna say rogues suck in arena now too? christ you're brainless

Essentially, yes. What part of ass-end of the statistics is hard to grasp here? First of all, part of being the most overplayed class in the game means that people generally hate your class when it comes to putting together groups. Why? Because the odds are strong you're gonna get a retard due to overpopulation. The retards have to go somewhere, and they LOVE to go after solo-friendly classes.

Second, in a 5 man setup, getting the jump on someone with stealth isn't anywhere near as crushing as in a 2v2 setup. Stun-locking one person in 2v2 is great, because it creates a 2 on 1 situation. Doing it in a 5 man is pretty meaningless, because a warrior is gonna jump right up your ass and hamstring you, and a mage is gonna 2 shot you. Note how fast the popularity jumps up on rogues in 3v3 and even more in 2v2 arenas. It's huge, and it's due to that fact. If you look, the exact same thing happens with warlocks. The more people you put in the situation, they less popular they are.

Third, look at overall utility. Look at how certain classes ability to play will fit in well with any other combo. Warriors, Paladins, and Priests are the best examples of this. No matter what, if you're not carrying at least one of your team, you're an idiot. They are the building blocks of anything in WoW, raiding or PvP.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

I haven't seen anyone this deliberately retarded since geldon. I'm not even going to answer that. I'm sure someone else will.

because you don't have one. How can this be any clearer. You tell me Popularity doesnt = Good, but by the arena %s the low end = bad. What the fuck is the %s showing other than the POPULARITY of that class in ARENA? Moron.

[Morat20]

eh, once again, i've said my piece. i don't agree with you, i dont think you have a clue what you're talking about. you can think what you will. i dont care what the %'s say go load up arena and see how many hunters you run into. you just showed the top teams.

though i think its funny in the crusade to 'be right' you had to hunt down some numbers :D

You are an idiot. Not just a regular, run of the mill idiot, but a special and unique snowflake in the vast snow-covered mountains of idiocy that is the internet. First off, I didn't have to "hunt down" numbers -- they were linked in this thread long before you came along, spouting your idiocy.

Secondly, no one is saying there aren't a lot of Hunters in the arena. There are. Hunters are a popular class. We're saying that for the winning (top-ranked) teams, Hunters are by and far the least represented class. Hugely so. In direct opposition to their popularity.

What the fuck is the %s showing other than the POPULARITY of that class in ARENA

And this convinces me you're trolling. No one could actually be that fucking stupid. The Arena is a ladder system, we were pointing out top-ranked teams. Which means that "popularity" isn't even a factor.

Jesus.
Given the arena is a ladder system, there are only two reasons you don't find Hunters in the top teams -- either there are virtually no Hunters as skilled as those who play every other class, or there is a flaw in the class itself when it comes to arena play (or many flaws).

[Paelos]

I haven't seen anyone this deliberately retarded since geldon. I'm not even going to answer that. I'm sure someone else will.

because you don't have one. How can this be any clearer. You tell me Popularity doesnt = Good, but by the arena %s the low end = bad. What the fuck is the %s showing other than the POPULARITY of that class in ARENA? Moron.

Perhaps you missed or were unwilling to grasp that these the percentages of classes in the TOP TWENTY BEST TEAMS IN THE ARENA.

Not ALL THE FUCKING TEAMS EVER.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

i can't believe the blatant stupidity here. For the IQ impaired:

pop·u·lar·i·ty     [pop-yuh-lar-i-tee] –noun 1. the quality or fact of being popular. 
2. the favor of the general public or of a particular group of people

Because you narrowed the field to the top 20 teams doesn't change the fact you are only showing %s of the POPULARITY of a CLASS in those TOP 20 TEAMS.

I say again, how can you in one hand say popularity does not = good, and on one hand use that as the defining portion of your argument? i mean i don't even give a shit about hunters at this point but seriously, you fucking fail.

[Morat20]

i can't believe the blatant stupidity here. For the IQ impaired:

pop·u·lar·i·ty     [pop-yuh-lar-i-tee] –noun 1. the quality or fact of being popular. 
2. the favor of the general public or of a particular group of people

Because you narrowed the field to the top 20 teams doesn't change the fact you are only showing %s of the POPULARITY of a CLASS in those TOP 20 TEAMS.

I say again, how can you in one hand say popularity does not = good, and on one hand use that as the defining portion of your argument? i mean i don't even give a shit about hunters at this point but seriously, you fucking fail.

Those "top 20" didn't get to be top twenty by being popular, you stupid fuck, they got there by beating the shit out of every other team playing in the Arena.

So what exactly is WRONG with looking at the top 20 teams -- who are the top 20 by beating the shit out of everyone else in PvP, thus correctly earning the title "best team" -- and noting the motherfucking total absence of hunters in all three types of arena teams, and thus concluding "Huh, there must be a serious problem with hunters, for they are a popular class, yet are massively underrepresented in the winning PvP teams in all arena brackets!".

[Dren]

i can't believe the blatant stupidity here. For the IQ impaired:

pop·u·lar·i·ty     [pop-yuh-lar-i-tee] –noun 1. the quality or fact of being popular. 
2. the favor of the general public or of a particular group of people

Because you narrowed the field to the top 20 teams doesn't change the fact you are only showing %s of the POPULARITY of a CLASS in those TOP 20 TEAMS.

I say again, how can you in one hand say popularity does not = good, and on one hand use that as the defining portion of your argument? i mean i don't even give a shit about hunters at this point but seriously, you fucking fail.

For awhile I thought you were a troll, but I'm now seeing you actually believe what you're writing.

Amazing.

Top teams ===> Winners of matches
Popularity ===> Lots of hunters around.

If there are lots of hunters around yet they don't seem to be making it into the most "winningest" teams, hunters are not providing anything to those teams towards actually winning their matches.  Are you saying there is some kind of conspiracy going on that keeps Hunters out of the best groups or something?  Seriously, you make no sense.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

i can't believe the blatant stupidity here. For the IQ impaired:

pop·u·lar·i·ty     [pop-yuh-lar-i-tee] –noun 1. the quality or fact of being popular. 
2. the favor of the general public or of a particular group of people

Because you narrowed the field to the top 20 teams doesn't change the fact you are only showing %s of the POPULARITY of a CLASS in those TOP 20 TEAMS.

I say again, how can you in one hand say popularity does not = good, and on one hand use that as the defining portion of your argument? i mean i don't even give a shit about hunters at this point but seriously, you fucking fail.

Those "top 20" didn't get to be top twenty by being popular, you stupid fuck, they got there by beating the shit out of every other team playing in the Arena.

So what exactly is WRONG with looking at the top 20 teams -- who are the top 20 by beating the shit out of everyone else in PvP, thus correctly earning the title "best team" -- and noting the motherfucking total absence of hunters in all three types of arena teams, and thus concluding "Huh, there must be a serious problem with hunters, for they are a popular class, yet are massively underrepresented in the winning PvP teams in all arena brackets!".

lol 

[Paelos]

i can't believe the blatant stupidity here. For the IQ impaired:

pop·u·lar·i·ty     [pop-yuh-lar-i-tee] –noun 1. the quality or fact of being popular. 
2. the favor of the general public or of a particular group of people

Because you narrowed the field to the top 20 teams doesn't change the fact you are only showing %s of the POPULARITY of a CLASS in those TOP 20 TEAMS.

I say again, how can you in one hand say popularity does not = good, and on one hand use that as the defining portion of your argument? i mean i don't even give a shit about hunters at this point but seriously, you fucking fail.

Ok fine, since you seem to want to go this route, I'll explain to you why you aren't correct.

1 - There are THREE kinds of popularity at play here.
        A) The popularity of a class on the whole in the game (we'll call this overall popularity)
        B) The popularity of a class within the arena as a whole amongst all teams (we'll call this Total Arena popularity)
        C) The popularity of a class within the TOP 20 arena teams (we'll call this Top 20 popularity)

2 - If all things were equal and all classes were viable within the arena, all these popularity percentages should be the same.

3 - We know for a fact that Hunters makes up 16%, and are therefore the most popular class in Overall Popularity according to WoW Census.

4 - We assume that Hunters make up similar percentages close to, but not exactly 16% in Total Arena Popularity. We do not have this figure, so it can be debated, but most would agree that Hunters are involved in arena teams.

5 - Hunters come in dead last in the Top 20 popularity at numbers hovering between 2-5%.

6 - Even if we assume that Hunters make up only 10% of Total Arena Popularity, there is still a huge disparity between that and their Top 20 Popularity.

7 - Top 20 popularity is an indicator of which class makeups are the MOST SUCCESSFUL in the arenas. By definition these are the teams that are winning the most battles.

8 - Hunter percentages of that high a drop between Total Arena Popularity and Top 20 Popularity indicate that Hunters are not deemed worthwhile to have in the high ranking teams.

9 - Therefore, hunters are not the best choice for an arena team that wants be the most successful.

[Morat20]

lol 

Finally, a rebuttal in line with your intellect. At this point, I think smiley-faces are about the most coherent argument you can muster.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

nah its just funny to see you all  and im more like 

[Morat20]

nah its just funny to see you all  and im more like 

So, no arguments then?

I do see you're a fan of the "Pretend you were just trolling after getting your stupid opinion curb-stomped" method of internet debate. Your mistake is in thinking this is the first time we've seen this.

[Paelos]

nah its just funny to see you all  and im more like 

So, no arguments then?

I do see you're a fan of the "Pretend you were just trolling after getting your stupid opinion curb-stomped" method of internet debate. Your mistake is in thinking this is the first time we've seen this.

We should send him to the politics forum. They shoot to kill there. Funny part is, even trolling for real makes you look retarded unless you are doing it for comic effect. This wasn't even funny.

[Morat20]

We should send him to the politics forum. They shoot to kill there. Funny part is, even trolling for real makes you look retarded unless you are doing it for comic effect. This wasn't even funny.

Nah, we'd make him cry over there.

But it was pretty obvious he was shooting from the hip, got caught, didn't want to admit he fucked up, then sort of rolled around being a douche. Pulled the same shit in an EVE thread.

[Arthur_Parker]

I like him (followed him here from the eve thread), it's like his browser found this site by accident and he's stuck here until he accidentally clicks a link to somewhere else.

[cmlancas]

We should send him to the politics forum. They shoot to kill there. Funny part is, even trolling for real makes you look retarded unless you are doing it for comic effect. This wasn't even funny.

Nah, we'd make him cry over there.

But it was pretty obvious he was shooting from the hip, got caught, didn't want to admit he fucked up, then sort of rolled around being a douche. Pulled the same shit in an EVE thread.

They broke Lum's will there. I really think that DDA might kill himself if he went to that forum.

On another note, is there a lot of PVP action to be had at the lower levels? I kinda want to get back into WoW so I can do battlegrounds and arena matches, but I don't want to have to grind to 70 to participate. Anyone have some info? (I haven't played since 2005).

[Fordel]

What do you mean by PvP action?

The Low level BG brackets are twink dominated. They can be amusing if you have your own twink, pointless otherwise. World PvP on PvP servers as far as I know, consists of a level 70 ganking you in STV because he can. On PVE servers, about once a month someone decides to kill westfall NPCs which in turn causes a crossroads raid.

That's about it.

[cmlancas]

That sucks. The second part of your post is the same as it always has been, but the first part really makes me not want to play again. 20-30 BGs used to remind me of DotA in WSG.

[Train Wreck]

Spell Steal (Or Steal Spell, whatever the hell it's called) works well on priests and frost mages when they shield up, or for collecting good buffs in general, especially the priests' Fort that they almost always have.

I recently realized this one.  It's like a poor man's purge, except you get the buff! (and you have to cast it a few times)

Yeah, and the various classes' armor buffs are nice to collect because they all stack.  You can also get some pretty fancy buffs from NPCs that people aren't even aware of unless they love to cast detect magic on everything.  There is a particular blood elf in one of Netherstorm's mana forges that has something called Fiery Intellect (I think) that also bestows +70 fire damage.

[SurfD]

yeah, the terribly sad part is that spellsteal only lasts for 2 minutes, and costs about 5x the mana of a purge, so stealing NPC buffs is generally not all that usefull (unless you are pulling off shit like that one mage back when the fire shield from the AV Kobolds stacked and was effected by +spelldamage,  that vid of him running around ganking entire 20 man alliance teams with 2000 damage fire shield ticks was hilarious)

[Chenghiz]

Hi.

I really lost track of who was arguing what, but darkangel I think you are using anecdotal evidence to contradict statisical facts. Talk to someone who plays in high-ranked arenas and you'll find that their anecdotal evidence supports the fact the hunters lack the synergy, staying power, and mechanics that make a character an asset in arena battles. Other less popular classes have other problems that manifest themselves in the statistics differently. Rogues, for instance, start strongly and lose their steam after they blow cooldowns, which is why they are not as popular in the long 5v5 battles, but more so in smaller 2v2 and 3v3 games.

The vast majority of people play arenas at a low level, and by low I mean under 1800. At those points the gear differences that make hunters largely ineffectual are not present, and you'll find people complaining about how, for instance, BM pets really mess up their day. To a well-geared caster, a BM hunter's pet is a joke. Sans pet, a hunter is essentially a mage with more armor, less burst damage, and less escape and survivability options. No wonder they aren't as popular!

[Valmorian]

nah its just funny to see you all  and im more like 

I guess ignorance really IS bliss.  You can't even see that people are frustrated at your inability to comprehend, not because you're "right".  You're very very wrong here, and it's painful to watch you parade around like you've figured out some sort of secret. 

[Ironwood]

yeah, the terribly sad part is that spellsteal only lasts for 2 minutes, and costs about 5x the mana of a purge, so stealing NPC buffs is generally not all that usefull (unless you are pulling off shit like that one mage back when the fire shield from the AV Kobolds stacked and was effected by +spelldamage,  that vid of him running around ganking entire 20 man alliance teams with 2000 damage fire shield ticks was hilarious)

That's awesome.  Just reading that made me giggle myself silly.  A youtube link would complete my day.

[SurfD]

Wasnt quite as high on an individual fireshield tick, but pretty impressive none the less (it can crit too, i'm pretty sure)

http://www.zannel.com/viewer.jsp?title=IRRL52N115

The scenes with him killing people while iceblocked or just chasing them down while mounted were priceless.

[Ironwood]

I repeat :  That's awesome.  Cheers for the link.

What a giggle.

[stark]

I guess hunters could call these guys to improve their arena rankings.

[Train Wreck]

Spell Steal (Or Steal Spell, whatever the hell it's called) works well on priests and frost mages when they shield up, or for collecting good buffs in general, especially the priests' Fort that they almost always have.

I recently realized this one.  It's like a poor man's purge, except you get the buff! (and you have to cast it a few times)

Yeah, and the various classes' armor buffs are nice to collect because they all stack.  You can also get some pretty fancy buffs from NPCs that people aren't even aware of unless they love to cast detect magic on everything.  There is a particular blood elf in one of Netherstorm's mana forges that has something called Fiery Intellect (I think) that also bestows +70 fire damage.

Spamming StealSpell is a bad idea because of the mana but using it once or twice in a fight isn't going to hurt your mana pool much.  Of course using it when they can purge or dispell is wasteful unless you're using it for the same purpose.

[Merusk]

Since we're tossing all kinds of PvP stuff in here.

You'll need a 1900 or better rating to buy season 3 weapons  I don't know if that applies to equip AND weapons, or just weapons.

Suxorz for casuals!

[Threash]

They mentioned adding a rating requirement to purchase weapons because unlike armor the weapons are just as good for pve as pvp, but the 1900 number was completely pulled out of someones ass.

[pxib]

That sucks. The second part of your post is the same as it always has been, but the first part really makes me not want to play again. 20-30 BGs used to remind me of DotA in WSG.

Well to bring things vaguely back to topic, I can recommend playing an untwinked mage at level 29. You won't be able to kill anybody, but you'll be a total CC beast, and if you concentrate on escaping you'll stay alive and drive the enemy mad. Get some nice gear first (won't need expensive enchantments... just some quality greens and maybe a few instance runs) and your whole team will love you.

[Threash]

Oh wow how did i miss the hunter fight! i havent been this entertained for a long time.  Heres my opinion as a hunter in a 1905 rating team: might as well rename my class "frost trap + entrapment" because that is the only reason any team wants me.  I can keep up in dps with the dps classes as long as people let me stand in place and dps, which is rare against good teams, and if i dont mind going oom in the first minute of the fight from spamming multi and arcane shots.  I can help mana drain if i have a scorpion pet, but my mana drain is a joke compared to other classes, but when you are trying to drain the healers as fast as possible every bit helps i guess.  The only reason i have a decent team is because a) i made it with friends and b) i already had extremely good gear (12k hps unbuffed and 402 resil will open a few doors for you no matter your class), but theres no doubt that my team would be much higher ranked if they had a shaman or a mage or a warlock in my place.

[Fordel]

My Moonkin is only at 9k HP and 280ish resilience :( , 54% DR on armor though! I'll break 300 resilience once I get my arena pants.