I suck at mage PvP - Please help!

[Merusk]

Are we talking high rankings and being competitive here or 'what those of us on this board will be up against with our team of buddies'?

Yeah, hunters suck very quickly if you start to rank up.  That's been covered.  However, if your there to enjoy yourself and get some pvp gear, then it's a different discussion, and the one I thought I was partaking in.  You want to 'be competitive' then you're going to be leaving a bunch of classes & specs out.  Since there's nothing to gain but e-peen I don't see the point.

[Fordel]

I was talking about overall effectiveness of the class in the Arena and PvP in general.

If we are discussing what we do for shits and giggles in PvP, I'll regale everyone with tales of my guilds 5v5 team consisting of and not limited to, A Balance Druid, A Protection Warrior, A half dozen Fire/Arcane mages with all of 6k HP and one desperate Holy Paladin doing her best to keep us alive. We really rock out the 1400's  :-D

[Merusk]

I was talking about overall effectiveness of the class in the Arena and PvP in general.

If we are discussing what we do for shits and giggles in PvP, I'll regale everyone with tales of my guilds 5v5 team consisting of and not limited to, A Balance Druid, A Protection Warrior, A half dozen Fire/Arcane mages with all of 6k HP and one desperate Holy Paladin doing her best to keep us alive. We really rock out the 1400's  :-D

Please do.  It's much more interesting than theorycrafting and pointing out all the flaws in the pvp system due to pve stuff. (And lord are there tons.)

[Zetor]

Well, 2v2 is pretty much a gimmick-fest. Someone on my battlegroup did a quick count of the class distribution, and warlock+healer [or warlock+dps] completely dominates. There are a few odd combos too, like warlock+moonkin. 2v2 is either dot-and-outlast [which beats most teams in the current metagame] or something like frostmage+rogue where you have to rely on perfect CC to get the job done.

I can tell stories of my guild's 5v5 team too, consisting of a pve-spec holy priest [only healer, no pain suppression or blessed resilience], two pve-spec mages [squish squish], an MS warrior and a feral drood. Surprisingly, we broke 1650 with that team once in season 1, but otherwise we seem to hover in the 1500s. That's not too bad, considering only two people in our entire guild pvp. :P

3v3 seems to be a bit more balanced, with the gimmick teams being warrior+healer+pally and mana drain teams ie. warlock+priest+pally (carried over to 5v5 it'd be warlock+priest+drood+hunter+pally). I think a lot of the complaints would go away if drains started obeying LOS.


-- Z.

[Fordel]

The 5v5 incarnation is more likely to have a elemental/resto shaman then a druid.




One of my guilds more amusing and bizarre matches went roughly like this. Our team was BalanceDruid, HolyPaladin, ProtWarrior, IceMage and FireMage. The enemy team was a HolyPaladin, ArmsWarrior, HealingNE (Druid or priest, I honestly don't remember), FireMage and SubtletyRogue.

The match was in the Nagrand Arena, with the four pillars and the open middle. Started off with a feeling out period, neither side wanted to leave the safety of their respective pillar spot, so the first minute or so, was me scouting their position and their rogue doing the same to us. Finally we go "screw it!" and charge across and our opponents had the exact same idea! The first 2.5 seconds of the fight go by and their NightElf Healer gets Pyrosploded all across the arena by our mages, she had no more then 6k HP, probably less. The next 4.5 seconds of the fight have our Gnome FireMage get insta gibbed by their rogue and ArmsWarrior. In the same amount of time passed, our Prot warrior is unsheepd by our paladin making their paladin curse shield bash, shield slam and concussive blow.

By this time, I've crossed the field in stealth to their FireMage and Pounce, Rake, Maim, Cyclone, Root, Tree (41 point balance talent) DoT, DoT, Nuke, Nuke, Dead Mage all the while he was blowing his cooldowns and escape tools in order to assist attempting to kill our frost mage, who in Turn IceBlocked with maybe seven HP left. At that moment I instantly became the target of the Warrior+Rogue train and shifted into Moonkin and Barkskinned, which allowed our Paladin to heal me, but caused our mage to come out of block with no healing and was holy shocked by their paladin and died.

So now it's Moonkin, ProtWarrior and Running Low on Mana HolyPaladin, against ArmsWarrior, SubRogue and Also fairly low on mana Holypaladin. So with both the warrior and the rogue beating on me, casting is futile between pushback and their interrupts, Shifting out is suicide, I'd lose my armor bonus, which is the only thing keeping me almost alive. So it's down to my instant spells available in moonkin. First thing I pop is Nature's Grasp, which luckily procs on the warrior and I move out of his range. I try to cast a cyclone on the rogue, but that is promptly kicked and 90% of my spells are now temporarily locked out. So what do I have left?

MoonFire!  :-D

I spam my moonfire button for all it's worth, spam it till my other spells unlock, then I apply my InsectSwarm (DoT) and FarieFire (prevents stealth). The Rogue is taking lots of damage, far more then he or their paladin expected. He Cloak of Shadows himself, but I get lucky and beat the odds to reapply my DoTs again. Our Paladin is healing unmolested while their paladin is only getting half his heals off thanks to our ProtWarrior. It's a strange, lopsided DPS race, one that I'm winning, I have the rogue within a sliver of life, a tiny spec, then BAM, the warrior's root wore off and he intercepts me, which stuns me, saving their rogue and dropping me from the fight.

So now it's a ArmsWarrior, HolyPaladin nearly OOM and a JustAboutGoingToDie Rogue vs. A ProtWarrior and Practically OOM HolyPaladin. Game Over... 


Or not! The Rogue in his haste and eagerness for the kill, neglects to actually bandage himself before charge into our Paladin, so he promptly gets holyshocked and dies. Now it's all down to Warriors and Paladins. At this point in the fight, both paladins have exhausted nearly all of their mana, we are talking waiting on mana5 to regen enough to cast a Flash of Light out of mana. So it's a DPS race, with the paladins adding their awesome auto attack DPS to the mix. Slowly, very slowly, both sides paladins are starting to die. It's looking very bad for our team, the ArmsWarrior is just outclassing our Protwarrior in DPS, and then, doom their paladin uses avenging wrath. Our Paladin dies, her last act is tossing Blessing of Freedom on our warrior. She lost the battle, but won the war.

Now, this part, you may not believe, I hardly believe it myself and I was watching it as it happened. The Last BoF on our warrior, was vital, it allowed our warrior to ignore their warriors hamstring, and hamstring their paladin in turn. Their paladin BoF'd himself, but it was removed by ShieldSlam and he was hamstrung again. He was slowly being whittled away by our warrior, it was absurd. He was actually dieing somehow. All the while their arms warrior is attacking furiously against our ProtWarrior, but to no great effect. Our warrior was in his full PvE tanking gear, and had all his defensive cooldowns to burn. The ArmsWarriors attacks only served to give our ProtWarrior unlimited rage! The paladin regens enough mana for a heal, but it's interrupted by a shield bash, Six seconds without healing. The Paladin's reaction once his spells were unlocked was to stun our Warrior. It backfires! Our warrior had anticipated this move and had spell reflect up. Six more seconds of no healing. The paladin tries to heal again, bashed. Precious moments without healing. Then the Paladins BoF is refreshed and he runs away to heal, but he fails to attain a LoS block and is promptly intercepted by a stance dancing protection warrior. Another costly interrupt, and lots of distance closed by our warrior, who shield slams BoF away again. The paladin is nearly dead, he can't run anymore, he has no cooldowns to use, his last desperate act is to HolyShock his warrior, to top it off, then is promptly executed, dead.

No one can believe this match is still going. Least of all the two warriors left in the ring. Now we have a Full Health ArmsWarrior against a Half Health Prot warrior. NOW it's game over, right? There is no possible way for our side to win now... is there? I knew different though, so did our warrior. Earlier in the day, before we started our Arena matches for the week, Our warrior and I were doing some spell reflect tests with my paladin in front of IF. Of course, Duels in front of IF draw a little crowd, and soon enough, other warriors wanted to duel our Prot warrior, most Fury and Arms warriors. Time and again, our warrior has dueled DPS warriors and time and again he has won, usually handily and without difficulty.

Ironically (well perhaps not true irony) the most demanded and arguably overpowered spec for Arena/PvP play is countered and defeated by arguably the least used Arena/PvP spec in play.

It was a duel, nothing more. Just another Warrior vs Warrior duel. One that our warrior was going to win... it was only a matter of time. Their warrior is unleashing every cooldown he hasn't spent. Using every burst combo he knew. He gets no where, our warrior just has to much physical mitigation and avoidance. All the Arms warrior is doing is supply rage, which our warrior is using quite effectively. Ignoring conventional wisdom, our warrior is dueling in defensive stance, he's stacked a full set of sunders and is now DPSing with Devestate and ShieldSlam. The effect of the full sunder stack, combined with the arms warrior in berserk stance, is causing our warrior to slowly, but surely win this DPS race. The Arms warriors can see what's happening, but doesn't know what to do, he tries to hamstring kite to bandage, but is merely interrupted by a thrown weapon. He tries to go defensive and emulate our warriors tactics, but doesn't have the gear nor the talents for it. Paper cut, after Paper cut, their warrior is dieing. In one final push, our warrior Concussive blows, Shield Slams, stance dances and Executes!


We Win!

So ends Fordel's overly dramatic tale from the 1400's, tune in next week, same scrub time, same scrub channel!  (I apologize for any grammar and spelling mistakes  )

[Jayce]

Thanks Fordel. That's one of the most fun and interesting stories I've read in a while.

edit to add thoughts:  That Protection warrior was really on the ball.  I don't know that I would have had the presence of mind to put spell reflect up in particular, and also it seems like he was using his shield bash nearly everytime the timer expired.  At the same time he's tanking an angry fly (Arms warrior) and burning defensive cooldowns.

He gets the MVP award in my book.

[Chimpy]

Protection warriors with good gear were always great to have in PvP. People always tend to focus fire on the warriors because MS and Fury are usually made of paper and drop fast, since protection warriors don't drop so fast the rest of your team can pick off the other team almost unmolested. Everyone just assumes that in PvP the warrior you are facing is a DPS spec. We always won 3-0 in WSG when our MT was our flag carrier.

[Fordel]

It's his own personal game in PvP, seeing what he can reflect back onto people. He used to play "Disarm the Arms warriors" but the talent changes removed that game   :-(

[Train Wreck]

Most of the points have already been touched upon.  You should almost always open with sheep to avoid them running out of range during a cast, even if they aren't aware of you.  It's also a good time to bandage if they got the jump on you.

Sheep also works as a good interrupt when your CS is in cooldown, especially in group pvp.

Spell Steal (Or Steal Spell, whatever the hell it's called) works well on priests and frost mages when they shield up, or for collecting good buffs in general, especially the priests' Fort that they almost always have.

[Jayce]

Spell Steal (Or Steal Spell, whatever the hell it's called) works well on priests and frost mages when they shield up, or for collecting good buffs in general, especially the priests' Fort that they almost always have.

I recently realized this one.  It's like a poor man's purge, except you get the buff! (and you have to cast it a few times)

[Drifting DarkAngel]

im not sure why the thread derailed for a bit into hunters suck at arena or whatnot, but i don't find its nearly the case people make it out to be. theorycrafting about how people abuse LOS blah sounds bad for a hunter on paper but theres really not alot of arena's this is a huge problem in. Probably just blades edge. before the trinket patch, survival hunters could cc me for well over a minute combining wyvern sting as the trap wore off and then retrapping me, it was maddening to say the least.

BM hunters pretty much destroy everything except tanks, even tanks have serious trouble with them due to the fact you can't snare them at all, and LOS isn't a huge issue, the pet alone will devastate anyone in leather or lower while they are tryin to stay out of LOS.

So, I flat out disagree that hunters aren't that great anymore, they still wtfpwn people's faces if played well and specced well. And geared out hunters are insane I have a hunter who has some of the pvp nonset epics and mostly  70 dungeon blues, and i ran into a arena season 1 hunter (not even season 2 gear) and he 3 shot me. (i have 7.7k hp) with a few autoshots in there. So if someone around ~8k hp and mail armor gets 3 shotted by a geared hunter i shudder to think what that guy does to clothies, geared or not.


happy ironwood?

[Ironwood]

Protection warriors with good gear were always great to have in PvP. People always tend to focus fire on the warriors because MS and Fury are usually made of paper and drop fast, since protection warriors don't drop so fast the rest of your team can pick off the other team almost unmolested. Everyone just assumes that in PvP the warrior you are facing is a DPS spec. We always won 3-0 in WSG when our MT was our flag carrier.

Couple of times I played, Shield Reflecting that instant cast pyroblast was always funny.  You know it's going to be the follow up spell to the crappy fireball that just hit you, so the shield goes up and the poor fool murdalises himself.

Also, Paragraphing is your friend young Angel.  Drawing breath also.

[Morat20]

im not sure why the thread derailed for a bit into hunters suck at arena or whatnot, but i don't find its nearly the case people make it out to be. theorycrafting about how people abuse LOS blah sounds bad for a hunter on paper but theres really not alot of arena's this is a huge problem in. Probably just blades edge. before the trinket patch, survival hunters could cc me for well over a minute combining wyvern sting as the trap wore off and then retrapping me, it was maddening to say the least.

BM hunters pretty much destroy everything except tanks, even tanks have serious trouble with them due to the fact you can't snare them at all, and LOS isn't a huge issue, the pet alone will devastate anyone in leather or lower while they are tryin to stay out of LOS.

So, I flat out disagree that hunters aren't that great anymore, they still wtfpwn people's faces if played well and specced well. And geared out hunters are insane I have a hunter who has some of the pvp nonset epics and mostly  70 dungeon blues, and i ran into a arena season 1 hunter (not even season 2 gear) and he 3 shot me. (i have 7.7k hp) with a few autoshots in there. So if someone around ~8k hp and mail armor gets 3 shotted by a geared hunter i shudder to think what that guy does to clothies, geared or not.


happy ironwood?

So that's why hunters are so well represented in 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 games? What, they're not? In fact, Hunters are the least played class in 2v2 and 3v3, and barely hanging on to "third least played" in 5v5?

Quite the condundrum. Either you're wrong, or there's not more 5 good Hunters total out of the 9 million WoW players. I think I'm going to go with "You're wrong".

Actually, I can point out the problems with your theorycrafting pretty easy -- you're wrong on LOS (it's a huge problem), you're wrong on CC (survival hunters have a bit more look but their DPS is nothing), damage isn't nearly as high as it is with any other DPS class, and even clothies can ignore the pets (unless TBW is off) because resiliance means that the pets hit for shit and the hunters hit for shit.

In short, if you're being owned by Hunters in the arena -- you suck.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

lol. you answered your own question. most hunters suck. most people roll hunters expecting easy mode. and it is untill you face competetive pvp. I play a 70 hunter, LOS problems were simply NOT a real problem except on blades edge. what are they gonna do? hide behind a pillar in nagrand while my pet humps their leg? oh no! or how bout that new arena, its mostly wide open space. zero LOS issues. LOS only becomes a problem in blades edge vs good teams who can abuse it, but the fact of the matter is people abusing LOS can't do much because then YOU are out of LOS as well, and if they want to hide you can let your pet play with them till they decide to do something, i mean i really ran into few instances were THAT was the real issue. they aren't played much in arena for other reasons really, their main cc took a huge nerf because it went from un trinketable to trinketable, and now the cooldown rapes them hard. they also dont withstand focus fire well, they dont have really high hp or armor in most cases. Just because they aren't top dog in an arena doesn't mean they suck at it. Most hunters are in BG's enjoying LOLZmode, but that doesn't mean a skilled hunter isn't a force to be reckoned with in 2v2 3v3 or 5v5.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

im not sure why the thread derailed for a bit into hunters suck at arena or whatnot, but i don't find its nearly the case people make it out to be. theorycrafting about how people abuse LOS blah sounds bad for a hunter on paper but theres really not alot of arena's this is a huge problem in. Probably just blades edge. before the trinket patch, survival hunters could cc me for well over a minute combining wyvern sting as the trap wore off and then retrapping me, it was maddening to say the least.

BM hunters pretty much destroy everything except tanks, even tanks have serious trouble with them due to the fact you can't snare them at all, and LOS isn't a huge issue, the pet alone will devastate anyone in leather or lower while they are tryin to stay out of LOS.

So, I flat out disagree that hunters aren't that great anymore, they still wtfpwn people's faces if played well and specced well. And geared out hunters are insane I have a hunter who has some of the pvp nonset epics and mostly  70 dungeon blues, and i ran into a arena season 1 hunter (not even season 2 gear) and he 3 shot me. (i have 7.7k hp) with a few autoshots in there. So if someone around ~8k hp and mail armor gets 3 shotted by a geared hunter i shudder to think what that guy does to clothies, geared or not.


happy ironwood?

So that's why hunters are so well represented in 2v2, 3v3, and 5v5 games? What, they're not? In fact, Hunters are the least played class in 2v2 and 3v3, and barely hanging on to "third least played" in 5v5?

Quite the condundrum. Either you're wrong, or there's not more 5 good Hunters total out of the 9 million WoW players. I think I'm going to go with "You're wrong".

Actually, I can point out the problems with your theorycrafting pretty easy -- you're wrong on LOS (it's a huge problem), you're wrong on CC (survival hunters have a bit more look but their DPS is nothing), damage isn't nearly as high as it is with any other DPS class, and even clothies can ignore the pets (unless TBW is off) because resiliance means that the pets hit for shit and the hunters hit for shit.

In short, if you're being owned by Hunters in the arena -- you suck.

and you know this how? maybe in the 2k+ range that may be the case, however most of my low to mid rated teams ran into PLENTY of hunters.

[Morat20]

and you know this how? maybe in the 2k+ range that may be the case, however most of my low to mid rated teams ran into PLENTY of hunters.

You're not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer now, are you?  You realize that you just made my point there for me, right?

[Drifting DarkAngel]

and you know this how? maybe in the 2k+ range that may be the case, however most of my low to mid rated teams ran into PLENTY of hunters.

You're not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer now, are you?  You realize that you just made my point there for me, right?

yes, because top tier teams wont take hunters based on theorycrafting MUST mean Hunters suck in arena. Sure. I completely made your point that hunters aren't represented in 2v2 3v3 or 5v5 when they are all over the place. you obviously don't know anything about the arena and need to sit down and do some research before you flame me again. Most top tier teams go for cookie cutter setups (holy pally/ms war) and such.

[Morat20]

and you know this how? maybe in the 2k+ range that may be the case, however most of my low to mid rated teams ran into PLENTY of hunters.

You're not exactly the sharpest knife in the drawer now, are you?  You realize that you just made my point there for me, right?

yes, because top tier teams wont take hunters based on theorycrafting MUST mean Hunters suck in arena. Sure. I completely made your point that hunters aren't represented in 2v2 3v3 or 5v5 when they are all over the place. you obviously don't know anything about the arena and need to sit down and do some research before you flame me again. Most top tier teams go for cookie cutter setups (holy pally/ms war) and such.

Oh, you're right. I did fail to specify "TOP teams" when referring to you, mostly since you claim to have read the thread and that's what we were talking about. Jeez, isn't this the second time you've come busting into a thread only to show you hadn't actually read shit in it?

 I do love your assumption that "Top teams just don't take hunters based on theorycrafting". Do you even know how a ladder works? If teams with Hunters on them were good, they'd rise to the top.

So once more we're back to an undeniable fact -- teams with Hunters on them just can't seem to get to the top. Why would that be?

As for flaming you -- fuck, man, I haven't flamed you. If I had, I'd have to wait a week until you stopped crying before we could continue.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

eh i said my piece, and i know who's right. as for "entering a thread without reading shit" go fuck yourself, this is the third time THIS thread you've said complete theorycrafted garbage, you obviously have played wow minimally and with little experience, know shit about the game, the arena, and hunters in general, which apparently qualifies you to be the fucking expert, so keep your theories, i could care less, you are just echoing stuff you've heard without applying your (albeit obviously small) brain to the issue. i'm done here. hunters are fine in arena.

[Morat20]

eh i said my piece, and i know who's right. as for "entering a thread without reading shit" go fuck yourself, this is the third time THIS thread you've said complete theorycrafted garbage, you obviously have played wow minimally and with little experience, know shit about the game, the arena, and hunters in general, which apparently qualifies you to be the fucking expert, so keep your theories, i could care less, you are just echoing stuff you've heard without applying your (albeit obviously small) brain to the issue. i'm done here. hunters are fine in arena.

Right. They're doing fine in the arena, as long as by "fine" you mean "Not on any top-ranked teams". Which isn't based on "theorycrafting" but on a simple head-count of the top-ranked Arena teams.

That is the nice thing about ladder games. "Top ranked" is pretty easy to determine. There's not subjectivity on who is better. There's just that little number next to their team name. Then all you have to do is count.

You can count, right?

[Drifting DarkAngel]

Sigh once again. this Time it will be colored, bolded and capitalized so you can actually read it.

HUNTERS ARENT IN THE COOKIE CUTTER TOP TEAMS DOES NOT MEAN THEY SUCK IN ARENA THEY ARE JUST NOT THE BEST! THERE ARE MORE THAN JUST HUNTERS MISSING FROM THOSE LINEUPS

there, maybe you'll read that.

think of it this way, the max team size is 5. there is 8 classes. eventually theres only gonna be the same 5 or so classes in the top 5v5s because people will figure out the best 5 class combo's. its fucking simple as that for christ's sake. sure there will be variations, but because a few classes are left out doesn't mean they "suck" in the arena, just that they aren't "the best", which reinforces my point: hunters are FINE in arena.

[Morat20]

Sigh once again. this Time it will be colored, bolded and capitalized so you can actually read it.

HUNTERS ARENT IN THE COOKIE CUTTER TOP TEAMS DOES NOT MEAN THEY SUCK IN ARENA THEY ARE JUST NOT THE BEST! THERE ARE MORE THAN JUST HUNTERS MISSING FROM THOSE LINEUPS

there, maybe you'll read that.

think of it this way, the max team size is 5. there is 8 classes. eventually theres only gonna be the same 5 or so classes in the top 5v5s because people will figure out the best 5 class combo's. its fucking simple as that for christ's sake. sure there will be variations, but because a few classes are left out doesn't mean they "suck" in the arena, just that they aren't "the best", which reinforces my point: hunters are FINE in arena.

And they're not in the 2v2 and 3v3 teams. What do you call a class that can't seem to compete on the top level in the Arena in any matchup? Oh yes -- "isn't competitive in the Arena". If hunters were 'fine' in the arena, the simple mechanics of a ladder would force them to the top in something vaguely close to their proportion among the population.

Goodness, it's like I've been making this point the entire time -- or maybe you really don't understand how a ladder works.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

Sigh once again. this Time it will be colored, bolded and capitalized so you can actually read it.

HUNTERS ARENT IN THE COOKIE CUTTER TOP TEAMS DOES NOT MEAN THEY SUCK IN ARENA THEY ARE JUST NOT THE BEST! THERE ARE MORE THAN JUST HUNTERS MISSING FROM THOSE LINEUPS

there, maybe you'll read that.

think of it this way, the max team size is 5. there is 8 classes. eventually theres only gonna be the same 5 or so classes in the top 5v5s because people will figure out the best 5 class combo's. its fucking simple as that for christ's sake. sure there will be variations, but because a few classes are left out doesn't mean they "suck" in the arena, just that they aren't "the best", which reinforces my point: hunters are FINE in arena.

And they're not in the 2v2 and 3v3 teams. What do you call a class that can't seem to compete on the top level in the Arena in any matchup? Oh yes -- "isn't competitive in the Arena". If hunters were 'fine' in the arena, the simple mechanics of a ladder would force them to the top in something vaguely close to their proportion among the population.

Goodness, it's like I've been making this point the entire time -- or maybe you really don't understand how a ladder works.

so that just means your point is that hunters aren't one of the top classes in arena. Sure ill concede that. Doesn't mean they suck. Look at the ladder some time you'll notice more than hunters missing from most of the top lineups. Doesn't mean those classes suck either (especially since it wouldnt be for a LOS issue now would it?) I know very well how a ladder works. Because a hunter/x class combo isn't good as another class/class combo doesn't mean that the hunter sucks in the arena. It just means it didnt match up well with x class. I can't look at the ladder right now but I know of several good hunters on extremely high ranked teams so I don't buy the "no hunters in top teams" bull either. Surely not the most popular class in the top teams but /shrug its like arguing with a brick wall, only you seem less intelligent.


I will concede one small point, my views may be somewhat skewed because I played in a 2on2 rogue/rogue team (for fun only) and we had the most trouble whenever an opposing team had a hunter, though we climbed high as 1870 once.

[Dren]

Is there a setting that allows me to get an email when slap-fights break out like this?  I missed the whole damned thing!

[Valmorian]

Is there a setting that allows me to get an email when slap-fights break out like this?  I missed the whole damned thing!

I know, it's quite funny.  I love how Darkangel calls Morat unintelligent, even though Morat is using an objective measurement, while he himself only relies upon his "personal experience".  It's a riot.

[Morat20]

so that just means your point is that hunters aren't one of the top classes in arena. Sure ill concede that. Doesn't mean they suck. Look at the ladder some time you'll notice more than hunters missing from most of the top lineups. Doesn't mean those classes suck either (especially since it wouldnt be for a LOS issue now would it?)

Hunters are dead last in 2v2 and 3v3 for representation among top teams. They barely make third to last in 5v5. In short, they are the LEAST represented class (by far, in fact) in small matchups and are at the rock bottom in 5v5.

That's pretty indicative that they suck in the arena. If it was just "No hunters in 2v2" I'd think you had a point. Go look up the numbers for the top 20 teams in each bracket. Hunters are a blip at the bottom, even for 5v5.

I know very well how a ladder works. Because a hunter/x class combo isn't good as another class/class combo doesn't mean that the hunter sucks in the arena. It just means it didnt match up well with x class. I can't look at the ladder right now but I know of several good hunters on extremely high ranked teams so I don't buy the "no hunters in top teams" bull either. Surely not the most popular class in the top teams but /shrug its like arguing with a brick wall, only you seem less intelligent.

You have anecdotes. I just went to Blizzard and checked on the top teams. Guess who wins? Me!

However, just to throw you a bone, for the top 20 Arena teams, here are the percentages:

5v5 Arenas

Paladin: 18%
Warrior: 18%
Priest: 14%
Shaman: 12%
Mage: 12%
Warlock: 11%
Rogue: 6%
Hunter: 5%
Druid: 4%

Goodness, second to last on 5v5 -- just beating out druids by a single percent. It's very interesting -- Hunters are one of the most popular classes, yet they make up five percent of the top rated 5v5 teams? A

3v3 Arenas

Warrior: 16%
Priest: 15%
Paladin: 15%
Warlock: 14%
Mage: 13%
Rogue: 12%
Shaman: 8%
Druid: 6%
Hunter: 2%

Wow. Not just dead last, but creamed by Druids. 3 Druids for every Hunter in the 3v3 bracket.

2v2 Arenas

Warlock: 21%
Priest: 15%
Paladin: 15%
Warrior: 14%
Rogue: 13%
Druid: 9%
Mage: 5%
Shaman: 5%
Hunter: 2%

2v2 -- you'd think here that "class skill" rather than "cookie cutter build" would be more paramount. Damn, look at that. Two percent. (I believe that represents a single Hunter, by the way).

Hunters have problems in the Arena. Otherwise they wouldn't be dead last, or effectively tied for dead last, among every top-tier team. A ladder system makes damn sure of that.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

think of it this way, the max team size is 5. there is 8 classes. eventually theres only gonna be the same 5 or so classes in the top 5v5s because people will figure out the best 5 class combo's.

5v5 Arenas

Paladin: 18%
Warrior: 18%
Priest: 14%
Shaman: 12%
Mage: 12%
Warlock: 11%
Rogue: 6%
Hunter: 5%
Druid: 4%

Thanks for proving me right.

[Morat20]

think of it this way, the max team size is 5. there is 8 classes. eventually theres only gonna be the same 5 or so classes in the top 5v5s because people will figure out the best 5 class combo's.

5v5 Arenas

Paladin: 18%
Warrior: 18%
Priest: 14%
Shaman: 12%
Mage: 12%
Warlock: 11%
Rogue: 6%
Hunter: 5%
Druid: 4%

Thanks for proving me right.

You've yet to actually show WHERE Hunters do well in the Arena. It's not 2v2, it's not 3v3. It's not 5v5. It's apparently only against you or in "low-ranking games".

So in short, Hunters do well when their opponents suck. What class doesn't?

Nor does that prove your point -- actual team breakdowns are instructive in 5v5, nor is 5v5 the end-all and be all of Arenas.

But keep trying. There was almost a point there.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

denial of truth doesn't make it go away ;)

[Drifting DarkAngel]

so why are druids rogues and hunters all in the same boat in 5v5s? because people have found their optimum 5v5 and won't try anything else, because they've found their happy balance. Rogues and hunters are the top 2 played classes in the game, yet both can't find a group in 5v5 arena? does that mean rogues and hunters suck in arena? ... are you gonna say rogues suck in arena now too? christ you're brainless

[bhodi]

so that just means your point is that hunters aren't one of the top classes in arena. Sure ill concede that. Doesn't mean they suck.

... are you gonna say rogues suck in arena now too? christ you're brainless

Yes, yes it does. That is sort of what ladder competition is. They suck in PvP, which is basically just arena now. And actually, rogues do suck in arena, all you have to do is look at the rankings to see they aren't one of the better classes.

[Morat20]

so why are druids rogues and hunters all in the same boat in 5v5s? because people have found their optimum 5v5 and won't try anything else, because they've found their happy balance. Rogues and hunters are the top 2 played classes in the game, yet both can't find a group in 5v5 arena? does that mean rogues and hunters suck in arena? ... are you gonna say rogues suck in arena now too? christ you're brainless

Why aren't Druids and Rogues in the same boat as Hunters in 2v2 and 3v3? Three times more Druids in 3v3, five times more in 2v2. Six times more Rogues in 2v2 and 3v3. What part of "Dead fucking last in all brackets" is lost on you?

Why are Hunters dead last in all three categories? Druids and Rogues aren't. Why are Hunters?

Dude, give it up. You're fucking wrong. You couldn't be more fucking wrong. Hell, this is a ladder tournament. If there wasn't an imbalance here, all classes would be represented more or less the same as their overall proportions. Every other class at least fluctuates depending on team size. Not Hunters. Dead last, dead last, and tied for dead last.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

eh, once again, i've said my piece. i don't agree with you, i dont think you have a clue what you're talking about. you can think what you will. i dont care what the %'s say go load up arena and see how many hunters you run into. you just showed the top teams.

though i think its funny in the crusade to 'be right' you had to hunt down some numbers :D

[bhodi]

eh, once again, i've said my piece. i don't agree with you, i dont think you have a clue what you're talking about. you can think what you will. i dont care what the %'s say go load up arena and see how many hunters you run into. you just showed the top teams.

That is the most retarded thing I have read today. Popular does not equal good. In fact, it indicates even more of an imbalance than the straight percentages would indicate, because you would expect them to be represented MORE on the ladder, seeing as how more people play them.

[Drifting DarkAngel]

eh, once again, i've said my piece. i don't agree with you, i dont think you have a clue what you're talking about. you can think what you will. i dont care what the %'s say go load up arena and see how many hunters you run into. you just showed the top teams.

That is the most retarded thing I have read today. Popular does not equal good. In fact, it indicates even more of an imbalance than the straight percentages would indicate, because you would expect them to be represented MORE on the ladder, seeing as how more people play them.

unless it supports your argument eh? like say... arena %s?