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Author Topic: Big Patch 2 (tm) on Test  (Read 9871 times)
eldaec
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on: September 01, 2004, 03:12:24 AM

Notes here:

http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=1228847&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1#1228847

Highlights:

Cloaks at lvl 20.

6 new zones.

New villians.

Badge system.

3 Respecs (powers, pools, and enh slots, not AT or power sets).

Reverse sidekicking.

Many continuing sound effects now fade.

Tutorial now optional.

Statistics kiosks now functioning.

Looking for team tool works across zones/instances.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
eldaec
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Reply #1 on: September 01, 2004, 03:24:11 AM

Also, early reports suggest mission rewards are now 3 to 5 times those on live servers, and missions have various spangly features added (doors, fires, defend-an-object missions, outdoor missions, labs giving off fumes that buff people in a specific area and so on).

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
schild
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Reply #2 on: September 01, 2004, 03:25:27 AM

Too little too late. :super frowny emoticon:
Murgos
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Reply #3 on: September 01, 2004, 04:57:27 AM

Quote
Too little too late. :super frowny emoticon:


What a douche.

"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
HaemishM
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Reply #4 on: September 01, 2004, 08:13:42 AM

Quote from: schild
Too little too late. :super frowny emoticon:


Not for some of us.

Alkiera
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Reply #5 on: September 01, 2004, 09:41:46 AM

Agreed, not for some of us.  Of course, I should actually get to playing more.  My work schedule generally keeps me from playing with people I know, which generally precludes me actually logging in.  If I try hard, maybe I can get my BS/inv scrapper to 20 so he can get a cloak.

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Alkiera

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Merusk
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Reply #6 on: September 01, 2004, 09:47:52 AM

Quote from: eldaec
Also, early reports suggest mission rewards are now 3 to 5 times those on live servers, and missions have various spangly features added (doors, fires, defend-an-object missions, outdoor missions, labs giving off fumes that buff people in a specific area and so on).


The fumes thing is already in some missions. I did a CW mission the other day where you destroy your contact's lab.  Each piece of equipment I destroyed gave a buff or debuff depending on what was inside the equipment.

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Reply #7 on: September 01, 2004, 10:13:08 AM

Quote from: Murgos
Quote
Too little too late. :super frowny emoticon:


What a douche.




On the offchance you were serious and not referencing me calling myself a douche in the other thread - it really is too late. And I _am_ upset about it, I would have enjoyed some of those changes and I don't have the time now to jump back into Paragon City.
SurfD
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Reply #8 on: September 01, 2004, 10:16:11 AM

Looks like scrappers are getting some major luv too:

- Visible "Critical" hit notice, not just the damage numbers
- Crits on all attack Pool powers
- Increased chance of Crit on anything ranking higher then a Minion (means scrappers should ALWAYS be going for bosses/leuts first, if they werent before)
- Martial arts Scrapper appearently got a complete overhaul of attack animations and speeds, making for a faster Class overall.
- Katana got retooled animations and new attack names (no longer a carbon copy of BroadSword, with different attack speeds)

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Lanei
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Reply #9 on: September 01, 2004, 12:10:07 PM

Quote from: SurfD

- Crits on all attack Pool powers


Been in since around Issue 1.

Quote from: SurfD

- Increased chance of Crit on anything ranking higher then a Minion (means scrappers should ALWAYS be going for bosses/leuts first, if they werent before)
- Martial arts Scrapper appearently got a complete overhaul of attack animations and speeds, making for a faster Class overall.
- Katana got retooled animations and new attack names (no longer a carbon copy of BroadSword, with different attack speeds)

[/quote]

Me like.  Have toi re-install test client and give it a try.
kaid
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Reply #10 on: September 01, 2004, 12:13:42 PM

Lots of good stuff in the patch. Tanks got some serious loving and my normal groups tanker is pretty pleased.

New zones and revamped missions for all levels is pretty sweet.

Capes, badges and auras gives the more reward oriented folks something to shoot for.

Pretty wide ranging tests and fixes probably take a week or so to get a better feel of how they all work. As usual the coh boards hurt my brain trying to read them though 5 mintues after patch you get the devs killed my puppy style posts.

Kaid
jpark
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Reply #11 on: September 01, 2004, 12:48:39 PM

By the looks of it a lot of nice touches here.  Keep in mind this is a free update - not an expansion.

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"  HaemishM.
shiznitz
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Reply #12 on: September 01, 2004, 01:02:20 PM

There are some nerfs (of course).

SG != god mode. -tohit only 5% now. Seems like overkill to me, but I enjoyed the old while I could.

Some controller pets lost dmg, but gained accuarcy and HPs. This is being hailed as a nerf by controllers.  I never played one.

I have never played WoW.
SurfD
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Reply #13 on: September 01, 2004, 01:42:50 PM

The controller pets nerf thing will only be verified with some heavy testing.  It all depends on how much of a damage reduction they got.  If the 25% increase in accuracy balances it out to roughly the same DPS, then they have nothing to complain about (other then the Phantom army doesent benefit from the HP boost, being that Phantom Army is already Indestuctible)

I imagine Radiation controllers/deffenders will be pissed though.  One of their powers was broken, and debuffing around the order of 220% instead of the 30% it is now set to as "fixed".

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
eldaec
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Reply #14 on: September 01, 2004, 02:44:57 PM

Quote from: Lanei
Quote from: SurfD

- Crits on all attack Pool powers


Been in since around Issue 1.


No it hasn't.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
SurfD
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Reply #15 on: September 01, 2004, 03:21:52 PM

Everyone expected the Smoke Grenade nerf to come.  Devices was by FAR the most over powered Blaster secondary in the entire game.  Of course, it will also depend on if they stack or not (I cant remember if the Smoke Grenade stacks with itself from a single caster or not)

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Big Gulp
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Reply #16 on: September 01, 2004, 05:08:15 PM

Where's the tanker love?  We're a class that's hurting in a big way, particularly us superstrength tankers.

How's about upping our damage here?  Make our punches slow, but do huge damage?  Because I know for a fact that a blaster just buying boxing from the pool powers can outdamage me in hand to hand.  This is the equivalent of the Human Torch smacking around enemies that the Hulk couldn't handle.  

Also, in order to really play my character I need to keep Unyielding Stance up at all times, which means I can't move.  What is the secondary effect of almost all of my attacks?  Knockback.  Not exactly a genius fucking move.  Especially considering that once I knock the bad guys out of my area I'm no longer AOE taunting them, and they can start engaging my teammates.  So basically, my attacks negate the entire reason for my being in a group, to keep the villains off of my teammates.  How's about knockdown instead of knockback, folks?

Scrappers are already death machines.  They don't need anymore tweaking.  Tankers, especially stone, ice, and super strength tankers need it badly.
SurfD
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Reply #17 on: September 01, 2004, 08:28:56 PM

Umm, Gulp, Read the Page:

Quote
Changed Tanker/Super Strength Punch and Haymaker and Stone Melee/Stone Mallet and Heavy Mallet and Battle Axe Gash, Chop and Beheader to a Knock Down, instead of a Knock Back. Villains will still fall just as much, but you will not have to go chase after them as much.

Reduced Tanker and Defender attack powers Endurance Costs.

Increased the Damage of Tanker/Super Strength/Knockout Blow

Slightly increased the chance and duration of Disorient for Power Punch/Barrage and Super Strength/Jab


So all in all, Your Super Strength dude is going to spend a lot less time chasing thigns around.  And can attack more often due to the reduced End Costs.

Besides, US is exactly what it is UNYIELDING.  You get buttloads of defense/resist, but trade off movement.  The most elegant solution i have seen for that is to just make a teleport tank, and then you dont have to move to engage your enemy, you just teleport them to you, or you to them.

There is also a fairly substantial list of things that are being tweaked in a bunch of the Tanker Armour sets, but not having played a tanker, I couldnt tell you if the changes are for the better or not.  Most of them seem to be.

Darwinism is the Gateway Science.
Big Gulp
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Reply #18 on: September 01, 2004, 08:38:59 PM

Quote from: SurfD

Besides, US is exactly what it is UNYIELDING.  You get buttloads of defense/resist, but trade off movement.  The most elegant solution i have seen for that is to just make a teleport tank, and then you dont have to move to engage your enemy, you just teleport them to you, or you to them..


See, I just don't see teleportation fitting into the character concept of a tanker, and I'm not one of those assholes who'll completely ignore a cohesive character concept for the sake of efficiency alone.  In other words, I have nothing but disdain for all of those axe/fire tankers running around out there.  I respect the genre, goddammit.

What I've done instead is just slot Unstoppable with a shitload of reduced recharge enhancements and am able to start it up again before the negative side effects (complete endurance drain) kick in.  Still, not an elegant solution.

Thanks for pointing out those changes, though.  I'd completely overlooked 'em.
tar
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Reply #19 on: September 02, 2004, 04:59:00 AM

There're a couple of posts on the boards from Statesman and geko about tankers which might be interesting:

Quote from: geko

Tanker Knockback details

There are some quick changes coming to the test server shortly concerning Tanker KnockBack. It is my hope this will address everyone’s concerns:

NEW CHANGE TO TANKER KNOCKBACK: Most Tanker melee attacks that do KnockBack will now do KnockDown to villains 1 level below you or higher (villains 2 levels below you will get knocked back). Placing 1 Generic KnockBack Enhancement will allow you to KnockBack foes at your level. Placing 2 Generic KB Enh (or 1 DO KB Enh) will allow you to KB foes 2 levels higher than you (and so on). This should now give the player a much greater degree of control on whether they want KnockBack or KnockDown. (Some higher level Tanker melee powers still do KnockBack even w/o Enhancements (e.g. Battle Axe/Cleave, War Mace/Crowd Control, Super Strength/Hurl).

Additionally, the following is getting modified from what is on the Training Room now (9/1 4pm PST) to address other concerns and to fit better with the above statement:
*Changed KnockBack of Foot Stomp, Tremor and Whirling Axe to a KnockDown.
*Increased KnockBack of Hand Clap and Hurl and Hurl Boulder.
*Increased the overall effectiveness of all KnockBack Enhancements.


This will be up on the Training Room very soon. I will be checking for feedback.


Quote from: Statesman

Response to Tanker concerns

Tankers,
I've gotten a number of PM's asking me to post on this thread or that - so I thought I'd just collect all my responses onto a single post.

1. I hear from many of you that you'd like to be a "comic book" tank. You know, the kind that "gets stronger the angrier he gets"! ( ). Right now, the City of Heroes Tankers are akin to that - but their focus is on being the hero who takes damage. I can't say that there's anything imminent on this front; I wanted to at least say that yes, I hear you.

2. Stone Armor f/x will eventually be changed. And eventually we'll make Stone Armor, Ice Armor and Dark Armor toggles NOT mutually exclusive. Eventually. There's art time involved (obviously) and some significant code work to be done. But, I wanted you to know that we are working on this.

3. The post 30 game is way, way too easy. The damage dealers in the game can eliminate enemies so fast that there's little need for the "support" Archetypes. I haven't done anything yet to Tankers in specific in these levels because I feel the issue is greater than just Tankers. We're exploring several options here - and one of them is increasing the hit points of foes. IF we do this, I want to make sure that we don't destroy completely the capabilities of the non-primary damage dealers. So we'll be paying special attention to this.

4. We wanted to change Tankers' Knockback to Knockdown, because the former is so much more useful in melee combat. But many Tankers contacted us to say that they liked their Knockback - so Geko kept a single power with a Knockback attack. We're working on something else right now that will make Knockback an OPTIONAL component of ALL those powers. But that's something that we're toying with. I can't promise anything yet.

Here's another thing: the Test server is for testing. We'll roll things back if needed. And now that the Expansion is up, we can start putting in more balance tweaks to respond to the datamining and player feedback.

Feel free to any other particular issues I haven't covered here (I'll check on this thread throughout the day Wednesday).


and a further reply from Statesman to someone's idea:

Quote from: Statesman

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TANKERS DO MORE DAMAGE WHEN THEY TAKE MORE DAMAGE.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Ariel1, that's pretty darn cool. Actually, I've seen this in a couple of posts. Wanted to point out how interesting this is.
Sable Blaze
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Reply #20 on: September 02, 2004, 09:00:17 AM

I hope that's the opening phase of some serious work on tankers. What they've got there is OK (aside from the UNS thing...though it does sound like it was bugged...more's the pity), but it won't really fix anything.

The problem is not that tanks aren't good tanks. They are. Too good for what they typically face. The problem is for most things you really don't need a tank. There needs to be a huge increase in difficulty level post-30. I think Cryptic is heading in this direction, but sooner is better.

My own broadsword/invul scrapper is hitting her mid-30s. What I"m fighting at these levels is ridiculous. Whites/yellows should be mainstay soloing objects. Maybe orange lts/bosses. However, I"m fighting +1 to +2 purples (though, admittedly, not of some villain groups). Minions are just simply too easy to deal with at these levels. They need buffed and they need commensurate gains in xp earned for taking them down.

That's what needs to happen so tanks and their groups can actually benefit from their massive defenses.
SurfD
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Reply #21 on: September 02, 2004, 04:56:37 PM

Not sure how much it would help, but I think one of the things they really need is more minions with really really high ranged damage.  Most Blasters (myself being one) fear almost nothing but groups of snipers because of the simple fact that we can kill it before it even reaches us.  If we actually ran into large groups of things that could hurt us BAD from nearly our attack range, then more blaster groups would welcome tanks.

Really, the problem is sort of along the lines that Scrappers and Blasters use the fact that we can kill stuff REALLY REALLY damn fast as our primary form of damage mitigation (it cant hurt you if it is dead).  Problem is, we are TOO good at it, and in many cases, can kill entire groups of things with one or two hits.  (a propperly specced out pair of Energy Blasters are insanely devistating)

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kaid
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Reply #22 on: September 03, 2004, 10:49:07 AM

Statesman in the last couple days has commented many times how they are aware of the post 30 mob difficulty issues. It really causes problems for tanks controllers and defenders as mobs die so fast support skills are just not needed.

kaid
Sable Blaze
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Reply #23 on: September 03, 2004, 11:26:40 AM

I'm hoping this means a LARGE increase in hit points for minions. I think ranged damage could use a fairly considerable increase in itself. Statesman has been saying minion toughness is definately on their minds. Not sure if they're planning anything concerning ranged damage modifications.

It's also been stated that something is going to happen to AoE. Exactly what is the question. Personally, I"d say a decrease in ACC would be the obvious choice. More misses means less dps and more need for crowd control of whatever variety. A cap on the number of minions able to be hit would be a quick and dirty approach.

I also think the purple patch is going to have to be rolled back. That combined with a very large increase in minion toughness should put the support classes back in play (and, yes, tanks are support--at least their primary function is). It also should move the sweet spot of soloing back to roughly even-con to +1. Experience rewards will have to be increased substantially for the revised minions (and probably leaders, too).

The only concern then would be solo ability. END reductions for tanks and defenders are already in update#2. I'm also thinking tanker secondaries are going to need some serious work. I think slow, heavy attacks might be necessary there. Moving provoke to the tanker secondaries and competely canning taunt (for tanks) would be a step in the correct direction as well. If nothing else, it'd free up a power pool for most tanks.

Cryptic has its work cut out for it.
kaid
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Reply #24 on: September 03, 2004, 11:53:22 AM

I think they will find jacking up mob hp alone is not the answer. If they do it will mean the people who don't do as much damage will be even worse than the primary damage dealers. They mentioned upping damage of tankers and defenders then but it misses the point of what is causing the problem.

AOE is to effective in the game. It is to accurate does damage to similar to single target blasts and is just over all to efficient.

When you can destroy 10 to 15 mobs with the same energy it takes to do 1 or 2 mobs you are going to see these issues.

I hate calling down nerfs on anybodys heads but I think either there needs to be some change or nerf on aoe powers attacks not just blasters but all of them or mobs will need to get enhanced range abilities or a better chance to dodge avoid aoe effects.

Blasters are not going to be moshing 15 mobs if there is a chance that a good chunk will be missed and then have enough damage capability to really hurt the blaster.

The smoke grenade and smoke power changes were a good step in this direction. Witht smoke grenade blasters could drop a mobs attack to the minimum of 5% chance to hit. With that even IF you missed some it was not a big deal.

Mobs I think need to hit harder across the board as well at the higher levels tanks powers are in general so overkill that they just arn't really needed. Hell with my force fielder I can make most defenders tank the same mobs tanks do easy enough and without even needing a healer.

With my normal group with a ff defender and an empath defender we are immune to mobs.


kaid
Big Gulp
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Reply #25 on: September 03, 2004, 12:08:41 PM

Quote from: kaid

AOE is to effective in the game. It is to accurate does damage to similar to single target blasts and is just over all to efficient.


What I'd like to see them do is make the damage in AOE attacks more effective at the epicenter of the blast or cone and less so on the fringes.  It's more realistic and it'd cut down on the AOE imbalance problem.

Let people slot AOE blast increase enhancements if they want to, but that has the side effect of reducing the quantity of slottable damage enhancements.
Sable Blaze
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Reply #26 on: September 03, 2004, 12:57:50 PM

The epicenter thing is OK, but how will you deal with melee AoEs? Of course, they're a good deal more difficult (spines being an exception here) to employ. You could reduce blast radii, but then you'll need a stacking code fix even worse than you do now.

The smoke/SG thing wasn't really a nerf. It was a fix for a coding mistake. The anguished cries heard from blasters on the official board were merely a fringe benefit for the rest of us (you can't buy this sort of entertainment).

Also, properly built defenders don't need tanks at all. The latest in rad/* builds has them soloing +3 mobs and greater. Mob difficulty simply has to be increased, no matter what else you do.
kaid
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Reply #27 on: September 03, 2004, 02:43:46 PM

I fully agree I can deffinatly see as my FF defender and my normal group get closer to 30 the mobs will become a complete joke. I am not sure that just raising the hp is the answer though. I think it will have be a combination of different things from looking at how aoes work to mob ranged/melee damge, player hit points and non tanker defense.

The way that defense works is also kind of wonky and even if you are not a tanker it is not that hard to either max your defense or come close to it through power pools. If you stack combat jump and acrobatics with stuff from the fighting pool you can make it so that mobs anywhere near your level simply are not going to be effective against you.


If mobs were tougher it would make the support classes actually function more correctly AS support classes.

kaid
Sable Blaze
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Reply #28 on: September 03, 2004, 06:17:14 PM

Defense can be sorta odd, but the most you can get from the power pools is about 40-odd percent. That's pretty decent against even cons, but it drops off a LOT against bosses or +2 minions.

I think increasing minion hps is a good start. They may very well need more than that, but you can always add more later on. As they are now, they're just pathetic.

The only real problem I see with increasing minion hps is with tanker soloing. An END reduction of their attacks is a very good start, but they do need more. They're a late blooming AT, which doesnt help much either. Although, when I'm playing my tankers (a rare event these days) as long as I"m busy fighting, I'm pretty happy. I get annoyed when I"m forced into downtime by running out of END. Maybe some tweaks to existing sets. Some faster attacks as we know them now, some modified by slowing up their recharge a fair amount and adding very significant damage. That combined with some sort of AoE nerf should have tanks looking better.
Alkiera
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Reply #29 on: September 03, 2004, 11:18:19 PM

Quote from: Sable Blaze
The latest in rad/* builds has them soloing +3 mobs and greater.


Quote from: Issue 2 Patch Notes
Fixed Irradiate Defense Debuff for Villains and Heroes. It was debuffing the target(s) by 220% instead of 30%.


There's a reason for that.  Issue 2 fixes at least part of it.

--
Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
schild
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Reply #30 on: September 03, 2004, 11:32:30 PM

Quote from: Sable Blaze
The latest in rad/* builds has them soloing +3 mobs and greater.


CoH has templates of the week? Honestly, this surprises me. Dead serious here, I thought the complete seperation of power was meant to stop this. Can someone tell me how this build works?

Edit: Just saw Alkiera's post. Ignore me. Oh and ROFL@220%.
Alkiera
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Reply #31 on: September 03, 2004, 11:41:34 PM

Quote from: schild
Quote from: Sable Blaze
The latest in rad/* builds has them soloing +3 mobs and greater.


CoH has templates of the week? Honestly, this surprises me. Dead serious here, I thought the complete seperation of power was meant to stop this. Can someone tell me how this build works?

Edit: Just saw Alkiera's post. Ignore me. Oh and ROFL@220%.


As far as templates...  It works the same as any other game.  You choose which powers to focus on, and focus the hell out of them.  A friend of mine reads boards alot for these kinds of things.  He's told me of several 'offensive' defender builds, for example.  One uses hasten and lots of recharge reduction on Fulcrum Shift so they can, about every 45 seconds, step into a large group of mobs, hit fulcrum shift, and then the psychic blast PBAE, and kill a group of even/+1 mobs outright.  Another focuses on 2 higher level psychic blast single-target attacks which are high damage, high recharge, and works on making them faster, so they're effective in solo combat.

Template of the Week is all about focusing skills.  Any system which lets you choose to focus on one area or another, or have a little power in lots of areas, is subject to this...  frequently because it, to date, is ALWAYS more effective to focus than to be a 'jack of all trades'.  Call it the major con of skill-based systems, ironically resulting in, effectively, a class-based system.

--
Alkiera

"[I could] become the world's preeminent MMO class action attorney.  I could be the lawyer EVEN AMBULANCE CHASERS LAUGH AT. " --Triforcer

Welcome to the internet. You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used as evidence against you in a character assassination on Slashdot.
schild
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Reply #32 on: September 04, 2004, 01:10:16 AM

Quote from: Alkiera
As far as templates...


Heh, I know how templates work. I just meant what was the defender build. I wouldn't have thought of Fulcrum shift and a PbAOE. neat.
Sable Blaze
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Reply #33 on: September 04, 2004, 08:22:25 AM

Rad/dark is a biggy (dark/dark is coming back, too--and might even survive the nerf). Yah, a fix to RE is a good thing. I made one of these the other day out of curiosity. It's very effective.

Rad/dark relies on a slotted out RE to drop mobs hit %ages to nothing. LTs and bosses are dealt with by Dark Blast's hit debuff. Things literally can't hit you. Things like red con LTs. Accelerate Metabolism is thrown in for your damage output and then you rely on DB and Gloom for single targets and Tenebrous Tentacles and Night Fall for groups. The mass disorient of Dark Pit can be thrown in for grins.

There are a few more options, but that's the basics. Slot the daylights out of what's mentioned above and you're golden. Offenders are the term that's been coined for them. Dark/dark is seeing some interest in a similar vein, especially with some of the improvements coming for it.

The point is this build needs no tank. Or scrapper. Or blaster. Or much of anything else. It's not particularily group friendly, since most groups are composed of complete morons that ALWAYS kill the anchor first, it seems.  It CAN group well, IF you can train people to actually look at what they're doing--namely leave the anchor mob for RE the hell alone.

After Update#2, though, it shouldn't be nearly as overpowered on the primary debuff side. However, the debuffs from Dark Blast are still considerable, especially for the cones. It can be a fun build if you like fiddling with a lot of powers during a single battle (sort of like DM/DA scrappers in this regard).
Glazius
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Reply #34 on: September 07, 2004, 04:24:56 AM

Quote from: Sable Blaze
Rad/dark is a biggy (dark/dark is coming back, too--and might even survive the nerf).

Nerf?

Dark Fluffy (AKA Dark Servant, the previously _stationary_ 32nd level pet) now moves around and actually uses damaging attacks instead of Dark Miasma's pseudo-controller powers. The triple-Ds are singing the praises of Cryptic on the test server.

--GF
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