Manhunt 2 gets an AO.

[cmlancas]

The ESRB has been whacked for years. I remember when I was a child my family wouldn't let me play Mortal Kombat because it had blood in it. The horror! The horror!


I loved Road Rash 3, and the Road Rash series for Genesis always got teen ratings, but c'mon, all the cop swatting with the mace/nightstick at 140MPH? That's cop-killing if I've ever seen it. And what was that, 1993?

I can understand why games with explicit sex/nudity get AO. You have to be 18 to watch pornography legally in the US, so I think it logically follows that you should get that rating. But with violence? I think that a 17+ (Rated R movie) rating is generally acceptable. How about not so sexually explicit games like SL? What kind of rating does Second Life get -- none, it isn't even rated! Yet, any child can download and be ready to play in minutes and ready to potentially be exploited by others in this community. Granted I know they are cracking down, but what's done is done. I still remember that Chiquita was partially financed by Colombian drug cartels every time I see the bananas in the grocery store and the same goes with SL. So what is the answer with the ratings system? If ridiculous, gratuitous violence in one media outlet gets an AO (NC-17) rating, then shouldn't things like Hostel, Kill Bill I+II, etc. get the same treatment? Hell, people like Bubba the Love Sponge (who was based out of where I am from) and Howard Stern can't even talk about sex and strippers on the radio.

I really think that this more or less comes down to a first amendment issue. With the courts the way they are and shit like the patriot act being passed, are we sure that now is the right time to make a stand for the first amendment? I firmly believe in end-user responsibility, but I'm not sure how well my view would stand up in a legal battle.

[Hayduke]

Second Life doesn't have an ESRB rating because they never applied for one.  They don't need one.  They have no retail presence (client is free), have no radio or TV presence (relies on internet banners, word of mouth, and journalist circle jerks), and isn't applying for a license to any console.  It's not a game, it's a virtual world.  And everything bad that can happen there can happen anywhere else on the internet (IRC, IM, forums, Yahoo groups, etc..).

[cmlancas]

So because it is a virtual world, it doesn't count as a game? I'd have to disagree.

[Tebonas]

You should move to a free society if your radio hosts can not talk about sex and strippers anyway.

How does that work? Freedom of speech only if it suits the government?

[CmdrSlack]

So because it is a virtual world, it doesn't count as a game? I'd have to disagree.

Well, it's not really a game. The most die-hard SL adherents will pitch a bitch if you call it a game.

I think the point is that SL doesn't have an ESRB rating because they're not mandatory.  They are essentially mandatory if you want to sell games in teh store, but SL has a free client and doesn't try to sell stuff in the store. Hence, no rating.

[Hayduke]

So because it is a virtual world, it doesn't count as a game? I'd have to disagree.

I don't consider an IRC client a game because it isn't.  I don't consider Second Life because I don't think it is, it's an online community with content creation.  But that's semantics anyway, my point is Second Life didn't apply for a rating because they didn't need one.

[Chimpy]

You should move to a free society if your radio hosts can not talk about sex and strippers anyway.

How does that work? Freedom of speech only if it suits the government?

Freedom of Speech is not some all encompassing pass that allows people to say what they want, wherever they want.

That is not to say that the whole "indecency" thing isn't just a load of Puritanism seeping out in the genes of their decendants 300 years later. Americans are, in general, malformed psychologically.

[Tebonas]

Yeah, its that inconsistency that you can spread hatred and bigotry and be protected by Freedom of Speech, but the same people allowing that get a collective heart stroke when a nipple is seen on prime time TV. I know its there, but it surprises me a little each time I read how far that bigotry is still reaching.

Good thing these puritans fled Europe. Real troublemakers with lasting gene material  :-D

[Yegolev]

It's in the first 20 minutes. ^_^

I'm sure, but really the ESRB does not play the games.  They are given footage by the studio, and the studio chooses that footage.  Unless things have changed since Hot Coffee, that is, but I suspect not.  The big flaw, if there is one, with the ESRB lies in this fact.

Also, remember that there are no "bad" words in Japanese.  Certainly it's bad form to talk about feces in many situations, but there is not a list of bad words in the language.

[HaemishM]

http://www.capalert.com/

This guy has been keeping me amused for years by finding new and creative ways in which all movies offend Jesus.  Apparently he got tired of paying for a ticket to every single movie coming out, though, because now he needs to be "sponsored" to review one.  Someone should pay him to do Hostel 2.

Someone should pay him never to do web site design ever again. My ocular cavities are still sore.

[NiX]

Even Jesus himself wouldn't put up with that website.

[Chimpy]

Even Jesus himself wouldn't put up with that website.

It is funny, you would think with how image savvy the conservative media outlets are in radio, tv, and print your right-wing nutsos would at least have some of that image sensibility rub off on them.

But almost every wacko bible-thumper website uses the same glaring white with rainbow colored header template it seems. I can make a better site than that and I have not made a website since before flash was more than a neat toy for intro movies.

[Fabricated]

Manhunt 2 has been shelved.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172931.html

[schild]

Time to get my preorder money back. Sucks. I was looking forward to ripping off testicles as an over 21 consenting adult.

[Azazel]

Those Gamespot user comments made me weep for the fate of literacy and intelligence in the world today.

[Chimpy]

Those Gamespot user comments made me weep for the fate of literacy and intelligence in the world today.

the internet is the great equalizer.

It is making us all dumber by reading it.

[HaemishM]

Those Gamespot user comments made me weep for the fate of literacy and intelligence in the world today.

I begin to think every poster should be issued a grammer monkey who tosses feces at them when they try to post with words like "tword" in their post. Goddamnit, is that extra "O" and a correct "A" so goddamn hard to add?

[Chimpy]

Those Gamespot user comments made me weep for the fate of literacy and intelligence in the world today.

I begin to think every poster should be issued a grammer monkey who tosses feces at them when they try to post with words like "tword" in their post. Goddamnit, is that extra "O" and a correct "A" so goddamn hard to add?

Wut u meen dood?

[HaemishM]

Die in an alphabet fire.

[Strazos]

I wonder what such a glorious incident would look like...

[Simond]

Manhunt 2 has been shelved.

http://www.gamespot.com/news/6172931.html

And for 'shelved' read 'sent back to Rockstar to remove the one or two scenes which pushed it over the line to AO/banned, then reissued with "The game they don't want you to play"-type PR'.

It's not like Rockstar have ever done anything like this before, amirite? 

[schild]

Don't roll your eyes at Rockstar on this one. I'm no fans of theirs, but this banning of a video game shit is just plain abhorable. Yes, while it may have been DISTASTEFUL to make the game itself, it's even more disgusting that retailers and politicians decide what I get to fucking play.

[Roac]

I don't get the fuss.  If they'd just release the game, it would be so much easier to figure out who the terrorists are.

[Bunk]

I'm going to open myself up to all sorts of ridicule here by admitting to owning Rumble Roses XX for the 360. It was only $20!

The reason I mention it, is that I get a kick out of the content that appears to have been pulled from the Japanese version of the game before it came to North America. It appears they removed two unlockable characters from the game. One appears to be a manservant/gimp type of guy, and the second is, get this, a bear.

Apparently women wrestling a bear was considered far too harmful to the childrens of the US of A.

(Once you get past the DOA style T&A, its actually a pretty good wrestling game. Honestly.)

[Yegolev]

I'm going to open myself up to all sorts of ridicule here by admitting to owning Rumble Roses XX for the 360.

I saw you playing this on XBL and decided I would not rat you out.

As for Manhunt 2, too bad it hasn't yet gone to duplication.  That would have been fun.

[HaemishM]

Don't roll your eyes at Rockstar on this one. I'm no fans of theirs, but this banning of a video game shit is just plain abhorable. Yes, while it may have been DISTASTEFUL to make the game itself, it's even more disgusting that retailers and politicians decide what I get to fucking play.

But in the US, it isn't the retailers and politicians deciding, it's Nintendo and Sony. They've both said they won't release a game that gets that rating on their systems. Without them, the game ain't going anywhere. It's shitty, but what is Rockstar going to do? Pull a Postal, i.e. make the game for PC and release it to the Internet for direct download?

In this case, I think Rockstar has finally gotten the dickslapping they've been asking for since GTA3. The great thing about pushing at social mores with shocking material is that eventually, society pushes back. It isn't like they didn't know they were making an adult-oriented game. They knew full well that they were very very close to pissing off the ESRB and anyone else who could or would defend them since that Hot Coffee incident. Surprise, the ESRB grew some sack and gave the game its deserved AO rating.

The shitty part is that AO shouldn't be a death knell for games. We SHOULD be able to have games made specifically for adults, whether that be games with hot sex action or the ultraviolence. But since no one can imagine a scenario where retailers do their fucking duty and don't sell adult game material to kids, we don't get to have nice things.

Rockstar can still release Manhunt 2, they either have to change formats to one that isn't dependent on prudish hardware, or change the fucking game to fit within Rated M standards. That's not censorship, that's a self-regulating industry.

[Roac]

But since no one can imagine a scenario where retailers do their fucking duty and don't sell adult game material to kids, we don't get to have nice things.

It's not just that, but the image that the stores and consoles may get by allowing the sale of adult products.  Nintendo and Wal-Mart in particular have always tried to cater to a "family friendly" sort of image.  About any other large retail store is going to follow suit.  No one likes adult stuff, because the more adult content gets the smaller the market (to the point that even R movies tend to not do as well as PG / PG-13 movies).  No retail store is going to toss its reputation in with adult-adult stuff, because it can't afford to miss customers buying more normal products in order to cater to the tiny, tiny minority of more adult content customers.

Politicians will of course claim it's all for the children, but business doesn't give a shit about children.  Business would sell crack to babies if there was money in it; that's what business does.  Businesses aren't selling adult stuffs because there's no money in it (Edit to add, obviously small specialty stores and online places do.  That's not who I'm referring to here, and only makes my point).  Further, business tends to like rating systems because it insulates *them* from accusations that they're being sly with adult content.  Instead, it pushes the difficult decisions to the MPAA / ESRB / etc so they can avoid risk.

[Margalis]

A blanket policy against allowing AO content on your system is fairly stupid, especially given that M is 17+ and AO is 18+, literally a 1 day difference in some cases. And the whole point of ratings is that you know in advance what the game is like and who it is appropriate for.

[UnSub]

In this case, I think Rockstar has finally gotten the dickslapping they've been asking for since GTA3. The great thing about pushing at social mores with shocking material is that eventually, society pushes back. It isn't like they didn't know they were making an adult-oriented game. They knew full well that they were very very close to pissing off the ESRB and anyone else who could or would defend them since that Hot Coffee incident. Surprise, the ESRB grew some sack and gave the game its deserved AO rating.

The shitty part is that AO shouldn't be a death knell for games. We SHOULD be able to have games made specifically for adults, whether that be games with hot sex action or the ultraviolence. But since no one can imagine a scenario where retailers do their fucking duty and don't sell adult game material to kids, we don't get to have nice things.

I agree.

If Rockstar actually had the balls to release a game they knew was going to push the boundaries, this decision shouldn't have phased them one bit. They are a big company with big name recognition of the series (compared to a lot of other games). They've got financial backing to make adult-orientated games and get then distributed at locations other than badly designed websites that hold specialist titles.

Instead, they folded like a house of cards in a weak breeze when they wouldn't be able to put the game on mass distribution channels. Rockstar like to play with controversy, but apparently can't handle it when they get their hand slapped for doing so. Poor babies.

I shed no tears for Rockstar over this.

[Roac]

A blanket policy against allowing AO content on your system is fairly stupid, especially given that M is 17+ and AO is 18+, literally a 1 day difference in some cases. And the whole point of ratings is that you know in advance what the game is like and who it is appropriate for.

You're not getting it.  It's not about trying to decide what the reasonable difference is between a 17yo and 18yo.  It's PR, public perception, and the bottom line.  You seem to be under the impression that people decide things based on the reasoning they actually provide to you.  It's not.  It's sugar coating, it's sheep's wool, it's whatever metaphor you like for hiding the real reason.   There is some fuzzy line where content becomes not ok for most people, but they need a hard line because fuzzy lines are no good when you're making a binary decision.  The line is needed at all because carrying stuff that's WAY over the line tends to piss off customers, and that's bad for business.  Nor does it really matter where you decide to draw it, because people are going to push it no matter what since that's what happens when you force something subjective into an objective framework.  The businesses don't really have a choice but to play along, and the consumers never get exactly what they're after, but they're meeting in a very arbitrary and unsteady middle that's about the best they can do for minimum effort.  That's why it's M=17 and AO=18.  It's the point of least energy.  It's more or less where the most people are pissed the least amount.  That's not the same as the a point that's a rational middle.

[Murgos]

Instead, they folded like a house of cards in a weak breeze when they wouldn't be able to put the game on mass distribution channels. Rockstar like to play with controversy, but apparently can't handle it when they get their hand slapped for doing so. Poor babies.

Uh, Rockstar is in the business of selling games.  Making them is incidental.  They don't exist to test corporate boundaries of free speech, that too is incidental.

[Margalis]

My point was that with ratings parents already know not to buy certain games, and stores know not to sell to certain age groups. No need for any restrictions on top of that.

[Strazos]

My point was that with ratings parents already know not to buy certain games, and stores know not to sell to certain age groups. No need for any restrictions on top of that.

I know you mean well, but in practice this doesn't hold up. You have too many fucking idiots working at Wal*Mart, or Target, Best Buy, or EBstop.

The worst is when a parent drops off a kid. Kid comes in wanting to buy a M-rated game, and I inform them that their parent needs to come in and buy it for them, so I can inform them of what they are buying. Kid goes and gets said parent, who then comes in and bitches up a storm about me "holding them up," and that I should "just do my damn job." I proceed to try to inform the parent anyway of what they are buying, but they don't care and just want me to ring the stupid game up.

Most parents really don't care to be educated on what the ratings mean. For fuck's sake, we even have a little bookmark-thing that explains the entire system. I even try to drop them in the bags from time to time.

The best is when said parent comes back, bitching at us for selling a M-rated game to little Timmy, who is only 9 and is far too immature for the content (Gears of War if you are wondering), and that I should not have sold them the game. I then proceed to remind the parent that I sold that very game to them myself, and tried to explain in detail what the M-rating meant, but that they didn't have the time to listen for 27 seconds or so.

I swear to fucking god, there should be a license to breed.

While the ratings system is nice and has the ability to Actually Work, in breaks down in practice; the employees selling the games don't know shit about the ratings and don't care what they are selling, and the parents are too fucking stupid and/or lazy to care about the "kiddy shit" they are buying for their hellspawn.

This shit almost gives me a damn conniption.

[Chimpy]

Parents need to be parents and pay the fuck attention to their children.

That is the root cause of all of this shitstorm. Parents who are shirking their own responsibility blame the people who made/sold the game to them instead of taking the 30 seconds to actually care what their kid is doing outside of being the "star" of the diaper dandies soccer league or part of a nice picture to hang on their cube wall at work so people will compliment them.

[Big Gulp]

Don't roll your eyes at Rockstar on this one. I'm no fans of theirs, but this banning of a video game shit is just plain abhorable. Yes, while it may have been DISTASTEFUL to make the game itself, it's even more disgusting that retailers and politicians decide what I get to fucking play.

Why?  Sony and Nintendo own their platforms, they can decide what they allow on them.  There's no censorship going on here (at least in the US), there's just the free market working as intended.  If Rockstar wanted they could release the game on the PC via digital distribution, but apparently they don't want to go that route.

Too bad for them that they rely on stores to sell their stuff and proprietary platforms to run their games, but that's life.  The government isn't involved in this in the slightest.