EvE newb with some questons.

[SurfD]

Getting ready to get back into EvE, and had a few questions i wanted to ask:

When selecting your initial race group and such, there are no innate bonuses for just picking a race are there?  (as in, with WoW, each race has racial specific traits / abilities that only that race gets)

So for example, a Caldari character and a Minmatar character, assuming both had the same stats, and same skills, would be essentially the exact same character (other then the portrait?), and if you threw them in the same ship (remember, same skills / stats) would both pilot the ship with the same effectiveness?

Basicly im just trying to figure out if i can feel free to pick a race for Avatar appearance alone, without having to worry about potentially gimping myself in the long run.

[ajax34i]

Yes, a Caldari and Minmatar with the same stats and same skills would pilot a ship equally well in all respects.

However, when you create the Caldari, they start with different stats than the Minmatar, and by choosing the various backgrounds associated with each race, you may or may not be able to get both to have exactly the same stats.  The difference shouldn't be more than 1-2 points here and there, which is minimal after you apply all the bonuses from learning skills and implants, once you're in the game.

EDIT:  as far as I know, all skills are available to everyone, regardless of race.  The only difference, besides appearance, is 1-2 points in attributes distributed differently, and the fact that a starting character is likely to do the local agent missions, and thereby starting with higher rep with his own race, rather than deciding to fly half-way across the galaxy to do the starter missions for some other race.  Also, you get 800k skillpoints from the character creation screen that will apply to your race's ships, and if you want to fly some other race's ships (many people do), you get to start from 0, rather than from 3 or 4.

[SurfD]

perfect. that answers one of my questions (I am rather fond of the minmatar avatars, and also kind of like their background lore, but their ships dont really seem as well suited to heavy missile / drone loadouts as some of the other ones).

Next question:

Would you reccomend maxing out the Learning and related learning skills quickly (with the intent to reap benefits from the reduced skill learn time more quickly), or is the difference not so great that training up other skills first wouldnt be a better idea?

[ajax34i]

You will be limited in the game by two things:  ISK, and the fact that regardless of how much time you spend logged in, those damn skills train so slowly, keeping you from unlocking ships that you already have the cash to purchase and use, sooner.

A newbie needs cash fast, which means he needs a way to make the cash.  The 800k skillpoints are supposed to help with this, by starting you off with the correct combo of skills to either fight or mine or work the market or whatnot.  I'd recommend the military school to start with; if you can fight, you can make money off missions, and it's a lot easier to get the skill to strap a mining laser on, than it is to train up the several skills required for fighting properly.

If you have a source that can give you about 5 mil ISK, you'll have enough money to buy learning skills right away, and survive for the 2 weeks to a month that it takes to learn them.  If you don't have cash at all, I'd recommend getting enough skills to jump into a ship and make some money somehow, then once you have a few mil, worry about the learning skills.

You need the learning skills, btw.  Basic to 4, advanced to 3, at the minimum I would say.  Plus, a +1 implant for each attribute is cheap enough to make it worth getting as soon as you have money for it too.  Doing this stuff will cut your skillup time in half, from then on forever, so it's VERY worth it.

[SurfD]

Sounds good, pretty much thinking of doing a Brutor - > Military -> spec ops (for leg up on drones), then hitting up whatever i can for learning skills.  do a lot of ratting to make cash.

How difficult is it to move stuff between characters?

if i have a primary character specced for combat / mining (maybe salvaging instead?) and a second character trained up with Science / refining skills, how hard would it be to send that secondary character stuff to refine and then get the return sent back to my "main"?

[TheDreamr]

Unless you're an alt with a lot of money to burn and don't really plan on playing too much for the first month, then I wouldn't recommend maxing out learning immediately.   There are advantages to going all-out on learning, but it's a soul destroying experience I wouldn't recommend to anyone who's creating their first long-term character.


IMO a better solution is to train the basic (cheap) learning skills to 3 within the first few days provided you have the available funds - this'll speeds up training times some without needing you to invest too much time waiting for non-fun skills to train.  Once that's done switch to useful skills which make the game more enjoyable for you, and think about training learning to 4 when you have some idle time or when you would like lower training times.

[Reg]

You can only have one character actually training skills per account so generally there's not much use in using an alt unless it's on a seperate account for stuff like that. You've chosen to make  Minnie which is good. Most of the ex-F13ers are playing in a corp based in Minmatar Space. Uh..called Miskatonic Industries or something like that.

Join the F13 chat channel once you've made it through character creation for more info. :)

[ajax34i]

You can send cash very easily by searching for your alt's name and right-clicking -> give cash. 

Items it's more difficult, you have to set up a contract specific to the alt's name carefully enough that it's not prone to someone else stealing your stuff, or you can make a corporation and put your main and alt in it, then transfer stuff via the shared Corp hangars.  Or, via anchored passworded cargo cans in (lowsec) space, or, make the alt on a second account, so that you can have both the main and the alt dock at the same station and exchange items via the "trade" pop-up window.  Painful whichever way you do it.

[Yegolev]

If you have an OK computer then you should be able to run two windowed clients for two accounts simultaneously.  Just saying, not suggesting that you eject valuables into space as a means of transfer.  I'd use a Contract, I think.

[TheDreamr]

Generally it's very easy to move items & money between characters by using private contracts, or corp hangers if you're in a player-run corporation.

Personally I'd avoid alts unless you get an expert character straight out of the box - EVE has an interesting economy so unless you really want minerals, just sell the raw ore at a market rates and let the buyer worry about refining it.

This way you get to focus on your core skills, enabling you to become competitive with your peers (ie. income generation) as soon as possible, without taking time out to train a rather specialised alt.


Added;

For manufacturing, refining etc. the best option early on is to find friends and acquaintances who've already committed the serious chunks of training time to being pretty much the best they can be in those areas and getting them to help you out - that way you have access to high-end skills without having to expend the training times for them.

[ajax34i]

You can have a main specced in combat/ratting and also with sufficient skills to refine, put sales orders on the market, mine if needed, haul if needed, etc. 

Every character needs a core set of skills (the ones needed to fly ships), so there's no point in making multiple characters then doing duplicate training, when one character will do.  Make your combat char, and in the process of getting him ships, get him a tech 1 hauler too, and spend 3 days tops to get the mining skill to 4, and the refining skills if you want them, to 3 or 4.

In my opinion, people use specialized refiners, specialized science, whatever, because they want to maximize the output of those things, because a 5% loss matters a lot due to the huge quantities that they process for their corp or what not.  Unskilled refining, you get 87% efficiency in empire, maxed out skill you get 95%, and then you need to max out faction in order to get 100% (no tax).  Two points in Trade and two in Retail, you can put up something like 25 sell orders; good enough for selling off loot.  If you max out the trade skills, sure, you can put up more orders AND modify them remotely, but that takes days to train up.

Mostly, alts are for when your main must be anonymous or is a pirate with low sec and can't get into Empire to buy stuff.

EDIT:  oh yeah, contracts will NOT physically move items for you, unless you play a player to move it via a courier contract (and courier contracts are typically full of scamming).  So if your main is across the galaxy from your refining alt, someone must jump in the hauler and move something, either the ore or the resulting minerals.  It's not like WoW mail.  It's why it's better if your main can refine somewhat; you take 10% loss but you can refine right then and there, and then put it up for sale locally, then move on.

[Viin]

With the new skills setup for new characters, you don't need to work on your Learning skills right out of the gate. You should start out a with pretty good set already.

Remember, the goal is to have fun, not "win" by maxing out your learning skills before the other guy. I typically train learning skills when I'm comfortable where I am (while I make cash, putz around, go on vacation) and don't need to learn "the next best thing". I don't normally have the cash for the "next best thing" anyways, so training it is moot at that point. :)

[SurfD]

Few more new newb questions:

If i wanted to go with a Missile boat / Drones combat setup, which race has the best ships suited to such a layout.  Im given to understand from my limited digging that Amarr are usually better set up for drones, while Caldari are better for Missiles?  Would either one be slightly better overall? (at, say, the Cruiser / Battlecruiser ship level?)

Also, regarding missiles: do i have to worry about fratricide when i am firing HUGE volumes of missiles at a single target simultaneously?

[Kail]

If i wanted to go with a Missile boat / Drones combat setup, which race has the best ships suited to such a layout.  Im given to understand from my limited digging that Amarr are usually better set up for drones, while Caldari are better for Missiles?  Would either one be slightly better overall? (at, say, the Cruiser / Battlecruiser ship level?)

Generally, it's Gallente if you're looking for drones, I believe.  Amarr are generally geared towards armor tanking and beam weapons.

I don't know much about battleships, but if you're looking for cruisers with a drone/misslie mix, I don't know how your luck with Caldari or Amarr will be.  Amaar and Caldari ships have crappy drone bays (except the Amarr Arbitrator, which only has one launcher hardpoint), and the only Gallente cruiser with more than one missile hardpoint is the Celestis (with two).

You might want to give the Minmatar cruisers a look, though.  The Belicose and Rupture have three launcher hardpoints and a 40/30 (respectively) unit drone bay.

[Endie]

The one thing that I find alts veeery useful for is trading.  It might not be something you're interested in, but you can create a trading alt with skills in setting up lots of orders, decreasing your margin calls and cutting your transaction costs dramatically, right out of the box.

[dwindlehop]

Few more new newb questions:

If i wanted to go with a Missile boat / Drones combat setup, which race has the best ships suited to such a layout.  Im given to understand from my limited digging that Amarr are usually better set up for drones, while Caldari are better for Missiles?  Would either one be slightly better overall? (at, say, the Cruiser / Battlecruiser ship level?)

Also, regarding missiles: do i have to worry about fratricide when i am firing HUGE volumes of missiles at a single target simultaneously?

Gallente = drones and max damage
Caldari = missiles and range
Amarr = tank and ranged dps
Minmatar = rust and vroom vroom!

Typhoon is the Minmatar BS with a big drone bay and bonuses to missiles. It is also a bitch to train for a full T2 fit.
Raven is the Caldari BS with more missile hardpoints and some drones. Drake is the Caldari BC, same deal. These don't have super drone bays, but they do alright.
You can't actually go balls-out with missiles on Gallente drone boats. There isn't a ship with the hardpoints.
Huginn is the Minmatar recon with a decent drone bay and bonus to missiles. Still a bitch to train for.
Arbitrator is an Amarr cruiser with a drone bonus and single missile hardpoint. The Curse is a pretty sweet upgrade, but not for missiles.

There is not a ship which has, for instance, a bonus to drone damage and missile damage. The Typhoon is the closest.

Missiles only hit your target with no splash. If you use Friend or Foe missiles you can hit friendlies, but you'll only use those if jammed.

[dwindlehop]

Gallente and Caldari BCs are getting the nerf bat in Rev 2, but at the moment they're reasonably pwn. I couldn't say post-Rev 2.

Vexor (Gallente crusier) is some good cheap fun, but no missiles.

Mostly the "good" T1 cruisers that get used by high-SP players are the ones that are suitable for gank setups (e.g. Rupture). These are probably not what you want.

[ajax34i]

I don't think missiles will destroy each other; they should just hit the target.

The thing about the big ships (battleships) is that most of them have token drone bays, so you can use small drones as an attempt to defend against frigates, which regular battleship-sized weapons can't hit very well.

However, drones and missiles are competing weapon systems; the skills for one won't help you at all with the other, and vice-versa.   And, you'll pretty much need all the help you can get with a weapon system in order to actually punch through the hardened (70% damage reduction) shields or armor that everyone flies around with.  Which means, if a ship gives you bonuses to a certain type of weapon, you want to use the biggest version that you can fit, in all the mounting points (which means boosting the ship's energy grid and capacitor to support this), plus with maxed out skills for rate of fire, damage, range, etc.

This is why people usually concentrate on the ships and weaponry from one race, to start with.  Missiles, hybrids, shield defense (Caldari).  Drones, hybrids, armor (Galente).  Lasers, armor defenses (Amarr).  The Minmatar ships can use anything; that doesn't mean that a ship has bonuses to everything, but rather you might find frigates that use Projectiles, Missiles, and Armor defense, and then cruisers that use Drones, Projectiles, and Shield defenses. 

Minmatar ships are considered "hard" to train because it takes a longer time for someone to level up the skills for all these different weapon systems to a point where they actually scratch the other guy's hardened defenses.

Finally, keep in mind that ships are "balanced" with the presumption that you have "good" support skills.  Engineering, Electronics, Mechanic, Navigation to 4+, plus the associated skills under those categories to 3-4.  If CCP gives you 5 gun slots in a Cruiser, you won't be able to actually install 5 cruiser-sized guns until you get Engineering to 4.  And even then, if you want the bigger damage versions of those guns, you have to gimp your defenses.

[Megrim]

That said, keep in mind that having Drones as a secondary means of dishing out damage does not actually take away from your chosen primary means. They are not conflicting in the sense that they interfere with each other's function, but in that having a secondary Drone combat option does add a time requirement for the training of relevant skills.

I'll echo ajax though in relation to Minmatar ships. Stay away from them if you are a new player, as they have a tendency to be quite whimsical in their roles, and often hard to equip as they are geared towards being 'fast' and carrying a combined turret/missile loadout.

Solo-combat oriented pilots (both pvp & pve) have a tendency to gravitate towards either Caldari of Gallente, due to their ability to dish out huge burst damage, or possess a sustained dps tank, respectively

[SurfD]

Thanks for all the info.

New question:  I decided to roll minmatar anway :P.  Havingfun shooting shit in a rifter, but was wondering.  should i actualy want to tank, what are some good options (for minmatar ships that is, probably at the cruiser level)?

 Also, I get the idea behind shield tanking (let it beat on your shields, boost with shield boosters as nessicary) but what about Armor tanking?  If it works the same way as shield tanking, isnt that kind of dangerous, as in order for them to beat on your armor, you have already let them beat down your shields, which are your first line of defense?

[gimpyone]

The minmatar have to train both armor and shield tanking skills.  As far as ships, my favorite cruiser was a rupture.

[SurfD]

another new question:

Diversify or specialize?   Is it worth it to diversify a bit, like trying to go for skills in 2 different racial ship groups (minmatar / galente for example), and 2 different turret types (projectile / hybrid), for greater variety and versatility or would you save that for later on, and just specialize in maximizing your native ship / weapon types in early on?

[JoeTF]

We will talk about diversification after you get past 40M SP, now get that t2 skills trained.

It's always better to have one good ship (thanks to skills) than choice between two medicore ones.

I would say that in longer run it's better to have good skills in single tree (armor, lasers and amarr ships) - you might want to change ship class you use (like hop from interceptors to capitals) and all those auxiliary skills you have trained for given tree will come handy.

[Ratadm]

Specialize in one race.  Generally when people say specialize they are talking about a single type of ship (generally a tech 2 variant) or ship class (cruisers) examples of specializations being  Hacs, intys, or command ships.

[Comstar]

Havingfun shooting shit in a rifter, but was wondering.  should i actualy want to tank, what are some good options (for minmatar ships that is, probably at the cruiser level)?

There is 4 Minmater cruisers:

Skyth: mining cruiser.
Stabber: Fast, light armoured. Heavy tackler, useful for pirating.
Rupture: Heavy damager dealer/tank.
Belicose: crappy EW cruiser. Do not use.

Also, I get the idea behind shield tanking (let it beat on your shields, boost with shield boosters as nessicary) but what about Armor tanking?  If it works the same way as shield tanking, isnt that kind of dangerous, as in order for them to beat on your armor, you have already let them beat down your shields, which are your first line of defense?

It depends on the attackers damage typees, and you can usually equip better resists as you have more low slots compared to medium slots. Vs rats, you can always equip enough armour harderners to be able to take enough damage indefinatly (or have enough extra plates to be able to kill them long before you run out).

In PvP, armour tanks are better than shield tanks, on average.

If you armour tank, you think of your shield as an extra bonus, but nothing you need to worry about. There are low slot cap power relays that actually REDUCE the speed of your shield recharge, but if you're armour tanking, you won't care.

Minmater *generally* armour tank, but you do have some ships that shield tank in each class of ships (for example, the tier 1 BC is a shield tank, the tier 2 an armour tank), so if you end up not getting armour/shield skills, you'll still be able to fly at least one ship of the class, though the expense between them can be high. I found vs rats, I was always able to progress my skills in a speed that it didn't matter myself (except I'm at 13mil skill points, and still can't use tech 2 guns).

[SurfD]

Next question:

I understand missiles, pretty strait foreward.

What about turrets?  Anyone got a moderately concise breakdown on the pros / cons of the different turret types?

[Kail]

What about turrets?  Anyone got a moderately concise breakdown on the pros / cons of the different turret types?

There are two subtypes of each type of turret; one long range and one short range.

Projectile:  I believe (though I may be wrong) that Minmatar generally get the best bonuses in projectile turrets.  The short range ones are autocannons, and the long range ones are artillery.  Projectile turrets eat ammo, but they take very little capacitor to fire, which is handy in PvP if you're being hit in the battery.

Hybrid: Generally, I think, Gallente and Caldari use hybrids.  Short range variants are blasters, long range variants are railguns.  Hybrid turrets take a bit of capacitor and also require ammo to fire.  They're the "middle of the road" gun between projectiles and lasers; I don't use them much, so someone else can probably give more info on their specific pros versus the other types.

Laser:  Usually, Amarr have the best laser bonuses.  Lasers don't use ammo (they use focusing crystals instead, which don't need to be reloaded unless they break), but they suck a fair amount of capacitor to fire.  Short range lasers are pulse lasers, long range are beam lasers.  As I understand it, this is one of the things that is supposed to be looked at in the near future; an Amarr ship firing lasers and running an armor rep is pulling huge amounts of cap, and even with the bonuses, Amarr ships tend to run out of energy quick, and an Amarr ship without cap is unable to do almost anything.

This has been linked on this board somewhere, but there's a fairly detailed (if wordy) description of what the various turret stats do here.

[Ratadm]

Next question:

I understand missiles, pretty strait foreward.

What about turrets?  Anyone got a moderately concise breakdown on the pros / cons of the different turret types?

Minmatar: Can do all damage types at least somewhat. No cap use.
Autocannons: Close range, no cap use. Ok damage, poor optimal range,  great falloff range.   
Artillery: Worst optimal range of all three long range, best fall off.  Great alpha strike so-so damage.

Gallente/Caldari: Thermal and Kinetic damage. Moderate Cap use.
Blasters: omgwtf damage.  Closest Range of all short range weapons best damage I believe.  They use cap.
Rails: Middle optimal of the long range weapons.  Better Dps than artillery and better tracking than artillery, use cap.

Amarr: EM and Thermal Damage. High Cap use.
Beam: Long range laser weapon. Don't know to much about lasers although they can only do em and thermal damage which isn't that great a combo because all armor has at least 60% base em resist and lots of people armor tank, also large cap use (may be getting mildly changed next patch).
Pulse: Close range laser weapon.  Best optimal of all three close range weapons.  Getting a 25% tracking boost next patch I believe.

Generally if you're flying a races class of ships you'll be using their weapons with a few possible exceptions (some people use minmatar weapons on heavily tanked ships because they don't use cap)

[ajax34i]

Ok, Turrets have different things affecting how well they hit:

1.  Range.  With stationary targets, a turret will hit 100% damage up to its Optimal range, then linearly less, all the way down to 0% damage at Optimal + 2 Falloff.

2.  Speed/Tracking.  The closer and faster your target orbits you (transversal speed), the more difficult it is for the turret to track it and shoot it.

3.  Target size / signature radius.  A gun will put its ammo within a circle of a certain radius.  If your target is bigger than this circle, it will get hit, but if it's smaller, it might not.  Like trying to hit a radio-controlled toy airplane with battleship main guns.

The combination of these things results in pretty much a bell-shaped curve for "maximum DPS", with the peak slightly inside the Optimal range.  Some guns (autocannons) are designed to work outside their Optimal (they do max damage somewhat outside it).  And also, it is very hard to hit small ships with big guns, or fast ships (Interceptors) with big guns.  At the same time, using small guns against big targets won't dent their defenses, cause the guns don't do enough damage.

So, one idea is to install your main weaponry for that ship so it hits your intended target, and then warp in or otherwise control the range you stay at with afterburners or webifiers (slow the other guy down).  In addition, you use secondary weaponry (drones, missiles, smartbombs, smaller guns) to deal with emergencies such as a small target getting close to you to jam you or get under your main guns' tracking.

Incidentally, for missiles, the speed and size of the target also matter, but it's more of a cut-off, they'll hit slow, big targets plenty well, but if your target gets under the threshhold of the missile specs, it suddenly hardly takes any damage.  Target painters and webifiers help by increasing the target's size and decreasing its speed.



As far as defenses go, shields and armor are equally vulnerable.  You won't have enough mounting points on a ship to install both kinds of defense.  So if you install shields (shield booster, shield extender(s), shield hardeners, shield boost amplifier), once they get through your shield, your armor is like cheese, it won't last more than a second. 

Numbers aren't exact, but you take a cruiser with 800 shields and 800 armor, and you put a couple over-sized (battleship) shield extenders on it, 4000 shields, then a couple hardeners for 60% damage reduction (now you have the equivalent of 10000 shields) and then you fill the low slots with shield power relays (to increase the default shield recharge rate), and you end up with a ship where the main defense (shields) is about 12-15 times better than your backup (armor).

You can do the same stuff with armor defenses.  They'll punch through your measly 800 shields in like 2 seconds then get stuck trying to eat through your hardened armor (hopefully).  Armor defense functions the same way, you just use armor plates, armor hardeners, and an armor repairer respectively.

Both kinds of defense require power-grid and capacitor recharge like there's no tomorrow (this is where the Engineering skills come into play), and the only difference is that shields take up all your mid slots to install (and possibly a few low slots to boost), whereas armor takes up all your low slots to install (and a few medium slots to boost capacitor or repair rates).  So, really, how many mid vs. low slots a ship has will dictate what defenses it's suited for.

[Grand Design]

On the topic of learning skills training, I would highly recommend that you don't fall into the trap of feeling obligated to train them first.  Yes, in the long run it will save you immense amounts of training time, but in the short run you will lose.  Right out of the box, you will want to train those skills that will help you immediately, and having a shorter training time on a skill that only takes an hour to train isn't going to make or break you now or later.  Besides, is it more intriguing to you to get that ship operation skill or to be able to say, "omg charisma 5, FINALLY!"

I had a friend whom I turned on to EvE.  When he rolled his character, he had already spent several days researching and planning his skill development.  We had long winded discussions about it, and we agreed that going for learning skills right away is the more intelligent choice.  However, three weeks later he was still limping around in a baby frigate and I was blasting pirates from the sky with my cruiser and making decent cash.

Long story short: I finally got around to training my learning skills up while bringing hell to the enemy in my BattleCruiser, he has a tricked out character with level five learning skills and doesn't play anymore.

[Slayerik]

From my experience with some Minmatar ships, a lot of them work better with what is called a passive tank.

Since your weapons use no cap, and if you make a passive tank (using Shield extenders on a Vagabond) you can allow speed to tank for you.

I had a hurricane setup that had no armor repairer on it, but had a 1600mm plate on it.  I buffed the resists on it using energized nanos, and you have a cap free tank that CANNOT BE NOS'ed!! Some people underestimate this, but in so many fights there is a Curse there NOSing, or a NOS Phoon or Domi. Having those good resists and high armor can make for a cheaper, dangerous, and effective 1 on 1 pirate ship.

But like they said, I'd avoid Minny ships. Gallente are great PVP ships, just work Gunnery armor and drones.

[Morat20]

But like they said, I'd avoid Minny ships. Gallente are great PVP ships, just work Gunnery armor and drones.

I'm going to have to go back to training guns soon, but....right now my missioning/ratting set-up is 5 lights, 5 mediums (T2 Gallente versions -- can't recall which they are), 2 salvagers, tractor, remote armor rep, light nos. I've got a T2 medium armor rep, energized nano, 1600mm plate, damage controls, and a cap recharger.

My drones kill shit faster than I can target sometimes. They can kill at max range (I haven't trained the EWAR drone skill yet) and the bulk of my drone skills are maxed. I don't need guns right now, so I've been focused on learning skills and getting some base stuff to 5 (Mechanic V, Energy Management 5, that sort of thing).

Admittedly, I only fly a Vex. I plan to upgrade to that nasty Gallente drone BC (Myrmidion?) soon, and will probably be forced to mount a gun or three. My gunnery skills are decent, but nothing special. (I flew an Incurses with triple 150mm rails -- that was a blast).

[Slayerik]

Myrmidons are sick.

[Megrim]

So is that lvl2 Caldari BC. God those things are nasty.

[Morat20]

Myrmidons are sick.

No kidding. I'm trying to build up enough cash to buy it, outfit it right, and be able to replace it. My experience with missions (and new ship sizes) is that it's a bit touch-and-go the first few missions with a new ship, especially if you're going up a level in missions. No point in getting a shiny new ship just to lose it and have to grind more before I can replace it.

But seeing the slots on that thing, the bonuses -- good lord. I've heard you can run a lot of L4s in that thing without sweating.