Sony cutting jobs

[Sairon]

Who's going to dominate the market is still largely undecided. I'm not surprised the Wii is selling better than the PS3, it's still living on the hype. And lets be honest, if you have a PS2 there's little reason to own a PS3 at this point unless you really have the money to spend. In fact, you should be surprised the PS3 is even selling as good as it is with it's current line up and bad press. However, Sony as a dev house is a force to be reckoned with, which might very well make the PS3 the winner down the road. The 360 is looking stronger and stronger, if they can manage to get some kick ass exclusives from genres they currently suck at they might win this generation. The only way for the Wii to win is if Sony or Microsoft fucks up. It's still a wonder to me how people can label it as a good buy at this point.

[Murgos]

Sony shot themselves in the foot when they didn't do whatever it was going to take to get Guitar Hero II, God of War II and FFXII as launch titles for the PS3.  There was no reason not to promise those dev houses whatever they wanted just to get them there.  I think that having those three games promised for launch or shortly thereafter would have sold a few million [more] PS3's.

The Wii, I think, is going to do great for the next two years and then the lack of HD is going to start being a problem as HDTV's become ubiquitous in homes.  Of course, by that time there may be so many installed that devs would be dumb not to develop for the platform and it may win by default (cause console history has shown that gamers follow the games, period).

HD is a real problem, I already don't want to watch anything not in HD and I've only had my TV a few months.  Heck, if it wasn't for Deadliest Catch and Mythbusters I wouldn't be watching anything not in HD as it is.  I will check every single HD channel before even contemplating going into the SD channels.

[Sairon]

Sony shot themselves in the foot when they didn't do whatever it was going to take to get Guitar Hero II, God of War II and FFXII as launch titles for the PS3.  There was no reason not to promise those dev houses whatever they wanted just to get them there.  I think that having those three games promised for launch or shortly thereafter would have sold a few million [more] PS3's.

I totally agree here. If Sony would've have those 3 as launch titles labeled as exclusives they would no doubt be fighting at the top right now. Why God of War II didn't become a PS3 exclusive is beyond me, it's after all developed by Sony iirc. Of course the game sales for GoW II wouldn't have been nearly as good if it were a PS3 exclusive though.

[Rasix]

So the primary measure for RPG quality is graphical? Whuuu?

Yes, that's what I said. Don't be a donk.

In that post, you said nothing else about RPG's but about how much the Wii's graphics suck. So a reasonable assumption is that you only give a shit about an RPG if the graphics are high-res and come on a Blu-Ray disc. One can assume you also want a decent story in the RPG, but that wasn't what you said, and since you love JRPG's so much, one shouldn't even assume that.

This is all pretty much a moot point.  When's the last time a Nintendo system had a good, exclusive RPG that wasn't on one of its handhelds? And yah, I'm pretty sure any RPG coming out exclusively for the Wii would look like crap to the point of having the "Arcanum" effect.

Also, I fail to see why minigames engender so much hate around here. If they are fun, who cares? They are easy and cheap to make, they appeal to people who aren't traditionally game purchasers, meaning there's more money coming into the industry from places that the industry wasn't pulling before which means EVERYBODY WINS.

I actually like the approach EA is taking with FIFA 08. They are giving you the same FIFA action you'd normally get in this year's version, and they are adding a multiplayer minigame in Ronaldhino's Footii Party. While I may play it once and pass on it, others might be attracted to just that part of it. Everybody wins.

If Ronaldhino's Footii party appeals to you in the slightest, just turn in your gamer card now.  Yah, that's what soccer game's need, little cutesy, crap mini games.  Minigames are universally derided here because most of us aren't between the ages of 8-14 anymore and also because they're repetitive crap we've already seen in another wrapping.  Minigames are fun if you're stuck playing a handheld on your commute or when you're trying not to work at the office.  Otherwise, they get old.  My nephews though, can't get enough of minigames and adore Mario Party.  At least they also like Smash Bros Melee and tend to play that more, so.. there's hope. 

I find it difficult to care much about RPG's on consoles or on PC's anymore, because most of them have evolved about as much as MMOG's. I'm actually burned out on RPG's, especially fantasy types. I can't even bother to play Oblivion on my PC. All I see if shiney shiney pixel shader shiney foozle kill level cutscene fin. Mass Effect has me intrigued if only for it being Sci-Fi, but I won't be getting a 360 before Xmas at the earliest so /meh.

Can you give me your sleeve length for your straight jacket? Seriously, you're working off bad info man.  It's like you're writing your post with nothing but refrigerator magnets.

[HaemishM]

So we want more minigames in our MMOG's, but adding minigames into other games like the FIFA thing is bad?

Also, minigames are good party games, for people who are, you know, not hardcore buy anything with big doe-eyed short-skirted women and angsty fem boys gamers. I'm certainly not going to be paying $50 for Rayman Raving Rabbits, but I don't have a religious objection to the existence of said games on a system I own.

[Velorath]

The Wii outselling the PS3 five to one in Japan really doesn't mean anything. PS2 games will always outsell it and they ARE from the same generation.

Yeah, it's not like the Wii had 8 titles in the top 50 sales for the 6/4 - 6/10, as opposed to the PS2's 3 titles.  Yep, the PS2 games sure are posing a big challenge to Wii software sales.

[Rasix]

So we want more minigames in our MMOG's, but adding minigames into other games like the FIFA thing is bad?

We do?  More minigames would be a means to an end, but not a goal.  And minigames + MMO sometimes can do more harm than good, ie EQ2 crafting.

A minigame makes is a good addition if it allows for more strategy, user interaction, and less dependency on a combination of repetition and dice rolls. With the FIFA example, it's just fluff. It's a spoiler on your riding lawnmower.

[Roac]

The Wii outselling the PS3 five to one in Japan really doesn't mean anything. PS2 games will always outsell it

YTD puts Wii and PS2 neck and neck.  About half the sales are Wii Sports/Wii Play, so if you take that out it gives PS2 over Wii at 2:1.  If you think this shows the strength though, you're quite mistaken; the install base of the PS2 is over 20 times that of the Wii in Japan.  Meaning, the Wii is selling 10x more games per console than the PS2.  Worse, the PS2 sales are dropping.  PS3 sales are dropping (oh, and sales of Wii to PS3 are 5:1in favor of the Wii, excluding the above 2 items).  Wii software sales are climbing.

Also, you really don't want to bring secondary products into the mix.  The DS counts for over half of total software sales in Japan.  The real clincher is that the PS3 really needs to do well in Japan, because this is home turf.  The 360 is unlikely to ever take off there, so Sony only has to work with Nintendo.  This is a huge reputation hit, and that's something you cannot afford there. 

[Abel]

You people are talking how badly PS3 is losing out to Wii in Japan, but actually in the US it's barely any better. Below are the May 2007 US hardware sales published by NPD group (and c&p from Gamespot):

MAY 2007 US RETAIL HARDWARE SALES (All numbers approximate)
1) DS: 423,000
2) Wii: 338,000
3) PlayStation Portable: 221,000
4) PlayStation 2: 188,000
5) Xbox 360: 155,000
6) PlayStation 3: 82,000
7) Game Boy Advance: 81,000

Wii outsells PS3 4 to 1 in the US, in fact it even sells considerably more then PS2 and PS3 combined. And things aren't much brighter in the portable market. Even if the Wii is a short-lived fad, the 360 still outsells the PS3 2 to 1.

And for those who think those PS2 titles are shifting so many more units then the Wii titles (though the ranking if Wii Play is a bit strange ...):

MAY 2007 US RETAIL SOFTWARE SALES (By volume; all numbers approximate)
1) Pokemon Diamond (DS - Nintendo) 331,200
2) Mario Party 8 (Wii - Nintendo) 314,400
3) Spider-Man 3 (PS2 - Activision) 248,700
4) Pokémon Pearl (DS - Nintendo) 238,000
5) Wii Play (with Wii Remote - Wii) 249,000

It's still early days, but it sure doesn't look very good for Sony at the moment. PS2 sales will only go downwards from now on and PS3 remains at the bottom of the sales ranking.

[schild]

The best selling game this year will still be Madden for the PS2. Followed by the 360 version.

Do you see what you just posted, those are all first party games. It's The Gamecube Redux. It's the exact same way the Cube burst out of the gates. It's like owning a Mac. You buy the Mac for Mac software and other shit. You buy a Nintendo for Nintendo shit. Whenever a new Mac product comes out, sales are strong as a motherfucker. Then it tapers off (excluding the Ipod and DS/GBA - leaders of their field). Once everyone who wanted that Mac and frothed for it gets it, it's not going to be on the list like that. Same thing will happen with the Wii. Third parties simply aren't going to support it. There's a reason why there was SHOCK AND AWE when RE4 was announced as a Cube exclusive. And there's a reason it came out on the PS2. All of the biggest titles in the world are graphic whore titles anyway (FF, RE, etc) and the Wii simply isn't the system for them.

Either way, whatever. I could care less what PS3 sales are right now and I couldn't care less about the people who knock it because of the price. Fuck'em. That system is the single most solid piece of electronics I've ever owned, works FLAWLESSLY, and awesome game support is guaranteed. Sony's first and second party stuff these days is better than Nintendo's anyway - that being Jaffe, Ueda, Insomniac, etc.

[Big Gulp]

I will check every single HD channel before even contemplating going into the SD channels.

Heh, that's exactly how I watch TV.  Channels 770-780 FTW!  I'll cycle through those, and most likely land on Discovery HD.  SD channels make me want to take a shower.

Charter just needs to get off it's ass and start picking up more HD programming.

[Velorath]

The best selling game this year will still be Madden for the PS2. Followed by the 360 version.

Um... I'm guessing Halo 3 has a good chance at beating both the PS2 and 360 versions of Madden combined.  Last year the PS2 version sold 1.6 million and the 360 version sold 760,000.  Meanwhile Gamestop/EBgames announced last month that they had 4 million pre-orders of Halo 3.

[Simond]

The best selling game this year will still be Madden for the PS2. Followed by the 360 version.

Do you see what you just posted, those are all first party games.

...at the moment. Seriously, did anybody outside of the most rabid, die-hard Nintendo fanboi expect to see sales charts like the one below for console sales?

If anyone had said, 18 months ago, that Nintendo's new console would be outselling the PS3 & the 360 combined two-to-one, the men in white coats would have been called. Therefore, the current crop of games were mostly developed for the PS3 & 360, and ported to the Wii. Now? The 3rd party developers will sign up for the Wii...frankly, they can't afford not to.

[Chimpy]

This thread has developed into very much a "My console of choice will rule all and the Wii is just a fad because it does not have 'good graphics' ".

Somewhat entertaining, but very much not a bellweather as to how the entire console plot will unfold. Nintendo did not roust Atari in a year, Sony did not beat Nintendo in a year, and there have been cases where a console did very well at launch and for a while after and then lagged behind (Sega Genesis).

Rome was not built in a day folks, and it also took several hundred years to finally collapse on itself.

[Rasix]

I pondered what to write for a while and tried some stuff out, but instead I'll just post what makes me chuckle. 

[Chimpy]

I pondered what to write for a while and tried some stuff out, but instead I'll just post what makes me chuckle. 

Thank you, I'll be here all weeek.

 :-D

[WindupAtheist]

So wait, the Wii is outselling the PS3 by a 5 to 1 margin in Japan?

As in "Oh noes, no HD and people finally care!" could cut Wii sales in half, while "Hey we cut the price and finally made some games!" could double PS3 sales, and the Wii would still be in the lead?

Bwaaahahahahaha.

[Murgos]

So wait, the Wii is outselling the PS3 by a 5 to 1 margin in Japan?

As in "Oh noes, no HD and people finally care!" could cut Wii sales in half, while "Hey we cut the price and finally made some games!" could double PS3 sales, and the Wii would still be in the lead?

Bwaaahahahahaha.

Are you the idiot I had the discussion with about rates of change being more important than specific data points?  If not, you should go look into it.

[Azazel]

These console dick-measuring/circle-jerk/doomcasting threads should really be merged to create a monster to rival the varios SWG threads.

The changing/new facts (ie sales figures) areinteresting to read, but the arguments and opinion remain pretty much the same from month to month, thread to thread.

[Kageru]

I'm sure there will be an HD capable wii, in 2-5 years when the market penetration of HDTV grows. SOE may have (stupidly) believed they could make a console that would stand unchanged for 10 years, but nintendo has no reason to follow that plan when they *make money* on selling new consoles.

[schild]

SCEA, not SOE.

[Roac]

It's the exact same way the Cube burst out of the gates.

GC didn't bust out of the gates.  It had a launch that wasn't bad, but wasn't better than the PS2.  In contrast, the Wii has sold over a third of the total units that the GC did over its entire life, and has numbers at 5 months that the PS2 still hadn't reached after a year.  This is nothing like the GC launch.

Either way, whatever. I could care less what PS3 sales are right now and I couldn't care less about the people who knock it because of the price. Fuck'em. That system is the single most solid piece of electronics I've ever owned, works FLAWLESSLY, and awesome game support is guaranteed. Sony's first and second party stuff these days is better than Nintendo's anyway - that being Jaffe, Ueda, Insomniac, etc.

It's an incredible piece of hardware, no doubt.  Doesn't matter if no one is buying them.  The problem is that while Sony is facing the possibility of a 5m install base by Christmas, Nintendo is looking at 20m.  Developers of big AAA titles are going to be attracted to the PS3, but with such a limited install base, there is huge risk by going exclusive.  If Sony can't capture at least some exclusives, they'll watch as the 360 tears into their profits on high end games.  They'll also be undercut by Nintendo who's busy eating up everything that *isn't* a $10m production.  Oh, and they get to benefit every time they want to tie in anything they can into DS. 

The PS3 has... a massive, MASSIVE engine that is geared to run extremely expensively produced games.  That few people are willing to pony up the money for, because there are so few customers ready to buy them.  What Sony has forgotten is a very basic business tenant; that even if your goal is to sell product X, you also have to sell products A, B, and C.  Not because you give a shit about those items, but becuase you need to stock your shelves with enough stuff to get people in the door.  Because even if A only sells 1% of what X (the thing you really care about) does, you have 1000x times the number of "other stuffs" compared to the Xs.  Your large library of smaller titles is used to get people in the door.  The 'hardcore' types only care about the Xs, but that's ignoring the rules of business; that even if those customers are your MVPs, you can't fund the production of what they want without also catering to a much larger customer base.

[schild]

I really want to see the third party attach rates for the DS, PSP, PS3, and Wii.

I suspect that even the DS' attach rates don't touch the PSPs. Even with 10M+ more in the hands of the people.

No matter how you slice it, your equation is missing the Big N, which is the variable by which Nintendo is going to kick your ass if you produce something for their system.

[Fabricated]

I'm still convinced the Wii will turn into GameCube 2 unless they turn around and start pulling big third-party games out of their ass.

The 360 doing well in America is gonna fuck the Wii here in my opinion since the PS3/360 are on relatively equal footing in power, thus meaning that the game design/art assets don't have to be fiddled with as much for ports. The Wii's lack of horsepower is going to kill chances for a lot of ports (and maybe even some middleware, period).

Unless Nintendo is gonna just start busting out a constant stream of first-party titles, the Wii will eventually end up "Box that Plays Smash Brothers" v2.0.

Not that it prevented me from putting hundreds of hours into Smash Brothers Melee with my friends. Nintendo doesn't make much money from me playing a single title and nothing else though.

[Roac]

I really want to see the third party attach rates for the DS, PSP, PS3, and Wii.

I suspect that even the DS' attach rates don't touch the PSPs. Even with 10M+ more in the hands of the people.

In the US, the DS attachment rate is 2:1 that of the PSP.  The Wii is 2:1 that of the PS3.  In Japan, the DS and PSP are somewhat close, though with the DS leading.  The Wii is crushing the PS3 - it's a no contest.  This holds true whether you look at recent software sales vs total install base, or total software sales vs install base.

[schild]

Third party. Not first party. I wager, you take a look at the third party numbers (a number you're never ever going to find), it's not the same.

I'm pretty sure the 360 attach numbers are a stagging 4.4 or something at this point. And it's nearly all third party. MGS, Bungie and Lionhead simply haven't produced jack shit yet.

[Velorath]

I really want to see the third party attach rates for the DS, PSP, PS3, and Wii.

I suspect that even the DS' attach rates don't touch the PSPs. Even with 10M+ more in the hands of the people.

No matter how you slice it, your equation is missing the Big N, which is the variable by which Nintendo is going to kick your ass if you produce something for their system.

Does 3rd party stuff not sell well because of competition from Nintendo, or does it not sell well because there just hasn't been a lot of good 3rd party games developed for Nintendo systems in the past 2 generations?  I'm sure RE4 sold pretty well on the GC (and would have sold even better if Capcom hadn't announced the PS2 version until after the game was released), and so far the Wii version is selling pretty well in Japan.  I'm guessing FFXII: RW and DQIX are going to do well on the DS.

Nintendo games aren't really flooding the market in the US to the point where people are buying those up rather than 3rd party games.  It's just that most of the stuff released so far have been rush jobs from developers who didn't think the Wii was going to be as big a hit as it's been.

[Merusk]

Looks like we'll be able to see if Blu-Ray helps sales any, now that it seems to have won the format war.  Yeah, it's only one announcement, but it's a big'un.  Particularly since they mention Blu-Ray was being rented 70% of the time over HD-DVD (Though one might think that's because of the movies offered more than the format itself.)

[Big Gulp]

Looks like we'll be able to see if Blu-Ray helps sales any, now that it seems to have won the format war.  Yeah, it's only one announcement, but it's a big'un.  Particularly since they mention Blu-Ray was being rented 70% of the time over HD-DVD (Though one might think that's because of the movies offered more than the format itself.)

In the long run I don't think either format will matter when it comes to movie viewing.  I bought an upscaling DVD player for $70, and frankly I can't tell the difference between movies on that and movies on one of the HD channels my cable provider has.

Either HD format is expensive and the studios are again playing the idiotic "split up the offerings between two incompatible formats" game.  Regular old DVD's ubiquity trumps that every time.

[Roac]

Either HD format is expensive and the studios are again playing the idiotic "split up the offerings between two incompatible formats" game.  Regular old DVD's ubiquity trumps that every time.

Studios don't really have a choice, given that they're not the ones inventing the technology.  All they can do is follow the lead that's set; pick one, or both, but you can't afford to ignore HD.  And really, studios don't want to because it means they get to sell the same movies to customers a third(+) time.

[Yegolev]

Since I sometimes love this console dickslapping - and today is one of those days - here's a Gamasutra analysis of sales numbers.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=14341

* 2.8 million Nintendo DS systems were sold from June 2005 to May 2006.
* 6.7 million Nintendo DS systems were sold from June 2006 to May 2007

What event could have caused yearly sales to double? Before June 2006, the only system available was the original Nintendo DS, colloquially called the DS Phat. Then in June 2006 the new Nintendo DS Lite launched, and that event kicked off the incredible monthly sales we now take for granted in each successive NPD report.

For example, the Nintendo DS was averaging about 150,000 systems per month in the six months leading up to the launch of the Lite. After the Lite was released it hasn't sold fewer than 239,000 systems in any given month and more often sells in excess of 400,000 per month.

Just to make clear how the success of the Nintendo DS is likely tied to the sleeker hardware, the original Nintendo DS took about 19 months to sell just under 5 million systems. The Lite version, however, was able to move that many systems in less than half the time -- close to 8 months to sell 4.7 million systems.

[Sairon]

360/PS3 titles doesn't need to be as expensive to produce as it is if rightly priced middleware would appear. That's what's going to revolutionize the industry and lower the high development costs to manageable levels again, perhaps even lower. Just look at Cryengine & UE3. I don't know any other industry where it's common practise to reinvent the wheel on a project to project basis.

Also, HD enabling the Wii isn't as easy as just ducktaping a HDMI port on the back of it and call it a day. It will requiring new hardware and the games aren't designed for being played on HD.

The system war doesn't really start for real until christmas time this year.

[Big Gulp]

but you can't afford to ignore HD.  And really, studios don't want to because it means they get to sell the same movies to customers a third(+) time.

Oh, I have no doubt that the studios would like to double (triple?) dip us while they still have the chance, but we're at the brink of physical media's death.

We'll have HD video, it just won't come on plastic.

[Righ]

What event could have caused yearly sales to double?

People holding off upgrading their hand-helds for a year or so to see whether the Sony PSP would have many games of merit. Nope. Better get a DS then.

So how's the NW-HD1 doing against the Zune and iPod?

[schild]

The PSP is going to come back in the big way.