Patching an MMO: The pain. Oiy! The pain!

[Venkman]

I realize MMO development is hard. Tons of assets, lots of code, a great deal of concern over security and data integrity.

But the thing that really gets me, and the biggest reason why I rarely pick up old MMORPGs even when I'd really like to, is patching the install from my launch disks.

I don't keep games on my PC indefinitely. I like to operate with a clean hard drive, and multi-gig installs I haven't used in months are cleanup fodder. And yet, MMOs (if you like them) constantly evolve. I'm one of the mindless drones that went back to WoW when BC launched. I only started liking EQ2 a year after it launched when they hit Publish 19 and 20. I went back to EQ1 eight times.

But each revisit was because I had those apps and files already installed. There's a much longer list of games I haven't had on my new computer at all and have long since been removed from the old one. While I still have the install discs, the prospects of patching keep me from doing so. It's worse than doing a clean install and updating of a freakin' operating system for chrissakes.

It's to the point where I keep any new WoW trial disc I can get from magazines. I know at least that's only a few versions back, so the patching process won't suck. And while I think SOE definitely has a much more customer-friendly patching system (they, like, host the stuff on robust patch servers and stuff), the biggest thing that keeps me from checking out Planetside and SWG again is the time it'll take to patch from my launch CDs. And that assumes they'd work.

Launch
Patch
Reboot launcher
Patch
Reboot launcher
Patch
... <times a zillion>
Patch

I wish for a better way. I'd say this is one advantage browser-based MMOGs have over their install cousins, but then those games are pretty lightweight. Nicktropolis is not WoW, no matter what corners people think Blizzard cut asset-wise. And forget EQ2 or LoTRO. You're not going to stream all those assets from some faraway server in realtime. You're just not. Not for some time yet anyway.

Therefore, the only things I can think of is smart cumulative patches, where each patch is accompanied by a cumulative patch. Or maybe previous account holders can download a current install of the client after they re-up their account through the web portal account management system (you hear me Linden??).

These are big overheads for a company to incur. But I wonder if that would be offset by higher amount of curious people  returning. Each time someone comes back, that's $10-15. If you can't keep them forever, at least you can get them each time they're interested.

Thoughts?

Or am I the only one that likes to keep a clean hard drive?

[Merusk]

No, I agree.  I don't get how zones come in to play here, tho.

Hell, SOE needs to update their Planetside and EQ2 downloadables as well.  When I went to PS last year, I got the newest file I could find, and still spent about 3 hours patching.   After installing the "Play the Fae" download, it took a DAY for the patches to complete.

Seriously, you want people to play your game by giving out this trial,  how about making it so they don't spend the first day JUST FUCKING PATCHING.    I nearly uninstalled what I had, just based on the patch time alone.  I'm sure there's plenty of folks who do just that.

[slog]

I realize MMO development is hard. Tons of assets, lots of code, a great deal of concern over security and data integrity.

But the thing that really gets me, and the biggest reason why I rarely pick up old MMORPGs even when I'd really like to, is patching the install from my launch disks.

I don't keep games on my PC indefinitely. I like to operate with a clean hard drive, and multi-gig installs I haven't used in months are cleanup fodder. And yet, MMOs (if you like them) constantly evolve. I'm one of the mindless drones that went back to WoW when BC launched. I only started liking EQ2 a year after it launched when they hit Publish 19 and 20. I went back to EQ1 eight times.

But each revisit was because I had those apps and files already installed. There's a much longer list of games I haven't had on my new computer at all and have long since been removed from the old one. While I still have the install discs, the prospects of patching keep me from doing so. It's worse than doing a clean install and updating of a freakin' operating system for chrissakes.

It's to the point where I keep any new WoW trial disc I can get from magazines. I know at least that's only a few versions back, so the patching process won't suck. And while I think SOE definitely has a much more customer-friendly patching system (they, like, host the stuff on robust patch servers and stuff), the biggest thing that keeps me from checking out Planetside and SWG again is the time it'll take to patch from my launch CDs. And that assumes they'd work.

Launch
Patch
Reboot launcher
Patch
Reboot launcher
Patch
... <times a zillion>
Patch

I wish for a better way. I'd say this is one advantage browser-based MMOGs have over their install cousins, but then those games are pretty lightweight. Nicktropolis is not WoW, no matter what corners people think Blizzard cut asset-wise. And forget EQ2 or LoTRO. You're not going to stream all those assets from some faraway server in realtime. You're just not. Not for some time yet anyway.

Therefore, the only things I can think of is smart cumulative patches, where each patch is accompanied by a cumulative patch. Or maybe previous account holders can download a current install of the client after they re-up their account through the web portal account management system (you hear me Linden??).

These are big overheads for a company to incur. But I wonder if that would be offset by higher amount of curious people  returning. Each time someone comes back, that's $10-15. If you can't keep them forever, at least you can get them each time they're interested.

Thoughts?

Or am I the only one that likes to keep a clean hard drive?

Are you the guy that though Vanguard was a good game?

[bhodi]

Er, WoW has cumulative patches every so often...

[Modern Angel]

I invariably leave every reinstall patching overnight so it doesn't irritate me. That's just not right.

[Zonk]

Vanguard is the worst offender for this, though. Every time I'm low on HDD space I drop Vanguard. I've done it three times now. They really need to tighten that stuff up, and then delete the now-useless crap off of your hard drive.

Planetside and SWG: They actually have pretty painless installs now. Yes, it takes a while, but there weren't any launcher restarts that I saw. I pretty much brought it up, it scanned, and then did its thing. No interaction required.

It'll be even easier if they ever get that uber-launcher thing rolled out.

[Venkman]

Yea, I flubbed the subject. I was headed in a different direction initially when I realized streaming the entirety of a zone when you zone in would bite more than pre-patching :)

I invariably leave every reinstall patching overnight so it doesn't irritate me. That's just not right.

For a cumulative patch, I'd do the same thing. Trouble is, I've found cumulative patches a rare thing. WoW only seems to do it every full tenth-version update (1.1, 1.2, etc). I don't think there's been one since 2.0 though. And prior, whoa, a bear.

But for incremental patches, ya sorta need to be at the PC (or VPN'ing from another one, as I'd taken to doing when I cared that much). There's always something, like having to log in to be told to get something new, or the patcher itself being out of date.

After installing the "Play the Fae" download, it took a DAY for the patches to complete.

Same for me! And this was a freaking trial demo. I know it links right into the main world, so needs to be as up to date as the core game. But come on. This is your first interaction with a potentially new customer. I can't possibly see why it'd be so hard to always ensure that's the most up to date client you offer. Time-consuming yes. Worth pissing off someone who already cost you money by eating your bandwidth but doesn't have the patience to get the whole thing, much less convert to a paying customwer? Not a chance.

[shiznitz]

Bottom line, 14 day trials don't need to install and patch every zone in the game.

[Kail]

Yea, I flubbed the subject. I was headed in a different direction initially when I realized streaming the entirety of a zone when you zone in would bite more than pre-patching :)

I think Guild Wars does something like this.  The initial client is really tiny, but whenever you enter a new area for the first time, it sits there loading for a few minutes.  I could be wrong, though, and (of course) it's not like the game world is really very dynamic.

[Akkori]

For SWG, all I did was burn the entire directory onto a DVD, so if I ever get the desire to take a peek, I can install from the original disc's, then after it's done, just copy over the DVD files, overwriting everything. Not pretty but it saves me many hours. I had been wishing for over 2 years of playing it to see a new SWG install disk. IT wouldn't even cost them much. Just put up an ISO file to download and we'll burn it ourself... on DVD, of course.

[Modern Angel]

I promise that the last time I did an EQ2 install I just let it run overnight and it was fine in the morning. Unless the drugs are making me crazy again...

[Jerrith]

Yea, I flubbed the subject. I was headed in a different direction initially when I realized streaming the entirety of a zone when you zone in would bite more than pre-patching :)

I think Guild Wars does something like this.  The initial client is really tiny, but whenever you enter a new area for the first time, it sits there loading for a few minutes.  I could be wrong, though, and (of course) it's not like the game world is really very dynamic.

Yeah, Guild Wars really gets this right.  Tiny, tiny executable (less than a meg?) that downloads the most recent code and required assets, and then you're in the client, where it streams what you need to you, as you need it.  It's really nice and I can't think of any game that has done it better.  The only issue I ever had with it was back during beta, where when playing pickup PVP matches, you'd run into a high percentage of people who hadn't downloaded the map yet, resulting in games where your team is down a member at the start, because they're still downloading, waiting to get in.  Obviously, during release, with more regular players, this went away completely. 

[MikeRozak]

GDC or Austin should have a contest for how long it takes to install a MMORPG. Allow companies to provide their own participants. Start with a clean PC, retail discs, and let them install (and register a user account). See how long it takes before their character actually appears in the world and is able to do something. Most MMORPGs are 3-4 hours, which at least an order of magnitude beyond acceptable.

Also, count the number of key clicks, mouse clicks, window switches, etc. that occur.

[Trippy]

Yea, I flubbed the subject. I was headed in a different direction initially when I realized streaming the entirety of a zone when you zone in would bite more than pre-patching :)

I think Guild Wars does something like this.  The initial client is really tiny, but whenever you enter a new area for the first time, it sits there loading for a few minutes.  I could be wrong, though, and (of course) it's not like the game world is really very dynamic.

Yeah, Guild Wars really gets this right.  Tiny, tiny executable (less than a meg?) that downloads the most recent code and required assets, and then you're in the client, where it streams what you need to you, as you need it.  It's really nice and I can't think of any game that has done it better.  The only issue I ever had with it was back during beta, where when playing pickup PVP matches, you'd run into a high percentage of people who hadn't downloaded the map yet, resulting in games where your team is down a member at the start, because they're still downloading, waiting to get in.  Obviously, during release, with more regular players, this went away completely. 

The Guild Wars patching system is horribly flawed. The "on the fly" background patching/steaming is okay when you are targeting the game for S. Korea where everybody has high bandwidth connections (and incidentally where almost nobody plays the game). It's another thing when the people playing the game have a wide variety of connection types including lower bandwidth ones like my own. The game tries to be "clever" and only download what it thinks you need to get back into the game. Unfortunately given the wide variety of locations you can travel it very often guesses wrong and when you move somewhere you end up with a loading screen while it downloads more stuff for you, and on a slow connection that can take a while.

What it should do is continue to stream content when you are sitting at the login screen instead of stopping when it thinks you have just enough. That way people like myself with low bandwidth connections can leave it sitting there overnight to have it download *everything*, and not just what it thinks I need to get into the game.
 

[Trippy]

Yea, I flubbed the subject. I was headed in a different direction initially when I realized streaming the entirety of a zone when you zone in would bite more than pre-patching :)

You can edit your own topic titles, you know.

[Trippy]

Therefore, the only things I can think of is smart cumulative patches, where each patch is accompanied by a cumulative patch. Or maybe previous account holders can download a current install of the client after they Rep their account through the web portal account management system (you hear me Linden??).

How is a cumulative patch a better system? Are you saying you want to burn those to a DVD or something? Same question about downloading a current client (which some games like CoH do provide). The download time for redownloading the entire client is going to take longer than patching an older exisiting client so I not sure you would be saving any time or effort there.

Edit: fixed quoting

[Trippy]

GDC or Austin should have a contest for how long it takes to install a MMORPG. Allow companies to provide their own participants. Start with a clean PC, retail discs, and let them install (and register a user account). See how long it takes before their character actually appears in the world and is able to do something. Most MMORPGs are 3-4 hours, which at least an order of magnitude beyond acceptable.

Yup it's a big problem. Even playing on launch day you will run into this (assuming you can even login) since many if not most of them while have changed the client between the time the "golden master" was created and when the service actually launches (last minute bug fixes and stuff).

[Fordel]

What it should do is continue to stream content when you are sitting at the login screen instead of stopping when it thinks you have just enough. That way people like myself with low bandwidth connections can leave it sitting there overnight to have it download *everything*, and not just what it thinks I need to get into the game.
 

It does this though... doesn't it? I could swear it did that for me the last time I played. The little download lighting bolt was in the corner while I was fiddling with new characters well past any point of it downloading actual character information.

-edit x2-

Yea, it's doing this right now, as I type. 

They even have an option to hide the login UI so you can just loop the login background like a screen saver while you download, never noticed that before.

[Trippy]

What it should do is continue to stream content when you are sitting at the login screen instead of stopping when it thinks you have just enough. That way people like myself with low bandwidth connections can leave it sitting there overnight to have it download *everything*, and not just what it thinks I need to get into the game.

It does this though... doesn't it? I could swear it did that for me the last time I played. The little download lighting bolt was in the corner while I was fiddling with new characters well past any point of it downloading actual character information.

I haven't played in a while so they may have changed things but...yes it will still download stuff when you get past the login screen, and then when you are in the game it will continue to download stuff in the background if it thinks it needs to. However, if you let it sit there at the login screen it'll eventually stop. And then, depending on how old your client is, when you are in the game, if you move somewhere "new" it'll still give you a loading screen while it downloads stuff it didn't bother to download earlier. Everytime I go back to Guild Wars to try out a new expansion preview or whatnot I always let it sit at the login screen overnight and inevitably when I'm in the game it still gives me loading screens as I move around.

[Trippy]

-edit x2-

Yea, it's doing this right now, as I type. 

They even have an option to hide the login UI so you can just loop the login background like a screen saver while you download, never noticed that before.

Yup like I said it'll do that and it'll eventually stop *but* depending on how old your client is there's still may be content it hasn't downloaded yet. If you play regularly you probably will never notice this but I play it like once every six months and it does that to me every time.

[schild]

I like the station launcher...

[Simond]

I like the station launcher...

Yeah, SOE's file layout & patch process is one thing they got absolutely right: Zone data, character models, etc as discreet files, file scan to find any which are obsolete, download to patch just those specific files.

[Nonentity]

Yeah, I'm happy with the station launcher.

Can the station launcher do the trickle downloading like the NCSoft one can? It uses minimal bandwidth and downloads it while you're doing other stuff.

FAKE EDIT: No, not trickle like pee.

[Venkman]

Yea, here too. The only issue I have with SOE is the patching just to play the Fae. 4gb final install. FOUR GIGABYTES, 3.17 of which is patched after downloading the comparatively light 83mb initial file. And all I wanted to do was check it out to see what the new race was like and the new graphics style.And that after waiting 25 seconds for the Flash-based EQ2 Fae page to load just so I could get info on where to download. And that before realizing I can't reup my old account to try something I might have fucking re-upped for because they're hell-bent on only talking to potential new customers rather than someone who's been on and off again with them for seven freakin' years (who's got the higher probably of conversion?).

Look, if it's a trial, give the trial. If I convert up, I'm also so into the game I then don't care about walking away overnight to patch.

So my beef with their system isn't in the tech, it's in the method of use.

Yeah, Guild Wars really gets this right. 

I actually don't like this system much though because as has been noted, everyone's got a different connection to the net. I'd hate to be in the group with the tank on 56k.

The download time for redownloading the entire client is going to take longer than patching an older exisiting client so I not sure you would be saving any time or effort there.

I'd rather do that. Like Modern Angel said, let it run overnight. But it's those times when there's a bunch of micropatches that need to happen sequentially, when I need to sit at my computer so I can activate each one when the prior one is down, it's then I get really stabby. WoW I think is the biggest offender here in recent memory. SWG was bad for a time, though it's been awhile.

NC Soft uses a background downloader linked to their new Launcher which covers all of their titles. I think LoTRO does too. This system I like a lot. Only good for broadband users of course, but there's enough now to at least offer that as an option.

@MikeRozak: Absolutely. One reason I think the genre is so successful with only a few playstyles. Just to GET the game working requires you be an Achiever :)

[Trippy]

The download time for redownloading the entire client is going to take longer than patching an older exisiting client so I not sure you would be saving any time or effort there.

I'd rather do that. Like Modern Angel said, let it run overnight. But it's those times when there's a bunch of micropatches that need to happen sequentially, when I need to sit at my computer so I can activate each one when the prior one is down, it's then I get really stabby. WoW I think is the biggest offender here in recent memory. SWG was bad for a time, though it's been awhile.

NC Soft uses a background downloader linked to their new Launcher which covers all of their titles. I think LoTRO does too. This system I like a lot. Only good for broadband users of course, but there's enough now to at least offer that as an option.

WoW has a fucked up patching system cause the fucking BT client is only designed to handle a single cumulative patch file which then has to run outside of the BT client to patch the files. Other launchers are not so brain damaged.

The SOE Launch Pad patcher, for example, can download individual files and/or individual patches and patch the files while you are still running the Launch Pad. In fact if you just have Launch Pad and the appropriate control files for a particular game it will happily download everything you need, one file at a time. It's only when Launch Pad itself needs to be patched do you get the restart problem and I can't remember if Launch Pad does it but some of them can even restart themselves so it's totally "hands-free".

[Jerrith]

-edit x2-

Yea, it's doing this right now, as I type. 

They even have an option to hide the login UI so you can just loop the login background like a screen saver while you download, never noticed that before.

Yup like I said it'll do that and it'll eventually stop *but* depending on how old your client is there's still may be content it hasn't downloaded yet. If you play regularly you probably will never notice this but I play it like once every six months and it does that to me every time.

Good point, they don't send you the data for individual areas until you actually attempt to go to these areas.  For people with low bandwidth connections, a "download everything" button would be nice, but I wonder if there might be a significant cost savings behind not having one.

[Merusk]

Yea, here too. The only issue I have with SOE is the patching just to play the Fae. 4gb final install. FOUR GIGABYTES, 3.17 of which is patched after downloading the comparatively light 83mb initial file. And all I wanted to do was check it out to see what the new race was like and the new graphics style.And that after waiting 25 seconds for the Flash-based EQ2 Fae page to load just so I could get info on where to download. And that before realizing I can't reup my old account to try something I might have fucking re-upped for because they're hell-bent on only talking to potential new customers rather than someone who's been on and off again with them for seven freakin' years (who's got the higher probably of conversion?).

Look, if it's a trial, give the trial. If I convert up, I'm also so into the game I then don't care about walking away overnight to patch.

So my beef with their system isn't in the tech, it's in the method of use.

Well, the trial sucked even more than that. Even though it spoke to and was directed at new users - and beyond the 4gb patch nonsense - once the trial was up, they didn't point you anywhere to convert over to a paying account.  No link to SOE's digital download, no "enter retail key here".  Just a "Go buy the box!" pop up.

   Hell, I went around LOOKING for EQ2 on sale locally, and couldn't find it because I wanted to try a different MMO for a bit.  Couldn't find the box anywhere, and only found the Fae expansion at Best Buy.   

But that's all different issues.. sorry for the derail.

[Merusk]

The SOE Launch Pad patcher, for example, can download individual files and/or individual patches and patch the files while you are still running the Launch Pad. In fact if you just have Launch Pad and the appropriate control files for a particular game it will happily download everything you need, one file at a time. It's only when Launch Pad itself needs to be patched do you get the restart problem and I can't remember if Launch Pad does it but some of them can even restart themselves so it's totally "hands-free".

I think it depends on how old your launchpad.exe is.  I vaguely remember having LP restart itself a few times, but I know most of the LP updates I've had required a complete restart including re-entering username/ PW.   The upside, however, is that SOE has the common sense to have LP update itself first.. so you get that out of the way and then it patches the game.

LP is far, far, FAR superior to the Blizz method.  Blizz's patching ideas obviously came from people who were used to releasing large patches very very infrequently (hello single player) , so they didn't want to pay for the bandwith & server space required for a LP-type system.   Joke's on them.

[Trippy]

LP is far, far, FAR superior to the Blizz method.  Blizz's patching ideas obviously came from people who were used to releasing large patches very very infrequently (hello single player) , so they didn't want to pay for the bandwith & server space required for a LP-type system.   Joke's on them.

More like the joke's on the people that use Blizzard's patcher allowing Blizzard to leech off their players' bandwidth that they are paying for while Blizzard rolls around in their beds of money.

[Chimpy]

Blizz's patching ideas obviously came from people who were used to releasing large patches very very infrequently (hello single player) are assholes , so they didn't want to pay for the bandwith & server space required for a LP-type system.   Joke's on them.

Blizzard's system is all kinds of broken.

I could never get it to work at full speed because it did not like the firewall setup we had. Good thing was that by the time I got home from work on patch days, filefront had it mirrored.

[Gutboy Barrelhouse]

SOE launchpad is good and with SWG you can also download individual publish files on the tech support page of the official site.

[Hoax]

Speaking of SOE has anyone tried Infantry yet now that it is free through the launchpad?

[Talonus]

Yea, here too. The only issue I have with SOE is the patching just to play the Fae. 4gb final install. FOUR GIGABYTES, 3.17 of which is patched after downloading the comparatively light 83mb initial file.

To be fair, after you've downloaded Play the Fae you don't have to download much more if you decide to activate the game and you can play any of the races. Still, far too big of a download for the relatively small content you're allowed at the time.

The biggest problem with SOE's launchpad is that it has a habit of stalling out on bigger patches, and you'll have to restart to get back up to full speed.

[Righ]

Planetside and SWG: They actually have pretty painless installs now.

I assume that with SW:G, you install the game from the original disk, then when it comes to patching in the NGE, it just deletes 90% of the content?

[schild]

Planetside and SWG: They actually have pretty painless installs now.

I assume that with SW:G, you install the game from the original disk, then when it comes to patching in the NGE, it just deletes 90% of the content?

Since the original game had no content except for mission terminals, you can't really use percentages like "90%" or "1%." More like, you install from the actual disc and it removes 32 boxes from the world.