Why Ultima sucked (was Re: Tabula Rasa back from the dead)

[Zonk]

Maybe they're taking an anti-Vanguard approach?  A quiet launch?  So, that if it falls and stumbles out of the gate, noone really notices, but if it takes off they can ramp up accordingly?

Considering the amount of money they've sunk into the game at this point, I can't imagine they'd want to do a 'quiet' launch. edit: Of course, now that I've said that, and I think of what happened with Auto Assault () ... maybe? Grim, if true.

I feel about 'PVE Planetside' the same way I feel about the combat in Gods and Heroes: Sure, it's interesting and different than the norm, but is that enough to pull people away from whatever traditional MMOG they're playing right now? Is 'squad-based PVE' or 'twitch PVE' really what people want from their Massive game? Getting past the attachment people have to WoW/LOTRO/EQ2 is going to take more than a new combat system, methinks.

The thing that really weirds me out in the 'we haven't heard about it' category is this:

There will be a moral element to the game, like his Ultima titles.

That's from my notes from his talk, and I'd completely forgotten about it until I reread it last night. That was all the detail he gave, so don't shoot the messenger. Wouldn't you think if he was adding this into a Massive game he'd want to talk about it? That seems like a much bigger departure from the norm than twitch-combat.

[schild]

There's not going to be a moral element to the game. TR is a PvE title. Not only that, but a PvE title in which the setting is a war/invasion. That moral element shit is just bs. As much as I'd like there to be one, from everything I've seen, there isn't enough Sandbox OR Freedom for there to be anything moral about the game. Unless he thinks "Save this Puppy" "Yes/No" as a questline is somehow worth calling "moral," well, he's blowing smoke up your ass.

(That wasn't targeted at you Zonk).

[Zonk]

No offense taken, sir. I didn't give the talk. ;)

Indeed, the fact that he stood up in front of a group of people at GDC and said 'moral element' ... you would think ... meant that he was going to follow through.

I tend to agree with the 'smoke up the ass' line of thinking though, in which case we're back to the "What is this game again?" state. The first TR 'beta journal' says absolutely nothing, media says nothing, so we're left to come to our own conclusions. Mebbe if this game is coming out soon we should hear something about it?

[Sir Fodder]

He hasn't ever since the infamous apology statement was released during the Ultima IX debacle. His community manager advised him to stay away from the boards while she stepped up and took the heat (she was later axed in the TR meltdown).

Hrm, I missed that apology. Have a link? Just curious

Sorry no, that was somewhere around the end of '97 on the Origin Ultima IX boards. The boards had become hostile even before release, post release they absolutely exploded due to the major technical problems and "its not Ultima!". My memory is that the community manager issued a statement that appeared on the front page of the boards that more or less acknowledged the clusterfuck, that she had advised Lord British to stay away from the boards to which he had agreed (he was a regular poster before that), and that she would take the heat/funnel feedback. It was a rather heroic move on her part, she did as good a job as possible to quell the peasant uprising, and was one of the better game community managers in my estimation (aside from the "OWOO:O UO2 "Woo Woo!"" boo boo, LOL). Later on she became a designer for TR but was apparently fired (typical corporate equivocation used) during the reorg. I don't know the particulars, but from the outside it seemed unseemly that such a competent and loyal subject would get ceremoniously tossed due to problems that she probably had little or nothing to do with.

If memory serves me, there was also some sort of "apology" issued years before all that for Ultima VIII.

A lot of that history probably has something to do with the clamped-down PR for TR.

I think Garriott was a great solo/small team guy, but when the projects started getting bigger he got in way way over his head. It's probably difficult or impossible for his subjects to speak truth to an out of touch, castle building, "big poofy king".

[CharlieMopps]

Wait wait... isn't the lore for this game how L. Ron Hubbard defended the world from Xenu and the Galactic Confederacy 75 million years ago?

[Signe]

This poor old game should have been vapourware but will be terrible instead.   

[Venkman]

Let's just say it's going to be interesting around here when the NDA drops, considering the links the creator has to all of our earlier days in MMOs :)

[Merusk]

Let's just say it's going to be interesting around here when the NDA drops, considering the links the creator has to all of our earlier days in MMOs :)

Not mine.    But I see your point.

Damn beta-droppers.

[Venkman]

You never played any of the Ultimas? That's what I meant, in the sense that he played a big part in our formative years of RPGing. But reading what I wrote now, it does come off as if I was talking specifically about UO.

[Merusk]

You never played any of the Ultimas? That's what I meant, in the sense that he played a big part in our formative years of RPGing. But reading what I wrote now, it does come off as if I was talking specifically about UO.

We didn't own a computer beyond my dad's Sanyo. You could barely call that thing a word processor, as it didn't even have a hard disk and you needed to boot it up by swapping out varoius  5 1/2" floppies.   My first machine was a 486 I bought for AutoCAD halfway through my 2nd year of College.  So, no, I didn't play any of the Ultimas until years later when I picked up a copy of U7 in a bundle sometime after UO had started already.  I never finished it.   :-D

[Zonk]

You never played any of the Ultimas?

I know you were talking to Merusk, but I will go on record as saying that I too never got a chance to play the Ultimate games back in 'my day'. I unfortunately grew to like RPGs based on JRPGs like Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest. I think the first time I played Baldur's Gate was when I realized these things could be RPGs and also not soul grinding. I may have wept.

As for earlier days in MMOGs, I will admit a fondness for my brief stint in Ultima before I jumped to EverQuest. Somehow, though, I doubt that my primary form of amusement in UO (wandering around peoples' unlocked houses) will be a big part of the gameplay in Tabula Rasa.

[schild]

Pfffft. I'll be honest.

I thought Ultima was trash. Still do. Console RPGs - even starting with the NES with stuff like Dragon Warrior, Scheharezade, Startropics, etc - it was simply light years beyond what was being done on the PC. Ironically, the first PC RPG I could tolerate was all text - Tele-Arena.

[Murgos]

Pfffft. I'll be honest.

I thought Ultima was trash. Still do. Console RPGs - even starting with the NES with stuff like Dragon Warrior, Scheharezade, Startropics, etc - it was simply light years beyond what was being done on the PC. Ironically, the first PC RPG I could tolerate was all text - Tele-Arena.

If not for the Ultima games (of which there were FOUR before the NES even existed) there would have been no RPG's like the ones you mentioned.  So, claims like, "Light years beyond" are kind of stupid.  The Ultima games also were the first ones to really try and make a 'world' for you to explore and inhabit.  Extreme Console Bias aside the Ultima series of CRPG's provided more innovation for mixing story telling with gameplay than any other game until the invention of the cutscene.

Let's not even go into all the other innovations to come out of Garriott's Origin studios that led the way to make games what they are today.

[Venkman]

It's all temporal. The reason I mentioned the Ultimas wasn't to cast a value judgement. It's because of when Ultima III hit. If you weren't burning through your third set of 5.25" floppies within months of the game launching, you're just a kid as far as I'm concerned :)

Just kidding (of course). Everyone who has a love for RPG-like experiences traces their roots back to some point. For me it's Ultima III, largely enhanced by my first MMO being UO (unless you consider D2 MMO enough). I never got into the console RPGs, probably missing out on stuff.

[Falconeer]

Pfffft. I'll be honest.

I thought Ultima was trash. Still do. Console RPGs - even starting with the NES with stuff like Dragon Warrior, Scheharezade, Startropics, etc - it was simply light years beyond what was being done on the PC. Ironically, the first PC RPG I could tolerate was all text - Tele-Arena.

With all due respect, and correct me if I am wrong, but weren't you a bit too young when the Ultimas were hot to have a formed opinion about them?
Or do you mean that TODAY you think they WERE trash? Respectable opinion anyway, it's not like I am not allowed to judge cinema or literature before my age 12. Just trying to get some perspective.

[Hoax]

Never played them.

Dont care.

My first rpg taste was FFIII at a friend from my soccer team's house, watching the airship and a cutscene from that changed my life.  I went over to his house some more, played my own game to the part where you have to fight yourself and not fight to win.  Then dedicated my life to getting my own console somehow.  I would probably be a much better human being had I never seen that.

[Lantyssa]

My first games were the Zork and Wizardry series.

I never tried Ultima until VI, and while I liked the concept of morality, thought it was awfully black and white and poorly implemented.  I also thought the whole person transported from Earth and was now ruler of the land was stupid.  Had I know it was also supposed to be the main developer, extremely egotistical.  And stupid.

[Zonk]

My first games were the Zork and Wizardry series.

Aw man I love those games. Obviously didn't get to them until quite a while after they were released, but *heart*. I eventually played the 'real' Wizardry games on the PC, but Wizardry on the NES was a special kind of treat unto itself. Good times.

If you weren't burning through your third set of 5.25" floppies within months of the game launching, you're just a kid as far as I'm concerned Just kidding (of course). Everyone who has a love for RPG-like experiences traces their roots back to some point. For me it's Ultima III, largely enhanced by my first MMO being UO (unless you consider D2 MMO enough). I never got into the console RPGs, probably missing out on stuff.

Heh. Darniaq, if it makes you feel any older, I was born the year Empire Strikes Back came out. ;)

Console RPGs are their very own kind of awesome. FFVII is nowhere near as unique as everyone says it is, but (for better or worse) it is a seminal moment in Role-Playing Game history. Titles we play today are still being effected by the decisions made by the designers of that title ... so have to give it credit on that front. More recently, Knights of the Old Republic is probably the best console RPG I can point to and say "hey look at how awesome they can be". That may just be BioWare, though. Really ... really ... really looking forward to Mass Effect.

[Venkman]

I think Ultima III/IV "RPG" is very different from KOTOR "RPG". Similar to launch-SWG vs WoW, when I'm playing them, I love both styles of RPG for different reasons. But overall, I prefer the theory of a more open-world RPG than those that provide directed goals through a series of progressive decision trees.

Just as an aside, I realized awhile ago that my first exposure to grinding/farming was in Ultima III- enter Bucc's den, avoid just enough to steal from the chests, leave to let the zone reset, re-enter :)

[schild]

Pfffft. I'll be honest.

I thought Ultima was trash. Still do. Console RPGs - even starting with the NES with stuff like Dragon Warrior, Scheharezade, Startropics, etc - it was simply light years beyond what was being done on the PC. Ironically, the first PC RPG I could tolerate was all text - Tele-Arena.

If not for the Ultima games (of which there were FOUR before the NES even existed) there would have been no RPG's like the ones you mentioned.  So, claims like, "Light years beyond" are kind of stupid.  The Ultima games also were the first ones to really try and make a 'world' for you to explore and inhabit.  Extreme Console Bias aside the Ultima series of CRPG's provided more innovation for mixing story telling with gameplay than any other game until the invention of the cutscene.

Let's not even go into all the other innovations to come out of Garriott's Origin studios that led the way to make games what they are today.

My mistake, when I said light years beyond, I meant fun. The stuff on the NES was fun. Ultima was Work. Innovations don't mean shit to me if I have to trudge through crap gameplay and ugly visuals to see them. On that note, Final Fantasy IV and VI still feel like more "world" than anything with Ultima attached to it ever will.

Now, I'm not saying that Ultima isn't important. I'm just saying that they're entirely overrated and viewed as fun through rose-tinted glasses all across the internet by the generation of gamers slightly older than me. The gamers who are mostly making PC Games these days. The gamers who ARE making our MMORPGs. It is not coincidence that these particular gamers have forgotten what fun is, you can trace it back to Ultima. No one ever said UO was fun, everyone always says UO was fun with other people. There's a reason for that.

[Venkman]

UO and Ultima IV are entirely different beasts.

I can't talk for anyone else, but to me U4 was fun at the time by virtue of a number of factors that don't exist anymore, importantly that uniqueness factor. It wouldn't be as fun for me if it launched today of course. I don't consider it the best game evar!1/1, just an important part of what I did back then.

As for the console stuff, there's a reason most of the games sold in this industry are for consoles. But there's also a reason the most retentive MMOs are "work". Different audiences looking for different things. If they ever made a console game into a workable MMO solution (as in, it had no end, was fun with random other people, etc), maybe that'd be teh winar by attracting the elusive console gamer. But nobody seems to be going that route. Probably because of the reasons you note. So they'll keep cannibalizing the existing playerbase or expanding it by attracting those who didn't realize they had the same preferences.

[Sir Fodder]

I also thought the whole person transported from Earth and was now ruler of the land was stupid.  Had I know it was also supposed to be the main developer, extremely egotistical.  And stupid.

I've always thought that stuff with the blue moongates from Earth to Britannia was inspired and brilliant, but totally agree with the extremely egotistical part. Someone needs to pay a visit to the Shrine of Humility. I'm poor so maybe I'm not very objective, but that kind of conspicuous consumption and pompous flouncery is just disgusting.

[Falconeer]

Well Schild, I need more perspective (if possible). Please tell me which RPGs you consider fun from year zero to 1985 (age of Ultima IV).

Are you underrating a franchise (Ultima) or a whole videogaming era?

As much as you like to think that Dragon Quest was fun (and I agree), go tell that to my son. He will tell you that it is trash, it's work, while the fun RPGs are Kingdom Hearts and Dark Chronicles. Light Years.

[CharlieMopps]

Yea, UO was based on Ultima 7 and Ultima 7.5, the 2 most popular games of the series. And Ultima 7 was NOTHING like the previous games other than the lore.  At the time it was a huge leap forward in gaming engines. I remember that a lot of people (myself included) had to actually have a seperate boot disk to play Ultima7 because it had its own way of using extended memory. The game took up around 95% of my hard-drive space. So basically, all my computer did was play Ultima7.

[schild]

Well Schild, I need more perspective (if possible). Please tell me which RPGs you consider fun from year zero to 1985 (age of Ultima IV).

Are you underrating a franchise (Ultima) or a whole videogaming era?

As much as you like to think that Dragon Quest was fun (and I agree), go tell that to my son. He will tell you that it is trash, it's work, while the fun RPGs are Kingdom Hearts and Dark Chronicles. Light Years.

Considering there's 15-20 years between DQ1 and Kingdom Hearts and only 3-5 years between the Ultima's and the first JRPGs. I'd like to turn your challenge down. DQ1 and the Ultima games that really changed thing came within the same era. The other games you mentioned did not.

Edit: Also, you bring up another point. The vast majority of western style RPGs are crap outside of the glory days of Black Isle, leading up to Obsidian (I'll give Obsidian credit even though I dislike every single game they've made). Other than the odd Bloodlines or whatever else is out there, Western RPGs have largely stagnated compared to Japan. Where the entire nation of gamers loves RPGs, America simply doesn't. We're still stuck with people bitching and moaning about changes in UO, a 10 year old game, here on f13. It's depressing. Meanwhile Asia is kicking our fucking ass all over the place. (And then there's WoW, but this isn't really about WoW).

[WindupAtheist]

The six years between the first Ultima (1980) and the first Dragon Warrior (1986) were hugely important fucking years.  There was barely a game industry back then, and the first couple Ultimas had a development team that consisted of a young Richard Garriot banging away on a computer stowed in his parents walk-in closet and... nobody else.  If you actually do want to compare things from the same era, Ultima V came out in 1988 and makes every pre-SNES console RPG look like a joke.

A warrior type in Ultima V could choose weapon-and-shield, two-handed weapons, dual-wielding, or ranged combat.  Halberds and morning stars were heavy but had more reach than other melee weapons, spiked helmets and shields would let you get in extra attacks, and blunt weapons were better if you had higher strength than dexterity.  Ranged weapons actually had different ranges, and sometimes you would have to do things like move around the battlefield to get a clear shot at something.

Here's the equivalent in your choice of console RPG of the same era:  Buy the most expensive weapon you can afford, equip it, and select FIGHT instead of ITEM or RUN on the combat menu.  Whoop-dee-shit.

[Falconeer]

Meh, I was just trying to show how things can appear differently if you weren't there to test them firsthand.

When you say that the Ultimas, or the pre-console RPGs, were work well you are just wrong. They were FUN when they came out. Not the "there's nothign else" kind of fun. The "real and exciting" kind of fun. Believe it or not, you weren't there. And that is where my son's example is going to lead: he has different things under his eyes, nose and hands to try and to form his opinions and ideas of fun on.
There's no way he can see Dragon Quest's gameplay as anything else but WORK. We both know he's wrong, but there's no way he can see that.

For the records, I only had the chance to play Ultima IV in 1988 and Ultima V in 1989. I tried the first three chapters years later so my opinions are based especially on U4, which is chronologically the closest one to the birth of the console era. In fact, at the same time, circa 1989, I was playing a lot of Ultima IV, Bard's Tale 2, Mars Saga, Wasteland, Pool of Radiance, Dungeon Master (!) AND Phantasy Star 1 and 2. Couldn't see said light years anywhere between those games.

EDIT: Oh, and Autoduel.

[CmdrSlack]

Autoduel kicked ass.

If only AA had been more like Autoduel and less like a shittacular MMO.

[Murgos]

Western RPGs have largely stagnated compared to Japan.

From a 'Growth of the Genre into new homes' perspective, maybe.  From a "Evolved and Explored New Facets of Gameplay' stance?  Not even close.

The same mechanics used in FFVII (and to a large extent FFIII) are still the ones in use today.  Be led by the nose from area to area, grind out kills, repeat ad infinitum and the only thing FFVII added to that mix was the socketing customization and mini-games, everything else was well entrenched long before that.

[Falconeer]

Let alone FF12 mimicking the dreaded autoattack of MMORPGs. Damn fools.

[schild]

Whoa. Whoa. If MMORPGs were as streamlined as the FF12 autoattack system, I might actually play them.

[Lantyssa]

I've always thought that stuff with the blue moongates from Earth to Britannia was inspired and brilliant, but totally agree with the extremely egotistical part. Someone needs to pay a visit to the Shrine of Humility. I'm poor so maybe I'm not very objective, but that kind of conspicuous consumption and pompous flouncery is just disgusting.

He's lucky everyone knew how to swim with that Titanic stunt.  I'd have strangled him myself had my dad been present.

[Venkman]

Schild, I know this is like your place and stuff, but considering your well advertised hate against PC games and MMORPGs in particular, why do you post in the MMOG Discussion forum at all? 

[SnakeCharmer]

So is this game FUN or what?

[sam, an eggplant]

There really is no relation whatsoever between the classic singleplayer ultimas and ultima online. They're fundamentally different experiences in every respect. I didn't much care for UO and yet I consider ultima7 to be the best game ever made. It was fun back then and I assure you it was fun when I replayed it last year.

That doesn't mean Garriot can do no wrong. He hasn't made a good game in the past 15 years. I cut him no slack.