Why Ultima sucked (was Re: Tabula Rasa back from the dead)

[schild]

Schild, I know this is like your place and stuff, but considering your well advertised hate against PC games and MMORPGs in particular, why do you post in the MMOG Discussion forum at all? 

I don't hate MMORPGs or PC Games. I hate bad games. MMORPGs are nothing more than a chat room with a grind. Someday, someone will make something better. Unfortunately, that'll involve narrative and throw the MMOG part out the window since you'll be interested in a story. Basically, Diku isn't it. But that's not the conversation you wanted.

I like good games and give more credit where it's deserved than most of the other gamers around these parts. But the pendulum swings both ways.

[hal]

In fairness guy different people like different things. I find MMORPGs very compelling. Single player games much less so though I buy them, it is just not where the hours go. Your not wrong and I am not right and vice a virtue just we have different tastes. WOW and LOTRO are well crafted games.  EQ2 can be fun. These are good games in the MMORPG space. If you don't like them then you do not like the current generation of MMORPGs and that is fine. Do not discount the media just because it does not suit you.

[Venkman]

So is this game FUN or what?

Yes. But I suspect that's not the real question. I think you want to know if it's engaging, by being both momentarily fun and providing for repeat playability. Those are harder to answer without violating the NDA.

I hate bad games. MMORPGs are nothing more than a chat room with a grind.

Not for this thread, but we'd need a common frame of reference to have a real debate about this. MMORPGs are not DIKUs. Only DIKU-inspired MMORPGs are. Sophestry maybe, but there's a good percentage of the world not playing DIKU-inspired MMORPGs. It just depends on how you split MMOG from MMORPG, and whether your preferred need for "RP" is being met.

[Trippy]

No NDA breaking please.

[trias_e]

Unfortunately, that'll involve narrative and throw the MMOG part out the window since you'll be interested in a story

Is this as ridiculous as I'm reading it?  Or is it just a badly worded bash at current MMOGs (acceptable).

[schild]

Badly worded bash.

It still makes sense in my head, but I can see where a problem with the wording could arise.

[WindupAtheist]

Badly worded bash.

It still makes sense in my head, but I can see where a problem with the wording could arise.

It's okay.  My brain started interpreting your words as dolphin squawks to protect my sanity after your "Ultima games sucked, STARTROPICS NOW THERE WAS AN RPG!" post.

[Signe]

Do you know that dolphins in Wales make noises completely different than dolphins any place else in the world just like Welsh people?

[Slayerik]

Ultima's kicked ass. Ultima 7 was an awesome game. Nothing like scoring some of that shiny blue magic shit.

Hoe of Destruction FTW.

[Sky]

Yeah, I don't the Ultima hate. I played 4, 5, 7, 7.5, 8 and unfortunately 9. 9 could've been good, but wasn't. 8 caught a lot of shit, but once they patched out the awful jumping system, I liked it alot. I missed 6 due to being on the road and poor. 4,5,7 and 7.5 were total splendiforousness.

Then again, I don't get the jrpg love. Every one I've seen has been garbage.

It's called different tastes and opinions, with a healthy serving of the lolinternet.

[WayAbvPar]

Badly worded bash.

It still makes sense in my head, but I can see where a problem with the wording could arise.

It's okay.  My brain started interpreting your words as dolphin squawks to protect my sanity after your "Ultima games sucked, STARTROPICS NOW THERE WAS AN RPG!" post.

Yeah, my brain pretty much melted down at about the same point. I might have to fly to Phoenix and give Schild the Clockwork Orange treatment to help with his console obssession. Or at least kick him in the nuts for all the old school Ultima lovers out there.

RPGs do not belong on consoles. Stupid menu-driven crap. ARRGHRHGHSDGHDHGDHZG.

[schild]

RPGs do not belong on consoles. Stupid menu-driven crap. ARRGHRHGHSDGHDHGDHZG.

That's loltastic.

Go take 2 doses of Shadow Hearts and a side of Digital Devil Saga and call me back in the morning.

[Falconeer]

RPGs do not belong on consoles. Stupid menu-driven crap. ARRGHRHGHSDGHDHGDHZG.

That's loltastic.

Go take 2 doses of Shadow Hearts and a side of Digital Devil Saga and call me back in the morning.

Touché, as those are two of my favourite JRPG ever.
Still, the Ultimas (most of them) ruled.

[sam, an eggplant]

They absolutely belong on consoles. I believe the disconnect here is that JRPGs and western CRPGs are entirely different experiences, and liking one doesn't mean that you'll like the other. JRPGs are really more like traditional adventure games with RPG trappings. I like JRPGs, but I love CRPGs.

[Sir Fodder]

I can sort of understand the sentiment regarding old CRPGs being work; a few years back I looked at some of my old Ultima stuff and was amazed at the amount of notes and maps I had made on scraps of paper. Don't think I'd like to do that nowadays (mainly due to time required, but also tedium), but back then it was incredibly fun. Its hard for me to form much in the way of cogent thoughts on the subject though, work for me really is fun, seems like it's the other crap (physical pain or a feeling of futility or purposelessness mostly, maybe?) that can get mixed into work that is the unfun part.

That TR rep's quote about them not having instituted some basic game dynamics (death penalty) at this point seems odd and eerily reminiscent of some past debacles. Have they announced a release timeframe yet?

[Venkman]

Fall 2007 according to the PC Gamer release meter.

As to old RPGs being work, yea, I agree. I made more notes to get through Ultima V than I ever did for UO or EQ1. We call that "bad UI" today, or "niche", or some other unfortunate variant on the idea that nowadays having games where people need to figure shit out is a bad thing.

[Merusk]

The lack of death penalty info isn't so bad.  Unless it's some byzantine system where you're supposed to fight your way back from hell, it should be easy enough to code-in damage on death, or xp penalty, or whatever.  WoW didn't have its death penalty in place until a few weeks before the open beta, for example.

Much more distressing is the lack of 'other stuff'.. but I'm beginning to harp on that point.

[WindupAtheist]

They could make the greatest JRPG ever and I wouldn't even know it at this point.  The genre has been spewing pure Gay for so long that I've long since quit paying attention.  Shadow Devil Digi-what?  Is that the one with male protagonists way less masculine than the average WNBA player?  Or the one where Mickey Mouse and Daffy Duck team up with Cloud to fight Sephiroth and the wicked witch of the west with the power of children's happiness?

Probably not, but damned if I know.

[schild]

Dude. Shadowhearts 1 opens in a fucking cannibal village with evil children... after some CRAZY SHIT happens on a train.

Shadow Hearts Opening.

[Murgos]

Is that the one with male protagonists way less masculine than the average WNBA player?

Too be fair there are pro-wrestlers that are less masculine than the average WNBA player... even the ones that aren't nappy headed.

[schild]

Is that the one with male protagonists way less masculine than the average WNBA player?

Too be fair there are pro-wrestlers that are less masculine than the average WNBA player... even the ones that aren't nappy headed.

(Thundercats) Ho(oooooooo)!

[WayAbvPar]

They could make the greatest JRPG ever and I wouldn't even know it at this point.  The genre has been spewing pure Gay for so long that I've long since quit paying attention.  Shadow Devil Digi-what?  Is that the one with male protagonists way less masculine than the average WNBA player?  Or the one where Mickey Mouse and Daffy Duck team up with Cloud to fight Sephiroth and the wicked witch of the west with the power of children's happiness?

Probably not, but damned if I know.

[HaemishM]

Is that the one with male protagonists way less masculine than the average WNBA player?

Too be fair there are pro-wrestlers that are less masculine than the average WNBA player... even the ones that aren't nappy headed.

(Thundercats) Ho(oooooooo)!

That's ThunderCUNTS, goddamnit.

[schild]

Is that the one with male protagonists way less masculine than the average WNBA player?

Too be fair there are pro-wrestlers that are less masculine than the average WNBA player... even the ones that aren't nappy headed.

(Thundercats) Ho(oooooooo)!

That's ThunderCUNTS, goddamnit.

Not when you're making fun of the media it isn't.

[Sky]

That's it, I demand the immediate resignation of Haemish from his non-existant post on behalf of Thundercats everywhere.

[HaemishM]

Snarf, bitches.

[WindupAtheist]

Western RPGs have largely stagnated compared to Japan.

On the contrary, up until at least 1997, JRPG design was incredibly stagnant.  Core gameplay concepts left over from the early eighties were dolled up in pretty graphics, cutscenes, and minigames, and tossed out there to an uncritical audience over and over again.

I say 1997 because that's the release year of the last JRPG I played, namely Final Fantasy 7.  I greatly doubt that a sudden wave of creativity swept over the genre the moment I quit paying attention, but nevertheless, I won't try to comment beyond my experience.

So, Final Fantasy 7.

Party of characters represented by a single figure during non-combat gameplay?  Check.  Separate combat screen where the other party members suddenly appear to fight?  Check.  Separate city zones, accessed by moving your character over a miniature city on the overworld map?  Check.  Townsfolk who don't do much of anything besides sit in their designated spot and say one designated blurb of dialog when prompted?  Check.

Wait a minute, I'm not describing FF7, I'm describing Ultima 3, and that came out fourteen fucking years earlier.

Ultima 4 added a conversation system to give townsfolk some interactivity.  Ultima 5 gave them schedules to follow.  Both of these allowed for new types of puzzles to be added, and the day/night cycle introduced in U5 was a nice way to select how much overland spawn you wanted to deal with while traveling, since the monsters mostly came out at night.  Mostly.

Ultima 6 went whole hog and threw out the separate city/combat screens entirely.  Cities simply existed as part of the world, all party members were visible at all times, and combat simply happened where it happened.  This was back in 1990, and the game was eventually ported to everything from the SNES to the Commodore 64.

But there I am playing Final Fantasy 7 on a PS1 in 1997, and I'm still trucking my party around the overland map as a single character, going to the combat screen for random battles, and entering cities by walking into their little icons.  It's 1983 all over again.

But OMFG did you see Aeris get stabbed in that cutscene?  Man those graphics were nice at the time.  And chocobo racing was fun, right?

Whoop.  Dee.  Shit.

[schild]

No one ever claimed Final Fantasy 7 was innovative outside of the graphics. Anyone that did was a fool.

But! Final Fantasy 7 was bigger than any Ultima could ever hope to be. Still not innovative though.

And I know I can't bring things like Deception, the Megaten series, Live A Live, Y's, or Fire Emblem into the topic. Mostly because there isn't a frosty mug's chance in hell you've spent enough time with any of them to offer any sort of argument. Which is a shame.

On a side note, JRPG needs to be properly defined since they were doing hybrids long before America was. Whatwith Zelda 2 and Simon's Quest.

[Falconeer]

mostly came out at night.  Mostly.

Sweet reference.

[Slayerik]

And I know I can't bring things like Deception, the Megaten series, Live A Live, Y's, or Fire Emblem into the topic. Mostly because there isn't a frosty mug's chance in hell you've spent enough time with any of them to offer any sort of argument. Which is a shame.

Yeah, WUA AND 99.9% of North America.

[schild]

And I know I can't bring things like Deception, the Megaten series, Live A Live, Y's, or Fire Emblem into the topic. Mostly because there isn't a frosty mug's chance in hell you've spent enough time with any of them to offer any sort of argument. Which is a shame.

Yeah, WUA AND 99.9% of North America.

119.9 Million PS2 owners have never played Ultima. So.... what's your point?

[Yegolev]

Ultima is crap today.

I expect the next few years will bring some wonderful FFXII knockoffs from Japan.  I expect nothing in the Western RPG scene other than Dungeon Lords Part Deux, The Elder Scrolls V: Even Less Game, and Fable 2: Electric Molyneux.

[schild]

Wow. That Fable 2 joke works great when you know how to pronounce his name.

[Falconeer]

Crap how?

And which Ultima is crap?

What's your meter?

I can safely say that U4, U5 and U7 are great great games, but given that you don't like 'em, I'd love to hear which (J)(C)(?)RPGs d'you think are better than the said Ultimas, and most important of all WHY.

Why the "Ultima is crap" line sounds so much just like a flamebait?

[Slayerik]

Ultima is crap today.

The key here is TODAY (even though I would disagree).

Ultima was revolutionary, innovative, and fun. Hell, part of what made UO so great to me was me and my brother used to say about Ultima 7 ... "Now how cool would it be to be able to play this with hundreds of other people." Very rare when your hopes come true.