Vanguard chatter

[Tale]

VG might not be complete crap now, though. Perhaps it's a comeback kid?

Not yet. The general chatter on in-game public channels is that the game is still full of broken things. There's a certain amount of "LOL guess which bug just happened". And whines answered with "you're playing Vanguard, what do you expect?".

The live team responsible for the game is said to be very small, so not much really changes. There's one endgame raiding dungeon, only just introduced. The oldschool players hate the idea of the riftway (very SOE public teleport travel system described above). It's said to be a mostly solo game until higher levels now - "Vanguard: Saga of Soloing" somebody said.

I had a suspicion the newbie area I'd played was not new, but didn't know for sure. They are apparently planning a newbie island to replace all the newbie zones to try and hook more people into the game.

Anyway, I'll get my $29.95 worth.

[Cadaverine]

So basically, they're turning it into EQ2?   Just real slow like.

[Nebu]

So basically, they're turning it into EQ2?   Just real slow like.

Put Hartsman on Vanguard and it may actually be worthwhile in a year or two.

[Grand Design]

So basically, they're turning it into EQ2?   Just real slow like.

Tale's post almost made me interested in Vanguard again.  Almost - I really did have a place in my heart for VG.  And then I read the words 'Newbie Isle' and any interest immediately evaporated.

[Lantyssa]

Put Hartsman on Vanguard and it may actually be worthwhile in a year or two.

Unfortunately he left SOE several months ago.

[Yegolev]

The Newbie Island was the worst part of EQ2 for me.  Cramped and with a known quest bug.  Might be a good addition to Vanguard, though I just can't see it.  What's wrong with separate starting areas?

[Mrbloodworth]

The Newbie Island was the worst part of EQ2 for me.  Cramped and with a known quest bug.  Might be a good addition to Vanguard, though I just can't see it.  What's wrong with separate starting areas?

Its easer to segregate the island into a trial.

[Yegolev]

Yea so let me bypass that by skipping the trial. If I could skip the EQ2 isle by signing up for a real account, I'd do that.

[Snee]

There was a game (Ryzom?) that had a very modular spell system, in fact they applied it to the weapon swinging, prospecting and harvesting systems, as well. Thought it was absolutely brilliant.

The game was SUPERgrindy, for unrelated (unrestricted character development) reasons, so I only stayed with it a few months, but I LOVED the optimization metagame for whatever you were trying to fight/find.

If ever a MMO does it again I am all over it.

I play vanguard, but I've never tried a bard, as they are considered vaguely munchkin. But now I gotta.

Thanks for your hard work.

Wow. That actually sounds neat. I wouldn't mind playing a game with systems like that.

I did the coding for the bard songs in Vanguard.  It's probably the system I'm most proud of having coded.  I think ability construction of this nature is a great concept I'd love to see more of in games.  Being able to create your own custom spells is really quite a bit of fun.  You might think that at max level, every bard would end up playing the same songs, however that's not the case at all.  Beyond the different strategies related to what you want to do (various buffs or debuffs, melee, ranged, or caster dps, etc) energy regeneration plays a significant role.  Each bard song component has an energy cost associated with it, and generally you end up using multiple "rests" that return energy to decrease the cost.  However, with appropriate buffs and specialized equipment, you can significantly reduce the number of rests you need, allowing you to use those slots for additional effective components. 

What I hope to see in a "next-gen" fantasy mmo is a magic system along these lines.  Let me tweak things like the mana cost and cast times of my abilities to better suit my playstyle.  I wouldn't say people should have to put everything together (which may be one of the flaws in the Vanguard system - all you got automatically created for you was a single level 1 song)...  Give out fireball.  For people interested let them break it apart into the components (say, things like "medium cast time", "sphere projectile", "fire damage", "medium mana cost") and mix and match their other components to create new spells.

[Mrbloodworth]

There was a game (Ryzom?) that had a very modular spell system, in fact they applied it to the weapon swinging, prospecting and harvesting systems, as well. Thought it was absolutely brilliant.

The game was SUPERgrindy, for unrelated (unrestricted character development) reasons, so I only stayed with it a few months, but I LOVED the optimization metagame for whatever you were trying to fight/find.

If ever a MMO does it again I am all over it.

Yes, Ryzom. You could create spells, attacks, armors , just about everything. Cookie cutters be dammed.


Freedom.

Customized Actions and Stanzas

Modular Action System - The Saga of Ryzom combines every action you can do within the world into one unified game mechanic, called the Modular Action System. This system holds special combat manoeuvres, spells, material prospecting and harvesting, and even crafting.

Stanzas - Each individual Action is made up of a number of subcomponents, which are called Stanzas. These Stanzas each have different abilities and costs associated with them, and once you learn them, you can combine them into your own custom actions.

New Stanzas are learned by receiving training in different skills. For example, in the case of magic, you start with only one basic offensive magic spell, Acid Damage 1. After advancing a bit, you can learn Life Gift 1, which gives you additional Stanzas. The actual Stanzas for each of these spells are below:
'Acid Damage 1'
   'Life Gift 1'


By using the Modular Action System, you can then create your own custom spell, naming it whatever you would like:
'Free Acid Bolt'


Although it may not be very powerful, and has a serious range penalty, it does have the advantage of being completely free to cast. This makes it great in situations when you are already in close and don't need that extra range.

Of course, this example used only two different spell abilities. The more actions you are trained in, the more Stanzas you have access to, and the more possibilities there are to create ones perfectly suited to your play style.

God, yet another game that got so many things right.

[Murgos]

Yea so let me bypass that by skipping the trial. If I could skip the EQ2 isle by signing up for a real account, I'd do that.

Eh?  You've been able to start in Kelethin for years and Neriak for several months now.

[Lantyssa]

I really liked Darklight woods, too.  It was a good area for me to learn the game.

[shiznitz]

There are not that many newbie areas in VG. I think an Isle approach would be a mistake and require a lot of content from scratch which is a lot to ask of the tiny VG live team. Easier and better to "newbie-ize" the starting areas more. Newbies want to feel like part of the real game as early on as possible anyway.  Sounds like Kojan is pretty good already, too.

[Cadaverine]

Biggest problem I had with the newbie areas is that there really aren't any newbies.  And while soloing is good up to a point, it begins to suck ass after around level 20 or so, as your gear starts to lag behind, since getting into groups to do the dungeons is problematic.

Granted that was some 4-6 months ago, so perhaps oodles of people have joined the game in the interim, and the lack of a low-mid level population is not as bad.

[Grand Design]

My problem with 'newbie areas' is that it is symptomatic of a larger problem with modern fantasy mmos.  They lack fantasy.  Every experience has been prefabricated.  I preferred having a sense of mystery and learning, rather than being spoon fed how to play the game.  I liked to have some room to do something wrong, make mistakes and perhaps, in the process, do something right.  Vanguard attempted to return to some of those older ideas, at least.  The introduction of newbie areas, fast travel etc. does not distinguish the game, it further makes it indistinguishable from the other two.

*Yes, I realize that I am a dinosaur, in the minority opinion on this and the spectacular failure of VG is evidence of that. 

[Yegolev]

Yea so let me bypass that by skipping the trial. If I could skip the EQ2 isle by signing up for a real account, I'd do that.

Eh?  You've been able to start in Kelethin for years and Neriak for several months now.

Obviously I was doing it wrong.  I'll keep that in mind since I seem to be falling off the MOG-wagon.

[Venkman]

Biggest problem I had with the newbie areas is that there really aren't any newbies. 

That's the problem with all level-based games. Eventually you run out of attracting new people and end up mostly servicing alts. And then you start tuning your game to ensure soloability through X levels. And over time it's been proven this method actually works.

These games are always about pushing outwards and onwards. Realistically though no game is ever going to attract as many people as it has leveling up. So eventually the early zones clear out as people move on.

Social mudflation 

[Kageru]

The Orc and Goblin starting area is also very good. Well paced, has a story and customised content to support it. Since that's part of the same continent as Kojan maybe its indicative of a different designer / team working on that area? Certainly the various starting points on the other two continents I tried didn't even come close. Though even the Kojan area played up the lao-jin and Ra-jin angles like you had a choice but never went anywhere with it.

I recently let my Vanguard subscription lapse partly because it wasn't that fun in the mid-game and because the game simply has no momentum.

[Tale]

The Orc and Goblin starting area is also very good. Well paced, has a story and customised content to support it. Since that's part of the same continent as Kojan maybe its indicative of a different designer / team working on that area? Certainly the various starting points on the other two continents I tried didn't even come close. Though even the Kojan area played up the lao-jin and Ra-jin angles like you had a choice but never went anywhere with it.

From my beta memories, I think it was the final continent implemented. Beta testers had found some of the earlier newbie areas boring, confusing and laggy. It was so off-putting that every time they invited thousands of new beta testers, the server population would run high for a few days, then sink to only a couple of hundred testers online.

By the time of Kojan, the team was trying to do a better job with the newbie experience. There's probably an advantage in the continent being a series of islands - it stops newbies running off and getting lost as happened on the large landmasses.

[Nerf]

I've got a level 38 or so ranger I'm never going to use, if someone wants the account just shoot me a PM and i'll toss ya the info

[rk47]

  i would but the 20gb client download is a no-go for me.

[CharlieMopps]

Actually what Vanguard needs is to be more like EQ. Those are the people that are going to like the game anyway.

The real problem with VG right now is that there are VAST swaths of unused map in the game. I had that flying reindeer before I quit and I could fly for a fairly long ways and not see a single mob, npc or structure. Just open swaths of nothing but trees or mountains. Then you find yourself wandering around looking for something to do... and of course, when you do find it, it's some level 45 mobs that 1 hits you.